The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)

[DougDew]

20 minutes ago, bleevit said:

Well, apparently the slightly more than average knowledge of these Forum posters recognize that Grigson is the greater problem.  The coaches all have exhibited success at this and other jobs. Grigson has exhibited poor results in both the draft and free agency. If I were in Irsay's shoes, I'd be a little upset about how my money had been spent. When you get Bjorn, Trent, and apparently brittle wideout with your first round picks, you're in trouble regardless of the coach. Having watched years and years of pre-Manning failures, I would hate to go back to a situation where we continue with this GM. Most people believe teams are made from the inside out with solid fronts on both sides of the ball. Constantly trying to "coach up" mediocre players and having no line depth is getting old.

Thanks Bob.

 

The Cowboys QB got hurt twice and they are about to finish no better than 5-11 despite playing in the NFC East and despite drafting about 4 Olinemen in the first rounds.   Miami and Pittsburgh drafted brittle Centers with their first round picks in the past.  OTOH, The Pats are 14-2 with 3 rookies on the oline, and no investment higher than a 3rd round pick except for LT. 

 

The definition of knowledge is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

[Colts_Fan12]

Grigson cause if we hire a new GM he will want his own HC so I still get what I really want and that's both gone 

[Rally5]

14 minutes ago, BOTT said:

That first sentence isn't true.

It's pretty accurate.  There were flirtations with .500 seasons but through the late 70's, 80's and early 90's the Colts rivaled only Tampa in ineptitude.  There was 20 years 1978-1998 where the colts couldn't muster a double digit win season. So, many of us remember those days.  Our ring of fame includes a QB that only played 3 seasons because we actually went to the playoffs and made a run....once.  Then came Polian, so that's my perspective.  Manning or Leaf, James or Williams....Irsay went radio silent and we won and won big.  So I guess it's perspective.  The last four years, successful?  I'm ok with that, I've enjoyed the Luck era.  I very not ok with front office drama, fractured leadership = fractured team = Not Good.  My response is largely around the article the hit the site and the seeming lack of wanting to hold Irsay accountable as well.

[NorthernBlue]

So pretty much everyone wants grigson gone.........yet he's more likely to stay.........

[Rally5]

24 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I do and I don't think it has anything to do with what's going on.  He made a poor hiring decision.  One that i expect him to correct in the coming weeks.

Soft on Irsay...;)  That's cool.  Happy New Year.

[TD]

My concerns are a bit different than most posting here, but we arrive at the same conclusion.  Grigson needs to go for at least 5 reasons that most all of you have noted.  Pagano, well I think he is a better Coach without a GM that thinks he's both GM & Coach.  I don't buy Pagano is weak, but I do buy that he had to deal with the uncertainties that Grigson force upon him, and maybe he didn't do that job as well as he should have.  But, he's here to coach and not walk through the GM's minefield just because the GM decided to make one.

The issue that concerns me more is will Luck just decide to opt out of another Colt's contract because his life here is going to be limited without protection for the O line.  Hey I'm not condemning our line, a lot of effort from some people with limited talent that did their best under some tough circumstances that included injuries and a GM that didn't really put together a good O line in the first place.   I hope Irsay sees what needs to be done and I'm sure he too will do his best.

 

[Dustin]

Wow

[TheRustonRifle#7]

A quick question? I am unaware that Grigson's 5th year option was picked up? If this is the case, then he would be gone after Sunday's game regardless, correct? The reason I ask this is that there is so much misinformation out there, ie: "The Colts will fire Pagano."....unless they do that prior to Sunday's game it won't happen as his contract runs out? It makes no sense...so if Grig's hasn't had his option picked up, he should be on his way out as well?

[OffensivelyPC]

17 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

Two rookies in new roles apparently needed more guidance or they (Grigson really) ignored his guidance/instruction which is insubordination.  Grigson and Pagano need coaching just like anyone else.  I find it hard to believe they blew off Irsay's guidance, I'm more inclined to believe Irsay wasn't as involved as he needed to be.  Is this supposition on my part...of course, but the evidence is the body of work this front office has presented to us.  Someone has to be accountable and it starts at the top not the bottom.

 

These are two guys who are experienced in their fields, just new roles. There's nothing that Irsay can coach them on in that regard. You wouldnt want a CEO telling the General Coundel what the law is. But the real propblem here is philosophical differences in the roles of two positions, each wanting it's own idea of responsibilities they think are associated with their titles. And we weren't there on the interviews and private meetings, so it's impossible to say who was overstepping boundaries or not.  If Irsay failed at all, he failed to step in and either clarify the responsibilities or get the two to set aside their differences for the benefit of the team... or both. And that last one might have with been beyond reconciliation ot impossible to begin with. 

[BOTT]

14 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Thanks Bob.

 

The Cowboys QB got hurt twice and they are about to finish no better than 5-11 despite playing in the NFC East and despite drafting about 4 Olinemen in the first rounds.   Miami and Pittsburgh drafted brittle Centers with their first round picks in the past.  OTOH, The Pats are 14-2 with 3 rookies on the oline, and no investment higher than a 3rd round pick except for LT. 

 

The definition of knowledge is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

You act as though Romo has been taking a beating and that's the reason he got hurt.  He got hit and was injured.....that could happen to anyone.

[ColtRider]

5 minutes ago, Dustin said:

Wow

 

Yep. WOW!

[Rally5]

1 minute ago, OffensivelyPC said:

These are two guys who are experienced in their fields, just new roles. There's nothing that Irsay can coach them on in that regard. You wouldnt want a CEO telling the General Coundel what the law is. But the real propblem here is philosophical differences in the roles of two positions, each wanting it's own idea of responsibilities they think are associated with their titles. And we weren't there on the interviews and private meetings, so it's impossible to say who was overstepping boundaries or not.  If Irsay failed at all, he failed to step in and either clarify the responsibilities or get the two to set aside their differences for the benefit of the team... or both. And that last one might have with been beyond reconciliation ot impossible to begin with. 

I'm sure you know Jim was our GM once upon a time right?  So yes he does know how to coach them...

Then as an executive/Owner you definately coach people on your culture and how to conduct business.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

18 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Thanks Bob.

 

The Cowboys QB got hurt twice and they are about to finish no better than 5-11 despite playing in the NFC East and despite drafting about 4 Olinemen in the first rounds.   Miami and Pittsburgh drafted brittle Centers with their first round picks in the past.  OTOH, The Pats are 14-2 with 3 rookies on the oline, and no investment higher than a 3rd round pick except for LT. 

 

The definition of knowledge is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

That just could mean that the Pats let the Coach do his job

[Swan Ronson]

Players really shouldn't be airing their dirty linen in public like that.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Wow. So the players, the media and the fans want him gone. What to do, Irsay, what to do.....

[GhostofJohnnyU]

Would love to see a video of that.

 

This just shows how deep the problem is.  If players are willing to publicly call out their GM, they must be either pretty secure they can get another job if necessary.  I figure Pat is.  

 

 

[Clem-Dog]

I wonder if this has to do with Griff's release today?  

[colts8718]

The dark forces are all around us

[DougDew]

16 minutes ago, peytonmanning18 said:

 

Mid you're saying that people should stop letting what a football team does affect their daily lives then yes I agree with you.

Its more about the nature of the comments here.  How folks express their dislike for one or the other...or both.

 

Most of the more severe comments and borderline personal ones tend to be critical of Grigson.  I've never met the man, and have seen or heard him speak far less than I have with Pagano, so I am unable to judge.

 

But others seem to be able to make their own judgement about his personality, based upon what they read.  I tend to not form those extreme opinions based upon reading about others' observations, so the way in which the comments are formed is kind of surprising to me. 

 

And I see more of the typical comments about Irsay popping up again.  Sheez, at worst we're 7-9.  It happens to good organizations sometimes.

[GhostofJohnnyU]

This was pretty easy for me.  I'm kinda on the fence with Pagano.  He makes some strange decisions at times, and clock management is suspect (being kind here).

 

But Grigson has had long term negative impact on this organization.  He needs to go.

[DougDew]

15 minutes ago, FanFromtheWasteland said:

That just could mean that the Pats let the Coach do his job

Yes, it could mean that, and several other things. 

 

[DougDew]

22 minutes ago, BOTT said:

You act as though Romo has been taking a beating and that's the reason he got hurt.  He got hit and was injured.....that could happen to anyone.

I don't want to rehash old information, but there has been plenty of discussions about holding the ball too long, WR route trees, overall offensive strategy.  Those issues are more related to coaching than they are being forced to play one UDFA center over another UDFA Center.

 

Which sounds like an excuse now that I read what I just wrote.

[Superman]

35 minutes ago, TheRustonRifle#7 said:

A quick question? I am unaware that Grigson's 5th year option was picked up? If this is the case, then he would be gone after Sunday's game regardless, correct? The reason I ask this is that there is so much misinformation out there, ie: "The Colts will fire Pagano."....unless they do that prior to Sunday's game it won't happen as his contract runs out? It makes no sense...so if Grig's hasn't had his option picked up, he should be on his way out as well?

 

Several people have reported that the Colts picked up Grigson's option. 

[TheRustonRifle#7]

Just now, Superman said:

 

Several people have reported that the Colts picked up Grigson's option. 

Ok, I wasn't sure if they had or not? I even Googled it but found nothing that actually said they picked it up? I'll take your word for it and thank you for clarifying.

[Buck Showalter]

1 hour ago, Rally5 said:

C'mon man, no need to air the mans dirty laundry.  It's well documented.

LOL...thats exactly what you are insinuating...

[Superman]

2 hours ago, pacolts56 said:

Isn't it interesting to recall Polian's dismissal and Irsay's "I want my team back" comment....and then fast-forwarding to this f$#+&ing mess we have now?

 

Polian, even with his dictatorial quirks,  was an established and accomplished executive and still managed to make it work successfully with the temperamentally polar opposite Tony Dungy.

 

Grigson has no such credentials as a GM....and it reinforces my belief that pairing a 1st time GM with a 1st time Head Coach....and evidently NOT setting clear GM/HC parameters is where Irsay went wrong.

 

Grigson and Pagano have clearly made their fair share of well-discussed unforced errors in their respective roles. And hitting some of those potholes is normal for any team. With two guys in the big chair for the first time....you're gonna have that.

 

But allowing this situation to fester and wallowing in this kind of f$%&ing nonsense, if it IS true....lies squarely at the feet of Jimmy Irsay.

 

Irsay is a good owner but he can't have it both ways by lamenting the strongman VP Polian's overreaching control and subsequently firing him....and then allowing an unproven tenderfoot like Grigson to pull this alledged meddling crap without stepping in and BEHIND CLOSED DOORS....straightening both Grigson and Pagano out before it all goes to hell.

 

But sure enough, it appears that Irsay has allowed the management/coaching culture to rot.

 

IMO....an experienced GM and HC tandem that have working history is the best outcome....if there is even one to be found.

 

 

I don't think Irsay said 'I wanted my team back.' Pat Bowlen said that when he fired Mike Shanahan. I've thought that Irsay felt that way about the Polian decision, but I don't think he ever actually said that.

 

And since I'm theorizing, I think Irsay's absence and suspension in 2014 may have contributed to Grigson's power grab, assuming this is all true.

[bluebombers87]

9 hours ago, Dustin said:

 

If a coach throws a challenge flag to "backup a player" he should be fired on the spot.

IF it is iffy, meaning you aren't sure and it could go either way and you got a player in your ear saying things like "I know it, etc." then yea a coach can show support of a player. Now if this player does it all the time and is crying wolf then don't do it.

[bluebombers87]

4 hours ago, BOTT said:

Players will come to Indy for money and Andrew Luck.

 

Sometimes the situation calls for insubordination.

 

Nobody ever said Pagano should have ran to the press and aired the Colts dirty laundry.

Players won't care who the coach is? Players don't take a paycut and go to New England so they can work with Tom Brady? Coaches matter. I think you're talking about the Colts specifically and I'm talking more in general.

 

Insubordination is not advantageous to keeping your job. If the GM is handicapping you then the owner should be asking the GM some tough questions if he's seeing some questionable players acquisitions or failings.

 

And yet again we know that at some point Pagano did challenge Grigson or at least disagreed with him on something as the rumors imply there was tension. And I never said that you or anyone else thought he should call Grigson out. I was merely saying that we dont know what was happening behind the closed doors. Part of that is Pagano keeping it in house like he should.

[TD]

18 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Several people have reported that the Colts picked up Grigson's option. 

Well if it's true that Grigson's contract is already picked up then Irsay has spoken.  If I'm Luck I'm going to start my agent in conversing with teams committed to an Offensive line.  If I'm Pagano I'm already talking to the management of my next stop.  I didn't know Grigson was a done deal.  Sad Day

[Superman]

Just now, TD said:

Well if it's true that Grigson's contract is already picked up then Irsay has spoken.  If I'm Luck I'm going to start my agent in conversing with teams committed to an Offensive line.  If I'm Pagano I'm already talking to the management of my next stop.  I didn't know Grigson was a done deal.  Sad Day

 

Not really. If the option was picked up before the season -- which is likely -- then that's just business as usual. If Pagano had taken the one year extension, he'd still be under contract, but that doesn't mean he'd be coming back. The Polians were still under contract when they were fired, so was Caldwell. Having one year on Grigson's deal doesn't mean anything.

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, bluebombers87 said:

Players won't care who the coach is? Players don't take a paycut and go to New England so they can work with Tom Brady? Coaches matter. I think you're talking about the Colts specifically and I'm talking more in general.

 

Insubordination is not advantageous to keeping your job. If the GM is handicapping you then the owner should be asking the GM some tough questions if he's seeing some questionable players acquisitions or failings.

 

And yet again we know that at some point Pagano did challenge Grigson or at least disagreed with him on something as the rumors imply there was tension. And I never said that you or anyone else thought he should call Grigson out. I was merely saying that we dont know what was happening behind the closed doors. Part of that is Pagano keeping it in house like he should.

They care to an extent.  Sure, they might go to NE to play for Belichick, but he is one of the all time greats.....Chuck is not.

 

i know it's not advantageous to keeping your job.  I'm saying he should have risked his job. There are only 32 HC jpositions in the NFL, I'll be damned if I would let someone interfere with me doing the basics of my job. In light of the new info (reportedly) I wouldn't have blamed Pagano one bit if he resigned after last season.  If you are hired to do a job and they hamstring you.....screw'em.

[TD]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Not really. If the option was picked up before the season -- which is likely -- then that's just business as usual. If Pagano had taken the one year extension, he'd still be under contract, but that doesn't mean he'd be coming back. The Polians were still under contract when they were fired, so was Caldwell. Having one year on Grigson's deal doesn't mean anything.

Ahhhh  I see.  Thanks for that insight.  If Grigson stays I think the things I mention will happen, but from what I read it seemed people were saying Grigson's extension had been recently renewed, and that would seem to place a light on the situation were it true.  I personally hope Pagaon gets a chance to coach with a GM that is supportive and works with the Coach instead of at odds.  Having harmony between those two positions would seem to be a beneficial in most instances; not all, but most.

[Superman]

Just now, TD said:

Ahhhh  I see.  Thanks for that insight.  If Grigson stays I think the things I mention will happen, but from what I read it seemed people were saying Grigson's extension had been recently renewed, and that would seem to place a light on the situation were it true.  I personally hope Pagaon gets a chance to coach with a GM that is supportive and works with the Coach instead of at odds.  Having harmony between those two positions would seem to be a beneficial in most instances; not all, but most.

 

I don't think it was recently picked up. First time I read that it was picked up was toward the beginning of the season, and I've read it a couple times since. Not much fanfare about it along the way, so it was easy to miss. But I'm a contract junkie, so I remember it. 

 

Agreed on the rest. Having a good working relationship between coach and GM is critical.

[bluebombers87]

4 minutes ago, BOTT said:

They care to an extent.  Sure, they might go to NE to play for Belichick, but he is one of the all time greats.....Chuck is not.

 

i know it's not advantageous to keeping your job.  I'm saying he should have risked his job. There are only 32 HC jpositions in the NFL, I'll be damned if I would let someone interfere with me doing the basics of my job. In light of the new info (reportedly) I wouldn't have blamed Pagano one bit if he resigned after last season.  If you are hired to do a job and they hamstring you.....screw'em.

Never said he was. I even said we were talking specifics versus in general.

 

Why resign if there was no guarantee he'd get another shot? He had a winning record but very little else. Even Caldwell had a super bowl appearance under his belt. A GM looks at that and there's a good chance that coach doesn't get the offer. All of these rumors have begun in this last season. Had Pagano left, who knows if any of Grigsons potential meddling comes to light. Without it and Pagano leaving early, who's a GM gonna believe, an unproven Head coach, albeit well respected, who blames his past GM (also respected) or a GM that says it was the coach's fault? 

[CoachLite]

1 hour ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Grigson cause if we hire a new GM he will want his own HC so I still get what I really want and that's both gone 

I'm not sure that this "hierarchy" always plays out. Often, the HC may influence, if not dictate, the roles and responsibilities of the GM. Obviously, however it played out, this is at the heart of the systemic failure. What concerns me most is that this is not the first time this mismatch has happened with the Colts. Hopefully, the Irsay family will address the problem before it happens again.

[GoColts8818]

1 hour ago, Swan Ronson said:

Players really shouldn't be airing their dirty linen in public like that.

Agreed.

 

I also don't buy it when the players say they would do anything for Chuck because they flat out quit on him in the second half of two games this season and have made the same mistakes in terms of penalties and turnovers all season.  If they would do anything for Chuck they wouldn't have done those things. 

 

While I would exclude Pat from the list of players who quit as I do think he plays hard when he's out there I don't think the idea that the Colts players as a whole would do anything for Chuck is true.

 

I do think they like Chuck a lot and why not?  Chuck is a hard person not to like.  With that said I do think there is a major difference between liking a coaching and being willing to do anything for him. 

 

I've always thought the biggest problem with Pagano was that his teams lacked discipline.  It shows up with things like penalties, turnovers, and players saying things like this that they probably really shouldn't be saying even if it's true. 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Agreed.

 

I also don't buy it when the players say they would do anything for Chuck because they flat out quit on him in the second half of two games this season and have made the same mistakes in terms of penalties and turnovers all season.  If they would do anything for Chuck they wouldn't have done those things. 

 

While I would exclude Pat from the list of players who quit as I do think he plays hard when he's out there I don't think the idea that the Colts players as a whole would do anything for Chuck is true.

 

I do think they like Chuck a lot and why not?  Chuck is a hard person not to like.  With that said I do think there is a major difference between liking a coaching and being willing to do anything for him. 

 

I've always thought the biggest problem with Pagano was that his teams lacked discipline.  It shows up with things like penalties, turnovers, and players saying things like this that they probably really shouldn't be saying even if it's true. 

 

The players didn't quit in those games. They got outplayed, and were outmatched. (Here comes the 'if they didn't quit, I'd hate to see if they did' line. Just watch the games. Greg Toler getting burned down the sideline doesn't mean he or anyone else quit. Players coming out of their lanes on punt coverage doesn't mean they quit.) 

 

And the phrase 'I would do anything for Coach' is a figure of speech, and should be considered in context. 

 

The Colts haven't had an issue with discipline. Two years ago, they were the least penalized team in the league, and committed the fewest turnovers in the league. Turnovers aren't a reflection of poor discipline, anyways. They don't have a bunch of players getting fined, suspended, etc.

 

Lastly, players saying things like this is something that the Colts have not been known for throughout Pagano's tenure. When things start coming apart, like now, it's typical that a player or two would speak out of turn. And still, the worst things that have been said by Hilton and reportedly McAfee, off the record, are child's play compared to the stuff that comes out of other camps when there's tension or uncertainty. 

[Restored]

#FireGrigson

[pacolts56]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think Irsay said 'I wanted my team back.' Pat Bowlen said that when he fired Mike Shanahan. I've thought that Irsay felt that way about the Polian decision, but I don't think he ever actually said that.

 

And since I'm theorizing, I think Irsay's absence and suspension in 2014 may have contributed to Grigson's power grab, assuming this is all true.

I stand corrected....Pat Bowlen was the one who actually made that comment. But the similarities when Polian and son was fired were there.

 

And yes, Irsay's 2014 absence certainly didn't help matters.

 

Whenever the dust settles, hopefully we have a solid and experienced GM and coaching staff to move forward with.

 

The roster upgrades needed are challenging enough as it is.

[ColtRider]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

The players didn't quit in those games. They got outplayed, and were outmatched. (Here comes the 'if they didn't quit, I'd hate to see if they did' line. Just watch the games. Greg Toler getting burned down the sideline doesn't mean he or anyone else quit. Players coming out of their lanes on punt coverage doesn't mean they quit.) 

 

And the phrase 'I would do anything for Coach' is a figure of speech, and should be considered in context. 

 

The Colts haven't had an issue with discipline. Two years ago, they were the least penalized team in the league, and committed the fewest turnovers in the league. Turnovers aren't a reflection of poor discipline, anyways. They don't have a bunch of players getting fined, suspended, etc.

 

Lastly, players saying things like this is something that the Colts have not been known for throughout Pagano's tenure. When things start coming apart, like now, it's typical that a player or two would speak out of turn. And still, the worst things that have been said by Hilton and reportedly McAfee, off the record, are child's play compared to the stuff that comes out of other camps when there's tension or uncertainty. 

 

We've touched on this many, many times during the season with regards to turnovers & penalties. Just as you have pointed out MOS, two years makes a gargantuan difference. If we could go back and incorporate the league leading venue of turnovers & penalties from then, we're not talking about a lot of what's wrong with the Colts & virtually not making the Playoffs in 2015-16 season.

To the contrary, we're preparing for them, even without Luck. So, there's that. Execution has destroyed this season. Plain, pure, and simple.