The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)

[OffensivelyPC]

2 hours ago, Mr Clueless said:

I'm extremely disappointed that there hasn't even been a single rumour of Grigson being fired.

There absolutely has, from Irsay himself.  Just depends on what hte new HC wants.  

[Myles]

2 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

There absolutely has, from Irsay himself.  Just depends on what hte new HC wants.  

That shouldn't even be an option.   

I'm in favor of keeping those 2 things separate.

[OffensivelyPC]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

That shouldn't even be an option.   

I'm in favor of keeping those 2 things separate.

I'm torn on it.  I like the idea of a coach getting players he likes for his system.  The rub of course is always whether that coach can evaluate college talent.  It eliminates certain problems such as the one we are currently going through.  Offensively, I think someone like Payton can absolutely evaluate offensive talent.  Not so sure about defense.  Saban, for instance, is the reverse.  

 

And ultimately, just because there's no standalone rumor that Grigson may not keep his job, doesn't mean that isn't on the table.  We'll see.

[TD]

33 minutes ago, chrisfarley said:

Pagano and Grigson were propped up by Luck for three years.  I've been real critical of Grigson as well, I want them both gone. To re-hash all of the mistakes by Grigson and Pagano is exhausting.  They have also done very good things as well.  But there was NO trend happening that told any of us, including you, that we were even getting close to being able to beat the Patriots in a playoff scenario.  That's the bottom line and this is a bottom line business.  If you can't realistically get to the Super Bowl after 4 years, something is broken.

What bothers me is probably the things we don't know but can assume from action taken, but the assumptions may be wrong.  I would think it best if a Coach would pick his staff and then be held accountable for them.  The GM should manage the budget, hire players, and make the best trade deals in accordance to the needs of the team.  From what I saw, I'm not sure that Pagono's staff was his staff.  I'm not sure just how forceful the GM was in dictating who did and didn't play, but if he did anything to influence the coach he was over the line.  From what I know and see;  it looks to me that Pagano merits another chance.  You're right in that both men have made mistakes but I'm not sure how much of Pagano's mistakes were foisted on him by the GM.  In the end it's the Irsay team and he'll do as he pleases, but he touts family values which I whole heartedly embrace.  I'm one of those bleeding hearts that am so proud of our players as role models; even those that don't play so well that I could bust.  I'll disagree with you that this is simply a "bottom line" business.  From what I know of Mr. Irsay he wants to win, but he wants to win with a product he can be proud of in the victory.  I'm not sure the Patriot owners care how they win or by what means and that is just not Jim Irsay's way of doing things.  He doesn't cheat and I'm proud he doesn't?

[Myles]

I wouldn't be disappointed in Coughlin.   Not my first choice, but at least he is a proven Superbowl winning HC. 

 

How about Jim Bob Cooter!!!!!

[Myles]

9 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

I'm torn on it.  I like the idea of a coach getting players he likes for his system.  The rub of course is always whether that coach can evaluate college talent.  It eliminates certain problems such as the one we are currently going through.  Offensively, I think someone like Payton can absolutely evaluate offensive talent.  Not so sure about defense.  Saban, for instance, is the reverse.  

 

And ultimately, just because there's no standalone rumor that Grigson may not keep his job, doesn't mean that isn't on the table.  We'll see.

I agree.   I think the best cases are when the GM hires a coach he wants and likes.   Then they can work together.  Steve Keim and Bruce Arians come to mind.   While Steve makes the final decisions, it is obvious that he listens to Bruce.  I think they worked together in bringing in the staff Arians wanted (Tom Moore, Tom Pratt ect..) as well as players such as Freeney, Redding and Shipley.  

[OffensivelyPC]

7 minutes ago, Myles said:

I agree.   I think the best cases are when the GM hires a coach he wants and likes.   Then they can work together.  Steve Keim and Bruce Arians come to mind.   While Steve makes the final decisions, it is obvious that he listens to Bruce.  I think they worked together in bringing in the staff Arians wanted (Tom Moore, Tom Pratt ect..) as well as players such as Freeney, Redding and Shipley.  

That setup works, too.  No doubt about it.  Grigson has to change a lot about how he operates as GM for that to work.  Because I don't see a coach wanting to come here under the conditions that Pagano was working under.  It makes us less attractive to say the least.  If not, then Irsay should start fresh.

[TD]

3 minutes ago, Myles said:

I agree.   I think the best cases are when the GM hires a coach he wants and likes.   Then they can work together.  Steve Keim and Bruce Arians come to mind.   While Steve makes the final decisions, it is obvious that he listens to Bruce.  I think they worked together in bringing in the staff Arians wanted (Tom Moore, Tom Pratt ect..) as well as players such as Freeney, Redding and Shipley.  

I'll agree with the part about the Coach and GM being on the same page, but the owner needs to lay down a set of job descriptions that both the GM and HC agree to abide.  Around the league the GM's have so many varying job descriptions that its hard to recognize one from another.  Some HC's have way more input with player personnel  and some clubs let the GM do it all.  In an ideal world the GM and HC would work together.  The GM should be listening to the HC about player personnel and staff needs and the HC should understand the GM's salary cap and contractual problems. The GM, HC, and Owner should most certainly agree on the primary problems to be solved.  It wouldn't bother me if the Owner and GM never left the owners box on game day except to visit corporate sponsors.  From an owners perspective some of it has to be about $, some about the pride of winning, and some about how the team wins. Ideally he cares about entertainment value, the community where the franchise exists, and his fan base in general; but mostly about the game of football and those that love it, and watch it, and play it.

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, TD said:

 Ideally he cares about entertainment value, the community where the franchise exists, and his fan base in general; but mostly about the game of football and those that love it, and watch it, and play it.

Jim Irsay has shown in the past that he absolutely loves football and is a fan of it himself. That being said, I have no doubt he's changed that mindset

[TD]

2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Jim Irsay has shown in the past that he absolutely loves football and is a fan of it himself. -----That being said, I have no doubt he's changed that mindset

That won't change; he was born loving football.

[Myles]

If I was an owner, I'd go outside the box and hire a 3 man panel for the GM role.  

Force them to work together with the coach and do what is best for the team.   If the HC wants a person for a coordinator position, he'll need to get 2/3 of the GM's to agree. 

I know it sounds weird, but what the Colts had/have does not work.  

[Dustin]

@ACwishtv  1m1 minute ago

I just saw #Colts owner Jim Irsay just arrive to complex. @WISH_TV #ColtsWatch8

[Dustin]

4 minutes ago, Myles said:

If I was an owner, I'd go outside the box and hire a 3 man panel for the GM role.  

Force them to work together with the coach and do what is best for the team.   If the HC wants a person for a coordinator position, he'll need to get 2/3 of the GM's to agree. 

I know it sounds weird, but what the Colts had/have does not work.  

 

That's essentially what the Bengals have (as Superman informed me a few days back).

[TD]

Just now, Dustin said:

@ACwishtv  1m1 minute ago

I just saw #Colts owner Jim Irsay just arrive to complex. @WISH_TV #ColtsWatch8

It's getting late in the day... interesting it took this long.

[TD]

Either the decision was made days or weeks ago and Irsay just wants to hit a news deadline, or maybe there was some last minute posturing and give and take.   I hope for the latter, but will be interesting no matter.

[csmopar]

13 minutes ago, TD said:

That won't change; he was born loving football.

Thats what I was trying to say. Thanks

[JPFolks]

6 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

To the 2 highlighted points... why? I would argue that it's pretty obvious that he was spoon fed all of these "facts" by people in Pagano's camp.

Let's say you're right Shaun... he was spoonfed those points, just as all the negative stuff about Pagano were also fed to anyone who reported it.  But the situation is fact.  Richardson and Harrison played.  It happened.  So all we're really discussing here is the reason.  Do you think Pagano was the one insisting they play?  Then why spoonfeed the opposite while they were playing? If Pagano believed in those guys as his best options, he wouldn't be sending out false propaganda at the same time saying Grigson is insisting they play.  

 

Now, there are other theories by the way.  One which might make sense is that Irsay is actually the one who insisted they play and Grigson simply played go between.  That's interesting, but seems to me less likely than Grigson who traded our #1 pick for Richardson wanting every chance in hopes of Richardson living up to the deal even though all the way down to the average fan, it was obvious early on he wouldn't.  The Harrison situation was the oddest thing I have seen from the Colts in that week after week reporters asked why Shipley was benched for Harrison who was sucking bad and they would not give a response.  Not "he's earned the job" which is usually the go to answer.  Pagano never said anything like that, he simply refused to give ANY reason why Harrison was playing.  There were many stories being written back then that it was Grigson insisting his find Harrison play instead of Shipley.  Who knows why, but why didn't any reporters report that it was Pagano's fault and decision.  The answer seems easy, it wasn't his choice.  

[chrisfarley]

46 minutes ago, Myles said:

I wouldn't be disappointed in Coughlin.   Not my first choice, but at least he is a proven Superbowl winning HC. 

 

How about Jim Bob Cooter!!!!!

The name alone rules him out. 

[BOTT]

3 hours ago, TD said:

Better check what they had to say about Luck playing injured before it put him out .  The word from the organization was that he was playing hurt when he was playing and that is what hampered his performance.   You're honestly comparing Romo to Luck, LOL.  Better check the age difference, physical abilities, and I'd prefer the guys in our O-Line to the Cowbows if I had to stand behind them.   Both of them need help.  The people in our O line are good people, but the quality of their play is lacking and some of that is due to injury, but less than 1/10 of 1% is Pagano's fault.

You just lost all credibility 

[TD]

1 hour ago, BOTT said:

You just lost all credibility 

if its with you, I didn't loose much.

[Dave Meuchel]

I'm sure that Irsay doesn't read or care what any of us say here, but I'll say this anyway: if Irsay even hints at hiring Sean Payton, I'm done as a Colts fan. Character counts as much or more than winning to a large part of the Colts fan base, and I know quite a lot of fans who will not accept or support a head coach who was 'bounty-gate' cheater. We despise Billi-cheat because of his past actions; we'll not accept a cheater as our coach. Colts pride means we do it right.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000613839/article/colts-thinking-big-if-they-move-on-from-chuck-pagano

[Superman]

1 hour ago, TD said:

It's getting late in the day... interesting it took this long.

 

I think he's been working the phones all day.

[Dustin]

27 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think he's been working the phones all day.

 

Pagano for Payton straight up. Is it possible?

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Dustin said:

 

Pagano for Payton straight up. Is it possible?

 

Not remotely. The Saints might be interested in Pagano as DC...

[Dustin]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Not remotely. The Saints might be interested in Pagano as DC...

 

No, I mean i know it won't happen.......but is it possible?

 

Idk man ive been sitting in front of my computer screen since 3 am im just rambling at this point

[Dustin]

there's no reason we shouldn't have an announcement by now

[sfergson727]

On the Indystar site, the video links are saying Pagano has officially been fired.  Still looking for secondary confirmation.

[Jason_]

3 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

No, I mean i know it won't happen.......but is it possible?

 

Idk man ive been sitting in front of my computer screen since 3 am im just rambling at this point

 

is it even possible to make a trade at this time of year?  That's what I've been wondering. I didn't think trades were possible until the new league year started but I'd think that would have been brought up in regards to all the talk about the Saints wanting a 2nd rounder for Payton.

[Dustin]

2 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

is it even possible to make a trade at this time of year?  That's what I've been wondering. I didn't think trades were possible until the new league year started but I'd think that would have been brought up in regards to all the talk about the Saints wanting a 2nd rounder for Payton.

 

that's what i was just wondering too. I'd imagine you'd be able to because the start of the league year is way too far away.

[Dustin]

ok, reading up a little more, you should be able to "trade" for coaches because it's not technically "trading".

 

When coaches are traded, it doesn’t happen the same way players are traded.  Typically the coach’s contract doesn’t get shipped to a new team.  Instead, the two teams agree on compensation (draft picks and/or cash) that would be exchanged if the new team works out a contract with the coach.  If that happens, the current team releases the coach in exchange for the compensation.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/02/teams-can-still-trade-for-head-coaches/

[bababooey]

On twitter "I see the Colts slow starts aren't restricted to only game days". Come on already.

[JColts72]

1 hour ago, Dave Meuchel said:

I'm sure that Irsay doesn't read or care what any of us say here, but I'll say this anyway: if Irsay even hints at hiring Sean Payton, I'm done as a Colts fan. Character counts as much or more than winning to a large part of the Colts fan base, and I know quite a lot of fans who will not accept or support a head coach who was 'bounty-gate' cheater. We despise Billi-cheat because of his past actions; we'll not accept a cheater as our coach. Colts pride means we do it right.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000613839/article/colts-thinking-big-if-they-move-on-from-chuck-pagano

Colt fans are probably more upset for him beating the Colts in the Superbowl, but again, anyone would be able to outcoach Caldwell.

[bababooey]

NO DECISION TONIGHT

[BOTT]

1 hour ago, TD said:

if its with you, I didn't loose much.

You are a mean person 

[18Manning]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2015 at 8:17 AM, theanarchist said:

These rumors persist about their relationship. If they are true then, as the article says, Jim has a big decision to make. No coach worth his salt is going to stand for a GM who meddles in the starting lineup and your staff hires. It looks to me like Grigson needs the boot.

 

If this is a fact, it would be very difficult/impossible for ANY coach to direct the team.

[Superman]

50 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

No, I mean i know it won't happen.......but is it possible?

 

Idk man ive been sitting in front of my computer screen since 3 am im just rambling at this point

 

So, is it allowed? I don't see why not. Coach contracts aren't dictated by the CBA, held to the start of the league year, etc. I see you dug up a link basically explaining the mechanics. The Saints would have to agree to a contract with Pagano, and the Colts would have to agree to a deal with Payton, and then it's a done deal. Would probably be very messy.

[Superman]

34 minutes ago, bababooey said:

On twitter "I see the Colts slow starts aren't restricted to only game days". Come on already.

 

That's actually funny.

[Solon]

I think Irsay's going over the entire situation once more. Outpouring support of Pagano from the players is making this decision difficult. 

[BOTT]

3 minutes ago, Solon said:

I think Irsay's going over the entire situation once more. Outpouring support of Pagano from the players is making this decision difficult. 

Listening to players is on par with listening to fans

[Solon]

Just now, BOTT said:

Listening to players is on par with listening to fans

He has a lot of support from the NFL fandom community too. Fans of other teams want the Colts to sign him to a extension.