Brady suspended four games, Pats fined and docked two draft picks (Mega Merge)

[Girlzarefanstoo]

NAPTOWNCLOWN, on 13 May 2015 - 1:03 PM, said:

Crazy...over some air. 

It's not over some air. It's over purposely breaking the rules and trying to cover it up, no matter how trivial the rule is perceived to be.

It's this simple - if you think a rule is stupid, irrelevant or just don't like the rule, you lobby to change that rule.  

 

If you don't want every other team to have the advantage that you are taking you don't lobby for the rules to be changed, you sneak around, steal balls, deflate them and then play your games as though nothing has happened.  Maybe/probably for years on end.  That is what people are up in arms about not "just a little air."

[CLOWN]

Has anyone heard a peep out of BB yet?

 

I'm pretty certain from his history that he'll make one statement about it and then it's "On to Cincinnati". From what I understand he was completely cleared of any involvement. 

[18Manning]

Civil Court has a much lower threshold

 

Many of you are more familiar with courts and legal proceedings than I am. Obviously, this isn't a criminal matter, so then it would be judged in a civil court?

[Superman]

 

NAPTOWNCLOWN, on 13 May 2015 - 1:03 PM, said:

It's this simple - if you think a rule is stupid, irrelevant or just don't like the rule, you lobby to change that rule.  

 

If you don't want every other team to have the advantage that you are taking you don't lobby for the rules to be changed, you sneak around, steal balls, deflate them and then play your games as though nothing has happened.  Maybe/probably for years on end.  That is what people are up in arms about not "just a little air."

 

 

That's exactly what Manning and Brady did, as a matter of fact. They didn't like that the footballs weren't allowed to be conditioned before they were used in a game, so they lobbied the other QBs in the league and eventually submitted a proposal to the competition committee, which is rare (unprecedented?) You don't just circumvent the rules.

[PeterBowman]

just curious......if it does go to court and more stuff comes out that proves it's been going on far longer than what they thought, can Brady have his punishment increased? (barring it's not overturned)

[18Manning]

 

NAPTOWNCLOWN, on 13 May 2015 - 1:03 PM, said:

It's this simple - if you think a rule is stupid, irrelevant or just don't like the rule, you lobby to change that rule.  

 

If you don't want every other team to have the advantage that you are taking you don't lobby for the rules to be changed, you sneak around, steal balls, deflate them and then play your games as though nothing has happened.  Maybe/probably for years on end.  That is what people are up in arms about not "just a little air."

 

 

There's a good chance.

[OffensivelyPC]

Does anyone know, if/when this goes to court, what is the standard of proof (for a lack of a better description) for that court? i.e. in a criminal court, someone can get away if there's the slightest of doubt. Civil court is different.

It depends on what you mean when you say "if/when this goes to court."  If we are talking about appealing the suspensions, it will be the same standard of proof as was used in the basis for making the suspension - in other words, preponderance of the evidence (same as civil court).  If we are talking procedural errors, that takes on a bit of a different question and will likely be informed by US case law and it will depend on the context of the issues raised.  Let's say I am right and one of the procedural challenges was whether the suspension/fines against the patriots exceeded the NFL's authority on the grounds that the Patriots did not "fully cooperate" with the investigation.  The law of that state might have some other fancy jargon or something, but for simplicity's sake, we'll assume that the element at issue is the Patriots level of cooperation.  It depends on the law, which might require the Patriots to comply with every request, absent some exception (duplicative request, harrasment, etc).  It might only require them to "reasonably cooperate."  There could be some burden of proof that lays somewhere in between reasonable and full cooperation.  Just depends.   I still fall back on my assertion, at least against Brady that, if you are offered to be able to pre-screen texts and send basically, any responsive texts you find appropriate in your absolute discretion, and not have to turn your phone over to boot, there's no court that I could think of that would find that to satisfy reasonable or full cooperation.

[PrincetonTiger]

Many of you are more familiar with courts and legal proceedings than I am. Obviously, this isn't a criminal matter, so then it would be judged in a civil court?

Yes

[dynasty13]

11 Pats balls were measured and 4 Colts balls at halftime. Each done twice (two officials, and two gauges)

 

All 11 were under both times.  Only 1 of the 22 measurements were above 12 PSI, but still short of minimum.

 

Of the eight measurements of Colts balls, 5 of 8 still legal.  3 of eight under inflated, but between 12 - 12.5 PSI, so very close.

 

The 12.15, 12.30, and 12.35 are the ones under 12.5.

 

So what I hear on NFL Sirius XM radio?  3 out of 4 Colts balls were deflated too!  That has been the tactic of many a Pats fan.  But reading the Whole Report, one has a better understanding.  Picking and choosing pieces falls apart quickly.  In the report it states no Colts balls were inflated at halftime because all 4 passed on at least one of the gauges.  While talking head mention our balls were illegal too.  There's a lot of disinformation regarding this report and its findings. TrVth.

 

I'll do my best to explain what Patriots fans (or in this case NFL Sirius XM Radio) are talking about when they make this point. 

 

There were two gauges used at different times...their readings had a difference of approximately .4 PSI.

 

If before the game New England's balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 12.5 but Walt Anderson used the higher reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 12.1 PSI even though the higher gauge read 12.5 PSI.

 

If before the game the Colts balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 13.0 but Walt Anderson used the lower reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 13.4 PSI even though the lower gauge read 13.0 PSI. Follow so far?

 

Walt Anderson could not recall which gauge was used when he measured each team's footballs before the game, so that is scenario is entirely plausible.

 

Here's where it gets interesting. When 4 of the Colts balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .05 PSI and .85 PSI...which averages out to .56 of PSI lost. When the Patriots balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .25 PSI and 1.6 PSI...but that is over the span of 11 balls. What if the 4 Colts balls that were measure just happened to be 4 that were on the lower amount of PSI loss? If we take the measurements of 4 of the lower measured balls for the Patriots, do you know what that averages out to? 

 

.57 PSI lost

 

The Colts balls average loss was .56 PSI...and since there is no way to know what the remainder of the Colts balls would have measured had they not run out of time, you simply cant discount the possibility that the 4 they happened to measure could have been on the lower end of PSI loss.

[OffensivelyPC]

Take Ray Rice. Let's say the DA decides to charge him with simple battery, he pleads guilty, they give him a suspended sentence and probation. Then the DA gets video of the incident, and it's far worse than what they believed. They can charge him with aggravated battery after the fact. Am I wrong about that? That's basically what the NFL did. Regardless, since when does double jeopardy apply to employers and employees?

 

Adrian Peterson. The NFL instituted a new policy for handling domestic violence. But the NFL had no clearly defined policy before that; cases were handled under the more broad "conduct detrimental" policy. There was no set amount of games a player could be suspended, it was at the commissioner's discretion. So how can you argue that the NFL doesn't have the authority to hold Peterson to the same parameters as the new policy, just because the new policy wasn't in place yet? Another example of the courts holding the NFL to a higher, criminal proceeding standard, when this authority was agreed to through collective bargaining. The CBA says that the commissioner doesn't need a specific domestic violence policy; the commissioner can penalize a player for a "conduct detrimental" violation at the commissioner's discretion. The minutiae seems immaterial. Either the NFL has the authority to mete out punishment, or it doesn't. I don't see why the courts get to nitpick the method of punishment in each instance.

 

Double Jeopardy is not just a criminal concept, but it's a legal concept that has generally applied to punishment in general.  Double jeopardy principles have been adopted in employment law settings.  While they can be applied a bit differently, the basic thing for DJ in the employment setting is, once you've been punished for an act or set of acts, that's it.  If you learn new information after the fact, you may/may not be increase the punishment or suspend further.  There's exceptions and applications across the board that are frankly, outside my expertise.  Suffice it to say, if all the NFL knew before disciplining him was that Rice hit his wife, and then they saw the video and increased the suspension, that's punishing twice for the same offense.  No new information or infraction was discovered when watching the video, it only put an image to what they already knew and suspened him for.

 

On Peterson, consider that one of those technicality type of rulings (at least this is what I am recalling and believe in the quick research to recollect my memory).  If the NFL had disciplined him indefinitely under the "established precedent", i.e. conduct detrimental, the league might have been okay.  There would have been a discussion aout what that "precedent" was, and cited a bunch of similar cases in the name of fairness, but the authority to discipline woudln't have been the issue.  It is ridiculous to me, as well, that you could suspend under one provision of the CBA or a new policy under the CBA and come out with the same punishment, just to have the ruling overturned for using the incorrect provision/policy.  It's all the same power, if you ask me, and I'm not sure why the NFLPA fought it so hard other than in hopes for AP to have a lesser suspension, or perhaps they would rather fight the new DV policy another day on a set of facts that don't include an admission of guilt by the player.  Who knows, I just know that the NFL had the power to suspend, they just disciplined with their left hand instead of their right.  Stupid, but (possibly) correct.

 

PS As if this weren't good timing - the NFLPA just filed their brief in response to the NFL for the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals.  Arguments won't be until October, probably with a decision coming several months after that, but funny timing nonetheless.

[Girlzarefanstoo]

I'll do my best to explain what Patriots fans (or in this case NFL Sirius XM Radio) are talking about when they make this point. 

 

There were two gauges used at different times...their readings had a difference of approximately .4 PSI.

 

If before the game New England's balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 12.5 but Walt Anderson used the higher reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 12.1 PSI even though the higher gauge read 12.5 PSI.

 

If before the game the Colts balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 13.0 but Walt Anderson used the lower reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 13.4 PSI even though the lower gauge read 13.0 PSI. Follow so far?

 

Walt Anderson could not recall which gauge was used when he measured each team's footballs before the game, so that is scenario is entirely plausible.

 

Here's where it gets interesting. When 4 of the Colts balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .05 PSI and .85 PSI...which averages out to .56 of PSI lost. When the Patriots balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .25 PSI and 1.6 PSI...but that is over the span of 11 balls. What if the 4 Colts balls that were measure just happened to be 4 that were on the lower amount of PSI loss? If we take the measurements of 4 of the lower measured balls for the Patriots, do you know what that averages out to? 

 

.57 PSI lost

 

The Colts balls average loss was .56 PSI...and since there is no way to know what the remainder of the Colts balls would have measured had they not run out of time, you simply cant discount the possibility that the 4 they happened to measure could have been on the lower end of PSI loss.

Two issues for me.  None of the above explains in one iota the illegal possession of the balls taken against the rules out of the ref's locker room.  None of the above explains the nickname "the deflator" from early in 2014.  None of the above explains the comment, "I haven't gone to ESPN, yet!"  If I were sitting on a jury these would be the kind of issues that would likely decide it for me.  By the way, I really am as neutral and objective as I can be.  Not a Colts fan.  Not a Patriots hater.  Just a football lover.

 

All the information above, quite frankly, I see as a desperate reaching for straws.  If... if... if...   I personally don't find it that interesting.  In general, the simplest solution is likely the most accurate.  I don't do probability and statistics, but for all of the elements to line up (gauge #1 on team #1, gauge #2 on team #2) would likely push it much higher into a low probability.  

[dynasty13]

Two issues for me.  None of the above explains in one iota the illegal possession of the balls taken against the rules out of the refs locker room.  None of the above explains the nickname "the deflator" from early in 2014.  None of the above explains the comment, "I haven't gone to ESPN, yet!"  If I were sitting on a jury these would be the kind of issues that would likely decide it for me.  By the way, I really am as neutral and objective as I can be.  Not a Colts fan.  Not a Patriots hater.  Just a football lover.

 

All the information above, quite frankly, I see as a desperate reaching for straws.  If... if... if...   I don't do probability and statistics, but for all of the elements to line up (gauge #1 on team #1, gauge #2 on team #2) would likely push it much higher into a low probability.  

 

Absolutely agree with your first part...and I'm not attempting to justify any of those issues at all. I just wanted to explain why some were questioning that aspect of the investigation...I personally dont think its that outrageous to believe that one gauge could have been used for one team while another gauge could have been used for the other, the probability of that happened actually wouldnt be complicated at all...and if that was the case, well then the numbers are described arent as damning as originally assumed.

[dgambill]

Facts and truth aren't suspended or somehow unattainable just because bias exists. 

Nope...your right. Just thought I would share that the facts can mean two different things to two different people. It might seem to only make sense that you come to one conclusion from the facts but we see everyday that different people can come to two separate conclusions. It might seem to not make sense but its entirely possible and I think we should all respect that or at least understand that many are just not likely going to agree and let things go. Not just talking to Colts fans...I'm talking to Pats fans too. I think some people are predisposed to believe the report here and others believe the report didn't prove beyond all doubt (which is the only way they will accept it). It is what it is and no amount of arguing on either side is going to change those beliefs. I doubt anyone on here hasn't made up their mind one way or another about this situation and is going to change their opinion...so the arguing is pretty much futile. Facts are facts...and I probably see them the same way as you do...but I gotta understand that not everyone is going to do that...and no matter if I try to explain it to them until I'm blue in the face they never will. A jury let OJ off....other trials....etc etc....all the facts were laid out...trial after trial I'm sure some people couldn't figure out why but some just see it different. We've discussed it beyond belief. Some are just coming in here to pick a fight...or continue arguing and it isn't going to change. Hopefully it all stays in this thread because it would be a shame to effect other threads. For that matter I'm very happy the mods have kept it fairly civil....but I'm sure this is just the beginning....long haul from here on out.

[jvan1973]

I'll do my best to explain what Patriots fans (or in this case NFL Sirius XM Radio) are talking about when they make this point.

There were two gauges used at different times...their readings had a difference of approximately .4 PSI.

If before the game New England's balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 12.5 but Walt Anderson used the higher reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 12.1 PSI even though the higher gauge read 12.5 PSI.

If before the game the Colts balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 13.0 but Walt Anderson used the lower reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 13.4 PSI even though the lower gauge read 13.0 PSI. Follow so far?

Walt Anderson could not recall which gauge was used when he measured each team's footballs before the game, so that is scenario is entirely plausible.

Here's where it gets interesting. When 4 of the Colts balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .05 PSI and .85 PSI...which averages out to .56 of PSI lost. When the Patriots balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .25 PSI and 1.6 PSI...but that is over the span of 11 balls. What if the 4 Colts balls that were measure just happened to be 4 that were on the lower amount of PSI loss? If we take the measurements of 4 of the lower measured balls for the Patriots, do you know what that averages out to?

.57 PSI lost

The Colts balls average loss was .56 PSI...and since there is no way to know what the remainder of the Colts balls would have measured had they not run out of time, you simply cant discount the possibility that the 4 they happened to measure could have been on the lower end of PSI loss.

Then I guess the entire pats organization should have cooperated then. Would have saved them some draft picks and money.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

[csmopar]

Shaun Merriman on FS1 saying that teams have known that the Pats have been cheating and the league has ignored it for years.....

 

Said that when in the locker room at Gillette, they'd pass around cards with what the plans were because they were afraid the Pats were bugging the locker rooms 

[Girlzarefanstoo]

Shaun Merriman on FS1 saying that teams have known that the Pats have been cheating and the league has ignored it for years.....

 

Said that when in the locker room at Gillette, they'd pass around cards with what the plans were because they were afraid the Pats were bugging the locker rooms 

If this is true (and it may only be their worries, not reflective of the facts) it's a sad state of affairs.

 

I'm most upset at the "don't be a snitch" mentality of our culture.  If someone is cheating/stealing/committed other crimes, they bring the punishment on themselves.  The "snitch" just tells the truth.  

 

I do hope that anyone that knows anything concrete and witnessed anything firsthand will come forward.  It's well past time for the cleaning up of the league.  And that goes for any team, not just piling on the pats.

[csmopar]

If this is true (and it may only be their worries, not reflective of the facts) it's a sad state of affairs.

 

I'm most upset at the "don't be a snitch" mentality of our culture.  If someone is cheating/stealing/committed other crimes, they bring the punishment on themselves.  The "snitch" just tells the truth.  

 

I do hope that anyone that knows anything concrete and witnessed anything firsthand will come forward.  It's well past time for the cleaning up of the league.  And that goes for any team, not just piling on the pats.

I agree. I have no proof and I doubt Shaun Merriman does either. Sadly, i doubt we ever will know

[ricker182]

Shaun Merriman on FS1 saying that teams have known that the Pats have been cheating and the league has ignored it for years.....

 

Said that when in the locker room at Gillette, they'd pass around cards with what the plans were because they were afraid the Pats were bugging the locker rooms 

Manning has been saying that for years.   

  

I believe him. No tinfoil necessary.

[dgambill]

I'll do my best to explain what Patriots fans (or in this case NFL Sirius XM Radio) are talking about when they make this point. 

 

There were two gauges used at different times...their readings had a difference of approximately .4 PSI.

 

If before the game New England's balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 12.5 but Walt Anderson used the higher reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 12.1 PSI even though the higher gauge read 12.5 PSI.

 

If before the game the Colts balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 13.0 but Walt Anderson used the lower reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 13.4 PSI even though the lower gauge read 13.0 PSI. Follow so far?

 

Walt Anderson could not recall which gauge was used when he measured each team's footballs before the game, so that is scenario is entirely plausible.

 

Here's where it gets interesting. When 4 of the Colts balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .05 PSI and .85 PSI...which averages out to .56 of PSI lost. When the Patriots balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .25 PSI and 1.6 PSI...but that is over the span of 11 balls. What if the 4 Colts balls that were measure just happened to be 4 that were on the lower amount of PSI loss? If we take the measurements of 4 of the lower measured balls for the Patriots, do you know what that averages out to? 

 

.57 PSI lost

 

The Colts balls average loss was .56 PSI...and since there is no way to know what the remainder of the Colts balls would have measured had they not run out of time, you simply cant discount the possibility that the 4 they happened to measure could have been on the lower end of PSI loss.

I think in the end it isn't going to be how much the balls were altered....its the fact that they were stolen out of the locker room...taken into a restroom and altered. The guys admitted (through texts back and forth) that they were doing this and were doing it because Brady was telling them to. I don't think it really matters how much under, how much they took out, how much it effects the play on the field...its more the fact that they stole the balls and took air out and have been doing it after the officials have checked them. The blatently are breaking the rules and Tom was the one telling them to do it based off his communications with them. Add the lying and cover up...well thats what upsets people. Some may be arguing it effected games etc...to me it isn't about that...its about knowingly breaking the rules, lying, and trying to get an advantage no matter how small it might be. To me I believe this is Belichecks fault. He has opperated a team that wants to flirt with the rules....get as close to breaking or bending them as possible and sometimes he has (spygate which to me yes he broke rules and I know some believe that wasn't) so your players witness that...believe that is ok for them to go off and behave and do things on their own. It isn't about how much advantage...it isn't about how much under the balls were etc. They stole them...they altered them...they lied...they covered up....they deserve to be punished. It may be an extreme punishment...but to me its the actions after altering...not even so much the altering that the punishment is for. We all know if you fess up and own up typically the punishment is lighter...but when you lie etc...momma bear isnt happy and you make the league look even worse calling them out etc...so yeah...your going to get a bigger whoop'in.

[Hoosier]

Shaun Merriman on FS1 saying that teams have known that the Pats have been cheating and the league has ignored it for years.....

 

Said that when in the locker room at Gillette, they'd pass around cards with what the plans were because they were afraid the Pats were bugging the locker rooms

I remember reading an article after this whole thing broke (can't begin to remember where it was) that said visiting teams bring their own locks to Gillette for the visitor's offices because they know things will be copied and/or taken.

[18Manning]

I think in the end it isn't going to be how much the balls were altered....its the fact that they were stolen out of the locker room...taken into a restroom and altered. The guys admitted (through texts back and forth) that they were doing this and were doing it because Brady was telling them to. I don't think it really matters how much under, how much they took out, how much it effects the play on the field...its more the fact that they stole the balls and took air out and have been doing it after the officials have checked them. The blatently are breaking the rules and Tom was the one telling them to do it based off his communications with them. Add the lying and cover up...well thats what upsets people. Some may be arguing it effected games etc...to me it isn't about that...its about knowingly breaking the rules, lying, and trying to get an advantage no matter how small it might be. To me I believe this is Belichecks fault. He has opperated a team that wants to flirt with the rules....get as close to breaking or bending them as possible and sometimes he has (spygate which to me yes he broke rules and I know some believe that wasn't) so your players witness that...believe that is ok for them to go off and behave and do things on their own. It isn't about how much advantage...it isn't about how much under the balls were etc. They stole them...they altered them...they lied...they covered up....they deserve to be punished. It may be an extreme punishment...but to me its the actions after altering...not even so much the altering that the punishment is for. We all know if you fess up and own up typically the punishment is lighter...but when you lie etc...momma bear isnt happy and you make the league look even worse calling them out etc...so yeah...your going to get a bigger whoop'in.

 

I agree regarding lying, breaking rules, etc. I also don't think the Colts would have won the game had the balls been pumped to regulation. However, if this has occurred in other games, close games, that edge could have made a difference. i.e. the NE vs Baltimore game prior to Colts vs NE. That was a close game. If Baltimore wins, we have the Championship game at home and have fared well against Baltimore as of late. Maybe we're in the SB. That's only 1 game and that's assuming NE cheated. NE doesn't always blow every opponent out of the park. An edge may have won a few games for them over the years (assuming this has gone on years). I realize there are what ifs and maybes, but NE cheated. It's not my fault, or anyone else's fault we're pondering the possibilities.

[dgambill]

I agree regarding lying, breaking rules, etc. I also don't think the Colts would have won the game had the balls been pumped to regulation. However, if this has occurred in other games, close games, that edge could have made a difference. i.e. the NE vs Baltimore game prior to Colts vs NE. That was a close game. If Baltimore wins, we have the Championship game at home and have fared well against Baltimore as of late. Maybe we're in the SB. That's only 1 game and that's assuming NE cheated. NE doesn't always blow every opponent out of the park. An edge may have won a few games for them over the years (assuming this has gone on years). I realize there are what ifs and maybes, but NE cheated. It's not my fault, or anyone else's fault we're pondering the possibilities.

Oh no doubt it brings up some speculation.....all I was saying to Dynasty is that is entirely irrelivant for most people...it was all the other stuff I outlined was reason enough to punish and for people to be upset. We don't even have to try to prove all the other...we don't need to prove it effected the game or even the balls were that much underinflated etc. The evidence is that rule were broken. Balls stolen, altered, Pats workers did it, Brady knew about it (maybe told them to do it), and everyone lied and tried to cover up and even called out the LEAGUE in this. Thats enough for the suspension/penalties etc. We don't need to go into all the games effected blah blah blah....but I understand you feel that way.

[ReMeDy]

Question: If Brady takes this to a higher court of law (somehow), won't he be FORCED to turn over his cellphone, and if he does, could he somehow find a way to purge all the evidence on it? I understand on some hard drives, data is retained even after deletion. Does the same hold true on cell phone?

[Superman]

I'll do my best to explain what Patriots fans (or in this case NFL Sirius XM Radio) are talking about when they make this point. 

 

There were two gauges used at different times...their readings had a difference of approximately .4 PSI.

 

If before the game New England's balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 12.5 but Walt Anderson used the higher reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 12.1 PSI even though the higher gauge read 12.5 PSI.

 

If before the game the Colts balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 13.0 but Walt Anderson used the lower reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 13.4 PSI even though the lower gauge read 13.0 PSI. Follow so far?

 

Walt Anderson could not recall which gauge was used when he measured each team's footballs before the game, so that is scenario is entirely plausible.

 

Here's where it gets interesting. When 4 of the Colts balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .05 PSI and .85 PSI...which averages out to .56 of PSI lost. When the Patriots balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .25 PSI and 1.6 PSI...but that is over the span of 11 balls. What if the 4 Colts balls that were measure just happened to be 4 that were on the lower amount of PSI loss? If we take the measurements of 4 of the lower measured balls for the Patriots, do you know what that averages out to? 

 

.57 PSI lost

 

The Colts balls average loss was .56 PSI...and since there is no way to know what the remainder of the Colts balls would have measured had they not run out of time, you simply cant discount the possibility that the 4 they happened to measure could have been on the lower end of PSI loss.

 

How plausible is that? In no particular order, you have to assume:

• The refs used different gauges to test each team's footballs before the game (the report doesn't suggest that the refs used two gauges)
• The refs used only the high gauge to test the Colts footballs, and only the low gauge to test the Patriots footballs (it could easily have been the other way around)
• Anderson's recollection -- which he wouldn't commit to -- was wrong, and backward, when he said he thinks he knows which gauge he used
• The 8 Colts footballs the refs didn't have time to test at halftime had lost the amount of pressure that you suggest they did, which is based on an arbitrary figure that you can't possibly stipulate, and which is outside of the norm established by the 4 footballs that were tested

You say it's entirely plausible. I disagree.

 

And, as was mentioned, we have video evidence of McNally taking the footballs into the restroom. We know that he didn't receive authorization to take the footballs, much less to an unauthorized area with no supervision. We know that he is not responsible for or authorized to inflate or deflate footballs for the team, yet he calls himself "the deflator." And we know that he stated that he would be receiving a needle from Jastremski (asked jokingly for a pump to be attached to it). 

 

Occam's Razor. What's far more plausible -- based on the measurements before the game and at halftime, and the text messages, and the tests regarding the effect of temperature on air pressure, and the testing that was done to see whether 12 footballs could be tampered with in a minute and forty seconds, and the fact that McNally disappeared the footballs -- is that McNally took the footballs into the restroom and let air out of them after they had been approved by the refs.

 

I'm not sure we need to go any further than that, really. Even if McNally had only let a little air out of the footballs, and they technically were still above 12.5 PSI, that's still a major violation. One that McNally and Jastremski lied about, and one that Kraft would have us believe never happened.

[Superman]

I agree. I have no proof and I doubt Shaun Merriman does either. Sadly, i doubt we ever will know

 

And this is why the NFL didn't go out of their way to do anything about Grigson's ball tampering complaint. They probably get complaints about teams every week, especially against the Patriots. You can't go chasing after ghosts.

 

Also, Grigson waited until the day before the game to send this email to the league. He might have emailed them earlier in the year, but I didn't see anything about that in the report. He didn't really give them a bunch of time to get to the bottom of it before the game.

[NFLfan]

I have. Including the one legal expert calling for federal charges of bribery for brady....not that I think that should happen but if it were, it could get ugly very ugly, real quick for both the league and Brady.

That seems excessive. Why bribery?

[BlueShoe]

I'll do my best to explain....

Explain why McNally "the deflator" took the patriots footballs in the bathroom and treated them like they were heroin addicts.

[csmopar]

That seems excessive. Why bribery?

From the interview, basically what I gathered from it is based on the text messages and McNally asking for and receiving gifts in exchange for his role in deflategate. The "expert" said because of that, a case could be made for it to fall under the 1970 law regarding sports bribery. If you scroll down from my first post on this, somewhere is the quote from the section regarding such. It's open to interpretation but I can see where a case could be made as well. But I'm no lawyer.

Wow...is right. Look up the Racketeering Influence and Corruption organziation act of 1970.... it is possible.

There's one line that stands out to me I this law.

"Sports bridery is defined as any action involving in an exchange of goods, monies, property or sevices in exchange for the conduction of act that alters and prevents a fair outcome of a sporting event, professional or amateur; including the exchange of goods, monies, property or services in an attempt hide or conceal an act of altering or preventing a fair outcome of a sporting event......"

This law is huge though, several hundred pages and I'm just skimming it so it may be better defined further in...

[ColtsBlueFL]

I'll do my best to explain what Patriots fans (or in this case NFL Sirius XM Radio) are talking about when they make this point. 

 

There were two gauges used at different times...their readings had a difference of approximately .4 PSI.

 

If before the game New England's balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 12.5 but Walt Anderson used the higher reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 12.1 PSI even though the higher gauge read 12.5 PSI.

 

If before the game the Colts balls were inflated to a desired PSI of 13.0 but Walt Anderson used the lower reading gauge, then the balls actually would have been inflated to 13.4 PSI even though the lower gauge read 13.0 PSI. Follow so far?

 

Walt Anderson could not recall which gauge was used when he measured each team's footballs before the game, so that is scenario is entirely plausible.

 

Here's where it gets interesting. When 4 of the Colts balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .05 PSI and .85 PSI...which averages out to .56 of PSI lost. When the Patriots balls were measured at halftime, they had lost between .25 PSI and 1.6 PSI...but that is over the span of 11 balls. What if the 4 Colts balls that were measure just happened to be 4 that were on the lower amount of PSI loss? If we take the measurements of 4 of the lower measured balls for the Patriots, do you know what that averages out to? 

 

.57 PSI lost

 

The Colts balls average loss was .56 PSI...and since there is no way to know what the remainder of the Colts balls would have measured had they not run out of time, you simply cant discount the possibility that the 4 they happened to measure could have been on the lower end of PSI loss.

 

I followed and my My Bull Spit meter blew off the chart.  Anderson did NOT use the Higher reading gauge on Pats Balls, then switch to the lower reading gauge for Colts Balls. 

 

To settle this, let's play coin toss.  1 try final!!  Heads I win... Tails you lose...

[NFLfan]

From the interview, basically what I gathered from it is based on the text messages and McNally asking for and receiving gifts in exchange for his role in deflategate. The "expert" said because of that, a case could be made for it to fall under the 1970 law regarding sports bribery. If you scroll down from my first post on this, somewhere is the quote from the section regarding such. It's open to interpretation but I can see where a case could be made as well. But I'm no lawyer.

Ah. I got it. Thank you.

I must confess that I have not read the entire report -- I don't have the time. However, from the little snippets I have read here and there and what I have heard on the radio, it seems like it was McNally who was guilty of bribery. It seems like he was asking for gifts rather than him being offered gifts for deflating the balls. In addition, in those text messages, Jastremski never names Brady. McNally seems to go above and beyond to name Brady. Just my impression.

Having said that I do believe that Brady has been doing this for a while and those guys deflated those balls at his request. He should sit out those 4 games.

Now, on appeal, can he plead ignorance? Can he argue that he did not know anything about PSI levels and since the league allowed QBs to alter the balls to each QB's liking, he had no way of knowing that the balls were actually under-inflated? He could say he never asked McNally to alter the balls after they were checked and approved by the refs. I don't know...just thinking out loud.

[BlueShoe]

Wow...is right. Look up the Racketeering Influence and Corruption organziation act of 1970.... it is possible.

There's one line that stands out to me I this law.

"Sports bridery is defined as any action involving in an exchange of goods, monies, property or sevices in exchange for the conduction of act that alters and prevents a fair outcome of a sporting event, professional or amateur; including the exchange of goods, monies, property or services in an attempt hide or conceal an act of altering or preventing a fair outcome of a sporting event......"

This law is huge though, several hundred pages and I'm just skimming it so it may be better defined further in...

Damn. I never thought about it like that.

Wow!

[ColtsBlueFL]

Absolutely agree with your first part...and I'm not attempting to justify any of those issues at all. I just wanted to explain why some were questioning that aspect of the investigation...I personally dont think its that outrageous to believe that one gauge could have been used for one team while another gauge could have been used for the other, the probability of that happened actually wouldnt be complicated at all...and if that was the case, well then the numbers are described arent as damning as originally assumed.

 

Assuming that, it is aslo possible the scenario of measuring could be reversed... making everything seem so so much worse than even reported!  Stop it already!

[BloodyChamp]

Just got something on FB that said Brady's suspension will be overturned Idk...

[crazycolt1]

I'm just not into kicking a person or the Pats when they're down. Your post raises even more questions for me. I'm giving up on trying to even understand this. I'm going back to basics and just going to trust what my eyes tell me when I'm watching the game. I just see this getting uglier from all angles over time. Crazy...over some air. 

Well if rules, sportsmanship and integrity means zero to you be my guest.

[jvan1973]

Just got something on FB that said Brady's suspension will be overturned Idk...

speculation. its impossible to know what stance the arbitrator will take

[crazycolt1]

Fixed, in most peoples' minds...

You hit the nail with that comment. Most seem to think Goodell is responsible for a lot of things that he is not. He is an employee and gets paid to be the face and the yes man for the owners. You can bet he makes no moves without majority owners approval. He is well paid because he makes the owners boo coo money and as long as that continues he will stay exactly where he is. It's easy to point a finger at Goodell and say it's all him. That is false. He does what he is told by those who pay him. That is exactly why the owners have him. To take all the heat so they themselves don't have to. The owners are the ones with the big time money and it don't take a rocket scientist to know those who have the money does the controlling. Bottom line is Goodell is nothing more that a highly paid yes man.

[csmopar]

Ah. I got it. Thank you.

I must confess that I have not read the entire report -- I don't have the time. However, from the little snippets I have read here and there and what I have heard on the radio, it seems like it was McNally who was guilty of bribery. It seems like he was asking for gifts rather than him being offered gifts for deflating the balls. In addition, in those text messages, Jastremski never names Brady. McNally seems to go above and beyond to name Brady. Just my impression.

Having said that I do believe that Brady has been doing this for a while and those guys deflated those balls at his request. He should sit out those 4 games.

Now, on appeal, can he plead ignorance? Can he argue that he did not know anything about PSI levels and since the league allowed QBs to alter the balls to each QB's liking, he had no way of knowing that the balls were actually under-inflated? He could say he never asked McNally to alter the balls after they were checked and approved by the refs. I don't know...just thinking out loud.

Yeah, I've read the entire report, been on vacation for 2 weeks so I had time . But I must say it's not full of hokes like pats fans and others want people to believe. From this trained investigator, it looks pretty damning.

[csmopar]

Damn. I never thought about it like that.

Wow!

I hadn't either until I saw that piece with the legal expert who brought it up.

[Dustin]

Not if they sue the league, like people are saying they will. The courts could postpone any punishments until rulings are given, and then throw out the penalties altogether. I could easily see that happening, and the Patriots and Brady getting away with zero penalty, all because some judge doesn't like something about the situation.

 

I don't think the court has the ability to overrule the picks penalty. The picks were because of the Patriots lack of cooperation and that is strictly prohibited in the CBA.