Is it time for Pagano to change his philosphy?

[BCoop]

Now in the 5th season of the Grigson/Pagano tenure, can we finally put to rest the idea that we are somehow building this monster of a team that will ground and pound on offense and dictate the flow of the game on defense? We've heard these traits endlessly pitched as the ideal version of the Colts for the Luck era in an effort to preserve Luck and produce a more well-rounded product on the field. Instead, the run-game and defensive side of the ball are the two biggest weaknesses of this team (and still would be if we were completely healthy).

 

To watch this team come out slow yet again against an underwhelming Lions team makes me think the Colts are just too committed to forcing a square peg through a round hole. This team, as currently constructed and coached, is never going to manage a game on the ground or defensively. It's time to go no huddle and let the offense score early and often. Let Luck make quick decisions, sling the ball down the field, and spread the defense out so Frank has at least an ounce of breathing room running the ball. Defensively, use the talent you have in the secondary and hope they can make plays. When healthy, there are guys on the backside that can make enough winning plays to get our offense back on the field. Up front, figure out some strategy that can utilize the limited strengths you have in that group. Riddick, Abdullah, and Ebron combined for 15 catches, 166 yards, and 3 touchdowns. Throw in another 108 yards on the ground (5.7ypc) and all that "exotic, attacking pressure" just didn't cut it. The secondary was supposed to be the weak link yesterday with all the injuries, but the DL and LB corps were the ones consistently out of position and missing tackles.

 

It really doesn't feel like this team is that far off from a talent perspective. I just sense the scheme and philosophy that Pagano has for the team has resulted in some consistent, negative themes that carried over into yet another slow start last night.

 

Edit: To be clear, I'm not calling for anyone to be fired. I'd just like to see some flexibility, and more importantly, honesty with where this team is at from a development perspective when it comes to starting games. At some point, we have to open games playing to our strengths, even if it doesn't meet the ideal vision for the team in the long run.

[21isSuperman]

You gotta give the guy some talent to work with to see what he can really do.  I have some faith in Pagano as a head coach...not much, but some.  But Grigson hasn't really helped him with this roster we have.  Where are the playmakers on defense?  Where is the blue chip talent?  Luck aside, has Grigson brought in anyone that is even in consideration to be an All-Pro at their position?  He went 0/7 in the 2013 draft, the 2013 free agent class was brutal, the defense has no playmakers that stand out.

[#12.]

People are forgetting that, yes, Chuck is the figurehead, but we basically have a new coaching staff - new OC, new DC... new coaches everywhere. 

 

Same story.  Same team.  The problem is the guy supplying the talent. 

[BCoop]

I agree with both of you that we haven't compiled the necessary talent on the defensive side of the ball to be successful. But, that's kind of what I'm getting at when it comes to Pagano and slow starts. At what point does Pagano, as the head coach of this team, decide to change directions and come out of the gate utilizing your best strengths? We know this team isn't going to set the tone on the ground offensively, and we know the defense isn't going to apply a ton of pressure and force 3 and outs. So, why do we keep counting on it to start games?

 

We handcuff the offense and lean on the defense entirely too much to start games and it seems week after week (or season after season) we come out slow until we realize Luck has to take over and play superman the rest of the game. Am I off here?

[#12.]

4 minutes ago, BCoop said:

 

 

We handcuff the offense and lean on the defense entirely too much to start games and it seems week after week (or season after season) we come out slow until we realize Luck has to take over and play superman the rest of the game. Am I off here?

 

The funny thing is it doesn't really matter what we do.  At times we've come out gunning it, like against Buffalo and early last season, and that didn't work either.  No matter what we do, we fall behind 2-3 TDs. 

[BCoop]

1 hour ago, #12. said:

 

The funny thing is it doesn't really matter what we do.  At times we've come out gunning it, like against Buffalo and early last season, and that didn't work either.  No matter what we do, we fall behind 2-3 TDs. 

 

You may be right. I'm still hopeful that gunning it with Chud is going to be more successful than gunning it with Pep Hamilton. I'm not even asking for them to launch it down the field every play. Just pick up the pace and try to force the opposing defense on their heels a bit. I don't remember this "establish the run" strategy working once over the past couple years.

[YourNextGM]

His philosophy LOL

[Restored]

1 hour ago, #12. said:

People are forgetting that, yes, Chuck is the figurehead, but we basically have a new coaching staff - new OC, new DC... new coaches everywhere. 

 

Same story.  Same team.  The problem is the guy supplying the talent. 

 

He's done well in providing offensive talent. Defense on the other hand... Not so much.

[csmopar]

1 hour ago, 21isSuperman said:

You gotta give the guy some talent to work with to see what he can really do.  I have some faith in Pagano as a head coach...not much, but some.  But Grigson hasn't really helped him with this roster we have.  Where are the playmakers on defense?  Where is the blue chip talent?  Luck aside, has Grigson brought in anyone that is even in consideration to be an All-Pro at their position?  He went 0/7 in the 2013 draft, the 2013 free agent class was brutal, the defense has no playmakers that stand out.

Its not a talent issue, I'm firmly in the wagon that says it's a coaching issue.  How many players since 2012 have we had, yet it's always slow starts, several examples of mismanaging the clock.  Look what happens when they let Luck fully call plays in a no huddle. We score like crazy.  We should be running a no huddle for 60 minutes, let luck make the calls. We will win games.  Fire Pagano..... ASAP,  I know its been only one game, but that timeout without burning clock was the nail in the coffin for me.  Unless he changes his crappy game planning and game management, fire him.

[SP_21]

44 minutes ago, BCoop said:

 

You may be right. I'm still hopeful that gunning it with Chud is going to be more successful than gunning it with Pep Hamilton. I'm not even asking for them to launch it down the field every play. Just pick up the pace and try to force the opposing defense on their heels a bit. I don't remember this "establish the run" strategy working once over the past couple years.

It worked against the 49ers in '14. The 30+ games since... not so much

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, BCoop said:

Now in the 5th season of the Grigson/Pagano tenure, can we finally put to rest the idea that we are somehow building this monster of a team that will ground and pound on offense and dictate the flow of the game on defense? We've heard these traits endlessly pitched as the ideal version of the Colts for the Luck era in an effort to preserve Luck and produce a more well-rounded product on the field. Instead, the run-game and defensive side of the ball are the two biggest weaknesses of this team (and still would be if we were completely healthy).

 

To watch this team come out slow yet again against an underwhelming Lions team makes me think the Colts are just too committed to forcing a square peg through a round hole. This team, as currently constructed and coached, is never going to manage a game on the ground or defensively. It's time to go no huddle and let the offense score early and often. Let Luck make quick decisions, sling the ball down the field, and spread the defense out so Frank has at least an ounce of breathing room running the ball. Defensively, use the talent you have in the secondary and hope they can make plays. When healthy, there are guys on the backside that can make enough winning plays to get our offense back on the field. Up front, figure out some strategy that can utilize the limited strengths you have in that group. Riddick, Abdullah, and Ebron combined for 15 catches, 166 yards, and 3 touchdowns. Throw in another 108 yards on the ground (5.7ypc) and all that "exotic, attacking pressure" just didn't cut it. The secondary was supposed to be the weak link yesterday with all the injuries, but the DL and LB corps were the ones consistently out of position and missing tackles.

 

It really doesn't feel like this team is that far off from a talent perspective. I just sense the scheme and philosophy that Pagano has for the team has resulted in some consistent, negative themes that carried over into yet another slow start last night.

 

Edit: To be clear, I'm not calling for anyone to be fired. I'd just like to see some flexibility, and more importantly, honesty with where this team is at from a development perspective when it comes to starting games. At some point, we have to open games playing to our strengths, even if it doesn't meet the ideal vision for the team in the long run.

 

First,  I'd completely disagree with the idea that we've got a talented team.

 

If everyone was healthy,  we'd have an average roster.       But we're not even close to that.

 

No Anderson, Jones, Geather or Vonte.        That's a lot of talent to be missing.

 

THEN,   we lost the CB Robinson AND the Safety, Green in the first half.     

 

We're missing a ton of guys.

 

We threw the ball 47 times yesterday.....    not because we want to,   but because we have to.

 

All Pagano needs is some players.       He's shown when he's got some talent,  he can win.

 

[runthepost]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

First,  I'd completely disagree with the idea that we've got a talented team.

 

If everyone was healthy,  we'd have an average roster.       But we're not even close to that.

 

No Anderson, Jones, Geather or Vonte.        That's a lot of talent to be missing.

 

THEN,   we lost the CB Robinson AND the Safety, Green in the first half.     

 

We're missing a ton of guys.

 

We threw the ball 47 times yesterday.....    not because we want to,   but because we have to.

 

All Pagano needs is some players.       He's shown when he's got some talent,  he can win.

 

Until we play New England Pittsburgh or the jets

[21isSuperman]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

Its not a talent issue, I'm firmly in the wagon that says it's a coaching issue.  How many players since 2012 have we had, yet it's always slow starts, several examples of mismanaging the clock.  Look what happens when they let Luck fully call plays in a no huddle. We score like crazy.  We should be running a no huddle for 60 minutes, let luck make the calls. We will win games.  Fire Pagano..... ASAP,  I know its been only one game, but that timeout without burning clock was the nail in the coffin for me.  Unless he changes his crappy game planning and game management, fire him.

I'm not saying our coaching staff is great, but the bigger issue is a lack of talent, in my opinion.  Grigson is hurting the team more than Pagano.

 

And you can't run a no huddle for 60 mins and let your QB make all the calls. 

[Buck Showalter]

1 hour ago, SP_21 said:

It worked against the 49ers in '14. The 30+ games since... not so much

Ha, I was gonna post the same thing, that 49er game (how ever many seasons ago) has sadly been the best Colts fans have seen a running game in Luck's career...

[Myles]

I absolutely think he should change his coaching philosophy.   He has proven to be incapable of coaching in this fashion.   There is a talent issue, but not on offense.   His teams being stagnant until down by 3 scores shows me he is out of sync early.

Teams are going to run like heck on this team this year unless we score early and often.  

[MB-ColtsFan]

1 hour ago, csmopar said:

Its not a talent issue, I'm firmly in the wagon that says it's a coaching issue.  How many players since 2012 have we had, yet it's always slow starts, several examples of mismanaging the clock.  Look what happens when they let Luck fully call plays in a no huddle. We score like crazy.  We should be running a no huddle for 60 minutes, let luck make the calls. We will win games.  Fire Pagano..... ASAP,  I know its been only one game, but that timeout without burning clock was the nail in the coffin for me.  Unless he changes his crappy game planning and game management, fire him.

My only response here is in regard to the 60 minute no huddle.  I think Pags is trying to prevent the D from getting burned out too quickly in the game.  We have literally no depth anymore, so if Luck doesn't get into a nice groove to start the game you've got a bunch of 3 and outs while burning 1 minute of Time of Possession.  I don't event want to think about how ugly the rest of the game would be.

 

I would like to see shorter passes to start the game using play action.  Once we get the short stuff going we

can actually start running it and keeping the LB's in.  Then, once Luck gets his mojo going we can go over the top.  Sigh...if only my dreams would come true, haha.

[csmopar]

15 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

I'm not saying our coaching staff is great, but the bigger issue is a lack of talent, in my opinion.  Grigson is hurting the team more than Pagano.

 

And you can't run a no huddle for 60 mins and let your QB make all the calls. 

I'm gonna get blasted here, but Peyton did it for how many years? Yes, Luck isn't Peyton, but if Stafford can run it like he did yesterday, Luck can as well. Heck, just call in a couple play options to his helmet and let Luck chose. 

[csmopar]

8 minutes ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

My only response here is in regard to the 60 minute no huddle.  I think Pags is trying to prevent the D from getting burned out too quickly in the game.  We have literally no depth anymore, so if Luck doesn't get into a nice groove to start the game you've got a bunch of 3 and outs while burning 1 minute of Time of Possession.  I don't event want to think about how ugly the rest of the game would be.

 

I would like to see shorter passes to start the game using play action.  Once we get the short stuff going we

can actually start running it and keeping the LB's in.  Then, once Luck gets his mojo going we can go over the top.  Sigh...if only my dreams would come true, haha.

If i had to guess, yes that is what Pags is trying to do. But it's no different when 1:30 comes off and you didn't run a no huddle and you still went 3 and out.....repeatedly

[MB-ColtsFan]

I think the Eagles were averaging something like 16 left on the play clock between plays a few years ago?  At that rate (if we would run it that fast) a 3 and out would be about twice as fast, but I get what you're trying to say.  I just think it's not something we can do until we at least get Vontae and Butler back.  Even more so if Robinson is hurt.  No idea on his status??

[coltsfanatic24]

He does need to change his philosophy but he just doesn't have the talent to run a great defense. Grigson trading a 1st for Richardson and drafting Werner over Xavier Rhodes really set this franchise back 3 years. 

[21isSuperman]

2 hours ago, csmopar said:

I'm gonna get blasted here, but Peyton did it for how many years? Yes, Luck isn't Peyton, but if Stafford can run it like he did yesterday, Luck can as well. Heck, just call in a couple play options to his helmet and let Luck chose. 

You can run a lot of no huddle, but you still need to huddle a lot.  This isn't college where you can get by without huddling for most of a game.  I'd like to see Luck given more control at the line, and I think he is being given that as he was making audibles and calls yesterday, but we can't say give him full control and let the OC just be a figurehead.

[BOTT]

2 hours ago, csmopar said:

I'm gonna get blasted here, but Peyton did it for how many years? Yes, Luck isn't Peyton, but if Stafford can run it like he did yesterday, Luck can as well. Heck, just call in a couple play options to his helmet and let Luck chose. 

Luck was sacked twice during the few first series and those tend to be drive killers. Plus, after the Eagles debacle they might have been a bit conservative to try and keep Luck safe...and for good reason.

 

All in all, i think people are making way too much of the whole starting slow issue.

[GoColts8818]

Well he said today they will be a power running team until they run him out of town.  So I vote yes!

 

in all seriousness it scared me some today when I heard Chuck say this because the Colts have never been a power running team since he got here.  I think Chuck sometimes sees things as the way he wants them to be more than how they really are.

 

I also think this explains a lot of the slow starts on offense they come out wanting to run until they get so far behind and then they turn Andrew lose.  I'd like to see them come out and turn Andrew lose and then go to the run.  The run was much more effective later in the game yesterday after Luck hit a couple of deep big passes.  If they started this way I think we might see faster starts.

[BCoop]

8 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Well he said today they will be a power running team until they run him out of town.  So I vote yes!

 

in all seriousness it scared me some today when I heard Chuck say this because the Colts have never been a power running team since he got here.  I think Chuck sometimes sees things as the way he wants them to be more than how they really are.

 

I also think this explains a lot of the slow starts on offense they come out wanting to run until they get so far behind and then they turn Andrew lose.  I'd like to see them come out and turn Andrew lose and then go to the run.  The run was much more effective later in the game yesterday after Luck hit a couple of deep big passes.  If they started this way I think we might see faster starts.

 

 

This is exactly the inspiration for my OP. It seems Pagano is determined to start games by setting up the run because at some point in his career, he came to believe that was the only way to be successful as a football team. It doesn't work with these guys. You either want to try to establish the run or you want to avoid slow starts. It's an either/or with this team.

 

I can live with questionable decisions in games (save for last year's punt debacle), but I can't stand stubbornness when the obvious solution is right in front of you. This team does not have the horses to run the ball down ANY defense's throat. It will be successful running the ball once it forces the defense to account for our 3 play-making wide receivers. Until then, we'll continue to see 2-3 yard runs with 3 and out possessions early in games.

[HeSoColt]

I think so. With that said, Pagano has forgotten more about football than we all know combined.

 

I think the easy thing is, we need to change that philosophy, but I would imagine this is easier said than done. Speaking of power running team... we have not been a power running team in almost 20 years. We are not built to be a power running team, so my conventional wisdom is... forget the whole idea.

[krunk]

I don't see anything wrong with trying to establish the run early.   It's more like adjust the philosophy to the type of runs that fit the personnel we have.  I'd like to see more inside and outside zone cut back runs with Turbin/Ferguson.  Not sure what there plans are with Todman because I don't even recall them using him in the Lions game, but I believe he can do much of the same stuff as Ferguson.  Think we can still run the counter/power type stuff with Gore.  I don't remember how much if any Denzelle Good was pulled on Sunday, but I do know when he goes head up with a linebacker they go flying back. Maybe some more type of stuff like that.  We just need to find what it is we do best with the backs we have.  Also the other backs need to be more involved in the running game as a whole.

[throwing BBZ]

19 hours ago, SP_21 said:

It worked against the 49ers in '14. The 30+ games since... not so much

 

 Ya, SF lost their VG NT for the season the prior week against Seattle, Justin Smith was playing with one good arm, and it was Aldon Smiths 1st game back from suspension. They also had Zero passing game as Kap couldn`t hit a wide open 7 yd out.  The bandwagon was aroar as to what a day Link had at RG. He was the new 'Man'.  chuckle
  Ours guards are Pathetic beyond the space in front of them.
 A defensive coordinators DREAM.

[esmort]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

I don't see anything wrong with trying to establish the run early.   It's more like adjust the philosophy to the type of runs that fit the personnel we have.  I'd like to see more inside and outside zone cut back runs with Turbin/Ferguson.  Not sure what there plans are with Todman because I don't even recall them using him in the Lions game, but I believe he can do much of the same stuff as Ferguson.  Think we can still run the counter/power type stuff with Gore.  I don't remember how much if any Denzelle Good was pulled on Sunday, but I do know when he goes head up with a linebacker they go flying back. Maybe some more type of stuff like that.  We just need to find what it is we do best with the backs we have.  Also the other backs need to be more involved in the running game as a whole.

 

^^This.. The choice and/or the design of running plays is so frustrating. It boggles my mind why they keep trying to run the same crappy running plays repeatedly. 

[Mameluc]

On 12/9/2016 at 2:52 PM, 21isSuperman said:

I'm not saying our coaching staff is great, but the bigger issue is a lack of talent, in my opinion.  Grigson is hurting the team more than Pagano.

 

And you can't run a no huddle for 60 mins and let your QB make all the calls. 

So  because i wasnt sure where i stand on the whole Grigson sucks i decided to make a little table with his drafts. i removed som eo fthe guys that were late picks that obviously didnt made the team:

Dorsett	Djoun	Hnery	GEATHERS	Parry	Robinson	Good
	mewhort	Moncrief	Newsome	Jackson	Ulrick
Werner	thorton	Holmes	Hughes	Boyet	Williams	Cunningham
Luck	Fleener	Allen	Hilton	Chapman	Ballar	Brazil
Kelly	Tj Green	Clark	Ridgeway	Morrison	HAEG	bates

So, obviously, werner draft was a complete mess and set us behind a little bit. Having said that i just went to other teams 2013 draft and overall, it seems that draft sucked like  big time. I ithink sehawks were like some of the only teams that did good on that year.

 

But overall the drafts have not been that bad:

Luck, Allen, Hilton mewhort Moncrief along with dorsett,Kelly and Good are all starting or contributing heavily, those are a good amount of hits. And then Hnery, geathers, parry, TJ Green are also good contributing picks.

Jury out on haeg(which i think will be our RT) ridgeway and morrison.

 

But having around 12 good contributing picks on 4 drafts, i think thats good. I mean is not perfect but compare to others teams and its around the same AVG

 

A case can  be made of too much focus on offense and not on Defense, but is not like he just misses on draft.

[21isSuperman]

30 minutes ago, Mameluc said:

So  because i wasnt sure where i stand on the whole Grigson sucks i decided to make a little table with his drafts. i removed som eo fthe guys that were late picks that obviously didnt made the team:

Dorsett	Djoun	Hnery	GEATHERS	Parry	Robinson	Good
	mewhort	Moncrief	Newsome	Jackson	Ulrick
Werner	thorton	Holmes	Hughes	Boyet	Williams	Cunningham
Luck	Fleener	Allen	Hilton	Chapman	Ballar	Brazil
Kelly	Tj Green	Clark	Ridgeway	Morrison	HAEG	bates

So, obviously, werner draft was a complete mess and set us behind a little bit. Having said that i just went to other teams 2013 draft and overall, it seems that draft sucked like  big time. I ithink sehawks were like some of the only teams that did good on that year.

 

But overall the drafts have not been that bad:

Luck, Allen, Hilton mewhort Moncrief along with dorsett,Kelly and Good are all starting or contributing heavily, those are a good amount of hits. And then Hnery, geathers, parry, TJ Green are also good contributing picks.

Jury out on haeg(which i think will be our RT) ridgeway and morrison.

 

But having around 12 good contributing picks on 4 drafts, i think thats good. I mean is not perfect but compare to others teams and its around the same AVG

 

A case can  be made of too much focus on offense and not on Defense, but is not like he just misses on draft.

 

He's consistently missed on first round picks.  Luck was a given, so I don't take that pick into consideration.  But using a first round pick on Werner, trading a first rounder for Richardson, using a first rounder for Dorsett (not a bad pick, but not the best for our team).  Then he makes some really questionable free agents choices, like nearly the entire 2013 class, Gore (not bad, but old), Andre Johnson.  He hasn't built this team into a complete roster, despite having several years and lots of cap space.  You can't blame everything on him (I thought Herremans, Donald Thomas, Phil Costa would all be good signings), but he's just not getting the results we need to be a complete roster.

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but while many people were excited for Trent Richardson (including myself), doing some film study from his time in Cleveland would have shown that he doesn't have good vision as an RB.

 

 

I'm not claiming I knew this before we traded for him, but I also don't have the resources to do this kind of film study, nor was I the one making the trade.  But when you're trading a first rounder for a guy you have NFL film on, you really need to be sure about it.  When it came to Werner, not only did we take him ahead of a guy like Xavier Rhodes, but he didn't show any explosion at his Combine workouts.  They took a 4-3 DE who can't explode off the snap and asked him to play 3-4 OLB.  In terms of Dorsett, I like the talent.  I think Dorsett can make a good contribution.  But if you have an option of taking talent, or taking talent that fills a need, I think you take the latter.  How he decides to build the team is up to him, but I don't agree with how he's gone about it, and the state of the roster shows he hasn't done enough to make us contenders.  The defense is porous, the pass rushing talent isn't there, and it seems like we may just now be starting to assemble a good OL, 5 years into his term.

[krunk]

22 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

He's consistently missed on first round picks.  Luck was a given, so I don't take that pick into consideration.  But using a first round pick on Werner, trading a first rounder for Richardson, using a first rounder for Dorsett (not a bad pick, but not the best for our team).  Then he makes some really questionable free agents choices, like nearly the entire 2013 class, Gore (not bad, but old), Andre Johnson.  He hasn't built this team into a complete roster, despite having several years and lots of cap space.  You can't blame everything on him (I thought Herremans, Donald Thomas, Phil Costa would all be good signings), but he's just not getting the results we need to be a complete roster.

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but while many people were excited for Trent Richardson (including myself), doing some film study from his time in Cleveland would have shown that he doesn't have good vision as an RB.

 

 

I'm not claiming I knew this before we traded for him, but I also don't have the resources to do this kind of film study, nor was I the one making the trade.  But when you're trading a first rounder for a guy you have NFL film on, you really need to be sure about it.  When it came to Werner, not only did we take him ahead of a guy like Xavier Rhodes, but he didn't show any explosion at his Combine workouts.  They took a 4-3 DE who can't explode off the snap and asked him to play 3-4 OLB.  In terms of Dorsett, I like the talent.  I think Dorsett can make a good contribution.  But if you have an option of taking talent, or taking talent that fills a need, I think you take the latter.  How he decides to build the team is up to him, but I don't agree with how he's gone about it, and the state of the roster shows he hasn't done enough to make us contenders.  The defense is porous, the pass rushing talent isn't there, and it seems like we may just now be starting to assemble a good OL, 5 years into his term.

 

Tell me what Bill Polians Roster looked like in year 5?

 

 

 

No I'll do it for you:  Not Exactly a Roster Full of All Stars. Especially on Defense.  Best player on that entire defense was Freeney and he was a rookie.  Maybe Mike Peterson.  We had worse talent than this 2016 Colts team.  There wasn't a whole bunch of talent on that team other than on the offense. About how it is now give or take a few pieces.

 

 

Quarterbacks  7 Brock Huard 18 Peyton Manning Running backs 20 Autry Denson 36 Jim Finn FB 32 Edgerrin James 23 James Mungro 42 Detron Smith FB 30 Shyrone Stith 35 Ricky Williams Wide receivers 84 Drew Haddad 88 Marvin Harrison 83 Qadry Ismail 86 Troy Walters 87 Reggie Wayne

Tight ends 80 Joe Dean Davenport 81 Marcus Pollard 85 Mike Roberg 85 Jermaine Wiggins Offensive linemen 64 Rick DeMulling G 71 Ryan Diem G 78 Tarik Glenn T 74 Waverly Jackson G/T 73 Adam Meadows T 61 Rob Murphy G/C 69 Pete Pierson T 63 Jeff Saturday C

Defensive linemen 92 Chad Bratzke DE 79 Raheem Brock DE 97 James Cannida DT 93 Dwight Freeney DE 68 Josh Mallard DE 91 Chukie Nwokorie DE 95 David Pugh DT 99 Brad Scioli DT 75 Larry Tripplett DT 96 Josh Williams DT Linebackers 94 Rob Morris MLB 52 Mike Peterson OLB 98 Sam Sword OLB 52 Donnell Thompson MLB 50 David Thornton OLB 53 Marcus Washington OLB

Defensive backs 28 Idrees Bashir FS 41 Cory Bird SS 31 Clifton Crosby CB 34 Jason Doering FS/SS 26 David Gibson SS 25 Nick Harper CB 21 Walt Harris CB 29 Joseph Jefferson CB 40 Brian Leigeb S 27 David Macklin CB 37 Eric Vance S 20 Joe Walker S Special teams 17 Hunter Smith P 48 Justin Snow LS 13 Mike Vanderjagt K Rookies in italics

[aaron11]

On 9/12/2016 at 3:48 PM, runthepost said:

Until we play New England Pittsburgh or the jets

the patriots and steelers have had more talent than us though

 

not sure why you mentioned the jets, we have lost one close game to them under pagano

[krunk]

30 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

He's consistently missed on first round picks.  Luck was a given, so I don't take that pick into consideration.  But using a first round pick on Werner, trading a first rounder for Richardson, using a first rounder for Dorsett (not a bad pick, but not the best for our team).  Then he makes some really questionable free agents choices, like nearly the entire 2013 class, Gore (not bad, but old), Andre Johnson.  He hasn't built this team into a complete roster, despite having several years and lots of cap space.  You can't blame everything on him (I thought Herremans, Donald Thomas, Phil Costa would all be good signings), but he's just not getting the results we need to be a complete roster.

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but while many people were excited for Trent Richardson (including myself), doing some film study from his time in Cleveland would have shown that he doesn't have good vision as an RB.

 

 

I'm not claiming I knew this before we traded for him, but I also don't have the resources to do this kind of film study, nor was I the one making the trade.  But when you're trading a first rounder for a guy you have NFL film on, you really need to be sure about it.  When it came to Werner, not only did we take him ahead of a guy like Xavier Rhodes, but he didn't show any explosion at his Combine workouts.  They took a 4-3 DE who can't explode off the snap and asked him to play 3-4 OLB.  In terms of Dorsett, I like the talent.  I think Dorsett can make a good contribution.  But if you have an option of taking talent, or taking talent that fills a need, I think you take the latter.  How he decides to build the team is up to him, but I don't agree with how he's gone about it, and the state of the roster shows he hasn't done enough to make us contenders.  The defense is porous, the pass rushing talent isn't there, and it seems like we may just now be starting to assemble a good OL, 5 years into his term.

Would you like to trade secondaries with the 2002 Bill Polian Colts?  I'm sure your answer is no

 

 

Defensive backs

• 28 Idrees Bashir FS
• 41 Cory Bird SS
• 31 Clifton Crosby CB
• 34 Jason Doering FS/SS
• 26 David Gibson SS
• 25 Nick Harper CB
• 21 Walt Harris CB
• 29 Joseph Jefferson CB
• 40 Brian Leigeb S
• 27 David Macklin CB
• 37 Eric Vance S
• 20 Joe Walker S

[krunk]

27 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

He's consistently missed on first round picks.  Luck was a given, so I don't take that pick into consideration.  But using a first round pick on Werner, trading a first rounder for Richardson, using a first rounder for Dorsett (not a bad pick, but not the best for our team).  Then he makes some really questionable free agents choices, like nearly the entire 2013 class, Gore (not bad, but old), Andre Johnson.  He hasn't built this team into a complete roster, despite having several years and lots of cap space.  You can't blame everything on him (I thought Herremans, Donald Thomas, Phil Costa would all be good signings), but he's just not getting the results we need to be a complete roster.

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but while many people were excited for Trent Richardson (including myself), doing some film study from his time in Cleveland would have shown that he doesn't have good vision as an RB.

 

 

I'm not claiming I knew this before we traded for him, but I also don't have the resources to do this kind of film study, nor was I the one making the trade.  But when you're trading a first rounder for a guy you have NFL film on, you really need to be sure about it.  When it came to Werner, not only did we take him ahead of a guy like Xavier Rhodes, but he didn't show any explosion at his Combine workouts.  They took a 4-3 DE who can't explode off the snap and asked him to play 3-4 OLB.  In terms of Dorsett, I like the talent.  I think Dorsett can make a good contribution.  But if you have an option of taking talent, or taking talent that fills a need, I think you take the latter.  How he decides to build the team is up to him, but I don't agree with how he's gone about it, and the state of the roster shows he hasn't done enough to make us contenders.  The defense is porous, the pass rushing talent isn't there, and it seems like we may just now be starting to assemble a good OL, 5 years into his term.

 

This is not better than the receivers we have on Grigsons Roster.  You want to know why?  Because Reggie was a rookie that year.  He didn't even contribute much.  I frankly thought he was going to be a bust.  All we really had was Marvin Harrison.  Everybody else was so so to garbage.

 

 

2002 Bill Polian Colts

Wide receivers

• 84 Drew Haddad
• 88 Marvin Harrison
• 83 Qadry Ismail
• 86 Troy Walters
• 87 Reggie Wayne

 

 

[krunk]

32 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

He's consistently missed on first round picks.  Luck was a given, so I don't take that pick into consideration.  But using a first round pick on Werner, trading a first rounder for Richardson, using a first rounder for Dorsett (not a bad pick, but not the best for our team).  Then he makes some really questionable free agents choices, like nearly the entire 2013 class, Gore (not bad, but old), Andre Johnson.  He hasn't built this team into a complete roster, despite having several years and lots of cap space.  You can't blame everything on him (I thought Herremans, Donald Thomas, Phil Costa would all be good signings), but he's just not getting the results we need to be a complete roster.

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but while many people were excited for Trent Richardson (including myself), doing some film study from his time in Cleveland would have shown that he doesn't have good vision as an RB.

 

 

I'm not claiming I knew this before we traded for him, but I also don't have the resources to do this kind of film study, nor was I the one making the trade.  But when you're trading a first rounder for a guy you have NFL film on, you really need to be sure about it.  When it came to Werner, not only did we take him ahead of a guy like Xavier Rhodes, but he didn't show any explosion at his Combine workouts.  They took a 4-3 DE who can't explode off the snap and asked him to play 3-4 OLB.  In terms of Dorsett, I like the talent.  I think Dorsett can make a good contribution.  But if you have an option of taking talent, or taking talent that fills a need, I think you take the latter.  How he decides to build the team is up to him, but I don't agree with how he's gone about it, and the state of the roster shows he hasn't done enough to make us contenders.  The defense is porous, the pass rushing talent isn't there, and it seems like we may just now be starting to assemble a good OL, 5 years into his term.

 

 

What about the 2002 Bill Polian Colts D line versus the 2016 Ryan Grigson D Line assuming full health?

 

Where's the Elite Players in this bunch?  

 

Dwight Freeney is all you can come up with

 

Would you take this group over Arthur Jones, Henry Anderson, Hassan Ridgeway, Kendall Langford, David Parry,  Zach Kerr?

 

I know your answer is going to be NO!

 

Defensive linemen

• 92 Chad Bratzke DE
• 79 Raheem Brock DE
• 97 James Cannida DT
• 93 Dwight Freeney DE
• 68 Josh Mallard DE
• 91 Chukie Nwokorie DE
• 95 David Pugh DT
• 99 Brad Scioli DT
• 75 Larry Tripplett DT
• 96 Josh Williams DT

[aaron11]

3 minutes ago, krunk said:

 

 

What about the 2002 Bill Polian Colts D line versus the 2016 Ryan Grigson D Line assuming full health?

 

Where's the Elite Players in this bunch?  

 

Dwight Freeney is all you can come up with

 

Would you take this group over Arthur Jones, Henry Anderson, Hassan Ridgeway, Kendall Langford, David Parry,  Zach Kerr?

 

I know your answer is going to be NO!

 

Defensive linemen

• 92 Chad Bratzke DE
• 79 Raheem Brock DE
• 97 James Cannida DT
• 93 Dwight Freeney DE
• 68 Josh Mallard DE
• 91 Chukie Nwokorie DE
• 95 David Pugh DT
• 99 Brad Scioli DT
• 75 Larry Tripplett DT
• 96 Josh Williams DT

i would consider it but only because of freeney .  losing what we have now would be no big loss except for anderson. 

 

both teams are mostly full of just another guy

[krunk]

3 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

i would consider it but only because of freeney .  losing what we have now would be no big loss except for anderson. 

 

both teams are mostly full of just another guy

Point is why do we act like Grigson is so much more of a bum than Polian was?  Both their year 5 rosters look the same.  Grigson better in some areas.

[krunk]

The problem is we've gotten so used to winning and dominating that we don't even remember the experience and lack of talent those early Bill Polian Colts had before we got to the "Golden Era" as Irsay calls it.  So we think that everything related to Grigson is a Grigson phenomenon.  Irsay remembers that's why he's starting to talk about the Golden Era again because he sees that same cycle coming back around in year 5 of this administration.  He knows when everything started to click for Polian.  Right after year 5.

[Malakai432]

The thing is if you come out with this highflying offense, scoring quickly or getting stopped quickly your putting an injured/bad defense on the field very quickly that other teams can wear out.  Then, before you know it's the beginning of the second quarter and they're already exhausted for the half.  If you went with a high tempo, you better score a lot of touchdowns, this team is known to have problems in the red zone so we'll see if they continue to improve in that area. 

 

I would prefer to them set the tempo quick(er) for sure and not so vanilla but I don't know if I'd want to see this team score, or not score at such a quick pace that D sees a lot of action and is done @ halftime.  Also the more the D sees the field, the more injuries that can occur. 

 

They need to find a very good balance, and of course not look so bland when they run the ball.  When my buddy and I can sit around and peg 80% of the time if it's going to be a run play, that's pretty sad considering any NFL caliber D will know a vanilla run when they see it.  Though the OL played decent overall and Gore averaged over 4 ypc, the Colts most likely aren't going to gash anyone with incredible runs with Gore and Turbin.  Ferguson may have the explosiveness but I don't think this is a solid run blocking OL as is.  This team kind of has to establish a balance unless they think they can score 40 every game with a high flying hurry up, that ANY team can match because the D is so decimated and just not that good.

 

It's a long rant for me, lol but in the end I don't think this team has the ability to be a power run team, nor has the D to be this incredibly high flying hurry up O.  It seems to be they need to find a balance that just isn't plain vanilla to start games like we see multiple times IMO.

[krunk]

I CLEARLY remember in 2002 or maybe 2003 us going to the playoffs getting SMOKED by the Jets 41-0 because our talent was so garbage we couldn't compete. Polian had been with us 5 or more years at that point.  Other than the offense we had a Crap Roster.  Matter of fact some of those offensive pieces needed an upgrade too.  Like that scrub Quadry Ismail who reminds me a lot of Donnie Avery in some ways.  Both of them were soft and known for their speed. .