The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)

[chrisfarley]

WOW, The Patriots are suddenly looking pedestrian and we are not in the playoffs, go figure!  But on the bright side, Pagano would have still managed to lose to them by 35.

[chrisfarley]

10 hours ago, snkdy said:

A lot of the players are pleading for Pagano to stay on Twitter, but I guess that was to be expected. 

I don't care if Pagano stays on Twitter or if he cancels his account. 

[JPFolks]

17 hours ago, DougDew said:

No.  He is not saying his multiple sources confirm his opinion that Grigson is trying to save face.  He is saying that sources have told him that Grigson was trying to save face.  There is a difference.

 

If it turns out differently, he can simply say that his sources opinion was wrong and that he never offered that opinion himself in the first place.

 

Besides JP, be logical, nobody can ever KNOW WHY somebody else made a decision, unless the person making the decision told them directly.  Just bringing up WHY Grigson meddled is Kravitz' way of fueling a fire that has already been started.  That Grigson does things out of ego...and not because he is trying to make the best decision for the team in the long term. (I'm not defending that they are the right ones)

Are you suggesting that it is impossible to determine that someone acts out of ego over right and wrong?  

 

And Kravitz was far more detailed in his reporting on Cowherds show than he was in that short article.  Bottom line is still the fact that Grigson OVERRULED Pagano and forced Richardson on the field when he clearly was not performing and didn't merit or deserve being on the field, AND according to Kravitz and others reporting it was against the wishes of Pagano... same with Harrison over Shipley.   Frankly Harrison should have been on the field at all this year.  They should have picked up a practice squad player elsewhere if it came to it to take his place.. he was the biggest asset of nearly every defense we faced while he was in there because he simply can't block.  So assign any reason, motive or mystery to it that you want, I still maintain, as do most, that Richardson shouldn't have been playing nor should Harrison when better options were available.  Why you're so supportive of Grigson is beyond me.... but you can't really deny the truth by using a straw man and arguing about some sources who offered up the reason for why he did it.. the fact remains... HE DID IT.  

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 12/31/2015 at 11:16 AM, lennymoore24 said:

I always have to wonder.  What I have heard from anyone who has ever worked with him is that Pagano is one of the easiest people to work with and get along with.  So what does that say about Grigson?  And why the heck would any coach want to work with Grigson knowing in a year he could be gone, which means coach would likely be replaced too.

 

I think Grigson goes if Pagano does

Well, I could argue that the media helped shape that narrative, largely because Grigson won't speak with them, and Pagano will. When you don't speak to the media, they tend to fill in the blanks.

 

I actually came across a really good article by Nate Dunleavy that sums everything up pretty nicely, and he actually makes a really good case to keep Grigson and not retain Pagano:

 

https://t.co/95ABTutJLr

[Steamboat_Shaun]

14 hours ago, COLTS449 said:

No they all need to go. Grigson is just terrible. "Oh lets go sign a bunch of mediocre players instead of good players because good players may have a higher cap hit. "But then lets over pay the mediocre players to ensure they come here" My dislike for our general manager runs pretty deep. Greg Toler over Sean Smith. Erik Walden over Elvis Dumervil. Todd Herremans over Ritchie Incognito. Trent Cole over Parnell McPhee. Andre Johnson over Brandon Marshall. Trading a 1st rounder for Trent Richardson. Drafting Werner over guys like Rhodes. We have to get a GM who'll go all out in free agency and go all in for guys like Mo Wilkerson or Malik Jackson, Sean Smith or Janorris Jenkins, Miller if he's available or Ware if he's cut, Osemele, Wisnewski, Those type of players. And we need a GM who doesn't care to bring in guys with off the field issues if they're stars on the field. Who puts winning above all else. We need a tough defense full of hard hitting nasty playmakers. I'm tired of being the soft nice guy team.

So you want a GM who's willing to put us in cap hell?

[Steamboat_Shaun]

19 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Saving face is Kravitz's source's explanation.  And he does put his reputation on the line saying HIS MULTIPLE sources confirmed it.  I saw an extensive interview with Kravitz on Cowherds show and he expanded on his article.  Look, feel free to sit in puzzlement about it, I choose to believe Kravitz's informers explanation to describe what any and everyone with a clue saw clearly, lesser players were continually played OVER better players even when results were very poor over and over consistently.  You apparently think it is simply a big mystery.  I took Kravitz seriously and believe his sources and his credibility.  

To the 2 highlighted points... why? I would argue that it's pretty obvious that he was spoon fed all of these "facts" by people in Pagano's camp.

[csmopar]

5 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

So you want a GM who's willing to put us in cap hell?

So I kind of was wondering....what if Irsay would restrict Grigs to strictly a Salary Cap Manager and turn the GM role, minus that to Pagano....thoughts?

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, csmopar said:

So I kind of was wondering....what if Irsay would restrict Grigs to strictly a Salary Cap Manager and turn the GM role, minus that to Pagano....thoughts?

Wouldn't be ideal. Pagano has proven that while he has some acumen on the defensive side of the ball, his philosophy on offense is archaic and dated, and as a result, they come out stale and flat more times than not.

[TD]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2015 at 1:28 PM, DougDew said:

There may be more than a few coaches who would have no problem with Grigson, we simply don't know.

 

But I think your scenarios are the most likely.

I imagine Pagano had more problems with what Grigson gave him to use than with the personality.  If you watch the demeanor of the two men on TV you can see there is a huge disparity between their personalities.  Grigson is brash and rude and Pagano is rah rah and friendly.  And guess what?  That means nothing.  What counts is how they play the game.  Let's see  Grigson acquisitions by my score card are 70% failures in the performance department and Pagano's record is 41-23 , so 46% failures.  Hmmmmm ok   Would seem to me if you toss out personality and go by record that Grigson goes.   But I really don't care because this whole conversation is devisive.   I just think its sad that all this happened.

[csmopar]

5 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

Wouldn't be ideal. Pagano has proven that while he has some acumen on the defensive side of the ball, his philosophy on offense is archaic and dated, and as a result, they come out stale and flat more times than not.

Fair enough,   the one thing I DO like about Grigs is how he structures contracts and manages the cap over the 4 years.  Granted his drafting and some free agency choices havent worked out.  It's his meddling in coaching decisions that bother me and thats why i want him gone.

[Swan Ronson]

That article is at least an interesting alternative to the popular narrative. Perhaps Chuck is just very good at shaping the narrative, who knows.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

3 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Fair enough,   the one thing I DO like about Grigs is how he structures contracts and manages the cap over the 4 years.  Granted his drafting and some free agency choices havent worked out.  It's his meddling in coaching decisions that bother me and thats why i want him gone.

All of his "meddling" seemed to occur on the offensive side of the ball, and considering Pagano's ineptitude on offensive scheming, I kind of get why Grigson was "interfering" to begin with. I never really heard of any of this meddling when during Arians' tenure as interim HC, so I'm led to believe that neither Grigson or Irsay feel that Pagano truly has a handle on the offense.

[BOTT]

35 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

Well, I could argue that the media helped shape that narrative, largely because Grigson won't speak with them, and Pagano will. When you don't speak to the media, they tend to fill in the blanks.

 

I actually came across a really good article by Nate Dunleavy that sums everything up pretty nicely, and he actually makes a really good case to keep Grigson and not retain Pagano:

 

https://t.co/95ABTutJLr

Good article and Nate Dunceleavy don't go together.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

2 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Good article and Nate Dunceleavy don't go together.

Did you take the time to read the article by chance?

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

Did you take the time to read the article by chance?

No, I stopped reading anything by Dunleavy.  Not a shot at you, I just don't care for his opinion.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

No, I stopped reading anything by Dunleavy.  Not a shot at you, I just don't care for his opinion.

It's a level-headed non-biased look at the Colts' GM/HC positions, absent of any of the hot air that would be coupled with a Doyel or Kravitz piece. It's a worthwhile 5 minutes with some pretty decent insight.

[BOTT]

11 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

It's a level-headed non-biased look at the Colts' GM/HC positions, absent of any of the hot air that would be coupled with a Doyel or Kravitz piece. It's a worthwhile 5 minutes with some pretty decent insight.

Not a bad article, but I felt he went easy on Grigson.  I say that as someone who dislikes them both equally.

[bababooey]

11 hours ago, MTC said:

 

Saw that too. 

 

This is why I don't have a problem with Pagano being let go. 

As much as watching his post-Green Bay speech and you want to run through a brick wall for the guy, numbers don't lie. The cliches got old as the season went down the drain. He's most proud of 8-8 without Luck over AFCCG? He's proud we don't quit despite never really starting (see New Orleans)? I wanted it to happen for him so bad.

[DougDew]

deleted

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, TD said:

I imagine Pagano had more problems with what Grigson gave him to use than with the personality.  If you watch the demeanor of the two men on TV you can see there is a huge disparity between their personalities.  Grigson is brash and rude and Pagano is rah rah and friendly.  And guess what?  That means nothing.  What counts is how they play the game.  Let's see  Grigson acquisitions by my score card are 70% failures in the performance department and Pagano's record is 41-23 , so 46% failures.  Hmmmmm ok   Would seem to me if you toss out personality and go by record that Grigson goes.   But I really don't care because this whole conversation is devisive.   I just think its sad that all this happened.

Grigson turned over the roster, only Mathis and the special teams trio is left over.  How can his acquisitions be 70% failures yet the winning record of 41-23 is the result of Pagano? 

 

I'm not supporting Grigson.  I'm just confused about how a lot of people derive their opinion.

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Are you suggesting that it is impossible to determine that someone acts out of ego over right and wrong?  

 

And Kravitz was far more detailed in his reporting on Cowherds show than he was in that short article.  Bottom line is still the fact that Grigson OVERRULED Pagano and forced Richardson on the field when he clearly was not performing and didn't merit or deserve being on the field, AND according to Kravitz and others reporting it was against the wishes of Pagano... same with Harrison over Shipley.   Frankly Harrison should have been on the field at all this year.  They should have picked up a practice squad player elsewhere if it came to it to take his place.. he was the biggest asset of nearly every defense we faced while he was in there because he simply can't block.  So assign any reason, motive or mystery to it that you want, I still maintain, as do most, that Richardson shouldn't have been playing nor should Harrison when better options were available.  Why you're so supportive of Grigson is beyond me.... but you can't really deny the truth by using a straw man and arguing about some sources who offered up the reason for why he did it.. the fact remains... HE DID IT.  

I think proof of intent can only be determined by a court of law..if even that.  And I'm not accusing Grigson of having any particular intent...others are. 

 

I don't care about Grigson.  He can be fired anytime and it wouldn't bother me at all.  That's the problem with this forum.  I try to point out where things don't make sense and others then accuse me of defending him.  No.  I have no dog in this fight, but I think what drives others opinions.....what they choose to believe....is based upon some idea that Grigson is a control freak who wants to treat his subordinates like puppets...(which is how Kravitz has been writing articles about anything the past 20 years).  Kravitz sings to his choir.  Its common knowledge. 

 

Why can't Grigson be meddling because he wants to make football decisions and lacks confidence in the coaches to make good decisions..which BTW...seem to always be on the offensive side of the ball.  As I said, he didn't appear to "save face" (rolls eyes) by meddling in the Werner situation.

 

Ok super sleuth...why isn't Werner playing if Grigson meddles to save face?  

[rockywoj]

16 hours ago, rockywoj said:

Although there a clearly areas of talent deficiency, the OL being the most obvious, imho the team's biggest issues were in coaching / scheme.  And to be fair, it's not like Grigson ignored the OL.   A lot of his moves, for whatever reasons, just didn't work out.

 

Guess I am in the minority in that, despite some misses (Richardson / Werner being the most obvious two), I just don't see the grade F that most of the Fire Grigson crew see.  I see a coaching staff that has failed to adapt in game planning and failed to effectively do their job.  An example = how slow they were to replace Pep as OC ... that should have been done before the season, as the bad O scheme was pretty darn clear last season to those paying attention (and looking deeper that the high O ranking of 2014).

 

Assuming a coaching staff change IS going to happen, though, the GM and new coaching staff must be on the same page with clearly defined lines of responsibility, because if not, then the whole works needs to be changed.   

 

End of of the day, though, if the owner is on board with the GM, then there is no need to get rid of the GM simply because of a change in coaching staff.   Guess we're soon going to find out what Irsay thinks of Grigson.

 

what I WILL say is if Grigson is retained, then his contract ought to be extended by at least 1-2 years before next season starts.   I still think it was a mistake to go into this season with a potential lame duck coach & I think it would be an equal mistake to go into next year with a lame duck GM.  This falls on Irsay.

some stupid smart fill corrections fixed.

[GoColts8818]

2 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

To the 2 highlighted points... why? I would argue that it's pretty obvious that he was spoon fed all of these "facts" by people in Pagano's camp.

Here's the thing with that based on how people are talking all the people in Colts land are in Pagano's camp and not Grigson's other than maybe Irsay.  Personally I say fire both.

[bababooey]

WFAN just said Coughlin could consider Indy...

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I'm extremely disappointed that there hasn't even been a single rumour of Grigson being fired.

[TD]

6 hours ago, chrisfarley said:

WOW, The Patriots are suddenly looking pedestrian and we are not in the playoffs, go figure!  But on the bright side, Pagano would have still managed to lose to them by 35.

First of all Pagano isn't playing the game, and second of all he can only use the lame players that were provided by the GM which managed to get every QB that took the field injured.  So Pagano has taken you to the play-offs three out of four years,  he looses his starting QB for 8 games and has an 8-8 season, and you want to throw him under the bus?  Shame on you and all of you that go after Pagano without adding the GM and the real time situation of injuries to the mix.  I remember when we were happy to win half our games on a good year.  Get over yourselves,  Coaches don't play games and I've yet to hear where his coaching was at fault.  It's so much of just hearing yourselves talk.  I'll take the 4th winningest active coach in the NFL any day over a Billacheap any day.

[csmopar]

8 minutes ago, Mr Clueless said:

I'm extremely disappointed that there hasn't even been a single rumour of Grigson being fired.

i honestly dont think he will b

[bababooey]

3 minutes ago, TD said:

First of all Pagano isn't playing the game, and second of all he can only use the lame players that were provided by the GM which managed to get every QB that took the field injured.  So Pagano has taken you to the play-offs three out of four years,  he looses his starting QB for 8 games and has an 8-8 season, and you want to throw him under the bus?  Shame on you and all of you that go after Pagano without adding the GM and the real time situation of injuries to the mix.  I remember when we were happy to win half our games on a good year.  Get over yourselves,  Coaches don't play games and I've yet to hear where his coaching was at fault.  It's so much of just hearing yourselves talk.  I'll take the 4th winningest active coach in the NFL any day over a Billacheap any day.

Again, he beats up on the nobodies and AFC South. Gets smoked by the somebodys minus 2013. Not mentally equipped to beat the Patriots. 

[TD]

1 minute ago, bababooey said:

Again, he beats up on the nobodies and AFC South. Gets smoked by the somebodys minus 2013. Not mentally equipped to beat the Patriots. 

Again he has to have an Offensive line to keep the QB's alive.   LOL on the not mentally equipped.  I'm not going to reply to that one since silly opinions are like rear-ends, everybody's got one.  We'll just leave it at, I dont' agree.

[bababooey]

Just now, TD said:

Again he has to have an Offensive line to keep the QB's alive.   LOL on the not mentally equipped.  I'm not going to reply to that one since silly opinions are like rear-ends, everybody's got one.  We'll just leave it at, I dont' agree.

He definitely isn't out smarting Belichek so he beats himself with fake punts. Cowboys OL is pretty good and Romo is injured every other game. Luck played so much more poorly when healthy this year than in previous 3 years. It's not all on the O line.

[TD]

2 minutes ago, bababooey said:

He definitely isn't out smarting Belichek so he beats himself with fake punts. Cowboys OL is pretty good and Romo is injured every other game. Luck played so much more poorly when healthy this year than in previous 3 years. It's not all on the O line.

Better check what they had to say about Luck playing injured before it put him out .  The word from the organization was that he was playing hurt when he was playing and that is what hampered his performance.   You're honestly comparing Romo to Luck, LOL.  Better check the age difference, physical abilities, and I'd prefer the guys in our O-Line to the Cowbows if I had to stand behind them.   Both of them need help.  The people in our O line are good people, but the quality of their play is lacking and some of that is due to injury, but less than 1/10 of 1% is Pagano's fault.

[bababooey]

Just now, TD said:

Better check what they had to say about Luck playing injured before it put him out .  The word from the organization was that he was playing hurt when he was playing and that is what hampered his performance.   You're honestly comparing Romo to Luck, LOL.  Better check the age difference, physical abilities, and I'd prefer the guys in our O-Line to the Cowbows if I had to stand behind them.   Both of them need help.  The people in our O line are good people, but the quality of their play is lacking and some of that is due to injury, but less than 1/10 of 1% is Pagano's fault.

I think your argument went out the window when you said you would take our o line over Dallas. You know Hasselbeck got hurt too and he's older than Romo.

[bababooey]

This radio silence coming out of colts camp is kind of eerie. The longer we wait the longer I think he's not fired.

[TD]

25 minutes ago, bababooey said:

I think your argument went out the window when you said you would take our o line over Dallas. You know Hasselbeck got hurt too and he's older than Romo.

LOL  you missed the point.    It's easy to understand  Romo and Hassleback getting hurt because of their age, but not Luck.  When you let the arguably one of the three best QB's playing the game to get hurt over and over you have O-line problems.  These are NOT coaching problems; these people know what they are doing.  It's just some of them were not talented enough to provide the protection needed.  The GM provides the players and he didn't do his job.  Can argue on forever about it, but if you simply look at the job specifics,  GM's aren't supposed to coach and HEAD Coaches are in charge of the coaching staff, (some of which Pagano did not select).  The Head Coaches' staff should be "his staff" the GM should stick to hiring players.  Just saying.

[bababooey]

So Pagano just addressed the team.

[NBColtsFanatic]

How much longer are we going to wait. It's like being a kid on Christmas except for all the opposite reasons lol. We want updates Jim!

[bababooey]

Pagano said to his players "i'll go to bad for any of ya". Players said Pagano doesn't know his fate yet - Zak Keefer

 

he's been in since first thing this morning. something is up... #grigsonmutiny???

[chrisfarley]

1 hour ago, TD said:

First of all Pagano isn't playing the game, and second of all he can only use the lame players that were provided by the GM which managed to get every QB that took the field injured.  So Pagano has taken you to the play-offs three out of four years,  he looses his starting QB for 8 games and has an 8-8 season, and you want to throw him under the bus?  Shame on you and all of you that go after Pagano without adding the GM and the real time situation of injuries to the mix.  I remember when we were happy to win half our games on a good year.  Get over yourselves,  Coaches don't play games and I've yet to hear where his coaching was at fault.  It's so much of just hearing yourselves talk.  I'll take the 4th winningest active coach in the NFL any day over a Billacheap any day.

Pagano and Grigson were propped up by Luck for three years.  I've been real critical of Grigson as well, I want them both gone. To re-hash all of the mistakes by Grigson and Pagano is exhausting.  They have also done very good things as well.  But there was NO trend happening that told any of us, including you, that we were even getting close to being able to beat the Patriots in a playoff scenario.  That's the bottom line and this is a bottom line business.  If you can't realistically get to the Super Bowl after 4 years, something is broken.

[jimmy g]

NO Coughlin, please.  Just retire, Tom.  I had no use for him in Jax, let alone NY.

[mahagga73]

You didn't like the fact he won 2 SB and made the Jags into a top team about 15 years ago. Confused?