Does Brady cheating remove him from G.O.A.T. conversation?

[coltsfeva]

IMO, it does. Plain and simple, he cheated and got caught. But even of that didn't happen, there are several reasons why he's not the G.O.A.T.:

 

1. - Bill Belicheck - Not Brady's fault but he has had that advantage and in the playoffs, great coaching can make the difference between a W and L. (If for instance, Peyton had Belicheck his whole career, would he have got an additional ring or two)?

 

2. - Not enough rings. - Otto Graham had 7  championship rings, Bart Starr had 5 and Sid Luckman had 4. Of course, there is Montana and Bradshaw in the Superbowl era.

 

3. - Great defenses - Again, not Brady's fault but if Peyton was criticized for being lucky to be on a team with a great defense, then Brady must bear the same scrutiny.

 

We all know how subjective this argument is and how, as fans can find it hard to be objective, but the problem Brady will have (legacy wise) is that he was caught and many will wonder how many rings were obtained by less than honorable means.

 

 

[backshoulderfade]

I wouldn't worry so much about the Pats if I were you.

[shakedownstreet]

No it doesn't. Mildly amusing it happens to a hated rival, but that's about it

 

 

[chad72]

No. He still had to execute the plays at a high level for several seasons in a row. Cheating does not change the fact how he can gun the ball into tight windows while Peyton couldn't (with Brady it is more likely an incompletion if the DB jumps, with Peyton it is more likely an INT). It does not change the fact that he could QB sneak and convert so many 4th & 1s or 3rd & 1s while Peyton hands it off to his RB to get stuffed and punt it away. It does not change the fact how accurate he is inside the numbers underneath. 

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

[Smonroe]

21 minutes ago, coltsfeva said:

IMO, it does. Plain and simple, he cheated and got caught. But even of that didn't happen, there are several reasons why he's not the G.O.A.T.:

 

1. - Bill Belicheck - Not Brady's fault but he has had that advantage and in the playoffs, great coaching can make the difference between a W and L. (If for instance, Peyton had Belicheck his whole career, would he have got an additional ring or two)?

 

2. - Not enough rings. - Otto Graham had 7  championship rings, Bart Starr had 5 and Sid Luckman had 4. Of course, there is Montana and Bradshaw in the Superbowl era.

 

3. - Great defenses - Again, not Brady's fault but if Peyton was criticized for being lucky to be on a team with a great defense, then Brady must bear the same scrutiny.

 

We all know how subjective this argument is and how, as fans can find it hard to be objective, but the problem Brady will have (legacy wise) is that he was caught and many will wonder how many rings were obtained by less than honorable means.

 

 

 

First of all, he's being punished mostly because he didn't turn over his phone.  So, he may have been cheating in a different way, but that's between him and his wife.  And Ben Affleck.

 

We all know that even if the balls were a tiny bit underinflated, it didn't make a difference in the games outcome.  Aaron Rodgers basically admitted he likes the balls overinflated.

 

There's no denying he's one of the GOATs, and it's really not fair to compare different eras. 

 

Backshoulderfade had the right answer.  I was too long winded.

[shakedownstreet]

2 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

but that's between him and his wife.  And Ben Affleck.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

I am just glad he is serving the suspension instead of getting out of it. He cheated and got caught and he didn't coorporate with an investigation. Yes they would've beat us regardless in the Championship Game because they were simply the better team but that has nothing to do with him cheating or the investigation that followed. Having said that I don't think he's the greatest ever anyway, I still think Joe Montana is for a lot of reasons. Peyton, Elway, and Unitas are on Tom's level as well and anyone can debate for any of those QB's being better than the other. I can come up with several reasons why Peyton is better than Tom but Pats fans can do the same defending Tom.

[RockThatBlue]

Absolutely it does in my opinion.

[cdgacoltsfan]

1 hour ago, Smonroe said:

 

First of all, he's being punished mostly because he didn't turn over his phone.  So, he may have been cheating in a different way, but that's between him and his wife.  And Ben Affleck.

 

We all know that even if the balls were a tiny bit underinflated, it didn't make a difference in the games outcome.  Aaron Rodgers basically admitted he likes the balls overinflated.

 

There's no denying he's one of the GOATs, and it's really not fair to compare different eras.

 

Backshoulderfade had the right answer.  I was too long winded.

Did his wife cheat on Tom with Ben or did Tom cheat on his wife with Ben?

[CroatianColtsFan21]

8 minutes ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

Did his wife cheat on Tom with Ben or did Tom cheat on his wife with Ben?

 

We can't realy know for sure, but we do know gisel is most hadsome out of those 3 men.

[Iancolts]

HC cheats And now there QB cheats.  They love Cheetos in NE so yeah take both of them out of the GOAT convo!!

[lollygagger8]

Brady 

[2006Coltsbestever]

I have been on a couple of different websites (ESPN being one, I wont mention the other) to just read comments regarding Brady's appeal. Patriots fans are pee'd off and talking all kinds of funny stuff LOL. I guess they support cheating and people who don't cooperate with investigations?? They love science though . I still tend to say he is one of the 5 best QB's ever = Montana, Unitas, Peyton, Elway, and Tom but it does make you wonder how long they have been getting away with deflating balls over all. Was watching First Take earlier and one of the guys brought up that the Patriots didn't fumble all season in 2014 and it was odd. He may have been exaggerating because I thought they had a few but I got his point. If I were a RB or WR I would love a little Football, makes it easier to hold and tuck in.

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, coltsfeva said:

IMO, it does. Plain and simple, he cheated and got caught. But even of that didn't happen, there are several reasons why he's not the G.O.A.T.:

 

1. - Bill Belicheck - Not Brady's fault but he has had that advantage and in the playoffs, great coaching can make the difference between a W and L. (If for instance, Peyton had Belicheck his whole career, would he have got an additional ring or two)?

 

2. - Not enough rings. - Otto Graham had 7  championship rings, Bart Starr had 5 and Sid Luckman had 4. Of course, there is Montana and Bradshaw in the Superbowl era.

 

3. - Great defenses - Again, not Brady's fault but if Peyton was criticized for being lucky to be on a team with a great defense, then Brady must bear the same scrutiny.

 

We all know how subjective this argument is and how, as fans can find it hard to be objective, but the problem Brady will have (legacy wise) is that he was caught and many will wonder how many rings were obtained by less than honorable means.

 

 

 

No.     

 

This wasn't a felony,  this was a misdemeanor.      This wasn't that big a deal,  but Brady and the NFL elevated it to a higher level to battle over who has power and to fight over image.

 

But as far as cheating impacting Brady's legacy?       No.

 

That's done on the field.     And what Brady has done on the field says GOAT.

 

Of course,  your mileage may vary.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

They actually had no fumbles at home all season in 2014 that much I do know. I looked it up. Strange considering the weather they play in.

[Colts_Fan12]

Ithe should but it won't happen 

[Valpo2004]

It's not going to to change the general public's view of him.  

[bababooey]

He is absolutely an all time great, but the greatest of all times don't cheat to win, or at least they don't get suspended for cheating.

[jskinnz]

5 hours ago, coltsfeva said:

IMO, it does. Plain and simple, he cheated and got caught. But even of that didn't happen, there are several reasons why he's not the G.O.A.T.:

 

1. - Bill Belicheck - Not Brady's fault but he has had that advantage and in the playoffs, great coaching can make the difference between a W and L. (If for instance, Peyton had Belicheck his whole career, would he have got an additional ring or two)?

 

2. - Not enough rings. - Otto Graham had 7  championship rings, Bart Starr had 5 and Sid Luckman had 4. Of course, there is Montana and Bradshaw in the Superbowl era.

 

3. - Great defenses - Again, not Brady's fault but if Peyton was criticized for being lucky to be on a team with a great defense, then Brady must bear the same scrutiny.

 

We all know how subjective this argument is and how, as fans can find it hard to be objective, but the problem Brady will have (legacy wise) is that he was caught and many will wonder how many rings were obtained by less than honorable means.

 

 

 

Not even close to impacting his status in the game.

[BOTT]

No

[LockeDown]

6 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am just glad he is serving the suspension instead of getting out of it. He cheated and got caught and he didn't coorporate with an investigation. Yes they would've beat us regardless in the Championship Game because they were simply the better team but that has nothing to do with him cheating or the investigation that followed. Having said that I don't think he's the greatest ever anyway, I still think Joe Montana is for a lot of reasons. Peyton, Elway, and Unitas are on Tom's level as well and anyone can debate for any of those QB's being better than the other. I can come up with several reasons why Peyton is better than Tom but Pats fans can do the same defending Tom.

  I agree with you. Yes, they would have beaten us.  So what?  They still broke the rules.  If you don't like the rules, vote on them and get them changed.  Meanwhile, if you break them, you get penalized.  If this were the Tampa Bay Bucs, it wouldn't be a big deal, but Tom Brady does it and pretty soon you hear the Supreme Court mentioned.  

Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire(and I'm a Cards fan) and Barry Bonds looked like the greatest, but they were cheating.  When they didn't cheat, they were still really good, but didn't hit nearly as many home runs.  Brady, like the afore mentioned baseball players) would still be good w/o cheating, but he wanted that Lombardy and looked for that competitive edge.   It is still cheating and most people don't respect cheating.  Nor should they.   

  

[nburgmei]

I'm going to vote no on this. Definitely top 5, regardless the firmness of the balls he likes to play with.

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 hours ago, LockeDown said:

  I agree with you. Yes, they would have beaten us.  So what?  They still broke the rules.  If you don't like the rules, vote on them and get them changed.  Meanwhile, if you break them, you get penalized.  If this were the Tampa Bay Bucs, it wouldn't be a big deal, but Tom Brady does it and pretty soon you hear the Supreme Court mentioned.  

Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire(and I'm a Cards fan) and Barry Bonds looked like the greatest, but they were cheating.  When they didn't cheat, they were still really good, but didn't hit nearly as many home runs.  Brady, like the afore mentioned baseball players) would still be good w/o cheating, but he wanted that Lombardy and looked for that competitive edge.   It is still cheating and most people don't respect cheating.  Nor should they.   

  

Yeah that is what a lot of Patriots fans don't comprehend for some reason. It really doesn't matter if they would've beat us anyway without cheating. We were a huge underdog and they had the better team + nobody was picking us to win. Pats fans are in denial if they think Brady didn't orchestrate the Balls being deflated or know about it. He touches the ball on every play so that is common sense. Then he doesn't cooperate with an investigation and has his phone destroyed. He messed with the integrity of the game plain and simple. Had this been a criminal investigation that would've been Obstruction of Justice destroying a Cell Phone that has evidence on it. I think 4 games is about right because it is at least lengthy = a quarter of the season but not too long to where the Patriots season will be wrecked. 1 or 2 games would've been a slap on the wrist and something like 6-8 games would've been too long for what he did so I am fine with 4 games. Patriots also lost their 1st Round Draft pick and Kraft agreed to the punishment, so along with Brady's suspension they are getting nailed pretty good. I would be saying the same if it were Peyton or Andrew so my Post isn't even about hating on the Pats. You cant mess with the integrity of the game and lie or have items destroyed during an investigation. Does this tarnish Brady's legacy, not really to the point to where I would say he wasn't a Top 5 QB of all-time but it does have me question it a little. I wonder how long this has been going on, etc.. They didn't have 1 fumble at home all season in 2014.

[southwest1]

11 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

They actually had no fumbles at home all season in 2014 that much I do know. I looked it up. Strange considering the weather they play in.

This is a great post CBE. I love your last line that I bolded too. Very accurate, ironic, & truthful when you remember that Foxboro is known for wind, rain, & snow in the playoffs. Bravo sir! 

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

This is a great post CBE. I love your last line that I bolded too. Very accurate, ironic, & truthful when you remember that Foxboro is known for wind, rain, & snow in the playoffs. Bravo sir! 

Yeah you know how rare that is. Only 2 other teams in the last 25 years accomplished that and the Patriots don't have HOFame WR's or RB's but yet they had no fumbles?? Tom didn't fumble either. It just makes one think. Gronkowski is their only HOFamer that catches passes and he's a TE.

[southwest1]

18 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah you know how rare that is. Only 2 other teams in the last 25 years accomplished that and the Patriots don't have HOFame WR's or RB's but yet they had no fumbles?? Tom didn't fumble either. It just makes one think.

It sure does my friend. And I know what NE fans are gonna say to this criticism too. Come on fellas, Bill Belichick practices wet ball drills all the time, putting balls in freezers, & Brady usually plays with gloves on in cold weather you know. 

 

Here's the problem with that line of reasoning: The Pats have the best non fumble numbers better than 31 other teams in the NFL, which is darn near impossible to pull off yr after yr but somehow NE does it. Odd, isn't it? 

 

Now, I'm no stat guru & I don't mean to invoke a JFK conspiracy theory here, but no team is that excellent with ball security since 2000. It's just not a pattern that any other franchise has ever matched let alone come close to.

 

The Buffalo Bills in the same division play in horrible conditions too & they have never cut down on fumbles & turnovers like NE miraculously seems to do consistently. This isn't a preparation issue but a not humanly possible issue to me. 

[SaturdayAllDay]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah that is what a lot of Patriots fans don't comprehend for some reason. It really doesn't matter if they would've beat us anyway without cheating. We were a huge underdog and they had the better team + nobody was picking us to win. Pats fans are in denial if they think Brady didn't orchestrate the Balls being deflated or know about it. He touches the ball on every play so that is common sense. Then he doesn't cooperate with an investigation and has his phone destroyed. He messed with the integrity of the game plain and simple. Had this been a criminal investigation that would've been Obstruction of Justice destroying a Cell Phone that has evidence on it. I think 4 games is about right because it is at least lengthy = a quarter of the season but not too long to where the Patriots season will be wrecked. 1 or 2 games would've been a slap on the wrist and something like 6-8 games would've been too long for what he did so I am fine with 4 games. Patriots also lost their 1st Round Draft pick and Kraft agreed to the punishment, so along with Brady's suspension they are getting nailed pretty good. I would be saying the same if it were Peyton or Andrew so my Post isn't even about hating on the Pats. You cant mess with the integrity of the game and lie or have items destroyed during an investigation. Does this tarnish Brady's legacy, not really to the point to where I would say he wasn't a Top 5 QB of all-time but it does have me question it a little. I wonder how long this has been going on, etc.. They didn't have 1 fumble at home all season in 2014.

I agree with you guys 100%. Its obvious that we wouldn't have won that game against them. 

The big question is, how long was this going on previously? I mean look at the game the week before, where they BARELY beat Baltimore. If they did the same thing the week before (which if they have had suspiciously low fumble/drop numbers all season, it would stand to reason that they did) and it resulted in one play that shouldn't have happened, it made the difference in the outcome of the game. If they didn't cheat they wouldn't have gotten to the game against us, period. Since they cheated their way to the game it doesn't matter Whether or not they could beat us without cheating.

Tom got caught and while it doesn't mean he's a bad player (still a very smart,  talented guy), it means he may always have an asterisk by his name. If not officially,  then by a large number of NFL supporters. I think he will always be considered as a contender for the G.O.A.T. But every arguement will have one guy who brings this up and at least casts doubt. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

I agree with you guys 100%. Its obvious that we wouldn't have won that game against them. 

The big question is, how long was this going on previously? I mean look at the game the week before, where they BARELY beat Baltimore. If they did the same thing the week before (which if they have had suspiciously low fumble/drop numbers all season, it would stand to reason that they did) and it resulted in one play that shouldn't have happened, it made the difference in the outcome of the game. If they didn't cheat they wouldn't have gotten to the game against us, period. Since they cheated their way to the game it doesn't matter Whether or not they could beat us without cheating.

Tom got caught and while it doesn't mean he's a bad player (still a very smart,  talented guy), it means he may always have an asterisk by his name. If not officially,  then by a large number of NFL supporters. I think he will always be considered as a contender for the G.O.A.T. But every arguement will have one guy who brings this up and at least casts doubt. 

 

Yeah there are a few Posters in here that have said in the past "there are real no Greatest of all-times". Reasoning behind that is it's impossible to compare ERA's for one and another thing is most people have different criteria when selecting who they think is the best. All of these QB's are in the discussion for GOAT IMO = Graham, Unitas, Montana, Elway, Peyton, and Tom for many reasons. Some may even put Favre and Marino in that mix too. A lot of people have different opinions. I personally will stick with Montana as #1 but I can create an argument for every QB I just listed to why they were the GOAT.

[southwest1]

9 hours ago, jskinnz said:

 

Not even close to impacting his status in the game.

This is the most succinct & direct answer to this thread question. I will always believe Brady knows more than he will ever tell. But at the end of the day, Tom's still an elite & clutch QB that I fear everytime he steps onto a football field. Do I hate him personally? No. Does losing to him frequently bother me? Absolutely. Is he a 1st ballot HOF player? Of course. Do I think Brady took this case too far & made a fool of himself? Yes. If he just took the punishment initially, all this hoopla would have faded away. Who's he trying to preserve his innocence to? Little kids? His own kids? Who knows. 

 

I view Tom Brady & Deflate Gate the same way I view director Woody Allen & his marriage to a family member. I'm not thrilled over it, but I can separate a celebrity that I find entertaining from his personal life or a competitor from a error in judgment. Will this scandal prevent Brady from getting a yellow jacket or being regarded as 1 of the best field generals to ever play professional football? No, not 1 bit when his sports legacy gets written in stone. 

[RockThatBlue]

I hate Tom Brady but I feel sorry for the browns. Thats Bradys first game back. Yikes. We know how Tommy boy plays when hes ticked off, the NFL might have to bring a mercy rule in that game. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

56 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

I hate Tom Brady but I feel sorry for the browns. Thats Bradys first game back. Yikes. We know how Tommy boy plays when hes ticked off, the NFL might have to bring a mercy rule in that game. 

I can see that game being 55-0 LOL.

[dynasty13]

20 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

They actually had no fumbles at home all season in 2014 that much I do know. I looked it up. Strange considering the weather they play in.

 

10 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

 They didn't have 1 fumble at home all season in 2014.

 

9 hours ago, southwest1 said:

And I know what NE fans are gonna say to this criticism too. Come on fellas, Bill Belichick practices wet ball drills all the time, putting balls in freezers, & Brady usually plays with gloves on in cold weather you know. 

 

'Number of fumbles' and 'Number of Fumbles Lost' are different things. The Patriots DID fumble at home in 2014...but they recovered all of them. People love the 'deflated balls were the reason for so few fumbles in 2014' argument...but why then were their 2015 numbers even better?

[cdgacoltsfan]

1 hour ago, dynasty13 said:

 

 

 

'Number of fumbles' and 'Number of Fumbles Lost' are different things. The Patriots DID fumble at home in 2014...but they recovered all of them. People love the 'deflated balls were the reason for so few fumbles in 2014' argument...but why then were their 2015 numbers even better?

If true, they most likely found yet anotherway to circumvent the system.

 

[crazycolt1]

11 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

I hate Tom Brady but I feel sorry for the browns. Thats Bradys first game back. Yikes. We know how Tommy boy plays when hes ticked off, the NFL might have to bring a mercy rule in that game. 

I don't think Brady being ticked off makes any difference. He plays the best he can all the time. He can only play as good as his team mates play the game as a unit.  This mindset of being sacred of the big bad Patriots and Brady is a fan thing, not a player thing.

[southwest1]

6 hours ago, dynasty13 said:

 

 

 

'Number of fumbles' and 'Number of Fumbles Lost' are different things. The Patriots DID fumble at home in 2014...but they recovered all of them. People love the 'deflated balls were the reason for so few fumbles in 2014' argument...but why then were their 2015 numbers even better?

Recovery of footballs after a fumble has taken place has nothing to do with the fact that NE historically since 2000 has the lowest fumble numbers than 31 other teams in the NFL D13. Highly grippable QB gloves, additional moisture on footballs, or even a heightened emphasis on ball security in practice do not account for Foxboro's success rate over a decade long window & you know this. Who are you kidding? 

 

If you put lack of fumbles next to the rest of the rivals in the AFC East with Miami, Buffalo, & NY Jets combined, the Patriots still come out on top, how is that statistically possible? Answer: It's not. Nice try D13. Not buying this nonsense at all. 

[Defjamz26]

Can't look at him like a legend after deflate gate personally, but the majority of people will still look at him as a G.O.A.T.

 

But his cheating I think puts the cap on the Patriots being one of the most dishonest franchises of all time. Coach and player both caught cheating. Unrelated, but they also drafted a murderer.

[Jeff Tolle]

On 7/13/2016 at 11:56 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

On 7/13/2016 at 6:42 PM, LockeDown said:

  I agree with you. Yes, they would have beaten us.  So what?  They still broke the rules.  If you don't like the rules, vote on them and get them changed.  Meanwhile, if you break them, you get penalized.  If this were the Tampa Bay Bucs, it wouldn't be a big deal, but Tom Brady does it and pretty soon you hear the Supreme Court mentioned.  

Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire(and I'm a Cards fan) and Barry Bonds looked like the greatest, but they were cheating.  When they didn't cheat, they were still really good, but didn't hit nearly as many home runs.  Brady, like the afore mentioned baseball players) would still be good w/o cheating, but he wanted that Lombardy and looked for that competitive edge.   It is still cheating and most people don't respect cheating.  Nor should they.   

  

Yeah that is what a lot of Patriots fans don't comprehend for some reason. It really doesn't matter if they would've beat us anyway without cheating. We were a huge underdog and they had the better team + nobody was picking us to win. Pats fans are in denial if they think Brady didn't orchestrate the Balls being deflated or know about it. He touches the ball on every play so that is common sense. Then he doesn't cooperate with an investigation and has his phone destroyed. He messed with the integrity of the game plain and simple. Had this been a criminal investigation that would've been Obstruction of Justice destroying a Cell Phone that has evidence on it. I think 4 games is about right because it is at least lengthy = a quarter of the season but not too long to where the Patriots season will be wrecked. 1 or 2 games would've been a slap on the wrist and something like 6-8 games would've been too long for what he did so I am fine with 4 games. Patriots also lost their 1st Round Draft pick and Kraft agreed to the punishment, so along with Brady's suspension they are getting nailed pretty good. I would be saying the same if it were Peyton or Andrew so my Post isn't even about hating on the Pats. You cant mess with the integrity of the game and lie or have items destroyed during an investigation. Does this tarnish Brady's legacy, not really to the point to where I would say he wasn't a Top 5 QB of all-time but it does have me question it a little. I wonder how long this has been going on, etc.. They didn't have 1 fumble at home all season in 2014.

Yeah, and Tom Brady didn't fumble against Raiders in the AFC Championship game either????

Sent from my iPad *

[Jason_]

I say yes, but I mainly say that to Pats fans just to tick them off

 

[RockThatBlue]

20 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

I say yes, but I mainly say that to Pats fans just to tick them off

 

[cdgacoltsfan]

1 hour ago, Jason_S said:

I say yes, but I mainly say that to Pats fans just to tick them off

 

What ever became of Coolpat and Bojaingles from the old Star forum? I miss those two knuckleheads.