Who needs to go? Pagano or Grigson?

[Moopsiepuffs]

Right now Sean Payton can't win garbage NFC South. With Drew Brees, Jimmy Graham, Mark Ingram.. Fire him immediately!

He might actually get fired lol.

Falcons and Carolina are a million miles better than Jax and Tenn by the way.

[Corndog]

Next poll?

 

Who needs to go:  Pagano or Grigson?    (It's totally different because I reversed the names!)

 

Then.....

 

Who should lose their job:    (It's totally different,  I didn't say needs to go, I said lose their job!)

 

And on and on and on.....

 

We just re-word the question and pretend it's something entirely new!     Brilliant!     Genius!

 

I appreciate that this is a disappointing season,  but we're going to win 11 games and be in the playoffs.

 

If that's a disappointing season -- and yes,  this has been a disappointing season -- then Colts fans don't have it so bad.

Actually there aren't any polls asking a question like mine.  I was really just curious to see where the board stood and what changes needed to be made, if any at all.  The board is very divided on these issues, and I just wanted to see where most of the board stood.   I probably should have asked about coordinator changes as those seem to be popular.  Granted opinions would obviously change with a good run in the playoffs.   Although it already seems like most are happy with the current staff.

 

Just like any sports message board there are differences of opinions, but we all need to remember one thing, we are all Colts fans and just because we don't agree on everything doesn't make one group of fans better than the other.  

[colts8718]

what didn't you like about Irsay's hiring of Grigson?  Who would you have preferred?

Good question Grigson did well in his first draft with the help of the new GM of Chargers I think his name was Tom Tedesco not sure of the spelling he worked in our organization and many thought he had a lot of input in that 1st draft with Grigson and his recent drafts have been nothing to talk about and many of his free agent either.About the hiring I did not think at that time it was a good idea to bring in someone with not much experience. What did you think at the time of his hiring?

[gacker65]

Neither. I believe that we can give them another year.

[a06cc]

I voted for Grigson because the offensive line is bad. He had a chance to fix it. We also need to stay healthy. That's the teams problem.

[Gavin]

Neither but I think if the O Line situation is still an issue by the end of 2016 or 2017 then a big change might be good, whether thats a new O Line coach or a GM or O Coordinator who knows. its going to be hard to convince anyone that a team thats had the success that we have had so quick after an overhaul that we need a big change....Im not convinced we do yet....But Im not going to be so quick to dismiss that the more years that go by that we have incompetent run blocking.........Right now if someone is on the "hot seat" I think it would be O Line coach Joe Gilbert

[theanarchist]

I don't think either one of them need to be fired but both need to do a better job. I said this a while back and I'll say it again, Grigson blew that Richardson trade and that is going to hurt. He can't afford to miss on any high picks now. You get a one or 2 first round flops and all of a sudden your roster gets full of underachievers and then before you know it you have a team that is missing a playmaker where you need one and all of a sudden you have a mediocre team. Even with Andrew Luck who can make a 6-10 team 10-6 you can't afford to miss this badly on 1st round picks.

 

Werner is doing OK but some people are disappointed with him because he was a first round pick. I think he's solid but he definitely hasn't shown the pass rushing skills we were hoping for. So, even tho I would say that isn't a blown pick I would say there's been some disappointment in him whether its deserved or not. So, he's got to do a better job with his drafts in my opinion and start getting more out of his selections.

[Cynjin]

I'd like a fifth "write in" option on which posters need to go.

[FanFromtheWasteland]

Neither but there may be a few fans that are expendable

[Superman]

I don't think either one of them need to be fired but both need to do a better job. I said this a while back and I'll say it again, Grigson blew that Richardson trade and that is going to hurt. He can't afford to miss on any high picks now. You get a one or 2 first round flops and all of a sudden your roster gets full of underachievers and then before you know it you have a team that is missing a playmaker where you need one and all of a sudden you have a mediocre team. Even with Andrew Luck who can make a 6-10 team 10-6 you can't afford to miss this badly on 1st round picks.

 

Werner is doing OK but some people are disappointed with him because he was a first round pick. I think he's solid but he definitely hasn't shown the pass rushing skills we were hoping for. So, even tho I would say that isn't a blown pick I would say there's been some disappointment in him whether its deserved or not. So, he's got to do a better job with his drafts in my opinion and start getting more out of his selections.

 

Goodness, what a rational post.

 

+1000

[Yoshinator]

I'm going to put this the best way I can. Grigson is doing a great job in bringing in talent. He whiffed on the Richardson trade, but he also hit on the Vontae Davis trade. He nailed two out of three drafts as well since being GM. Pagano is a great motivator and he would be like a father figure type guy that I would love to play for and hate to disappoint. The downside is that he's a poor strategist and decision maker. I think a decent comparision is Pagano to RGIII. He does just enough at times that we keep him around. Just like the Redskins will keep RGIII and continue to toil in mediocrity, the longer we keep Pagano, the older Andrew Luck will get and the longer we will be 1 and done in the playoffs. I just don't trust him in the playoffs to outcoach anyone. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the quicker we cut bait with him, the sooner we'll get better as a team. I just don't see Pagano going anywhere for a couple years minimum at the very least.

[Jason_]

I'm going to put this the best way I can. Grigson is doing a great job in bringing in talent. He whiffed on the Richardson trade, but he also hit on the Vontae Davis trade. He nailed two out of three drafts as well since being GM. Pagano is a great motivator and he would be like a father figure type guy that I would love to play for and hate to disappoint. The downside is that he's a poor strategist and decision maker. I think a decent comparision is Pagano to RGIII. He does just enough at times that we keep him around. Just like the Redskins will keep RGIII and continue to toil in mediocrity, the longer we keep Pagano, the older Andrew Luck will get and the longer we will be 1 and done in the playoffs. I just don't trust him in the playoffs to outcoach anyone. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the quicker we cut bait with him, the sooner we'll get better as a team. I just don't see Pagano going anywhere for a couple years minimum at the very least.

 

well here's the thing...Pagano is just finishing up his 2nd full season as an NFL head coach.  Bellichik wasn't outcoaching the better coaches in the league at that point in his career either.  Most of the coaches going into the playoffs are far more experienced.  Now I can get that some fans want a more experienced head coach, but Grigson and Irsay had the opportunity to interview veteran coaches and instead they went with Pagano.  they knew there would be some growing pains because of his inexperience and they were ok with that.  They hired him to grow into the position of Head coach while Luck grows into the position of NFL QB.  

 

So, for those who want a more experienced head coach with the team right now, well to put it bluntly, too bad.  That's not what Grigson and Irsay wanted so that's not what you're going to get.  For those who are upset that Pagano isn't outcoaching the current elite coaches, well to put it bluntly...duh, of course he's not...he's still gaining experience as a head coach whereas those "elite" guys have already been there, done that.  However, they were just as green as Pagano currently is at one point, but fortunately for them their front office and ownership were patient enough to let them grow into the elite coaches they currently are.  And that's what the Colt front office and ownership is going to do with Pagano...give him a chance to grow into the coach they believe he can be.  So if you're not happy with that, then you're not going to be happy for another few years.  Happy Holidays though. ;)

[Yoshinator]

well here's the thing...Pagano is just finishing up his 2nd full season as an NFL head coach.  Most of the coaches going into the playoffs are far more experienced.  Now I can get that some fans want a more experienced head coach, but Grigson and Irsay had the opportunity to interview several veteran coaches and instead they went with Pagano.  they knew there would be some growing pains because of his inexperience and they were ok with that.  They hired him to grow into the position of Head coach while Luck grows into the position of NFL QB.  

 

So, for those who want a more experienced head coach with the team right now, well to put it bluntly, too bad.  That's not what Grigson and Irsay wanted so that's not what you're going to get.  For those who are upset that Pagano isn't outcoaching the current elite coaches, well to put it bluntly...duh, of course he's not...he's still gaining experience as a head coach whereas those "elite" guys have already been there, done that.  However, they were just as green as Pagano currently is at one point, but fortunately for them their front office and ownership were patient enough to let them grow into the elite coaches they currently are.  And that's what the Colt front office and ownership is going to do with Pagano...give him a chance to grow into the coach they believe he can be.  So if you're not happy with that, then you're not going to be happy for another few years.  Happy Holidays though. ;)

I will roll with the punches. I'm sure there are 20+ teams hoping to be in our spots right now. Still early in the rebuild, I guess I'm panicking a bit. We have all our picks +1 in next year's draft and we may get lucky in the playoffs this year. Maybe we go on a run. Happy holidays to you as well. We are rooting for the same thing, a super bowl win, I'll take your advice and hope for the best.

[BOTT]

Not overly impressed with either, but of the two I would give Grigson another year and would fire Pagano only if I knew I could get someone like Harbaugh.

[Superman]

I will roll with the punches. I'm sure there are 20+ teams hoping to be in our spots right now. Still early in the rebuild, I guess I'm panicking a bit. We have all our picks +1 in next year's draft and we may get lucky in the playoffs this year. Maybe we go on a run. Happy holidays to you as well. We are rooting for the same thing, a super bowl win, I'll take your advice and hope for the best.

 

Go back just a couple of years and read what people were saying about Pete Carroll. Lots of this "he'll never win anything in the pros," "he's a college coach," "he's overrated" type stuff. Lots of "Harbaugh has his number," also. And now, Carroll has a Super Bowl and is closing in on a #1 seed again, and Harbaugh is on his way out (maybe headed back to college himself).

 

That doesn't mean that if we just wait long enough, eventually Pagano is going to become a Super Bowl winning head coach. He's not perfect, by any stretch. My biggest fear right now is that we look up in two seasons and we're the Atlanta Falcons. I don't think we're trending that way, and I think this offseason will be the major determining factor, but two or three years in, Mike Smith was considered to be a very good coach. Now, he's probably on his way out, and the Falcons have a lot of work to do. I don't want us to err on the side of caution with Pagano.

 

But I don't think he's a bad coach, and I don't think there's any justification for the hatred he gets at times. (It especially annoys me that so many people refuse to discuss his merits without pretending like the only reason he still has a job is because he had cancer. How about his record? How about the big turnaround for this team? How about the upward trend? But I digress...) I think it's silly to even discuss replacing him at this point.

 

And the best thing about it is that coaches can get better, just like players can get better. I think our coaching this season has been dramatically better than it was last season. We can second guess and nitpick some decisions here or there (Pats fans are still complaining about Belichick's 4th and 2 from 2009), but overall, the offensive approach has been far and away better than it was last season. The defense has mostly kept pace in terms of sacks and turnovers with last year's team, despite not having its best playmaker. The special teams -- which was pretty good last year -- has probably been the best in the league this year, mostly because of the ability to convert onside kicks and stop fakes. Again, not perfect, but if you want to see a coaching staff getting better, I think there's evidence of that with the Colts this season.

 

I've said several times, I think Year 4 is critical. The offseason has to be superb. There needs to be a big jump in this team's ability to compete against quality opponents consistently. The mistakes have to go away, but we still need to be able to make big plays (basically, combine 2013's discipline with 2014's explosiveness). The line play has to get better. We've been ahead of schedule up until now. At this point, we're on schedule, and need to keep getting better. So the conversation will change.

[Pacergeek]

Pagano needs to go. He made the worst trade in the last decade. Trent Richardson for a first round pick should cost him his job. Cannot have a GM so eager to make a deal just to make him seem smarter than the other GM's. Cannot be trusted going forward

[Jason_]

Pagano needs to go. He made the worst trade in the last decade. Trent Richardson for a first round pick should cost him his job. Cannot have a GM so eager to make a deal just to make him seem smarter than the other GM's. Cannot be trusted going forward

 

do you know who Pagano is?

[Gavin]

do you know who Pagano is?

"Cannot have a GM so eager to make a deal just to make him seem smarter than the other GM's."

 

 

What is no Alex for 1000

[GoColts8818]

Pagano needs to go. He made the worst trade in the last decade. Trent Richardson for a first round pick should cost him his job. Cannot have a GM so eager to make a deal just to make him seem smarter than the other GM's. Cannot be trusted going forward

pagano isn't the GM.

[ponyboy]

They hired him to grow into the position of Head coach while Luck grows into the position of NFL QB.  

 

 

That might be true, but at some point you actually have to see some growth.  How long do you wait for it?  You should be seeing some of it by now.

[Gavin]

That might be true, but at some point you actually have to see some growth.  How long do you wait for it?  You should be seeing some of it by now.

Depends on what your looking for

[Pacergeek]

pagano isn't the GM.

Sorry, I meant to say Ryan Grigson should be fired. He cut Satele back in March, and has still yet to find a Center

[GoColts8818]

Sorry, I meant to say Ryan Grigson should be fired. He cut Satele back in March, and has still yet to find a Center

in fairness before he cut Satele he had yet to find a center.

[southwest1]

So you are not alarmed with his propensity to throw interceptions or the beating he is taking?  Okay, good to know.

 

That is the root of why I made that statement.  He is at a crossroads right now, hopefully he will keep improving, and I think he will.  This staff though, is not helping him at the moment.

The last time I checked head coaches & QB coaches aren't allowed on the field to hold his hand everytime Luck throws the ball. Andrew needs to work through his interception woes on his own timetable with Matthew Hasselbeck in the film room.  It's not a mechanical issue; it's a mental issue that only Andrew not Pagano or Clyde Christensen can solve & he will. He's too darn smart not too. Just be patient. 

 

I will agree with you sf727 on Luck taking way too many hits though. A crossroads in year 3? Way too soon to make that claim if you ask me. Let's talk crossroads in year 5 or 6 not now. 

[PrincetonTiger]

Not sure why the concern since we are once again a 10+ win team

[southwest1]

I just laugh at polls that imply that since we haven't won a SB in year 3 of a new coaching regime that massive turnover must be made immediately. I have no desire to become the Oakland Raiders under owner Al Davis. 

 

Okay, our lackluster o-line makes me angry a lot given how we have trouble creating running lanes & I cringe every single time Luck bails the pocket & releases the ball seconds before a LB like Suggs takes Chewy to the ground, but I know our power pigs up front are doing the best they can & our GM Grigs is kicking over every stone to give Luck a better pocket. 

 

It just boggles my mind how some fans think that better coaches are out there. We are winning not sinking. Okay, I wanna make deep playoff runs too, but I can wait since I constantly see how aggressive our GM & our owner are committed to keep moving forward & exceeding last year's post season benchmarks. Be grateful that we are not the Bears right now with no defense & an arrogant QB plummeting faster than you can say bottomless pit of despair & decay.  

[sfergson727]

The last time I checked head coaches & QB coaches aren't allowed on the field to hold his hand everytime Luck throws the ball. Andrew needs to work through his interception woes on his own timetable with Matthew Hasselbeck in the film room.  It's not a mechanical issue; it's a mental issue that only Andrew not Pagano or Clyde Christensen can solve & he will. He's too darn smart not too. Just be patient. 

 

I will agree with you sf727 on Luck taking way too many hits though. A crossroads in year 3? Way too soon to make that claim if you ask me. Let's talk crossroads in year 5 or 6 not now. 

I just don't want to see him turning into David Carr 2.0, and I think his interception issues spawn from not having enough time to make a good read, along with receivers who can't seem to hold onto the ball.  The help he needs is from the coaches figuring out how to give him enough time to throw, or giving him plays that lead to shorter drops.  (slants and so forth)  The coaches also need to put the best players on the field, particularly on the offensive line, which IMHO they have not been doing.

 

That is what I meant by support.

[southwest1]

I just don't want to see him turning into David Carr 2.0, and I think his interception issues spawn from not having enough time to make a good read, along with receivers who can't seem to hold onto the ball.  The help he needs is from the coaches figuring out how to give him enough time to throw, or giving him plays that lead to shorter drops.  (slants and so forth)  The coaches also need to put the best players on the field, particularly on the offensive line, which IMHO they have not been doing.

 

That is what I meant by support.

Okay, I get where you are coming from now. Don't make Luck take so much punishment that he starts seeing ghost pass rushers or like Big Ben in Pittsburgh where years of collisions finally caught up with him, his body started breaking down & new OC Todd Haley was brought in to get Big Ben to maker quicker decisions with the ball slowing down the pass rush & getting 1st downs. A fair point. 

 

I still say Luck has 2 major problems: 1. He needs to give up well covered passes faster throwing the ball away & 2. If you do throw a pick, let the DB go dude. Do NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ATTEMPT TO TACKLE HIM EVER. 

 

Your second claim that Pagano isn't putting the best players on the field or the line is tough to judge since I am not talking to the strength & conditioning coaches everyday nor am I seeing the starting lineup perform in practice, but I will concede that now before the regular season ends is when you try different combinations on the line & see what works before the games become life & death real in late December & early January. 

[Shane Bond]

When will we see "build the monster"

[OffensivelyPC]

It's the easiest job in the world to question the smallest failure for anyone who finishes in 2nd or worse.

[OffensivelyPC]

When will we see "build the monster"

lol. I've always hated that. So don't apply it to every colt fan spygate mcgee.

[OffensivelyPC]

I don't think either one of them need to be fired but both need to do a better job. I said this a while back and I'll say it again, Grigson blew that Richardson trade and that is going to hurt. He can't afford to miss on any high picks now. You get a one or 2 first round flops and all of a sudden your roster gets full of underachievers and then before you know it you have a team that is missing a playmaker where you need one and all of a sudden you have a mediocre team. Even with Andrew Luck who can make a 6-10 team 10-6 you can't afford to miss this badly on 1st round picks.

Werner is doing OK but some people are disappointed with him because he was a first round pick. I think he's solid but he definitely hasn't shown the pass rushing skills we were hoping for. So, even tho I would say that isn't a blown pick I would say there's been some disappointment in him whether its deserved or not. So, he's got to do a better job with his drafts in my opinion and start getting more out of his selections.

it's been hard to hate his drafts because he's done well where most fail...drafting solid players after the third round.

But getting "B" players where other teams fail mean little when you don't ever hit on the studs (other than hitting on the only "can't -miss-in-20-years-prospect")...nice post.

[southwest1]

It's the easiest job in the world to question the smallest failure for anyone who finishes in 2nd or worse.

Good point OPC. INDY is far from the NY Jets fiasco. Touche. 

 

Yeah, I know you didn't say that directly, but it is what SW1 keeps reminding myself whenever the Colts lose. 

[OffensivelyPC]

Good point OPC. INDY is far from the NY Jets fiasco. Touche.

Yeah, I know you didn't say that directly, but it is what SW1 keeps reminding myself whenever the Colts lose.

its natural to want to fix. No problem with that. The natural next step is to disagree on a solution. Where I have a problem (and to be clear, not accusing anyone in particular) is when the solution is to complain. Tough to discern the two when, at this moment in time, a viable solution is impossible to make.3 years is close, but premature given we're going to the playoffs. Luck is a 3rd year qb. Defense, despite its holes, is by and large, free agency patches. And it's hard to hold Grigson solely reliable for building a return game the Colts have pretty much identified themselves as a failure since my first memory as human being

[Robert Johnson]

I just laugh at polls that imply that since we haven't won a SB in year 3 of a new coaching regime that massive turnover must be made immediately. I have no desire to become the Oakland Raiders under owner Al Davis. 

 

Okay, our lackluster o-line makes me angry a lot given how we have trouble creating running lanes & I cringe every single time Luck bails the pocket & releases the ball seconds before a LB like Suggs takes Chewy to the ground, but I know our power pigs up front are doing the best they can & our GM Grigs is kicking over every stone to give Luck a better pocket. 

 

It just boggles my mind how some fans think that better coaches are out there. We are winning not sinking. Okay, I wanna make deep playoff runs too, but I can wait since I constantly see how aggressive our GM & our owner are committed to keep moving forward & exceeding last year's post season benchmarks. Be grateful that we are not the Bears right now with no defense & an arrogant QB plummeting faster than you can say bottomless pit of despair & decay.  

But.. but...changing coaches every other year works so well in Cleveland and Oakland

[Sting]

Not sure why the concern since we are once again a 10+ win team

We are a 10+ win team because we play in the AFC South.  That is 6 wins a year.  If the goal is to just win the division, then we are fine, no cause for concern.  But I want the Colts to win another superbowl or 2.

[PrincetonTiger]

But.. but...changing coaches every other year works so well in Cleveland and Oakland

Has worked well for Jax too

[coltsfanatic24]

Out of the two, Pagano will go 1st. I don't think Grigson will be gone anytime soon but if we get embarrassed at home in the playoffs, Pagano could be gone.

 

Pagano is the Mike Smith of the AFC and the Colts are very similar to the Falcons. He's a great defensive backs coach but I don't think this is the coach that can lead the Colts to a superbowl. He's not tough enough on his players, plays guys that aren't playing well because of their salary or draft status. He also doesn't hold Luck accountable for his turnovers, he continue to let him make the same mistakes over and over again without saying anything. The opposite of Belicheck. 

[bap1331]

idk if it will be worth it unless John Harbaugh is still available. The problem i fear is that Harbaugh will be signed long before the Colts playoff game. The only way I see it is if he waits until after the 1st week of the playoffs.

 

He really has no reason to wait until after that considering the teams went that far...

[Defjamz26]

Not sure anyone is getting let go, but the guy who would have the highest chance to be let go IMO is Manusky. I think everyone else is safe for now. I think Pep has been great considering the Colts have no O-line and Richardson at RB. We still had the number 1 offense for a long period this season.

 

I'll say though, this next draft is "proving time" for Grigs. First draft he's had full picks since 2012. All eyes will be on him and how he addresses the defensive issues. This will be draft #4.