Worse offseason move was keeping Pagano and letting Arians walk....

[mo0nlighting]

Yes I thought of this too. And it is concerning and needs to improve. The second half offense has been lackluster. And I always felt we shined the most in second halves but we have not been......

 

I agree with that sentiment.  The two opening games this year, the third and majority of the 4th quarter have been horrendous.  The scripted plays to open the games have been decent (i'm in the camp that says we should have gone for the opening 4th and 1), but the third quarter and majority of the 4th have been horrid as far as offensive production.  And as I've stated in other threads, I hope this situation irons itself out as the rest of the offense learns the playbook.  I think I'm more peeved at the fact that they only put up 3 points in the second half, than the actual loss.  But I'm weird like that.

 

Go Colts!

 

PS: I'm also in the camp of "good lawd!" Pagano has had a handful of games to actually coach, and Pep is calling the shots for the second time as an NFL OC.  I'm not going to be running around with a pitchfork and calling for their heads unless its week 16 and we're 1-15.

[jbaron04]

We lost to the Dolphins because of Reggie Wayne, ultimately. He is a veteran and he should know what he needs to do to be in play. It sucks but chalk it up to picky refs to notice that call. I think Pagano is fine.

luck threw the pick etc....but u have to give your wr and chance but if he dont throw that pick we kick field goal and need field goal to win.....the ref stole this game "illegal shift" wait the guy is in motion "i know just go with it" 

[pgt_rob]

luck threw the pick etc....but u have to give your wr and chance but if he dont throw that pick we kick field goal and need field goal to win.....the ref stole this game "illegal shift" wait the guy is in motion "i know just go with it" 

Luck threw the pick after Reggie's mistake though. So even with that pick we still would have won. But it's whatever... over and done. Moving on.

[Jason_]

luck threw the pick etc....but u have to give your wr and chance but if he dont throw that pick we kick field goal and need field goal to win.....the ref stole this game "illegal shift" wait the guy is in motion "i know just go with it" 

 

Wayne was not set before going in motion and did not get set after going in motion, that's why it was a penalty....as explained and confrimed as the correct call by Mike Pereira.

[CanuckColtsFan]

I think that with Pags being a D specialist, we need a strong experienced o coordinator. Nothing against pep but I would have rather seen Norv turner. Well maybe not seen but had him as our o coordinator, that turkey neck is disturbing.

[Coffeedrinker]

Yes I thought of this too. And it is concerning and needs to improve. The second half offense has been lackluster. And I always felt we shined the most in second halves but we have not been......

That was one of the things that made Manning so great, his ability to learn what defenses are doing and pick them apart in the 2nd half.  With the way Luck runs the 2 minute offense, I believe he could excel in that type of system but it really seams like they want to bring him along slowly (too slowly, IMO) and not give him full reign of the offense.

[chad72]

That was one of the things that made Manning so great, his ability to learn what defenses are doing and pick them apart in the 2nd half.  With the way Luck runs the 2 minute offense, I believe he could excel in that type of system but it really seams like they want to bring him along slowly (too slowly, IMO) and not give him full reign of the offense.

 

Yep. Those are the things I am seeing from Peyton with Denver this year in the second half, the same things I saw with Peyton and Dungy with post half adjustments.

 

The Colts, on the other hand, are going in the opposite direction offensively. I remember Arians having Luck go no huddle before the half and in the 4th qtr. and giving him the reigns, I don't see a reason why Pep cannot do that, now that Luck is in year 2 of getting used to NFL speed and has familiarity with the offense being run anyway. It does remind me eerily of both the Vikings and Jaguars games where our offense got dormant in the second half, both with Pagano as head coach and we squeaked a win vs the Vikes, and lost to the Jags on a fluky play but did let the Jags back in because we got dormant.

[Goodtimes]

you already have John Fox. Plus your owners name is Pat...

 

I am not a big fan of John Fox. So, yes, I would like Gruden there too.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Superman

[Dark Superman]

We lost to the Dolphins because of Reggie Wayne, ultimately. He is a veteran and he should know what he needs to do to be in play. It sucks but chalk it up to picky refs to notice that call. I think Pagano is fine.

And a AV missed FG

[CanuckColt]

Arians was an OC...he wanted to be a HC...we could not keep him.

It is true that Arians called a much better game than Pep...we have taken a step backwards at OC but could not do much about it.

If the losses start piling up, we are still stuck with Pep until next year...who else do we get?

[crazycolt1]

I think all this over reaction to a loss is exactly that. Sooner or later the come from behind wins didn't happen. I think we can all agree that the O-line needs some work or other players in place. With the huge turnover in players over the last two seasons this shouldn't come as a surprise. While going 11-5 last season was great it gave too many a sense that this team was ready to advance into the playoffs. This beast is still being built so to say. To call for the head of Pagano is really silly at this point. He has in reality only coached 7 total games in his time here. Arians and his offensive plays would have gotten Luck hurt just like what has happened to Big Ben for the Steelers. After watching Ben last night there is no way I want Luck to look like that in 4 or 5 years. After the 2-14 season lets not be too down as we do have a competitive team that can win any given game. 

[crazycolt1]

Same old Colts. 18 never could get a complete team, watch 12 prob won't either. And hate to sound pessimistic but I wanted Gruden. Dude is young with a ring. And people listen when he talks. Combine what he did winning w/ Gannon & Garcia, Gruden was a slam dunk to be here 10 years with Luck.

However, that's not our reality. I will root for the Colts & Pagano obviously to succeed, but I do agree with the OP & wanted to share my 2 cents.

There is a reason that Gruden don't have a head coaching job right now. He is too stuck on himself in the media spotlight. It is common knowledge that there is a lot of players who dislike Gruden because he is not a players coach. His need to be the main attraction on a team rubs players the wrong way. He took a Dungy team to a super bowl win and then what? Every year he was there the Bucs went down to where his welcome was long gone. 

[jvan1973]

Arians was an OC...he wanted to be a HC...we could not keep him.

It is true that Arians called a much better game than Pep...we have taken a step backwards at OC but could not do much about it.

If the losses start piling up, we are still stuck with Pep until next year...who else do we get?

pep isn't going anywhere for awhile.

[bluephantom87]

Good post, LH. I agree with most of what you said. I think Pagano and Pep will learn on the job and will probably become less conservative as they get more comfortable. Manusky does concern me in that prior to last season with the Colts he has never had very much success and he was the one hire I did not care much for. The defense has looked lost for major portions of the first two games of this season. The two TDs to open the Dolphins game really set the tone for the rest of the game and they both happened over the course of maybe just four total plays that were the result of defensive collapses by the Colts. 

 

I feel that if you are going to have a conservative offense, you really need to have a dominant defense (which our Colts don't). I actually liked the playcalling much better in the Dolphins game than the Raiders game. I think Pep will open up the offense more for Luck as the season progresses. The biggest thing is making defenses pay for the blitz which has been the biggest issue thus far on offense.

All I heard from Chuck was about the d becoming bigger, more aggressive and physical at the point of attack. Not seeing it so far but what I do see is Manusky following his same mo from previous stops. (in which he was fired) A safe 3-4 scheme making average qbs look like world beaters. Not sure why Chuck hasn't been a little more hands on with the defense on the sidelines like Bill B is with the Patriots because I've seen enough of Manusky to know he's not the answer. Not sold on Pep but will give him time. A coach should strive for greatness and some coaches just have the it factor. From what I see so far my gut tells me that Chuck will be an ok coach with conservative tendencies. Now will that be good enough only time will tell.

[Jules]

I am willing to give Pep a lot more time here.....

 

But, there were times this offseason I wished we could have kept last years entire staff together. It was not meant to be though and Arians did deserve the opportunity he received. I loved them all last year so much and hated to break it apart. Such a memorable season I will never forget.

 

It had to happen though and we our coaching staff hopefully becomes more savvy as the year progresses!

[CanuckColt]

I would certainly be excited about Gruden but Jimmy will never pay for him.

Yes he would...maybe he will get the chance.

[Jason_]

Yes he would...maybe he will get the chance.

 

god I hope not.  Gruden is an *.  I really wish they'd replace him on MNF

[cmgww]

For all the Arians love I am seeing on here...some of you really need to go back and read the threads from last season about how terrible he was: too much down the field stuff, plays take too long to develop, we didn't have the O line to let those plays develop, he's going to get Luck killed, he didn't make adjustments and we went stagnant late in games, he is bad at challenges, etc etc etc...jeez we are spoiled. Arians' offense works well with a solid offensive line, we didn't have that last year, and so far not really this year (though I think we're better at running). just saying....

[indy1888]

For all the Arians love I am seeing on here...some of you really need to go back and read the threads from last season about how terrible he was: too much down the field stuff, plays take too long to develop, we didn't have the O line to let those plays develop, he's going to get Luck killed, he didn't make adjustments and we went stagnant late in games, he is bad at challenges, etc etc etc...jeez we are spoiled. Arians' offense works well with a solid offensive line, we didn't have that last year, and so far not really this year (though I think we're better at running). just saying....

 

Not everyone disliked Arian's.   I liked him and hoped like heck everyone would pass over him for a HC job.   They all did, except for the last team that needed a coach in Arizona.  My only complaint was that there wasn't a checkdown option in his offense as much as i would like to see.  It got better though toward the end of the year. I liked that he threw everything at Luck instead of babying him.  I think it helped Luck a lot.  His philosophy IMO was very smart with the team he had.  We needed big plays to win games.  We didn't have a ton of talent.  But what he did was make sure he used the talent he had and that was with Luck throwing the ball downfield to receivers. You don't use a number 1 pick on a QB so he can hand off and be a power running team.  He tried to put pressure on a defense. We won 11 games, hard to complain about that. I would have loved to see the offense grow with those 2 as the pieces around them improved, but it wasn't meant to be.

 

This year we have went more to a safe offense.  I don't particularly like it.  I think it's get boring and very predictable.  It takes about one half for defenses to figure it out and then we have no answers and start forcing things. Oh yeah, and we still get our QB hit.  In fact, he's on pace to take more hits under Pep Hamilton then he did under Bruce Arian's.

[NewColtsFan]

I know we had a moral obligation to allow Pagano to come back and coach this year, but I feel we let a GREAT GREAT coach in Arians walk and keeping Pagano...Just look how the Steelers have went downhill without him at OC...I am beyond frustrated watching the first 2 games and the terrible decisions and playcalling on both sides of the ball...We are coaching horribly conservatively and this comes from the top!!! We r running 2 te, fb sets instead of 3 wides and it's so predictable any easy to defend...Pagano is coaching us like we are the old Ravens when we don't have old Ravens personnel??? We need to play a style more like the Falcons, but we are calling plays like we are the old Ravens or Cleveland Browns or something...It is obvious to me how much more talented we were than the Dolphins or Raiders and neither game should have been close....It has to go on the coach....Beyond frustrated so far this season...

 

I knew this thread was coming....    I absolutely, positively knew this thread was coming.

 

But I certainly thought it might take more than two weeks before someone might be *ic enough to post it.   And I say *ic only because a more appropriate word might earn me a warning point....   or two....   or TEN!

 

Now that it's posted I must confess that I'm not the least bit surprised over who the original poster is.   

 

And so now I'm torn....    do I really want to go through three pages of people either agreeing with the OP or people disagreeing with the OP....      I'm sure I'll eventually get to reading it...  I guess it depends on whether I want to laugh....   or cry....

 

But for now....    I'll just simply say....       and I'd also add    

 

Oh happy days.......

[Gavin]

I cant believe this is actually a thread calling for Pagano to be fired after 7 games, A couple things need to be pointed out

 

1.Manusky has called some badly timed plays on defense....example: Playing 10 yards off Mike Wallace in the redzone..., ya wanna play not to let him beat ya deep then thats fine but dont do it inside the redzone where there is no deep to give up,

 

2.Luck had a bad game overall vs Miami despite what his 321 yards passing says, He is still holding the the ball to long on way to many of his plays, He does not see some easier wide open routes(Griff Whalen at the 8:29 mark of the 4th Quarter. Instead he chose to force it to Wayne. If he throws to Whalen then that int dont happen on that play and Whalen has 19 yards of green between him and the Corner , Misses wide open wide receivers deep (Hilton 5:04 2nd quarter vs Miami is just 1 example. He also stares down wr's. I honestly dont see a growth from him from a QB standpoint from year 1 to year 2 at this point BUT we are only 2 games....I repeat....2 games in

 

3.Our wr's have a hard time getting separation, Heck the only 1 that can do that consisently is Griff Whalen and he should be the last guy you expect to do that consistently but he always seems to find the hole in the defense

[BOTT]

I cant believe this is actually a thread calling for Pagano to be fired after 7 games, A couple things need to be pointed out

 

1.Manusky has called some badly timed plays on defense....example: Playing 10 yards off Mike Wallace in the redzone..., ya wanna play not to let him beat ya deep then thats fine but dont do it inside the redzone where there is no deep to give up,

 

2.Luck had a bad game overall vs Miami despite what his 321 yards passing says, He is still holding the the ball to long on way to many of his plays, He does not see some easier wide open routes(Griff Whalen at the 8:29 mark of the 4th Quarter. Instead he chose to force it to Wayne. If he throws to Whalen then that int dont happen on that play and Whalen has 19 yards of green between him and the Corner , Misses wide open wide receivers deep (Hilton 5:04 2nd quarter vs Miami is just 1 example. He also stares down wr's. I honestly dont see a growth from him from a QB standpoint from year 1 to year 2 at this point BUT we are only 2 games....I repeat....2 games in

 

3.Our wr's have a hard time getting separation, Heck the only 1 that can do that consisently is Griff Whalen and he should be the last guy you expect to do that consistently but he always seems to find the hole in the defense

Where you get your confidence i don't know

[Gavin]

Where you get your confidence i don't know

what do ya mean

[Goodtimes]

god I hope not.  Gruden is an *.  I really wish they'd replace him on MNF

 

. I know that he is a GREAT football coach...

Edited September 18, 2013 by Nadine

[Coffeedrinker]

Yep. Those are the things I am seeing from Peyton with Denver this year in the second half, the same things I saw with Peyton and Dungy with post half adjustments.

 

The Colts, on the other hand, are going in the opposite direction offensively. I remember Arians having Luck go no huddle before the half and in the 4th qtr. and giving him the reigns, I don't see a reason why Pep cannot do that, now that Luck is in year 2 of getting used to NFL speed and has familiarity with the offense being run anyway. It does remind me eerily of both the Vikings and Jaguars games where our offense got dormant in the second half, both with Pagano as head coach and we squeaked a win vs the Vikes, and lost to the Jags on a fluky play but did let the Jags back in because we got dormant.

I agree completely.  And it weird, one would think the former DC of the Ravens would be a bit more aggressive.  But Pagano coaches like he has the 2000 Ravens D and Pep coaches like he's playing Cal every week.

 

They always say that players have to play for 60 minutes... well coaches have to coach for 60 minutes as well.

[Jason_]

I agree completely.  And it weird, one would think the former DC of the Ravens would be a bit more aggressive.  But Pagano coaches like he has the 2000 Ravens D and Pep coaches like he's playing Cal every week.

 

They always say that players have to play for 60 minutes... well coaches have to coach for 60 minutes as well.

 

I'm hoping Pagano will discuss and work on situational play calling with Manusky.  The one thing I read most about Manusky around the time he was hired was his playcalling could get vanilla/conservative at the worst times.  After hearing Manusky was hired and reading this about him I was hoping that Pagano would do the playcalling and that Manusky would essentially just help teach and implement the scheme.  I'm now hoping that Pagano either keeps working with him or at some point if things continue then hopefully Pagano will simply take over playcalling responsibilities.

 

As for Pep..for now I'm not going to be too critical (yes jvan, I'm sure he's relieved to hear this lol) because they are implementing a new system and new playbook, plus the players are still very young and inexperienced and Pep himself is learning on the fly how to call an NFL game so I expected there would be kinks to work out.  

[Coffeedrinker]

I'm hoping Pagano will discuss and work on situational play calling with Manusky.  The one thing I read most about Manusky around the time he was hired was his playcalling could get vanilla/conservative at the worst times.  After hearing Manusky was hired and reading this about him I was hoping that Pagano would do the playcalling and that Manusky would essentially just help teach and implement the scheme.  I'm now hoping that Pagano either keeps working with him or at some point if things continue then hopefully Pagano will simply take over playcalling responsibilities.

 

As for Pep..for now I'm not going to be too critical (yes jvan, I'm sure he's relieved to hear this lol) because they are implementing a new system and new playbook, plus the players are still very young and inexperienced and Pep himself is learning on the fly how to call an NFL game so I expected there would be kinks to work out.  

On Manusky, he had the worst 3rd down % in the league as DC of SD.  Things have not improved much in Indy.

 

On Pep, of course there are kinks that is not a big deal... but being predictable is not a kink, IMO.

[chad72]

35 plays in 2 games with 1 WR formations is the tally so far. Playing this formation on 3rd downs pretty much reduces/eliminates passing options, even if it is 3rd down and 1 or 2.

 

Run enough POSSE and more DICE i.e. 1-2 (1 RB, 2 TE, 2 WR) formations for symmetry in running and passing, and that is when play action can really set up a lot of things, IMO. Out of the DICE 1-2, split the receiving TE as a flanker to get yourself a 3rd receiving option, allows you to run no huddle. With a good blocking RB like Bradshaw, that is the way to go, IMO.

[jshipp23]

For all the Arians love I am seeing on here...some of you really need to go back and read the threads from last season about how terrible he was: too much down the field stuff, plays take too long to develop, we didn't have the O line to let those plays develop, he's going to get Luck killed, he didn't make adjustments and we went stagnant late in games, he is bad at challenges, etc etc etc...jeez we are spoiled. Arians' offense works well with a solid offensive line, we didn't have that last year, and so far not really this year (though I think we're better at running). just saying....

Arians took chances played to win, while Pagano plays not to lose....big difference

[Jules]

Arians also had an easier schedule then Pagano will have this season. Keep this in mind.

 

Our upcoming chunk of games is going to be a grind and would be difficult for ANY team.

 

Besides it has been mentioned a few times already but as much as we all liked Arians there were TONS of threads last year on his play calling and how many people hated it.

[Superman]

35 plays in 2 games with 1 WR formations is the tally so far. Playing this formation on 3rd downs pretty much reduces/eliminates passing options, even if it is 3rd down and 1 or 2.

 

Run enough POSSE and more DICE i.e. 1-2 (1 RB, 2 TE, 2 WR) formations for symmetry in running and passing, and that is when play action can really set up a lot of things, IMO. Out of the DICE 1-2, split the receiving TE as a flanker to get yourself a 3rd receiving option, allows you to run no huddle. With a good blocking RB like Bradshaw, that is the way to go, IMO.

 

The thing about 12 personnel is that it takes Hilton off the field. Wasn't the case in the second half on Sunday (but Hilton didn't do anything in the second half, so that's concerning), but assuming DHB is healthy, and now with Allen out, I think we want more 11 personnel.

[colts8718]

Bring Caldwell and Polian back ( I never liked the choice of Pagano, Arians was more creative but I think with his style Luck would have gotten hurt eventually. Oh I forgot bring back Chris Polian to

[Superman]

Arians took chances played to win, while Pagano plays not to lose....big difference

 

[chad72]

The thing about 12 personnel is that it takes Hilton off the field. Wasn't the case in the second half on Sunday (but Hilton didn't do anything in the second half, so that's concerning), but assuming DHB is healthy, and now with Allen out, I think we want more 11 personnel.

 

That is the thing. Why not use TY as the Z wideout? They have to give a cushion for his speed and if they don't, he will break a jam a few times a game and once a team gets burnt, they can't move both their safeties up when we are in 1-2 personnel.

 

I think it is very much possible. At least we should try and mix it up, not just pigeon hole TY to the slot and pigeon hole DHB to the Z wideout position. If TY is the Z wideout, run away from his side and throw in a curve ball by running to his side to keep it less predictable.

 

With Allen out, we may have less choices, I understand; but with a power back like Trent, we can use both Fleener and Dominique Jones as HBs in 1-2 splitting Fleener occasionally. They will have LBs on the field to guard against the run and then once you see a blitz, audible to Fleener to split out and cause a mismatch.

[Superman]

That is the thing. Why not use TY as the Z wideout? They have to give a cushion for his speed and if they don't, he will break a jam a few times a game and once a team gets burnt, they can't move both their safeties up when we are in 1-2 personnel.

 

I think it is very much possible. At least we should try and mix it up, not just pigeon hole TY to the slot and pigeon hole DHB to the Z wideout position. If TY is the Z wideout, run away from his side and throw in a curve ball by running to his side to keep it less predictable.

 

With Allen out, we may have less choices, I understand; but with a power back like Trent, we can use both Fleener and Dominique Jones as HBs in 1-2 splitting Fleener occasionally. They will have LBs on the field to guard against the run and then once you see a blitz, audible to Fleener to split out and cause a mismatch.

 

I agree with this. Just seems like we want to get DHB reps. But I'm definitely in favor of putting Hilton out there in two receiver sets more often.

[southwest1]

Pagano isn't the problem Greg Manusky is. His defense is too vanilla and his play calling(cb's giving 5 yard cushions and not blitzing more ) are terrible.The sooner we get rid of him the better our defense will be.

Rex Ryan should be available next season. I'd rather have Rob Ryan, but I'll settle for Rex Ryan as our next DC though. I prefer aggressive bravado in my DC personally. Feat or famine baby! Feast or famine..

 

Prey vs Pray has always been my defensive motto.

[southwest1]

Relax...Give Pagano a chance to prove himself...Let's not sink the ship & throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I'm not opposed to thinking about making a change on D either.

 

Ron Rivera should be available too. He will be fired in Carolina after this season too. I also liked Ron Rivera's step on the QB's throat mentality too. Pressure busts pipes & makes field generals very uncomfortable. 

 

I'm not demanding a DC change here, but what's wrong with bringing in Rex Ryan or Ron Rivera for a friendly conversation about generating some anarchy & chaos on the field & how they would create it in INDY. I'm game for that. What can it hurt? 

[Sova!]

I know we had a moral obligation to allow Pagano to come back and coach this year, but I feel we let a GREAT GREAT coach in Arians walk and keeping Pagano...Just look how the Steelers have went downhill without him at OC...I am beyond frustrated watching the first 2 games and the terrible decisions and playcalling on both sides of the ball...We are coaching horribly conservatively and this comes from the top!!! We r running 2 te, fb sets instead of 3 wides and it's so predictable any easy to defend...Pagano is coaching us like we are the old Ravens when we don't have old Ravens personnel??? We need to play a style more like the Falcons, but we are calling plays like we are the old Ravens or Cleveland Browns or something...It is obvious to me how much more talented we were than the Dolphins or Raiders and neither game should have been close....It has to go on the coach....Beyond frustrated so far this season...

I agree on the fact that the play calling has been extremely conservative, I have felt very frustrated knowing if we are about to do a pass or run play, even guessing the direction more times than not. Our defense has been very vanilla and it was one of my concerns during preseason. But that's a problem that can be fixed easily, all it takes are some cojones! Once they start taking believing in their players and taking more risks with exotic blitzes or bigger pass plays they'll start finding their groove.

 

But to me being a head coach isn't just about play calls, it's about instilling a certain attitude in all the players, making them buy into what you believe and to play hard for their coach. Throughout the entire preseason I have been very impressed seeing how much confidence and swagger he's created in that lockerroom, and they've become a very tight knit group. I have no doubt that he's a great and inspirational coach, but the missing piece to this puzzle is... cojones!

[Jason_]

. I know that he is a GREAT football coach...

 

that's HIGHLY debatable.  I'll put it this way, if I had to choose between Gruden and Jim Caldwell, I'd probably have to flip a coin.

[NewEra]

that's HIGHLY debatable. I'll put it this way, if I had to choose between Gruden and Jim Caldwell, I'd probably have to flip a coin.

.

And be * about either outcome and want to flip again!