Reich Coaching Decisions Post-game Takes(Mega Merge)

[StatesmanN]

Just now, NannyMcafee said:

 

I agree. The players played hard for all 4 qtrs imo which I cant say for the regular season. Even the third qtr where they struggled all year they played all out. Why is that not the case for the regular season? 

 

Also last hear the Colts were the opposite. A great red zone team vs this year they struggled in the red zone. So whats the problem? 

Rivers can't run or throw the ball with RPMs/Spin, and in tight quarters in the redzone, those are 2 big things you need from your QB.

[NannyMcafee]

1 hour ago, Hoose said:

Agree. Predictably bad decisions. And awful game management. I like Frank but he is a lousy game day play caller. If he gives up the play calling I’d feel better about the Colts’ future. But until then.....going for it 4th and 4 after calling a mindlessly stupid sweep the play before when it was 3rd and 1 ( and you had a timeout to figure out the play); consistently getting cute in the red zone with Jacoby et al and failing; giving up on the run; OR, calling run after run, usually the same play, until it gets stuffed; and bad management of your TO’s. Yeah, I’m getting real tired of Frank’s learning on the job. He needs to step up his game. I hope he can. 

 

In the end I think Franks pros out weigh his cons at this point in his career. 

[StatesmanN]

7 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

In the end I think Franks pros out weigh his cons at this point in his career. 

I would not be ready to get rid of Frank yet, but I am no where near sold on him....mainly due to his in game coaching decisions and his loyalty to certain players like Adam V and possibly Rivers this year.

 

His in game decisions imo are some of the worst I have seen a coach make and he does not seem to get better.  Last week against the Jags and this week against the Bills being prime examples.

[NannyMcafee]

7 minutes ago, StatesmanN said:

I would not be ready to get rid of Frank yet, but I am no where near sold on him....mainly due to his in game coaching decisions and his loyalty to certain players like Adam V and possibly Rivers this year.

 

His in game decisions imo are some of the worst I have seen a coach make and he does not seem to get better.  Last week against the Jags and this week against the Bills being prime examples.

 

If this coming season he hasn't taken a step forward then its a step back in my faith in his ability to coach this team successfully 

[jszfunk]

23 hours ago, pgt_rob said:

Missed field goals. 
Turay off sides gifting them. 
Too many drops. 
Ref bad call, clearly toes out of bounds. 
Reich too aggressive on 4th down. 

Good post. Not really much else to say than that. Sums it up.

[jszfunk]

23 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I agree. With all the great HC candidates still, I would fire him and hire someone else. We should of won this game relatively easily.

Who are the great candidates?

[csmopar]

23 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I agree. With all the great HC candidates still, I would fire him and hire someone else. We should of won this game relatively easily.

Didn’t you also want McDaniels or Gruden?

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

 

[EastStreet]

8 hours ago, w87r said:

I count 3.

 

1. Running toss play instead of running right up the guy on 3rd and goal from the 1, resulting in losing 3 yards. Which led to #2

2. Going for it on 4th and goal from 4, where of which a run up the gut in 3rd down would of made the decision better to go for it on 4th. If we get stopped on 4th and goal from 1, I think the decision is less scrutinized and chances of Bills doing anything decreases. Would of been trying to just get out if endzone.

3. Beyond horrible decision to challenge a play that was clear and obvious.

 

So 2 of his 3 bad decisions resulted from 1 bad play call, trying to outsmart opponent(which he tries to do all to often). Which he admitted after the game he should if ran up the gut. The other,  well as stated was/should've been completely avoided. Which he also admitted after game. Not that admitting after the game helps anything, but at least he acknowledged his mistakes.

 

 

Outside of that the decision to go for 2 doesn't matter because we got the next one. The 1st one was a horrible decision at the time but after getting 2nd one it is irrelevant. Equaled themselves out.

I've tried to forget, lol... 

But I have the following, There's more, but these are the big head scratchers to me.

 

1) challenge, losing a TO

2) not taking the FG

3) not taking the XP to cut it to 7. Making the 2nd one, doesn't erase the bonehead from the 1st.

4) 1st and goal - throwing.. why throw... And if you're going to throw, why to Burton and not a big TE or Pittman... 

5) 2nd and goal -using Hines (and an APB in general) to run up the gut instead of the hottest RB in the league.

6) 3rd and goal - running JT over LT.... why in the H over LT when he's a guy we just got off the streets/retirement

7) Whatever reason, or lack of play call, that caused us to take the 1st TO of the 2H on 1st down... 

8) in general, TO management, which kept us from running any kind of real O on that last drive.

9) Using the Bigs with great success between the 20s, yet forgetting about them in the RZ

10) Not rushing the edge more vs their tiny DBs.

 

 

[w87r]

6 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

1) challenge, losing a TO

Most definitely

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

2) not taking the FG

4) 1st and goal - throwing.. why throw... And if you're going to throw, why to Burton and not a big TE or Pittman... 

5) 2nd and goal -using Hines (and an APB in general) to run up the gut instead of the hottest RB in the league.

6) 3rd and goal - running JT over LT.... why in the H over LT when he's a guy we just got off the streets/retirement

2 of these 3 made my list

 

Didn't mind the shovel pass to Burton, it is pretty safe play and almost got home.

 

I was calling for Hines/Taylor wildcat then they came out in formation, so I was excited. Not sure of Hines was suppose to keep it or if it was a legit option and he just did. Wont fault Frank on that one.

3rd down toss and then not taking FG after 3yd loss were the 2 that made my list.

 

11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

3) not taking the XP to cut it to 7. Making the 2nd one, doesn't erase the bonehead from the 1st.

Like I said somewhere on thread I was ready for the firing after the first 2pt conversion, made no sense, don't care what analytics say, but the second one was successful it didn't cost us anything so off the hook at least on calls that hurt us.

 

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

7) Whatever reason, or lack of play call, that caused us to take the 1st TO of the 2H on 1st down...

Don't think that was the case. I think there was an initial issue if the prior pass I believe to Doyle was a a 1st down. Could be wrong but I think that is what happened. Rivers was thinking the play clock should of been bumped because of something on the field.

 

15 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

8) in general, TO management, which kept us from running any kind of real O on that last drive.

I think this ties in with the bad challenge and timeout from right above. The 3rd TO came after 3rd down before the 2 minute warning, so that one was fine. Saved 30 seconds instead of clock ticking to the 2 minute warning.

 

18 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

9) Using the Bigs with great success between the 20s, yet forgetting about them in the RZ

 Perhaps, but they did throw ro Pittman on the 4th down and Burton on the first down. Just referencing the one drive here.

 

19 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

10) Not rushing the edge more vs their tiny DBs.

I cant go here because I had an issue with them trying the edge on the 3rd and goal. Your #6, and 1 of my 3, so I cant have it both ways.

[Yoshinator]

2 hours ago, csmopar said:

Didn’t you also want McDaniels or Gruden?

Nope, wasn't me on McDaniels. I may of wanted Gruden 3 years ago, but not anytime recently.

[Yoshinator]

3 hours ago, jszfunk said:

Who are the great candidates?

Eric Bieniemy, Chiefs Offensive Coordinator

Brian Daboll, Bills Offensive Coordinator

Joe Brady, Panthers Offensive Coordinator

Robert Saleh, 49ers Defensive Coordinator

Don Martindale, Ravens Defensive Coordinator

Urban Meyer, former Ohio State Coach

Matt Campbell, Iowa State Coach

Dan Mullen, Florida Head Coach

 

There's 8 guys right there I would take a chance on over Frank Reich. That doesn't even count the obvious "Fire Reich and promote Eberflus" line either.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

They stopped us running the ball on two straight plays at the goal line. So of course you need to try something different. Reich explained that because the way they were lined up the shovel pass should of worked. I even saw a analyst say it was a good call with the coverage they had. The issue was why is Dulin asked to block there. That is the only part that didn’t make sense. 

 

We did need to pass more. Rivers mobility does hurt us when we are down on the goal line like that. 

[EastStreet]

38 minutes ago, w87r said:

Most definitely

2 of these 3 made my list

 

Didn't mind the shovel pass to Burton, it is pretty safe play and almost got home.

If I'm going to shovel pass it at all, it would be to JT, or a really big guy that can move the pile. 

38 minutes ago, w87r said:

 

I was calling for Hines/Taylor wildcat then they came out in formation, so I was excited. Not sure of Hines was suppose to keep it or if it was a legit option and he just did. Wont fault Frank on that one.

3rd down toss and then not taking FG after 3yd loss were the 2 that made my list.

 

Like I said somewhere on thread I was ready for the firing after the first 2pt conversion, made no sense, don't care what analytics say, but the second one was successful it didn't cost us anything so off the hook at least on calls that hurt us.

Like i said, making the second doesn't erase the first. Pretty sure Reich even when against the analytics. One media guy yesterday said something like "he didn't pull that call of the analytics card, that was all Frank, and will need to explain"

 

38 minutes ago, w87r said:

 

Don't think that was the case. I think there was an initial issue if the prior pass I believe to Doyle was a a 1st down. Could be wrong but I think that is what happened. Rivers was thinking the play clock should of been bumped because of something on the field.

Whatever it was, it was unneeded. At the time, I didn't see it as a Rivers issue, but a communications-coming-in issue. I'll have to go back and look if I can muster the strength to do a rewatch from the DVR lol... Right now, watching it again would just make me even more irritated at FR.... Even if it wasn't a FR issues, the list is still long.

38 minutes ago, w87r said:

 

I think this ties in with the bad challenge and timeout from right above. The 3rd TO came after 3rd down before the 2 minute warning, so that one was fine. Saved 30 seconds instead of clock ticking to the 2 minute warning.

 

 Perhaps, but they did throw ro Pittman on the 4th down and Burton on the first down. Just referencing the one drive here.

Burton IMO is not a big. Doyle, MAC, PIttman. Need to be 6-4 or more to be called a big. Pascal IIRC is taller than Burton.

38 minutes ago, w87r said:

I cant go here because I had an issue with them trying the edge on the 3rd and goal. Your #6, and 1 of my 3, so I cant have it both ways.

I'm talking between the 20s in wide sets, not with a shortened field near the goal line. Very different.

[NannyMcafee]

2 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Eric Bieniemy, Chiefs Offensive Coordinator

Brian Daboll, Bills Offensive Coordinator

Joe Brady, Panthers Offensive Coordinator

Robert Saleh, 49ers Defensive Coordinator

Don Martindale, Ravens Defensive Coordinator

Urban Meyer, former Ohio State Coach

Matt Campbell, Iowa State Coach

Dan Mullen, Florida Head Coach

 

There's 8 guys right there I would take a chance on over Frank Reich. That doesn't even count the obvious "Fire Reich and promote Eberflus" line either.

 

Let's just hire one every 3 years. Then we will never reach the SB and become the laughing stock of the NFL because we never keep a coach long enough to prove himself. I am far from a Frank Reich fan, but he simply needs to be given more time before jumping ship on him. My two cents. Give the guy some time to correct some of these things. Its not like we are wasting the prime of our franchise QB. 

 

I have faith in Ballard after 4 years to bring in talent worthy of SB wins. The biggest thing you would need to worry about is losing years of your QB and thats just not a risk here. 

 

Also, it doesn't matter what you want. Irsay is on the FR train for the next 2 or 3 (go look at his latest interview) years unless Frank completely falls apart, and he hasn't done so. Irsay is a big FR fan. 

[TimetobringDfence!]

5 hours ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

In the end I think Franks pros out weigh his cons at this point in his career. 

I have to agree, but the man has too reflect a bit and pump his brakes a little. He shouldnt have called that challenge. I wish we had a mobile QB it fits his offensive style so much better than a pocket passer.

[ojsglove]

Franks a good guy but he is not a head coach.  As I said before, this team is not mentally tough enough to win a SB,  and that is on Frank. 

[Yoshinator]

47 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

 

Let's just hire one every 3 years. Then we will never reach the SB and become the laughing stock of the NFL because we never keep a coach long enough to prove himself. I am far from a Frank Reich fan, but he simply needs to be given more time before jumping ship on him. My two cents. Give the guy some time to correct some of these things. Its not like we are wasting the prime of our franchise QB. 

 

I have faith in Ballard after 4 years to bring in talent worthy of SB wins. The biggest thing you would need to worry about is losing years of your QB and thats just not a risk here. 

 

Also, it doesn't matter what you want. Irsay is on the FR train for the next 2 or 3 (go look at his latest interview) years unless Frank completely falls apart, and he hasn't done so. Irsay is a big FR fan. 

It doesn't matter what any of us want. Your opinion and mine mean exactly the same. If you feel everyone's opinion is worthless here, then maybe you shouldn't be on an opinion forum where people discuss their beliefs about this team. That cliched line is completely outdated and shows you have no argument against what I said. You just like Frank Reich. You didn't even make an argument why Frank Reich was better than the list of candidates I preferred over him.

[TimetobringDfence!]

50 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

I have to agree, but the man has too reflect a bit and pump his brakes a little. He shouldnt have called that challenge. I wish we had a mobile QB it fits his offensive style so much better than a pocket passer.

I wonder if Cleveland's OC is available?

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

12 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I had very little to complain about Frank yesterday, we were playing a hot offense and FG's weren't beating Josh Allen. Going for it is fine with me as long as you are deep in your territory, if you don't get it the other the team is still pinned way back. The use of the timeouts is really the only the thing that bothered me.

i like going for it but we need better talent for it to work well

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

ballard needs to get us some studs on offense so going for it on fourth is high percentage

 

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

ballard needs to get us some studs on offense so going for it on fourth is high percentage

 

[EastStreet]

17 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

ballard needs to get us some studs on offense so going for it on fourth is high percentage

 

 

The Colts put up 24pts (could have been a for sure 27) and 472 yards of O on a very good D, on the road.

 

Buffalo's D averages 352. We put up 120 more than their average. Our passing game put up 309 (+77) total yards, and they average 232...... They average 119 rushing, we put up 163 yards (+44)....

 

Sorry man, going for it on 4th is low %. Our O, or "lack of studs" was not the problem. If anything, it was coaching, and pass D. Passing and running game were the least of our issues.

 

 

[Thunderbolt]

All points taken on all posters and I agree that R & R need to take a permanent hiatus.

[FormerBolt]

Coach Reich let the media influence his decisions. The Colts are better than he fhought. The talking heads said the Colts would be outscored by twenty points against the Bills. So Reich wanted every last point he could get. That's why he went for a td instead of a field goal. It's why he went for 2 points instead of one. As it rurned out, the Colts only needed to play their usual game, and they would've won. It is an example of how people who aren't on the field influenced a game 

[lollygagger8]

Keep Frank as the head coach, but he needs to hand over the play calling to Sirianni. 

 

While I don't like the call to go for the TD (instead of taking the FG) Rivers has got to make that throw to Pittmann. 

 

I also think we kept the wrong kicker, but that's for another time. 

[NannyMcafee]

14 hours ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

I have to agree, but the man has too reflect a bit and pump his brakes a little. He shouldnt have called that challenge. I wish we had a mobile QB it fits his offensive style so much better than a pocket passer.

 

My biggest problem is analytics. Even after the loss in his interview he talked about having to talk to his analytics guy.... theres more to football than this and that frustrates me. 

[stitches]

For whatever it's worth:

 

 

[stitches]

Here's the analytics guys from PFF going in a 10 minute rant in defense of Frank Reich and his 4th down decisions in the game. Their numbers all say both decisions were no brainers and Reich was the only coach this weekend that made analytically sound decisions and they are sick to their stomach that he's getting killed for that and other coaches that made horrible decisions (Vrabel punting from opponent 40 down 4 in the 4th, Tomlin punting on 4th and 1, etc) are not getting the criticism they deserve for actually screwing up(rant starts at about 42:30):

 

 

[chad72]

23 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I've tried to forget, lol... 

But I have the following, There's more, but these are the big head scratchers to me.

 

1) challenge, losing a TO

2) not taking the FG

3) not taking the XP to cut it to 7. Making the 2nd one, doesn't erase the bonehead from the 1st.

4) 1st and goal - throwing.. why throw... And if you're going to throw, why to Burton and not a big TE or Pittman... 

5) 2nd and goal -using Hines (and an APB in general) to run up the gut instead of the hottest RB in the league.

6) 3rd and goal - running JT over LT.... why in the H over LT when he's a guy we just got off the streets/retirement

7) Whatever reason, or lack of play call, that caused us to take the 1st TO of the 2H on 1st down... 

8) in general, TO management, which kept us from running any kind of real O on that last drive.

9) Using the Bigs with great success between the 20s, yet forgetting about them in the RZ

10) Not rushing the edge more vs their tiny DBs.

 

 

 

Now watch the Ravens' Harbaugh in contrast, I am curious to see.

[Dingus McGirt]

10 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

Keep Frank as the head coach, but he needs to hand over the play calling to Sirianni. 

 

While I don't like the call to go for the TD (instead of taking the FG) Rivers has got to make that throw to Pittmann. 

 

I also think we kept the wrong kicker, but that's for another time. 

Does it matter who the playcaller is if every decision is dictated by "Analytics?"

[CoachLite]

13 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Does it matter who the playcaller is if every decision is dictated by "Analytics?"

Analytics doesn't make decisions for you, it gives information about past trends and probabilities. The main problem is that, in the same way people don't understand science and AI, they don't understand how missing context information affects analytics. 

[SteelCityColt]

24 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Does it matter who the playcaller is if every decision is dictated by "Analytics?"

A decision to go for it or not still requires a play call, stop being facetious.

[Dingus McGirt]

29 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

A decision to go for it or not still requires a play call, stop being facetious.

Yes.  But, a play call dictated by analytics.

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

Now watch the Ravens' Harbaugh in contrast, I am curious to see.

What I didn't list, and is as much the issue as anything else, is just his lack of play calling feel and flow, and lack of adjustments. Either lack of situational awareness, or just plain stubbornness.

 

I watch way too much football on the NFL and college level. Some play callers are just smooth, and are able to make adjustments on the fly. I've never ever felt that way about Frank. I did feel it at times when Luck was playing, but that was Luck making changes at the line, and really doing his own thing. It's pretty obvious (to me at least), that Frank was pretty hands off to the scheme in his first year, and let Luck do his thing.

 

Harbaugh to me is a good coach. Hard to grade him on some things with Jackson. Jackson isn't a guy you can coach a well rounded game plan with. He's a guy you really have to tailor everything around. 

[Colt.45]

Take some time to hop on the Bills forums. Quite a few of them thought they were lucky to win. Relief is the palpable feeling.

Many of them feel they were.....outCOACHED.

 

"Bills got out coached but won. That’s what great teams do. Not gonna be that lucky next week though so they better shape up."

"On the Colts site they want to fire Reich. "

"I knew the Colts had a good OL, but man even I underestimated them. Their run blocking and blocks on screens was phenomenal all day. Was glad to escape this one with the W."

"Bills got exposed and outplayed today by the Colts. Indy basically game that game away. Buffalo will get knocked out next week."

1 hour ago, stitches said:

Here's the analytics guys from PFF going in a 10 minute rant in defense of Frank Reich and his 4th down decisions in the game. Their numbers all say both decisions were no brainers and Reich was the only coach this weekend that made analytically sound decisions and they are sick to their stomach that he's getting killed for that and other coaches that made horrible decisions (Vrabel punting from opponent 40 down 4 in the 4th, Tomlin punting on 4th and 1, etc) are not getting the criticism they deserve for actually screwing up(rant starts at about 42:30):

 

 

Pittsburgh deserved to lose for that decision Mike T made. UNACCEPTABLE.

[Sumo63]

51 minutes ago, CoachLite said:

Analytics doesn't make decisions for you, it gives information about past trends and probabilities. The main problem is that, in the same way people don't understand science and AI, they don't understand how missing context information affects analytics. 

Reich said in his presser that his initial "gut" call was a field goal but was swayed by the analytics so in this case (if he is to be believed) analytics did make the decision for him.....leads me to believe that he just needs to trust himself a little more.  Hopefully year 4 he'll find a better balance.

 

Hes a good coach.  I dont think he was ready for a HC gig when McDaniels jumped ship so hes kinda learning as he goes.  

 

I'm still dead inside from the loss btw.  What a way to go out.

[SteelCityColt]

47 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Yes.  But, a play call dictated by analytics.

The two are separate things. You still need to call a play, likely adjust it at the line based on what the D is showing. 
 

You telling me Rivers is running the numbers at the line? Assuming it’s not 4th and short and we’re sneaking Brissett.

 

 

[CoachLite]

25 minutes ago, Sumo63 said:

Reich said in his presser that his initial "gut" call was a field goal but was swayed by the analytics so in this case (if he is to be believed) analytics did make the decision for him.....leads me to believe that he just needs to trust himself a little more.  Hopefully year 4 he'll find a better balance.

 

Hes a good coach.  I dont think he was ready for a HC gig when McDaniels jumped ship so hes kinda learning as he goes.  

 

I'm still dead inside from the loss btw.  What a way to go out.

He fell into the digital analytics trap. Many newbies to the field do, too. I've been in the mod/sim/vis field using advanced AI for over 20 years. Rule #1: If one model fits the data, there may be others that are better that fit the data. Don't go with the first model you find. Rule #2: Context matters.

[EastStreet]

While I disagree with the 4th down call, I disliked the 3 plays before, as much or more.