Is it time for Pagano to change his philosphy?

[krunk]

I mean we talk about Greg Toler, but I clearly remember how bad David Macklin was!  The guy sucked...

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, krunk said:

I CLEARLY remember in 2002 or maybe 2003 us going to the playoffs getting SMOKED by the Jets 41-0 because our talent was so garbage we couldn't compete. Polian had been with us 5 or more years at that point.

It was the 2002 Season, also we went 6-10 in 2001 before it got rosey in 2003. 2003-2009 we were dominant but it took Peyton that long to win his first Playoff game = 2003, 1998-2002 we had no Playoff wins with Peyton. The problem with most of today's fans they have no patience when they are used to winning 11 or 12 games every season and have won a SB. We have already won 11 games 3 years in a row with Luck on a rebuild even and made a Final 4, then we have one 8-8 season and most Colts fans want Grigson and Pagano out and say they suck.

[21isSuperman]

49 minutes ago, krunk said:

 

Tell me what Bill Polians Roster looked like in year 5?

 

 

 

No I'll do it for you:  Not Exactly a Roster Full of All Stars. Especially on Defense.  Best player on that entire defense was Freeney and he was a rookie.  Maybe Mike Peterson.  We had worse talent than this 2016 Colts team.  There wasn't a whole bunch of talent on that team other than on the offense. About how it is now give or take a few pieces.

 

 

Quarterbacks  7 Brock Huard 18 Peyton Manning Running backs 20 Autry Denson 36 Jim Finn FB 32 Edgerrin James 23 James Mungro 42 Detron Smith FB 30 Shyrone Stith 35 Ricky Williams Wide receivers 84 Drew Haddad 88 Marvin Harrison 83 Qadry Ismail 86 Troy Walters 87 Reggie Wayne

Tight ends 80 Joe Dean Davenport 81 Marcus Pollard 85 Mike Roberg 85 Jermaine Wiggins Offensive linemen 64 Rick DeMulling G 71 Ryan Diem G 78 Tarik Glenn T 74 Waverly Jackson G/T 73 Adam Meadows T 61 Rob Murphy G/C 69 Pete Pierson T 63 Jeff Saturday C

Defensive linemen 92 Chad Bratzke DE 79 Raheem Brock DE 97 James Cannida DT 93 Dwight Freeney DE 68 Josh Mallard DE 91 Chukie Nwokorie DE 95 David Pugh DT 99 Brad Scioli DT 75 Larry Tripplett DT 96 Josh Williams DT Linebackers 94 Rob Morris MLB 52 Mike Peterson OLB 98 Sam Sword OLB 52 Donnell Thompson MLB 50 David Thornton OLB 53 Marcus Washington OLB

Defensive backs 28 Idrees Bashir FS 41 Cory Bird SS 31 Clifton Crosby CB 34 Jason Doering FS/SS 26 David Gibson SS 25 Nick Harper CB 21 Walt Harris CB 29 Joseph Jefferson CB 40 Brian Leigeb S 27 David Macklin CB 37 Eric Vance S 20 Joe Walker S Special teams 17 Hunter Smith P 48 Justin Snow LS 13 Mike Vanderjagt K Rookies in italics

Before coming to Indy, Polian had built the Bills and Panthers into Super Bowl contenders.  I think he's earned a bit more leeway than Grigson.  With that said, Polian didn't build a team that could consistently win in the playoffs, so I'm not here to say Polian is amazing and Grigson should be more like him.  I think the Colts during Peyton's time underachieved with just one Super Bowl.  But that's a completely separate discussion.  All I'm saying is Grigson hasn't done a good job of building a complete team.  What you think of Polian is another story.

[krunk]

5 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

Before coming to Indy, Polian had built the Bills and Panthers into Super Bowl contenders.  I think he's earned a bit more leeway than Grigson.  With that said, Polian didn't build a team that could consistently win in the playoffs, so I'm not here to say Polian is amazing and Grigson should be more like him.  I think the Colts during Peyton's time underachieved with just one Super Bowl.  But that's a completely separate discussion.  All I'm saying is Grigson hasn't done a good job of building a complete team.  What you think of Polian is another story.

No.  You're talking about all of what Polian did in the past, but yet he built a roster honestly that was worse than Grigson with all of his experience?   You act like people just walk into these things just knocking it out of the ball park with no mistakes, blunders even. Wanting to run the guy out of town when honestly he's done a better job than a guy that had way more experience and acumen than him.    5 years is not a lot of time.

[21isSuperman]

24 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It was the 2002 Season, also we went 6-10 in 2001 before it got rosey in 2003. 2003-2009 we were dominant but it took Peyton that long to win his first Playoff game = 2003, 1998-2002 we had no Playoff wins with Peyton. The problem with most of today's fans they have no patience when they are used to winning 11 or 12 games every season and have won a SB. We have already won 11 games 3 years in a row with Luck on a rebuild even and made a Final 4, then we have one 8-8 season and most Colts fans want Grigson and Pagano out and say they suck.

5 years and plenty of cap space is a lot to work with.  Schneider took the Seahawks to the Super Bowl within 5 years of being hired as GM.  Elway was hired in 2011 and took the team to 2 Super Bowls, despite inheriting Tim Tebow as his starting QB.  Reggie McKenzie was hired the same year as Grigson and you could make the case he was in a worse situation because of the Raiders' cap situation and not being gifted Andrew Luck, but one could make the case that the Raiders have a more complete roster (I'm not saying they do or don't, but you could have the discussion).  I'm not calling for Pagano to be fired (yet), but I think Grigson does need to go and should have been gone last year.  How he managed to convince Irsay to not fire him with a year left on his contract, but also give him an extension, is beyond me.  With that said, it's all a moot point since Grigson has an extension and I don't see Irsay firing him, barring something catastrophic, like a 4-12 season.

 

4 minutes ago, krunk said:

No.  You're talking about all of what Polian did in the past, but yet he built a roster honestly that was worse than Grigson with all of his experience?   You act like people just walk into these things just knocking it out of the ball park with no mistakes, blunders even. Wanting to run the guy out of town when honestly he's done a better job than a guy that had way more experience and acumen than him.    5 years is not a lot of time.

I didn't even mention Polian in my post.....

[krunk]

Just now, 21isSuperman said:

5 years and plenty of cap space is a lot to work with.  Schneider took the Seahawks to the Super Bowl within 5 years of being hired as GM.  Elway was hired in 2011 and took the team to 2 Super Bowls, despite inheriting Tim Tebow as his starting QB.  Reggie McKenzie was hired the same year as Grigson and you could make the case he was in a worse situation because of the Raiders' cap situation and not being gifted Andrew Luck, but one could make the case that the Raiders have a more complete roster (I'm not saying they do or don't, but you could have the discussion).  I'm not calling for Pagano to be fired (yet), but I think Grigson does need to go and should have been gone last year.  How he managed to convince Irsay to not fire him with a year left on his contract, but also give him an extension, is beyond me.  With that said, it's all a moot point since Grigson has an extension and I don't see Irsay firing him, barring something catastrophic, like a 4-12 season.

 

I didn't even mention Polian in my post.....

Yes you did.  You stated what his accomplishments were before he took the job.

[krunk]

1 minute ago, 21isSuperman said:

5 years and plenty of cap space is a lot to work with.  Schneider took the Seahawks to the Super Bowl within 5 years of being hired as GM.  Elway was hired in 2011 and took the team to 2 Super Bowls, despite inheriting Tim Tebow as his starting QB.  Reggie McKenzie was hired the same year as Grigson and you could make the case he was in a worse situation because of the Raiders' cap situation and not being gifted Andrew Luck, but one could make the case that the Raiders have a more complete roster (I'm not saying they do or don't, but you could have the discussion).  I'm not calling for Pagano to be fired (yet), but I think Grigson does need to go and should have been gone last year.  How he managed to convince Irsay to not fire him with a year left on his contract, but also give him an extension, is beyond me.  With that said, it's all a moot point since Grigson has an extension and I don't see Irsay firing him, barring something catastrophic, like a 4-12 season.

 

I didn't even mention Polian in my post.....

Not everybodies experience is going to work the same way. 

[BOTT]

54 minutes ago, krunk said:

Point is why do we act like Grigson is so much more of a bum than Polian was?  Both their year 5 rosters look the same.  Grigson better in some areas.

Because Polian had a track record proving that he could get it done.  Grigson, obviously, does not.

[CoachLite]

When all the fans have gone away, maybe Grigson and Pagano will be fired. Just wait a little longer.

[krunk]

9 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

5 years and plenty of cap space is a lot to work with.  Schneider took the Seahawks to the Super Bowl within 5 years of being hired as GM.  Elway was hired in 2011 and took the team to 2 Super Bowls, despite inheriting Tim Tebow as his starting QB.  Reggie McKenzie was hired the same year as Grigson and you could make the case he was in a worse situation because of the Raiders' cap situation and not being gifted Andrew Luck, but one could make the case that the Raiders have a more complete roster (I'm not saying they do or don't, but you could have the discussion).  I'm not calling for Pagano to be fired (yet), but I think Grigson does need to go and should have been gone last year.  How he managed to convince Irsay to not fire him with a year left on his contract, but also give him an extension, is beyond me.  With that said, it's all a moot point since Grigson has an extension and I don't see Irsay firing him, barring something catastrophic, like a 4-12 season.

 

I didn't even mention Polian in my post.....

Did Elway inherit a rookie Quarterback?  No he inherited a very experienced Veteran QB who had already been to multiple playoffs and a Super Bowl. Not hard to get back with that kind of thing.

[krunk]

9 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

5 years and plenty of cap space is a lot to work with.  Schneider took the Seahawks to the Super Bowl within 5 years of being hired as GM.  Elway was hired in 2011 and took the team to 2 Super Bowls, despite inheriting Tim Tebow as his starting QB.  Reggie McKenzie was hired the same year as Grigson and you could make the case he was in a worse situation because of the Raiders' cap situation and not being gifted Andrew Luck, but one could make the case that the Raiders have a more complete roster (I'm not saying they do or don't, but you could have the discussion).  I'm not calling for Pagano to be fired (yet), but I think Grigson does need to go and should have been gone last year.  How he managed to convince Irsay to not fire him with a year left on his contract, but also give him an extension, is beyond me.  With that said, it's all a moot point since Grigson has an extension and I don't see Irsay firing him, barring something catastrophic, like a 4-12 season.

 

I didn't even mention Polian in my post.....

Tebow getting to the playoffs was a pure act of God.  Even Elway understood they weren't going anywhere else with that dude ever again.  So did the rest of the league.

[krunk]

6 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Because Polian had a track record proving that he could get it done.  Grigson, obviously, does not.

A track record of losing super bowls and playoffs.    Grigson has proven he can do a better job than Polian with this team.  Doesn't mean anything huh?  Track Record only means so much.  Irsay cared nothing for his track record when he fired him.

[BOTT]

14 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, krunk said:

A track record of losing super bowls and playoffs.    Grigson has proven he can do a better job than Polian.  Doesn't mean anything huh?

Really?

[krunk]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

Really?

Yes really in the first 5 years for sure.  There's nothing else to go off of.

[krunk]

They try to take his credit away for selecting Luck, but look at what the Browns just did.  Passed over Carson Wentz for RG3 for crying out loud.   And they are going to take the full brunt of that decision.   Why shouldn't Grigson get credit for not selecting RG3 when his time to decide came around?  Damn sure would have been ran out of town if he took RG3 over Luck and deservingly so.

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, krunk said:

Yes really in the first 5 years for sure.  There's nothing else to go off of.

I was referencing your first sentence.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, krunk said:

They try to take his credit away for selecting Luck, but look at what the Browns just did.  Passed over Carson Wentz for RG3 for crying out loud.   And they are going to take the full brunt of that decision.   Why shouldn't Grigson get credit for not selecting RG3 when his time to decide came around?  Damn sure would have been ran out of town if he took RG3 over Luck and deservingly so.

I agree. A lot of the media wanted us and thought we should've took RG3. Grigson wasn't suckered into that garbage. What would've Polian been in Indy without Peyton? I can tell you - 0 Championships. Guess what he didn't get suckered either and chose Peyton over Leaf. There were a bunch of guys in the media that analyze the Draft and a lot of them said Leaf would be a better pro than Peyton. Leaf did have a stronger arm.

[krunk]

2 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I was referencing your first sentence.  

I get where you're coming from on that BOTT and I acknowledge what he accomplished. I was just flipping the logic around a bit.

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree. A lot of the media wanted us and thought we should've took RG3. Grigson wasn't suckered into that garbage. What would've Polian been in Indy without Peyton? I can tell you - 0 Championships. Guess what he didn't get suckered either and chose Peyton over Leaf. There were a bunch of guys in the media that analyze the Draft and a lot of them said Leaf would be a better pro than Peyton. Leaf did have a stronger arm.

both decisions were easy.

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, BOTT said:

both decisions were easy.

To us yes, but you never know about how some of these GM's can get suckered.

[BOTT]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

To us yes, but you never know about how some of these GM's can get suckered.

Polian actually preferred RG3.  If anyone thought Jimbo made a mistake giving Polian the axe.......

[21isSuperman]

43 minutes ago, krunk said:

Yes you did.  You stated what his accomplishments were before he took the job.

I only did that because you brought up Polian in the first place.  I didn't say anything about Polian in my original post.  You're the one who brought him up.

 

35 minutes ago, krunk said:

Did Elway inherit a rookie Quarterback?  No he inherited a very experienced Veteran QB who had already been to multiple playoffs and a Super Bowl. Not hard to get back with that kind of thing.

Elway inherited Tim Tebow.  He signed Peyton Manning as a free agent, and having success signing free agents is an important factor in building a strong team.  Elway's free agent signings include DeMarcus Ware, Aqib Talib, TJ Ward, Emmanuel Sanders, and Peyton Manning.  All of those guys made big contributions to the success the Broncos have had in the last few years.  He didn't inherit Peyton, as Peyton could have signed with any of several teams.

 

33 minutes ago, krunk said:

Tebow getting to the playoffs was a pure act of God.  Even Elway understood they weren't going anywhere else with that dude ever again.  So did the rest of the league.

Ok.....and?  If anything, that proves my point even more.  Elway understood you can't win with Tebow, so he managed to sign Peyton Manning and got rid of Tebow, making his roster better.  Grigson seems to think you can win with guys like Bjoern Werner, Trent Richardson, and Jon Harrison on your roster.

[colts8718]

53 minutes ago, krunk said:

A track record of losing super bowls and playoffs.    Grigson has proven he can do a better job than Polian with this team.  Doesn't mean anything huh?  Track Record only means so much.  Irsay cared nothing for his track record when he fired him.

At least he got them to a Superbowl not going to happen on Grigsons watch 

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, colts8718 said:

At least he got them to a Superbowl not going to happen on Grigsons watch 

He could turn it around....when it comes to drafting anyway. I just wouldnt have gambled on him 2nd time.  I still think he's clueless in free agency.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, colts8718 said:

At least he got them to a Superbowl not going to happen on Grigsons watch 

We were 1 game away from a SB in 2014. We got cheated and it was proven too. OK we would've lost anyway I get that but losing to the Pats in NE is why we didn't go to the SB otherwise we would've already have been there actually.

[colts8718]

19 minutes ago, BOTT said:

He could turn it around....when it comes to drafting anyway. I just wouldnt have gambled on him 2nd time.  I still think he's clueless in free agency.

That Trent Richardson trade did it for me 

[BOTT]

5 minutes ago, colts8718 said:

That Trent Richardson trade did it for me 

I flipped a lid when that was announced lol

[runthepost]

2 hours ago, aaron11 said:

the patriots and steelers have had more talent than us though

 

not sure why you mentioned the jets, we have lost one close game to them under pagano

0-2 vs the Jets in the Luck era

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

They try to take his credit away for selecting Luck, but look at what the Browns just did.  Passed over Carson Wentz for RG3 for crying out loud.   And they are going to take the full brunt of that decision.   Why shouldn't Grigson get credit for not selecting RG3 when his time to decide came around?  Damn sure would have been ran out of town if he took RG3 over Luck and deservingly so.

 

 DA Browns have a talent for finding ways to lose . RG3 once again has proved he was all hype I said it back when he was drafted & I'll say it again the ROY was his only accomplishment & he really did'nt deserve it Alfred Morris did he was given the starting job because of hype not brains or real talent the dude needs to learn to slide IMO hes fragile . Grigson chose wisely that is why we have Luck . Just like Polian before him taking Manning over Leaf the makings of a great team starting with the QB hopefully we can surround Luck with a supporting cast that can accomplish a decade of excellence IMO it begins now .

 

 

[colts8718]

16 hours ago, BOTT said:

I flipped a lid when that was announced lol

I no Polian was not perfect but he would have never gone there

[bluephantom87]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 0:42 AM, GoColts8818 said:

Well he said today they will be a power running team until they run him out of town.  So I vote yes!

 

in all seriousness it scared me some today when I heard Chuck say this because the Colts have never been a power running team since he got here.  I think Chuck sometimes sees things as the way he wants them to be more than how they really are.

 

I also think this explains a lot of the slow starts on offense they come out wanting to run until they get so far behind and then they turn Andrew lose.  I'd like to see them come out and turn Andrew lose and then go to the run.  The run was much more effective later in the game yesterday after Luck hit a couple of deep big passes.  If they started this way I think we might see faster starts.

Lol. Chuck as hc is the master of "tough guy" TALK but LACKS the OVERALL mindset to become an above avg coach. Since he arrived Chuck has pounded his chest on the we will POUND the ball on offense, be PHYSICAL and eat clock. On defense we will be AGGRESSIVE while playing with a nasty "edge" to become a nightmare for opposing teams qbs. "Let's hunt!" "Build the MONSTER!" "Guys will come from EVERYWHERE!" It is NOW year FIVE under Chuck and I have YET to see ANY of the above. What I see instead is a lackluster, passive scheme ran defense that has DECLINED on a yearly basis. Fundamentals like BASIC tackling skills and toughness are void. Yes Grigs is responsible also BUT like Krunk said there is some talent on this defense that is NO worse than what HOF Polian yielded in the SAME time frame. 

 

The ONLY difference is that you had a hc in Dungy that REALIZED that his PASSING game with Manning was the KEY to victory. This came from a man whose offense lacked a passing game for YEARS in Tampa. Dungy's team was BASED on pounding the ball with big Alstott and speedy Dunn while playing strong defense BUT he was able to ADAPT as hc in Indy. Chuck's blatant REFUSAL to acknowledge the team's offensive strength will CONTINUE to hamper this team with the SAME slow starts seen in the last few years ALONG with the VANILLA based defensive scheme. I really wonder what Chuck's record would be without having Luck to bail the team out with comeback victories after being relegated to handing off the ball to start games or Bruce's credited 9 wins.

 

Regardless WHO'S on the field the hc must MAXIMIZE the talent at hand in order to put the team into the BEST possible scenario to win games. Calling a timeout WITHOUT using some time allows  the GREAT Caldwell to preserve his own. How about the decision to go PREVENT in the last 37 seconds allowing the Lions to march downfield nearly 60yds in 29 seconds to kick the game winner. Nice guy but like Caldwell before him will soon be exposed as an subpar hc hiding behind a franchise qb to compile wins while feasting on the PREVIOUS pitiful division known as the afc south.

[Coffeedrinker]

Here is the difference between Polian and Grigson.

 

Polian got Jeff Satruday as an UDFA

 

Grigson had to spend a first round pick to get his Jeff Saturday.

 

In all seriousness I think a lot of people do not understand the role of a GM.  The GM is supposed to find guys that fit the HCs criteria for that position.  He and the HC are supposed to sit down and say for CB, for example, the most important trait is speed, the 2nd most is, agility, etc.  Then they are supposed to weight each of those categories and then the GM needs to train his scouts and explain what a 100 speed is, 90, 80, etc. and how to grade players, etc.  Polian wrote the book on that (literally, it was the size of a phone book from a major city).  Grigson is still developing his.  One hinderance for Grigson though is he using the scouting service that the bulk of the NFL uses, so he does not the opportunity to train them on and fine tune their scouting ability and reports.  The 2nd hinderance is that I don't think Pagano know what makes a good player for several positions for the type of offense and defense he wants to run.

 

The one thing I don't like about Grigson and by extension the traits that are important from the coach, is he seems to put a premium on measurables and less attention to intangibles.  And I think that is because Pags thinks that if someone can run and hit, he can teach them the nuisances of playing in the NFL.  Or maybe that is what the friction was about last year, maybe Grigs didn't get Pags and the other coaches input on what type of players they wanted, maybe he decided what type of players the Colts wanted and forced Pags to use what he gave them. 

 

I don't know.  I do know that Grigs is not a great or even good GM at the moment but I do think he is moving on the right direction.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 9/12/2016 at 1:52 PM, 21isSuperman said:

And you can't run a no huddle for 60 mins and let your QB make all the calls. 

 

Our last QB did that, and it seemed to work out fine, we went 12-4 every season pretty much like clockwork. I think Luck is equipped and ready to do the same, just gotta give him the go-ahead to do so.

[21isSuperman]

36 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Our last QB did that, and it seemed to work out fine, we went 12-4 every season pretty much like clockwork. I think Luck is equipped and ready to do the same, just gotta give him the go-ahead to do so.

I do think we should run a bit more no huddle, but I don't think it can be the main offense we run.  This isn't college.  You can't run no huddle for 90% of your offensive possession time, especially if you're playing on the road.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

21 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

I do think we should run a bit more no huddle, but I don't think it can be the main offense we run.  This isn't college.  You can't run no huddle for 90% of your offensive possession time, especially if you're playing on the road.

 

I think we should start off no-huddle to dictate the flow of the game, and keep the defense guessing. It also seems like Luck finds his rhythm much quicker when they go uptempo. It's definitely not sustainable to do it for an entire game, as you do want to control the clock at certain spots, especially with a lead, and also give your defense ample time to rest. I just feel like they go out there with the same 15-20 scripted plays to start the game, and it always seems to result in several punts.

[theanarchist]

On 9/13/2016 at 5:23 PM, krunk said:

I mean we talk about Greg Toler, but I clearly remember how bad David Macklin was!  The guy sucked...

Oh man, Maclin? No dispute but How about Tyrone Poole and Jeff Burris?

[krunk]

2 minutes ago, theanarchist said:

Oh man, Maclin? No dispute but How about Tyrone Poole and Jeff Burris?

Burris was bad to me.  Toler esque.  I don't remember Tyrone Poole as much with the Colts.

[theanarchist]

Just now, krunk said:

Burris was bad to me.  Toler esque.  I don't remember Tyrone Poole as much with the Colts.

Tyrone and Jeff were both on the same teams. Both loved the 9 yard cushion. I would get so mad at the TV in those days!

[krunk]

1 minute ago, theanarchist said:

Tyrone and Jeff were both on the same teams. Both loved the 9 yard cushion. I would get so mad at the TV in those days!

I started watching the Colts around 2001 and I think Tyrone Poole was gone at that point.  Jeff Burris was still here if I remember correctly.