Bears Trade Mack, Should the Colts Do the Same with Buckner?

[philba101]

The news this morning is that the Chicago Bears have traded high-profile pass Rusher Khalil Mack to the Chargers for a 2nd round and 6th round future pick. The Chargers recognizing that they may have a QB or 3 to chase in the AFC West, have agreed to take on the rest of Mack's 3-year/$63.9 million salary. This begs the question should the Colts be considering something similar with Deforest Buckner and his 4-year/$84 million contract? Buckner is relatively cheap at only $11 million against the cap in 2022, but in 2023 his salary balloons to $18.75 million and $20.25 million in 2024. Perhaps the Colts could trade Buckner for draft capital like the Bears or as part of a package for a new QB and not have to give up as much draft capital? What do you think?

[Colt.45]

Trading Buckner for draft picks? The 2022 class is rich at multiple positions including pass rush but i'm not so sure the inside D-line talent is as ripe so that means if you trade him away, you're not getting anything close to his talent from the draft. The 9ers at least had Javon Kinlaw to pick and they're expecting him to break out any season now.

 

Unless Dayo is ready to step up and.....yeah, i just don't think this is a good idea. Maybe next year?

[IrsaysArmy]

Love Buckner but he needs to be a game changer for what we paid/paying for him. Hope I don’t hurt any bodies feelings 

[philba101]

1 minute ago, IrsaysArmy said:

Love Buckner but he needs to be a game changer for what we paid/paying for him. Hope I don’t hurt any bodies feelings 

Love Buckner too but the next two years of salaries are high. Should the Colts consider trading him for a QB? 

[MikeCurtis]

Respectfully

 

Absolutely not

 

The 3 tech is a key position to this defense

 

Buckner is a perfect player for this role

 

Because we have no real threat at DE, he gets the double team, almost every play

 

By the end of the 3rd quarter, the guy is gassed

 

Once we get a stud DE in FA, (I hope) Buckner will actually do much better, and can bring the pressure up in the face of the QB

 

 

 

 

 

[Indyfan4life]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Buck put up some bigger numbers this season under Gus. Wasn’t he playing hurt last season too like Leonard?

[HoosierHero]

No, just no. 

[Colt.45]

Just now, IrsaysArmy said:

Love Buckner but he needs to be a game changer for what we paid/paying for him. Hope I don’t hurt any bodies feelings 

 

Game changer? While getting triple teamed? It's up to the other guys to step up. Maybe Buck can be better, there were times last season i thought he might be hurt, and then thought he wasn't pulling his weight. Then you look at  it more closely and see that the dude is getting ganged up on and the others on the D line who have single shots at getting to the QB just didnt take advantage.

[DougDew]

OP meant to ask, should we do the same with Leonard.

[BlackTiger]

Depends if we can land a decent qb, if not then hes more tradeable to me 

[IrsaysArmy]

13 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

 

Game changer? While getting triple teamed? It's up to the other guys to step up. Maybe Buck can be better, there were times last season i thought he might be hurt, and then thought he wasn't pulling his weight. Then you look at  it more closely and see that the dude is getting ganged up on and the others on the D line who have single shots at getting to the QB just didnt take advantage.

I can’t defend 20 mill to eat up double teams? 

[philba101]

11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

OP meant to ask, should we do the same with Leonard.

These guys are the heart and soul of our defense. Leonard will be relatively cheap this year as well at $11.1 million against the cap, but the following 4-years will be approximately $20 million per year. Both his and Buckner's deals are back-loaded.

[CantBeStopped]

We are number one in the league in cap space. Do we really need to free up more?!

[DaColts85]

4 minutes ago, IrsaysArmy said:

I can’t defend 20 mill to eat up double teams? 

Good thing is you don’t have too. He is a key guy for the D all around. So you replace him for a cheap guy who is worse and doesn’t need double teamed. How does this help? The salary cap is about to jump 15 to 20 mil per projections off of new tv money each year. So next year his 18 mil won’t even matter. 

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, philba101 said:

These guys are the heart and soul of our defense. Leonard will be relatively cheap this year as well at $11.1 million against the cap, but the following 4-years will be approximately $20 million per year. Both his and Buckner's deals are back-loaded.

Just asking the forum. 

 

If we pay our WILL and LG the same as our stud 3T, do you see a problem with how funds are allocated relative to positional value?

[DoubleE Colt]

7 minutes ago, IrsaysArmy said:

I can’t defend 20 mill to eat up double teams? 

Seeing as we're not short on cap space and recently drafted edge rush I'd prefer to find a way to give teams a reason not to double team Buckner rather than trade one of our better players away. Maybe then the 20 mill will be used to more than eat up double teams. 

[DaColts85]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Just asking the forum. 

 

If we pay our stud 3T $20m, and our WILL and LG the same as the 3T, do you see a problem with how funds are allocated relative to positional value?

What do you consider positional value? What are basing this on? The two top LG’s are getting 16 mil a year. So why wouldn’t Nelson? Leonard is one of the tops at his position as well. Wagner and Warner were getting paid well so why wouldn’t Leonard? So positional value puts them right on par. 

[IrsaysArmy]

8 minutes ago, DoubleE Colt said:

Seeing as we're not short on cap space and recently drafted edge rush I'd prefer to find a way to give teams a reason not to double team Buckner rather than trade one of our better players away. Maybe then the 20 mill will be used to more than eat up double teams. 

I think your on to something there 

[CantBeStopped]

Hey since we’re all wanting to trade our players that are top 3 at their respective positions should we throw Kenny in there too? I bet we could free up even more cap space by trading him! 

[Colt.45]

9 minutes ago, IrsaysArmy said:

I can’t defend 20 mill to eat up double teams? 

So you're suggesting we trade for someone who doesnt eat up triple teams which then allows teams to double team guys like Kwity who are close to getting 'there'? Again, i think this is a conversation for next year when his cap hit is more substantial. In the meanwhile, i dont think we're blowing this thing up so i dont think trading away this particular player is smart, he's an IMPACT player and while he may not have had an Aaron Donald type season, he still finished as our sack leader and has done that every season he's been here....which is a huge indictment on our ends. I think you keep Buck this year for sure.

[IrsaysArmy]

11 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

So you're suggesting we trade for someone who doesnt eat up triple teams which then allows teams to double team guys like Kwity who are close to getting 'there'? Again, i think this is a conversation for next year when his cap hit is more substantial. In the meanwhile, i dont think we're blowing this thing up so i dont think trading away this particular player is smart, he's an IMPACT player and while he may not have had an Aaron Donald type season, he still finished as our sack leader and has done that every season he's been here....which is a huge indictment on our ends. I think you keep Buck this year for sure.

I deffintely don’t want to trade him. I can’t even imagine how bad our line would be without Him. He’s a great player, I just thought last year was pretty underwhelming. Also I don’t think he was necessarily double teamed as much as we like to think 

[philba101]

The 2022 contract year is important for the Colts as several players are in the cheaper half of their salaries. However, 2023 is a different story. Here are the 2023 numbers: We are fortunate to have Pittman and Taylor on lower numbers for a few years.

1. Buckner-$19.75 million

2. Leonard-$20.2 million

3. QB?

4. B. Smith-$19 million

5. R. Kelly-$12.375 million

6. Q. Nelson? ($17+million?)

7. G. Stewart-$10.26 million

8. K. Moore-7.64 million

9. N. Hines-$6.2 million

10. M. Pittman-$2.7 million

11. J. Taylor-2.4 million

12. Q. Paye-3.7 million 

13. D. Odeyingbo-1.6 million

14. R. Sanchez-2.9 million

[Four2itus]

I looked for the biggest font to say no with.

 

 

 

......it wasn't big enough.........

[DougDew]

34 minutes ago, DaColts85 said:

What do you consider positional value? What are basing this on? The two top LG’s are getting 16 mil a year. So why wouldn’t Nelson? Leonard is one of the tops at his position as well. Wagner and Warner were getting paid well so why wouldn’t Leonard? So positional value puts them right on par. 

Positional value is a concept that looks at what a player is supposed to do from an Xs and Os standpoint, and assigns a certain level of talent needed to execute the responsibilities.

 

In the D that we had, the 3T is asked to stop the run AND pressure the QB.  A three down player, unlike Grover who is a NT run stopper primarily.  That takes a talented DT to do that.  Warren Sapp is the prototype, or Aaron Donald (who is so good he does even more things than a 3T).  The more talent required, the more money it takes.

 

The WILL, in last year's D, is a chase the ball player...tackle the ball carrier.  He is not asked to blitz much.  He is not asked to cover man to man the TE down the field.  Typically, athletic college LBers know how to run after and tackle the ball carrier.  Its the blitzing and coverage where they need more experience.  The more supply of the talent you have to execute the responsibilities of the position (an abundance of college LBers coming into the league each year), drives down the price of the second contract for a WILL..  Warner is a MIKE, and Mikes typically have more responsibilities than WILL's...sideline to sideline being one.

 

A LT is asked to block the D's best pass rusher...often times on an island with no help from the G or TE.  OTOH, a LG while asked to block an interior pass rusher, can get help from the C.  Typically, LT responsibilities require a more talented player than a LG,  More talent requires more money.

 

If you're paying the same money to the 3T, LG, and WILL, that implies that they are of equal talent....when you need superior talent at the 3T relative to the other two, IMO.  Having an abundance of talent (money) at positions that have less value, makes it harder to pay for the talent you need at LT and other important positions. like stretch the field WR, EDGE and QB.

[chad72]

Definitely not this year at least, you have to give Gus Bradley some key constants to work on. We do not want to hamstring a new DC by removing a key cog in the middle. Buckner is a big part of why our run D did work, IMO, next to Stewart. Demanding double teams definitely helped Stewart as well and you will have a ripple effect on the interior of the D. It would be a terrible decision.

 

IF, a big IF, we get a good 3-tech candidate that drops to us, like say Devonte Wyatt of Georgia at pick No.42 or a good prospect like Perrion Winfrey of Oklahoma to Round 3, we have to consider them, IMO. Then, evaluate in the next off season. Buckner is a leader of our D, and there is a reason for it. Seasoned DL and OL are more valuable than a 2nd round pick, which is what Mack got. Bears got robbed, IMO.

[Four2itus]

5 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Positional value is a concept that looks at what a player is supposed to do from an Xs and Os standpoint, and assigns a certain level of talent needed to execute the responsibilities.

I wish someone would do a breakdown of this concept, for each SB winning team over the last 20 years, salary paid by position. It would certainly clear any misconception about it's validity, or it's invalidity. 

[cjwhiskers]

For what? A bridge QB? No, let's not trade one of the top 2 key players our on our defense. Our defense is ranked pretty high WITHOUT a pass rush for a reason. Buckners value is misunderstood until we start hitting home more off the edge. We have plenty of cap space, we don't need to move his contract right now.

 

 

[ChuggaBeer]

So back to the OP's post.   Anyone else wonder why we weren't in on that Mack trade?   Seems like a pretty good trade by the Chargers.   He could have helped us here 

 

Did chargers pay too much?    I am guessing we have eyes on someone other than Dline for that 2nd.   Maybe they are trying to move up for a QB 

[Smonroe]

7 minutes ago, ChuggaBeer said:

So back to the OP's post.   Anyone else wonder why we weren't in on that Mack trade?   Seems like a pretty good trade by the Chargers.   He could have helped us here 

 

Did chargers pay too much?    I am guessing we have eyes on someone other than Dline for that 2nd.   Maybe they are trying to move up for a QB 

 

I think we're going to get someone in Free Agency (well, we better).  We should know in a few more days.  I think Ballard is in no position to "pay market value" anymore.  He's going to have to open up that wallet.

[buccolts]

No.

Restructure by this time next year.

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, philba101 said:

The news this morning is that the Chicago Bears have traded high-profile pass Rusher Khalil Mack to the Chargers for a 2nd round and 6th round future pick. The Chargers recognizing that they may have a QB or 3 to chase in the AFC West, have agreed to take on the rest of Mack's 3-year/$63.9 million salary. This begs the question should the Colts be considering something similar with Deforest Buckner and his 4-year/$84 million contract? Buckner is relatively cheap at only $11 million against the cap in 2022, but in 2023 his salary balloons to $18.75 million and $20.25 million in 2024. Perhaps the Colts could trade Buckner for draft capital like the Bears or as part of a package for a new QB and not have to give up as much draft capital? What do you think?

33 minutes ago, ChuggaBeer said:

So back to the OP's post.   Anyone else wonder why we weren't in on that Mack trade?   Seems like a pretty good trade by the Chargers.   He could have helped us here 

 

Did chargers pay too much?    I am guessing we have eyes on someone other than Dline for that 2nd.   Maybe they are trying to move up for a QB 

Probably because we’re trying for a QB1?

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Four2itus said:

I wish someone would do a breakdown of this concept, for each SB winning team over the last 20 years, salary paid by position. It would certainly clear any misconception about it's validity, or it's invalidity. 

That won't tell you anything, because a lot of superbowl winners take advantage of having players that play at near elite levels while still on their cheap rookie deals.  

 

Cincy went to the SB with elite QB play from a second year player...and Jamar Chase, etc.  When you have talent at the important positions but are not paying for that talent, that's what puts teams in position to win.  

 

Same with BUF and Allen.   Same with the Colts immediately after drafting Luck and TY.

 

Ballard needs to find his elite players through the draft quickly if he wants to win soon.  Otherwise he's going to have to wait until Leonard's and Nelson's high contracts become a small percentage of the salary cap due to cap inflation. 3 to 4 years from now the salary structure will be better aligned.  Pitt and JT fit that mold, but the defense is void of any type of player that can be called elite and cheap.

 

The point is that playoff teams get there by having near-elite level of play from the important positions, no matter how its funded, not necessarily by getting elite play from the lesser important positions. 

 

(And LAR has taken a completely different approach, trading away their draft picks for aging vets who are not necessarily that expensive...and sort of mortgage their future)

[CR91]

Obviously have no idea how much Buckner has changed this defense of you want to trade him.

[Scott Pennock]

2 hours ago, IrsaysArmy said:

Love Buckner but he needs to be a game changer for what we paid/paying for him. Hope I don’t hurt any bodies feelings 

9.5 sacks, 58 tackles, 26 QB Hits, and 31 pressures in his first year with us and 7 sacks, 68 tackles, 18 QB Hits, and 27 pressures in his second year with us from the DT spot drawing double teams every week isn't a game changer in your eyes?

 

That is not quite Aaron Donald production but not far off from the man who is considered the gold standard in the NFL. Plus Aaron Donald had two guys on the outside rushing the passer that helped him just as much as he helped them in Miller and Floyd. Who did Buckner have helping him? Paye - a rookie learning his way in the league?

 

You didn't hurt my feelings but I think your compass is off a little bit.

[AwesomeAustin]

I don’t know if they should trade him bc not sure how he will fit this defense.  I would hope they are willing to listen to offers on any player.  I’ve said this in a couple threads, I would understand if the team traded Buckner or JT for capital to draft an elite QB. I don’t want those players to leave but I would understand the move. 

[DaColts85]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

 

 

If you're paying the same money to the 3T, LG, and WILL, that implies that they are of equal talent....when you need superior talent at the 3T relative to the other two, IMO.  Having an abundance of talent (money) at positions that have less value, makes it harder to pay for the talent you need at LT and other important positions. like stretch the field WR, EDGE and QB.

I get what you are trying to say and yes 3T is huge. Buckner just happens to be one of the best. Aaron Donald is better but that is one man who plays for another team. 30 other teams would love to have a Buckner on their team. Hints why you pay for that. I can agree on paying the LG huge money but he is solid and we want a solid line so you keep him. And you will have to pay his worth. YOU can consider whatever player or position not worthy but yet our GM does see it as a fit. With Gus’s D the one thing we need is a solid DE or Leo and this is where ideally you spend Leonard type money. I agree with that though. He is a playmaker though so maybe they put him in different situations now. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Positional value is a concept that looks at what a player is supposed to do from an Xs and Os standpoint, and assigns a certain level of talent needed to execute the responsibilities.

 

In the D that we had, the 3T is asked to stop the run AND pressure the QB.  A three down player, unlike Grover who is a NT run stopper primarily.  That takes a talented DT to do that.  Warren Sapp is the prototype, or Aaron Donald (who is so good he does even more things than a 3T).  The more talent required, the more money it takes.

 

The WILL, in last year's D, is a chase the ball player...tackle the ball carrier.  He is not asked to blitz much.  He is not asked to cover man to man the TE down the field.  Typically, athletic college LBers know how to run after and tackle the ball carrier.  Its the blitzing and coverage where they need more experience.  The more supply of the talent you have to execute the responsibilities of the position (an abundance of college LBers coming into the league each year), drives down the price of the second contract for a WILL..  Warner is a MIKE, and Mikes typically have more responsibilities than WILL's...sideline to sideline being one.

 

A LT is asked to block the D's best pass rusher...often times on an island with no help from the G or TE.  OTOH, a LG while asked to block an interior pass rusher, can get help from the C.  Typically, LT responsibilities require a more talented player than a LG,  More talent requires more money.

 

If you're paying the same money to the 3T, LG, and WILL, that implies that they are of equal talent....when you need superior talent at the 3T relative to the other two, IMO.  Having an abundance of talent (money) at positions that have less value, makes it harder to pay for the talent you need at LT and other important positions. like stretch the field WR, EDGE and QB.

When you write posts like this do you have to pay Moosehead and Nick for copyright infringement or do they pay you when they write their posts?    
 

(Asking for a friend….. )

[Les Poulains]

Nah, Buckner's position is important enough that you can build an effective modern NFL defense around someone like him with his inside pressure.

 

The players we should consider trading are Nelson and Leonard.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, philba101 said:

The news this morning is that the Chicago Bears have traded high-profile pass Rusher Khalil Mack to the Chargers for a 2nd round and 6th round future pick. The Chargers recognizing that they may have a QB or 3 to chase in the AFC West, have agreed to take on the rest of Mack's 3-year/$63.9 million salary. This begs the question should the Colts be considering something similar with Deforest Buckner and his 4-year/$84 million contract? Buckner is relatively cheap at only $11 million against the cap in 2022, but in 2023 his salary balloons to $18.75 million and $20.25 million in 2024. Perhaps the Colts could trade Buckner for draft capital like the Bears or as part of a package for a new QB and not have to give up as much draft capital? What do you think?

The most shocking part of the trade is that the Rams had any picks to trade. I tought they didn't have a pick till 2030?????!!!!!

[Jackie Daytona]

2 hours ago, IrsaysArmy said:

Love Buckner but he needs to be a game changer for what we paid/paying for him. Hope I don’t hurt any bodies feelings 

Say what?   You do realize the number of DT better than Buckner is like.....1 right?

4 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

The most shocking part of the trade is that the Rams had any picks to trade. I tought they didn't have a pick till 2030?????!!!!!

The rams?