Brady suspended four games, Pats fined and docked two draft picks (Mega Merge)

[NFLfan]

Yeah, I've read the entire report, been on vacation for 2 weeks so I had time . But I must say it's not full of hokes like pats fans and others want people to believe. From this trained investigator, it looks pretty damning.

Since you read the whole report, did you find anything that directly links Brady to deflating of the footballs? I mean, are there text messages from/to Tom Brady found on McNally's or Jastremski's phone?

I just have a feeling that at the end, Brady will not be punished. That would be terrible.

[OffensivelyPC]

I'll do my best to explain what Patriots fans (or in this case NFL Sirius XM Radio) are talking about when they make this point. 

 

There were two gauges used at different times...their readings had a difference of approximately .4 PSI.

 

If before the game New England's balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 12.5 but Walt Anderson used the higher reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 12.1 PSI even though the higher gauge read 12.5 PSI.

 

If before the game the Colts balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 13.0 but Walt Anderson used the lower reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 13.4 PSI even though the lower gauge read 13.0 PSI. Follow so far?

 

Walt Anderson could not recall which gauge was used when he measured each team's footballs before the game, so that is scenario is entirely plausible.

 

Here's where it gets interesting. When 4 of the Colts balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .05 PSI and .85 PSI...which averages out to .56 of PSI lost. When the Patriots balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .25 PSI and 1.6 PSI...but that is over the span of 11 balls. What if the 4 Colts balls that were measure just happened to be 4 that were on the lower amount of PSI loss? If we take the measurements of 4 of the lower measured balls for the Patriots, do you know what that averages out to? 

 

.57 PSI lost

 

The Colts balls average loss was .56 PSI...and since there is no way to know what the remainder of the Colts balls would have measured had they not run out of time, you simply cant discount the possibility that the 4 they happened to measure could have been on the lower end of PSI loss.

I really wish that when people talked about this, they would quote the portion of Exponent that says that they accounted for this and the results are still that, whichever gauge Walt used, the Colts 4 footballs lost a consistent amount of pressure and the Patriots footballs did not.  They tested both Patriots footballs and Colts footballs with both pressure gauges.  And they made comparisons to each so that, whichever guage Walt used, Exponent had an answer.  And those answers were that the Patriot footballs lost a disprportionately higher amount of pressure than the Colts footballs.

 

People keep quoting this and making it an issue when it's really not.  The ONLY thing that Exponent doesn't have an answer for was how much pressure was lost between the footballs being brought into the locker room at half time and testing.  He says, it's possible (though not likely) that the footballs still had not reached equilibrium from its outdoor pressure and when it was brought in at the time of testing.  But then it doesn't explain why the Colts footballs would have measured out okay.  If people would focus on the correct issues (and by people, I mean the talking heads), it would give better topics for debate, but its' clear that a lot of these guys didn't even read the report.

[CLOWN]

Well if rules, sportsmanship and integrity means zero to you be my guest.

 

 

It does... I find it interesting after reading many your post that integrity is high on your list. Maybe it's one of those lost in text type on things that I'm misinterpreting?

[Superman]

Just got something on FB that said Brady's suspension will be overturned Idk...

Don't get your news from Facebook.

[CLOWN]

Shaun Merriman on FS1 saying that teams have known that the Pats have been cheating and the league has ignored it for years.....

 

Said that when in the locker room at Gillette, they'd pass around cards with what the plans were because they were afraid the Pats were bugging the locker rooms 

I've never heard of Peyton saying that? Part of my problem with condemning Brady is nothing adds up and we are now relying on quotes from people like Merriman and trusting lawyers? Something about Wells stinks big time. Wells integrity is questioned daily...why was it so upsetting for him this time? He's a freaking lawyer for Christ sake. This is just the beginning IMO. By the time this shakes out some deep dark secrets will have been unearthed. Fascinating to say the least.     

[Superman]

I don't think the court has the ability to overrule the picks penalty. The picks were because of the Patriots lack of cooperation and that is strictly prohibited in the CBA.

Player discipline is covered by CBA, but the courts shred that all the time. I believe a suit from Kraft against the league would be an antitrust suit, and the courts love undermining the NFL's antitrust exemption.

I'm sort of playing devil's advocate, but not really. IMO, the NFL's authority in these matters is defined and established by word and by precedent. The player discipline and the team discipline should stand. We'll see.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Posted Today, 01:24 AM

BloodyChamp, on 14 May 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

Just got something on FB that said Brady's suspension will be overturned Idk...

speculation. its impossible to know what stance the arbitrator will take

 

Appeal hasn't even been filed yet!  Let alone an arbitrator assigned.  The Brady team has until 5:00 pm EST to file the appeal.  My Guess Harold Henderson gets to hear the appeal. Then again, he's been assigned the Greg Hardy case, so....

[OffensivelyPC]

Posted Today, 01:24 AM

BloodyChamp, on 14 May 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

 

Appeal hasn't even been filed yet!  Let alone an arbitrator assigned.  The Brady team has until 5:00 pm EST to file the appeal.  My Guess Harold Henderson gets to hear the appeal. Then again, he's been assigned the Greg Hardy case, so....

He was also overruled in the Peterson case which is currently on its way to the federal court of appeals.

[Gramz]

He was also overruled in the Peterson case which is currently on its way to the federal court of appeals.

It baffles my mind that NFL issues become Federal issues.

[Gramz]

[GoColts8818]

I really wish that when people talked about this, they would quote the portion of Exponent that says that they accounted for this and the results are still that, whichever gauge Walt used, the Colts 4 footballs lost a consistent amount of pressure and the Patriots footballs did not.  They tested both Patriots footballs and Colts footballs with both pressure gauges.  And they made comparisons to each so that, whichever guage Walt used, Exponent had an answer.  And those answers were that the Patriot footballs lost a disprportionately higher amount of pressure than the Colts footballs.

 

People keep quoting this and making it an issue when it's really not.  The ONLY thing that Exponent doesn't have an answer for was how much pressure was lost between the footballs being brought into the locker room at half time and testing.  He says, it's possible (though not likely) that the footballs still had not reached equilibrium from its outdoor pressure and when it was brought in at the time of testing.  But then it doesn't explain why the Colts footballs would have measured out okay.  If people would focus on the correct issues (and by people, I mean the talking heads), it would give better topics for debate, but its' clear that a lot of these guys didn't even read the report.

clearly the footballs are magic and also jealous of the Pats success...

[ColtsBlueFL]

Player discipline is covered by CBA, but the courts shred that all the time. I believe a suit from Kraft against the league would be an antitrust suit, and the courts love undermining the NFL's antitrust exemption.

I'm sort of playing devil's advocate, but not really. IMO, the NFL's authority in these matters is defined and established by word and by precedent. The player discipline and the team discipline should stand. We'll see.

 

Who knows!  Seems the courts don't want the NFL to be able to police itself.  Let the perps run free!  Even legal analyst have no idea what to expect.  I watched Lester Munson got through a whole scenario, and it appeared Brady's chances at success were limited.  Later watched Ryan Smith's take.  He brings up all sorts of scenarios that draw out the process and could even reduce the penalty.  Ultimately he says, draw it out so long it gets tossed completely.  He does recommend Brady to NOT file a defamation suit though, like Vilma tried.

[OffensivelyPC]

It baffles my mind that NFL issues become Federal issues.

Well, on the one hand, I agree.  If al we're talking about was, "is there proof of wrongdoing?", then yeah, there's no reason for this to be in federal court.  On the other hand, if it's, "did the employer follow the CBA in disciplining the employee?", then it's a different matter altogether.  If your employer doesn't provide you the rights your union collectively bargained for, you need to take it outside the employers jurisdiction to get a fair hearing.  That was the issue in Peterson and Rice - procedural fairness.  There was no question of wrongdoing, there was a question of whether they followed the CBA.  I hope that the Federal Court (in an effort to stop wasting anyone's time) basically says (EDIT: In the Peterson case), "look they suspended him under the wrong section of the CBA, but in any event, it was up to the Commissioners discretion" and basically overrules it in part, but doesn't change the action taken by the league.  That's what should happen anyway.

[OffensivelyPC]

clearly the footballs are magic and also jealous of the Pats success...

Yeah, the more I go through the report, the more I see people focusing on the wrong stuff.  The science is difficult to comprehend, but even if the talking heads went through the facts and then the conclusions they'd avoid so much unnecessary discussion.  

[pgt_rob]

It's funny how Patriot fans in this thread say Tom is guilty but yet they don't think he deserves punishment. Cracks me up.

[crazycolt1]

I've never heard of Peyton saying that? Part of my problem with condemning Brady is nothing adds up and we are now relying on quotes from people like Merriman and trusting lawyers? Something about Wells stinks big time. Wells integrity is questioned daily...why was it so upsetting for him this time? He's a freaking lawyer for Christ sake. This is just the beginning IMO. By the time this shakes out some deep dark secrets will have been unearthed. Fascinating to say the least.     

Nothing adds up? Are you serious? Look, I am not a rocket scientist but where there is smoke there is fire. If Brady had zero to hide then why not cooperate with the investigation and clear this matter up? He has not one time said the words I did not cheat. All he has said is I don't think so. He even said what's the big deal? This is not Isis and no one got killed with a huge smile on his face. That in itself shows arrogance. No matter what was done Isis and people getting killed is nothing to joke about. He was offered to have his cell phone and it's records looked at with himself and his lawyer present to protect anything non football related not to be made public knowledge. Kraft originally said he would accept any penalties handed out. That was a lie. Kraft must have thought the NFL wouldn't come down so hard because of his personal friendship with Goodell. If this does go to civil court you can be assured that Brady's phone records and the two ex employees will have subpoenas waiting for them. You might be 100% correct in your comment about some dark secrets being unearthed. But IMO it will not be good for the Patriots. What is very sad is the Patriots are a good enough team not to have bent, broke or pushed the rules to win games. Integrity to me is very important and the Patriots as a whole have not shown much of that. The even sadder part is a lot Patriots fans seem to lavish in that. Yes winning is great but at what cost? I would rather my team lose and hold their head up knowing they did their best within the sportsmanship of the game that to win knowing it was tainted.

[amfootball]

FYI - Pats have posted a detailed rebuttal of the Wells report, http://wellsreportcontext.com/

 

Game on!

[Gramz]

Cue:  OffensivelyPC and Bav  to translate the above.  

[corgi]

FYI - Pats have posted a detailed rebuttal of the Wells report, http://wellsreportcontext.com/

 

Game on!

Sure they did, but they still cheated. There's nothing they can say/do that will prove otherwise.

[SteelCityColt]

FYI - Pats have posted a detailed rebuttal of the Wells report, http://wellsreportcontext.com/

 

Game on!

 

Please tell me that you really aren't in the belief that nothing happened that was against the rules. 

[corgi]

Also there is less crap in a construction site portable toilet than in that rebuttal.

[corgi]

Please tell me that you really aren't in the belief that nothing happened that was against the rules. 

At this point she could say she believes witchcraft and Hobgoblins were involved and I wouldn't be surprised.

[PrincetonTiger]

Let the Litigation begin

[SteelCityColt]

At this point she could say she believes witchcraft and Hobgoblins were involved and I wouldn't be surprised.

 

As someone pointed out previously as the Wells' report doesn't specifically rule out aliens deflating the balls with cold rays from space then we have to consider this a possibility. 

[SteelCityColt]

Let the Litigation begin

 

Considering all the chatter about what a poor job Goodell has done and how this is damaging the league, a team taking on the league in what would no doubt be a lengthy and high profile litigation is far more damaging "to the Shield". 

[csmopar]

Since you read the whole report, did you find anything that directly links Brady to deflating of the footballs? I mean, are there text messages from/to Tom Brady found on McNally's or Jastremski's phone?

I just have a feeling that at the end, Brady will not be punished. That would be terrible.

Text messages from Brady himself, no, because he wouldn't turn over that data....

But as a trained investigator, there's enough pieces of the picture in that report to fill in the blanks with a high rate of certainty.

[buccolts]

Text messages from Brady himself, no, because he wouldn't turn over that data....

But as a trained investigator, there's enough pieces of the picture in that report to fill in the blanks with a high rate of certainty.

 

No texts received FROM Brady, by either party?

[buccolts]

I've never heard of Peyton saying that? Part of my problem with condemning Brady is nothing adds up and we are now relying on quotes from people like Merriman and trusting lawyers? Something about Wells stinks big time. Wells integrity is questioned daily...why was it so upsetting for him this time? He's a freaking lawyer for Christ sake. This is just the beginning IMO. By the time this shakes out some deep dark secrets will have been unearthed. Fascinating to say the least.     

 

By whom?......So we can consider the source.

[18Manning]

Oh no doubt it brings up some speculation.....all I was saying to Dynasty is that is entirely irrelivant for most people...it was all the other stuff I outlined was reason enough to punish and for people to be upset. We don't even have to try to prove all the other...we don't need to prove it effected the game or even the balls were that much underinflated etc. The evidence is that rule were broken. Balls stolen, altered, Pats workers did it, Brady knew about it (maybe told them to do it), and everyone lied and tried to cover up and even called out the LEAGUE in this. Thats enough for the suspension/penalties etc. We don't need to go into all the games effected blah blah blah....but I understand you feel that way.

 

Agreed. I apologize as I didn't read your entire post. I latched on to the "effected games" comment and went with that. One game with an illegal/non-allowed competitive edge can affect much more than the game at hand. Obviously, many games over years would potentially compound the benefits.

[Gramz]

By whom?......So we can consider the source.

Well now, you know the answer to this already...... don't you?

 

It's the same people that were completely fine with him doing the investigation, until of course, it didn't go in their favor.

[Superman]

LOL

 

1) The rebuttal denies that either Jastremski or McNally did anything wrong, on several grounds (I don't agree with them so far, but whatever). If neither did anything wrong, why did the Patriots suspend both of them?

 

2) "The deflator" refers to McNally's attempt to lose weight. LOLOLOLOL

 

3) No one saw McNally with a needle, therefore, it can't be proved that he ever had one (even though the rebuttal states that he would bring a needle and sometimes two to the officials locker room so that the officials could test footballs before the game; the Wells report states that officials bring their own gauge and needle for testing). As jskinnz would say, dear God...

 

4) The Colts violated the rules by testing the intercepted football on the sideline, because only the refs can test footballs once the game starts... nice try. The football was a memento, and was taken out of play. The Colts could do whatever they wanted with that football on the sideline, except put it back in play.

[PrincetonTiger]

LOL

 

1) The rebuttal denies that either Jastremski or McNally did anything wrong, on several grounds (I don't agree with them so far, but whatever). If neither did anything wrong, why did the Patriots suspend both of them?

 

2) "The deflator" refers to McNally's attempt to lose weight. LOLOLOLOL

 

3) No one saw McNally with a needle, therefore, it can't be proved that he ever had one (even though the rebuttal states that he would bring a needle and sometimes two to the officials locker room so that the officials could test footballs before the game; the Wells report states that officials bring their own gauge and needle for testing). 

 

4) The Colts violated the rules by testing the intercepted football on the sideline, because only the refs can test footballs once the game starts... nice try. The football was a memento, and was taken out of play. The Colts could do whatever they wanted with that football on the sideline.

Sounds like they are grasping at straws

[Gramz]

LOL

 

1) The rebuttal denies that either Jastremski or McNally did anything wrong, on several grounds (I don't agree with them so far, but whatever). If neither did anything wrong, why did the Patriots suspend both of them?

 

2) "The deflator" refers to McNally's attempt to lose weight. LOLOLOLOL

 

3) No one saw McNally with a needle, therefore, it can't be proved that he ever had one (even though the rebuttal states that he would bring a needle and sometimes two to the officials locker room so that the officials could test footballs before the game; the Wells report states that officials bring their own gauge and needle for testing). As jskinnz would say, dear God...

 

4) The Colts violated the rules by testing the intercepted football on the sideline, because only the refs can test footballs once the game starts... nice try. The football was a memento, and was taken out of play. The Colts could do whatever they wanted with that football on the sideline.

Thanks Sup.  No way I was going to waste my time reading any of that document.  Thanks for pointing out some "highlights"   I am sure it is pages of more of the same.

[Superman]

Thanks Sup.  No way I was going to waste my time reading any of that document.  Thanks for pointing out some "highlights"   I am sure it is pages of more of the same.

 

Here's another little tidbit:

 

According to this rebuttal, when McNally says he's not going to ESPN yet, it's a reference to Jastremski giving him shoes. In other words, McNally is saying 'you're not supposed to give me these shoes, but don't worry, I'm not going to tell a major sports media company that one low level employee is giving a lower level employee some shoes that have zero significance to anyone.' Yeah, that seems likely... LOL

[PrincetonTiger]

Here's another little tidbit:

 

According to this rebuttal, when McNally says he's not going to ESPN yet, it's a reference to Jastremski giving him shoes. In other words, McNally is saying 'you're not supposed to give me these shoes, but don't worry, I'm not going to tell a major sports media company that one low level employee is giving a lower level employee some shoes that have zero significance to anyone.' Yeah, that seems likely... LOL

Wow

[Gramz]

Here's another little tidbit:

 

According to this rebuttal, when McNally says he's not going to ESPN yet, it's a reference to Jastremski giving him shoes. In other words, McNally is saying 'you're not supposed to give me these shoes, but don't worry, I'm not going to tell a major sports media company that one low level employee is giving a lower level employee some shoes that have zero significance to anyone.' Yeah, that seems likely... LOL

PRICELESS.    They really do think the rest of the country are a bunch of imbecile's that will believe anything they spew...

[PeterBowman]

wow the Pats are really digging the hole deeper here.

 

Please use those arguments in court.....puuuuuhleeeaaaaze

[Leon]

Here's another little tidbit:

 

According to this rebuttal, when McNally says he's not going to ESPN yet, it's a reference to Jastremski giving him shoes. In other words, McNally is saying 'you're not supposed to give me these shoes, but don't worry, I'm not going to tell a major sports media company that one low level employee is giving a lower level employee some shoes that have zero significance to anyone.' Yeah, that seems likely... LOL

 

     

[OffensivelyPC]

The hiring of Mr. Wells and his law firm followed the written notice to the Patriots (on the day after the AFC Championship Game) that the League had already made a “preliminary finding” that the Patriots may have tampered with the pressure of the footballs. See January 18, 2015 Letter from D. Gardi. League personnel, thus, with no basis and no understanding of the effect of temperature on psi, had already prejudged the issues.

 

Since when did "Patriots may have tampered" equate to "prejudgment?"

[Gramz]

The hiring of Mr. Wells and his law firm followed the written notice to the Patriots (on the day after the AFC Championship Game) that the League had already made a “preliminary finding” that the Patriots may have tampered with the pressure of the footballs. See January 18, 2015 Letter from D. Gardi. League personnel, thus, with no basis and no understanding of the effect of temperature on psi, had already prejudged the issues.

 

Since when did "Patriots may have tampered" equate to "prejudgment?"

I am convinced Brady's attorney is not very bright.  It seems to me, the more he talks, the worse he makes things for Tom.