Does Brady cheating remove him from G.O.A.T. conversation?

[Jason_]

Just now, cdgacoltsfan said:

What ever became of Coolpat and Bojaingles from the old Star forum? I miss those two knuckleheads.

 

no idea who either of them are

[Jeff Tolle]

Yes, yes, yes

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A *

[dynasty13]

19 hours ago, southwest1 said:

Recovery of footballs after a fumble has taken place has nothing to do with the fact that NE historically since 2000 has the lowest fumble numbers than 31 other teams in the NFL D13. Highly grippable QB gloves, additional moisture on footballs, or even a heightened emphasis on ball security in practice do not account for Foxboro's success rate over a decade long window & you know this. Who are you kidding? 

 

If you put lack of fumbles next to the rest of the rivals in the AFC East with Miami, Buffalo, & NY Jets combined, the Patriots still come out on top, how is that statistically possible? Answer: It's not. Nice try D13. Not buying this nonsense at all. 

 

So we can't explain why their fumble numbers in 2015 were consistent with what they've been the last 10 years...

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, dynasty13 said:

 

So we can't explain why their fumble numbers in 2015 were consistent with what they've been the last 10 years...

No but we can explain why they don't fumble when playing in New England vs. elsewhere.

 

Quote

Additionally, according to Stats, LLC, the six players who have played extensively for the Patriots and other teams in this span all fumbled far less frequently wearing the New England uniform. Including recovered fumbles, Danny Amendola, BenJarvus Green-Ellis, Danny Woodhead, Wes Welker, Brandon LaFell and LeGarrette Blount have lost the ball eight times in 1,482 touches for the Patriots since 2010, or once every 185.3 times. For their other teams, they fumbled 22 times in 1,701 touches (once every 77.3).

 

It's been a great offseason, the Tom Brady Kill Everybody Tour ends in Peyton Manning riding off into the sunset a champion and then gets suspended anyway. The good news is the Patriots still play in the AFC East and will still go 4-0 and win the division, and Peyton Manning isn't out there to outplay Brady anymore.

[crazycolt1]

Saying who is or was the GOAT cant be answered. It is nothing but opinion and everyone's is different. This debate has been going on for so long and will continue forever. One thing I can say is no matter who your opinion is on who the GOAT is none of them wouldn't be in the conversation without great team mates around them. Football is such a team sport to single out just one player as a GOAT is looking at a 11th of the picture. There are so many variables that influence football games. One thing too many fans do is disregard that there was football before super bowl one. You have a handful of players who set the standards long before super bowl one. Go back and look at players like Sammy Baugh, Bart Starr, Dick Lane, Sid Luckman, George Blanda, Bobby Lane, Bob Waterfield, Y.A. Tittle, Norm Van Brocklin, Len Dawson and Otto Graham. All of these guys can be put into the conversation as the GOAT along with the popular ones of the modern era. If you take into account with what he did Sammy Bough may be the GOAT?  He lead the league in passing, punting and interceptions at one time in his career. No other QB in history can claim that. Should things like that be over looked because it wasn't in the modern era?

[southwest1]

3 hours ago, dynasty13 said:

 

So we can't explain why their fumble numbers in 2015 were consistent with what they've been the last 10 years...

Let's compare those fumble & or ball security numbers against every team in the AFC East division for the past decade not just Foxboro D13 & then we can talk or begin the conversation there where it should actually start. 

 

I will admit Bill's coaching staff is excellent at all coaching & coordinator positions that much I will concede willingly. But, intellectual prowess & experience alone doesn't guarantee low fumble numbers season by season alone. 

 

Slightly off topic: I'm really looking forward to seeing Jimmy G. in real game action. He's very talented. I could see him going 3-1. Plus, I wanna see how well Jimmy scrabbles away from Chandler Jones now in AZ. Easier said than done I know. 

 

To be honest with you, I will be relieved when deflate gate finally wraps up because I just wanna see compelling games again & see if Luck can put last yrs injure prone season behind him too. Brady will be dangerous just like always & Chewbacca is too good to duplicate his less than stellar showing last season. He's gotta reduce the turnovers though. But I think Joe Philbin will work wonders on our line this yr. 

[OsuBuckeye]

Yes

[dynasty13]

2 hours ago, bababooey said:

No but we can explain why they don't fumble when playing in New England vs. elsewhere.

*Sigh*

 

They DO fumble in New England...just because they didn't lose one at home in 2014 doesn't mean that it didn't happen. 

 

32 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Let's compare those fumble & or ball security numbers against every team in the AFC East division for the past decade not just Foxboro D13 & then we can talk or begin the conversation there where it should actually start. 

 

Why would we start the conversation at comparing the best team over that time to 3 of the worst? In terms of ball security, when a team is ahead they tend to fumble less...and when teams are behind and taking more risks they tend to turn it over more. Remember this time last year? Everyone here was saying 'i cant wait to see the Patriots fumble numbers this year'....heck...during the first game of the season against Pittsburgh the Patriots fumbled and I remember people here even saying things like 'see! told ya! Now that they don't have deflated balls they fumble more!' Everyone wanted to believe that more fumbles would prove something.

 

Well now that the total numbers are in...what did we learn? Where did those people go? They had fewer fumbles with those 'properly inflated balls' than they did with the balls that supposedly allowed them to fumble so few times in the past. The argument just doesn't make sense. Not to mention...you want to talk about the last decade? Other than 2014 and 2015, every season for the 10 years before that, the Patriots fumbled MORE times at home than they did on the road. How exactly does that help make your point if the Patriots ballboys only handle the balls when they are at home?

[southwest1]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

Saying who is or was the GOAT cant be answered. It is nothing but opinion and everyone's is different. This debate has been going on for so long and will continue forever. One thing I can say is no matter who your opinion is on who the GOAT is none of them wouldn't be in the conversation without great team mates around them. Football is such a team sport to single out just one player as a GOAT is looking at a 11th of the picture. There are so many variables that influence football games.

Yes, all this true CC1. No QB ever wins a championship alone as you correctly suggest. So much goes into GOAT criteria: SB rings, comeback performances, crunch time in the end zone, making players around you better etc than they would otherwise be without you; rising above adverse circumstances...

 

At the end of the day, you either deserve a HOF jacket or you don't & Manning, Brady, Eli, Big Ben, & Rogers will all be fitted for a tailored yellow jacket soon & rightfully so too I might add. 

[SilentHill]

IMHO he wasn't in the G.O.A.T. conversation before the cheating.

[southwest1]

11 minutes ago, dynasty13 said:

 

Why would we start the conversation at comparing the best team over that time to 3 of the worst? When a team is ahead they tend to fumble less...and when teams are behind and taking more risks they tend to fumble more. Remember this time last year? Everyone here was saying 'i cant wait to see the Patriots fumble numbers this year'....heck...during the first game of the season against Pittsburgh the Patriots fumbled and I remember people here even saying things like 'see! told ya! Now that they don't have deflated balls they fumble more!' Everyone wanted to believe that more fumbles would prove something.

 

Well now that the total numbers are in...what did we learn? Where did those people go? They had fewer fumbles with those 'properly inflated balls' than they did with the balls that supposedly allowed them to fumble so few times in the past. The argument just doesn't make sense. Not to mention...you want to talk about the last decade? Other than 2014 and 2015, every season for the 10 years before that, the Patriots fumbled MORE times at home than they did on the road. How exactly does that help make your point if the Patriots ballboys only handle the balls when they are at home?

Where exactly did I specify that the location of fumbles home or away matters? I don't recall even mentioning that D13. 

 

"Why would we start the conversation at comparing the best team over that time to 3 of the worst?" 

 

You really don't comprehend why I wanted to include ball security numbers across the entire AFC East division for 10 years? Seriously? I don't know maybe a decade is a good measuring stick to compare & contrast how well or not so well all rivals in that division fare with lousy weather conditions when November & Decembers brings high winds, sleet, rain, & snow perhaps. 

 

Also, when did I mention ball boys when corresponding with you today? I never mentioned that once either. Why do you keep mentioning things I never said to begin with? Just curious. 

[dynasty13]

23 hours ago, southwest1 said:

Where exactly did I specify that the location of fumbles home or away matters? I don't recall even mentioning that D13. 

 

"Why would we start the conversation at comparing the best team over that time to 3 of the worst?" 

 

You really don't comprehend why I wanted to include ball security numbers across the entire AFC East division for 10 years? Seriously? I don't know maybe a decade is a good measuring stick to compare & contrast how well or not so well all rivals in that division fare with lousy weather conditions when November & Decembers brings high winds, sleet, rain, & snow perhaps. 

 

Also, when did I mention ball boys when corresponding with you today? I never mentioned that once either. Why do you keep mentioning things I never said to begin with? Just curious. 

I quoted more than just your post in my reply. Overall the narrative for those who try to connect the ball pressure to fumble rates is that they never fumble at home and that somehow proves something. I am simply making the case that a) they DO fumble at home, and b) when you actually look at the numbers, it doesn't support that claim

[southwest1]

41 minutes ago, dynasty13 said:

I quoted more than just your post in my reply. Overall the narrative for those who try to connect the ball pressure to fumble rates is that they never fumble at home and that somehow proves something. I am simply making the case that a) they DO fumble at home, and b) when you actually look at the numbers, it doesn't support that claim

That's fair D13. You're right. You did reply to more than just my post. I like you & I'm not really gonna hammer you on this deflate gate, PSI level thing too much because I know how talented the Patriots are both on the sidelines & on the roster for decades. We're fine D13. You're cool. I've got no problems with you at all. 

 

I would like to see every division in both the AFC & NFC conferences calculate their fumble/turnover numbers every season & just compare & contrast what each of the division leaders numbers are across the league just the AFC East alone over at least a 10 yr window. 

 

I'm glad Brady finally agreed to sit down. It was the right thing to do & after his suspension has been served; we can all put this football nightmare to be forever. 

[Gavin]

No but it does mean he is worthy of an asterisk next to his name. Regardless the Colts could have been playing with any balls and they still were going to get stomped into oblivion and as has been stated he wasn't suspended for cheating he was suspended basically for withholding possible valuable information. On a related note I consider Barry Bonds who is now the all time HR leader to have been taking steroids (thereby cheating as well) and though he don't have an asterisk physically next to his name in the record books he does to a lot of fans and so will Brady right or wrong.

 

It just goes with the territory. For Me the Homerun record is a bit sacred much more so to me than any football record as impressive as many of them are (With the possible exception of Brett Favres consecutive games played streak)

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

We all know Tom Brady is good okay I get that , 

 

When your team has cheated since your coach became the Head Coach it really makes winning much easier & makes everyone on the team look better we only know about the things the Patriots were caught doing IMO they were not caught each time they stepped over the line , 

 

PATRIOTS-ONLY: Spygate (2007) • PEDSgate (4x since 2007) •  •IRgate (2013) • Walkthroughgate (2002) • Deflategate (2015)  • Formationgate (2015) • Tuckgate (2001) •Tampergate (2015: Revis) • Headsetgate (2015)

 

The hoodie is known for making great decisions a great coach in many peoples opinion with a great QB , IMO looking great is much easier for a coach & QB when they will do anything to win .

 

They are every bit as great as Lance Armstrong - Barry Bonds - Mark McGuire - Sammy Sosa & every other cheater in history . 

 

A true G.O.A.T would'nt need to turn over there phone or lie or take it to court to try to bully the NFL into letting them play the game , A honest person who makes a mistake will own up to it , Not look like a lying snake on a stage in front of his fans with a cat ate the canary look on his face , The OWNER the Coach & the QB in New England were & are unable to be honest about this subject attacking others blaming others but excepting no blame for there actions that has put the INTEGRITY of the game in question there has been many opportunities to set the record straight none have as yet been taken , A G.O.A.T is a man of INTEGRITY Tom Brady is not that MAN ...

 

Montana Unitas Manning were nothing like Tommy terrific they were not perfect QB's on a team with a history of cheating & they should not be compared to a lying cheating weasel who in New England is perfect , They were great QB's who earned each & every win with honor & dignity they are beyond reproach & it is a disservice to associate them with Brady ...

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, ÅÐØNϧ 1 said:

We all know Tom Brady is good okay I get that , 

 

When your team has cheated since your coach became the Head Coach it really makes winning much easier & makes everyone on the team look better we only know about the things the Patriots were caught doing IMO they were not caught each time they stepped over the line , 

 

PATRIOTS-ONLY: Spygate (2007) • PEDSgate (4x since 2007) •  •IRgate (2013) • Walkthroughgate (2002) • Deflategate (2015)  • Formationgate (2015) • Tuckgate (2001) •Tampergate (2015: Revis) • Headsetgate (2015)

 

The hoodie is known for making great decisions a great coach in many peoples opinion with a great QB , IMO looking great is much easier for a coach & QB when they will do anything to win .

 

They are every bit as great as Lance Armstrong - Barry Bonds - Mark McGuire - Sammy Sosa & every other cheater in history . 

 

A true G.O.A.T would'nt need to turn over there phone or lie or take it to court to try to bully the NFL into letting them play the game , A honest person who makes a mistake will own up to it , Not look like a lying snake on a stage in front of his fans with a cat ate the canary look on his face , The OWNER the Coach & the QB in New England were & are unable to be honest about this subject attacking others blaming others but excepting no blame for there actions that has put the INTEGRITY of the game in question there has been many opportunities to set the record straight none have as yet been taken , A G.O.A.T is a man of INTEGRITY Tom Brady is not that MAN ...

 

Montana Unitas Manning were nothing like Tommy terrific they were not perfect QB's on a team with a history of cheating & they should not be compared to a lying cheating weasel who in New England is perfect , They were great QB's who earned each & every win with honor & dignity they are beyond reproach & it is a disservice to associate them with Brady ...

 

 

Just don't let any Pats fans read this . They will say where's your proof? Eventhough there is a lot of proof! Great Post by the way. Pats fans and some other people saying this is a farce/witch hunt just believe Tom had no knowledge of balls being Deflated below the legal limit eventhough he touches the ball on every play. They believe the ball boys would just take it upon themselves to Deflate balls on their own as well and Tom wouldn't notice LOL. They also think destroying a Cell Phone is no big deal during an investigation?? In a criminal investigation that would be Obstruction of Justice by the way but it's all fine for people defending Tom I guess?? I guess we should just fine him 25,000 dollars and call it day according to people defending him which would be like you guys fining me 1 dollar for cheating and lying.

[CanuckColtsFan]

When you get caught cheating It shows a willingness to subvert the rules of the game. It makes you wonder what else they've done and haven't got caught for. Plus this isn't the first time. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

19 minutes ago, CanuckColtsFan said:

When you get caught cheating It shows a willingness to subvert the rules of the game. It makes you wonder what else they've done and haven't got caught for. Plus this isn't the first time. 

To the people that defend him they should be shameful because not only do we have this but also Spygate where the whole team cheated. I guess some people have no integrity. Roger Goodell isn't going to follow through on something that he thinks is bogus, anyone that thinks that is naïve and is in love with Tom Brady. Why would you tarnish one of the faces of the NFL that makes your league a ton of money? That would make the league look bad. Makes no sense unless you know he is in the wrong. Science doesn't prove anything either. My tires have 32 pound of pressure in them on average. As a test last winter I measured them in the month of January and made sure each had 32 because of this case actually. Guess what all 4 of my tires a week later that month still had 32 pounds of pressure and it was colder than hell outside. I was just curious to see if any tire would be off and I even drove my car in cold weather to work and back in that week timeframe. Some people can be fooled but not all people.

[2006Coltsbestever]

17 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

To the people that defend him they should be shameful because not only do we have this but also Spygate where the whole team cheated. I guess some people have no integrity. Roger Goodell isn't going to follow through on something that he thinks is bogus, anyone that thinks that is naïve and is in love with Tom Brady. Why would you tarnish one of the faces of the NFL that makes your league a ton of money? That would make the league look bad. Makes no sense unless you know he is in the wrong. Science doesn't prove anything either. My tires have 32 pound of pressure in them on average. As a test last winter I measured them in the month of January and made sure each had 32 because of this case actually. Guess what all 4 of my tires a week later that month still had 32 pounds of pressure and it was colder than hell outside. I was just curious to see if any tire would be off and I even drove my car in cold weather to work and back in that week timeframe. Some people can be fooled but not all people.

I am going to quote what I said because I want to add, I bought a brand new set of tires before last winter in December so they were basically a month old when I did this test.

[OffensivelyPC]

At the very least it means i dont have to recognize him as the GOAT. 

[CR91]

I don't think so, but I do think history will look at them differently compared to say a Walsh Montana

[2006Coltsbestever]

I often wonder what Marino would've done had he played with a Defense like the Patriots have had. Scary if you think about it. A lot of being great is having help around you. Russell Wilson isn't better than Andrew Luck but he has a Ring. He has a Ring because he had more help in Lynch running the ball and a dominant Defense.

[AZColt11]

The simple answer to the original question for me is "no".  But that doesn't tell the whole story for me.  I consider Brady one of the GOAT's, but I have never considered him THE GOAT.  IMHO, the best I ever saw play with my own eyes was Elway, and he didn't win his Superbowls until the end of his career.  But just on raw talent and determination I think it was Elway.  If we are talking about making the most out of what they had it was probably Montana for me.  He didn't have a gun, he wasn't super swift afoot, he just got it done, albeit with a good cast around him.  Brady is right up there, especially considering where he was drafted, but Montana will always be ahead of him for me.  The allegations of cheating now multiple times by their franchise skews his career a bit for me, as good as it has been.  Even if it isn't his fault, there is enough of a smoking gun to make me wonder what has been going on in Foxboro all this time.  I'm sure it did nothing against the meek or in the AFC championship a couple of years ago.  They would have won those games throwing a fish from the Seattle fish market.  But was it enough to say get over the hump vs. Baltimore a few years ago?  Even the Colts in the early days?  It does make me wonder, and for that alone, he can't be considered THE GOAT IMHO.

[AZColt11]

17 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I often wonder what Marino would've done had he played with a Defense like the Patriots have had. Scary if you think about it. A lot of being great is having help around you. Russell Wilson isn't better than Andrew Luck but he has a Ring. He has a Ring because he had more help in Lynch running the ball and a dominant Defense.

The thing is Wilson, even with all that, has still been sacked a lot.  Why?  is it because of indecision?  Does his OL suck as much as Luck's has?  He has DEFINITELY had better RB's to help him.  Maybe just as good of WR's, it's at least debatable.  Now put him behind what has been a putrid OL.  No running game and they can't pass block either.  And his defense isn't going to be shutting people out and creating turnovers to get him good field position.  What does he look like then? Anybody still think the Colts would have been in the 2014 AFC Championship game? 

[2006Coltsbestever]

28 minutes ago, AZColt11 said:

The thing is Wilson, even with all that, has still been sacked a lot.  Why?  is it because of indecision?  Does his OL suck as much as Luck's has?  He has DEFINITELY had better RB's to help him.  Maybe just as good of WR's, it's at least debatable.  Now put him behind what has been a putrid OL.  No running game and they can't pass block either.  And his defense isn't going to be shutting people out and creating turnovers to get him good field position.  What does he look like then? Anybody still think the Colts would have been in the 2014 AFC Championship game? 

IMO if Wilson played for the 2014 Colts we would've been lucky to be 9-7.

[2006Coltsbestever]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 7:33 AM, Jason_S said:

I say yes, but I mainly say that to Pats fans just to tick them off

 

I know they get fired up over Tommy if anything negative is said about him  

[BOTT]

On July 18, 2016 at 9:42 AM, CR91 said:

I don't think so, but I do think history will look at them differently compared to say a Walsh Montana

Montana played behind one of the dirtiest offensive lines of that era.....under Bill Walsh.  Is that not cheating?  Oh, and his fav receiver admitted to using stickum.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Montana played behind one of the dirtiest offensive lines of that era.....under Bill Walsh.  Is that not cheating?  Oh, and his fav receiver admitted to using stickum.

Yeah there have been other teams that have cheated as well not just the Pats. That is why I have at least stated Tom still belongs in the Top 5 QB's of all-time. I didn't think he was the greatest anyway before this DeflateGate stuff happened. I still had and have Joe Montana #1. In reality Peyton is just as Great as Tom is, he has 5 League MVP's to Tom's 2 and never had a Coach like Bill Belichick. Peyton went to 4 SB's with 4 different Coaches, shows he can play for anyone and be successful. Peyton is his own system.  

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah there have been other teams that have cheated as well not just the Pats. That is why I have at least stated Tom still belongs in the Top 5 QB's of all-time. I didn't think he was the greatest anyway before this DeflateGate stuff happened. I still had and have Joe Montana #1. In reality Peyton is just as Great as Tom is, he has 5 League MVP's to Tom's 2 and never had a Coach like Bill Belichick. Peyton went to 4 SB's with 4 different Coaches, shows he can play for anyone and be successful. Peyton is his own system.  

Both are better than Montana, but that's another topic.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, BOTT said:

Both are better than Montana, but that's another topic.

I will give you this, it is debateable. As we talked about awhile back Dan Marino belongs in that discussion as well. Many dont put him there because he never won a SB but like Andrew so far, he never had a running game or a Defense basically his whole career. Elway didnt win a SB until he got Terrell Davis.

[BOTT]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I will give you this, it is debateable. As we talked about awhile back Dan Marino belongs in that discussion as well. Many dont put him there because he never won a SB but like Andrew so far, he never had a running game or a Defense basically his whole career. Elway didnt win a SB until he got Terrell Davis.

Elway played on mediocre teams with a very conservative coach.  His dragging those teams to super bowl defeats is far more impressive that many others SB wins.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Elway played on mediocre teams with a very conservative coach.  His dragging those teams to super bowl defeats is far more impressive that many others SB wins.

Yeah how he even got to the SB in 86,87,89 was amazing. He had Good WR's but that was about it. His running game and Defense were mediocre in a lot of games in those years. They played against some of the best teams of all-time too in those SB's.

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

On July 13, 2016 at 10:49 AM, chad72 said:

No. He still had to execute the plays at a high level for several seasons in a row. Cheating does not change the fact how he can gun the ball into tight windows while Peyton couldn't (with Brady it is more likely an incompletion if the DB jumps, with Peyton it is more likely an INT). It does not change the fact that he could QB sneak and convert so many 4th & 1s or 3rd & 1s while Peyton hands it off to his RB to get stuffed and punt it away. It does not change the fact how accurate he is inside the numbers underneath. 

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

 

I know that's not what this thread is about, but most of Peyton's interceptions were bone headed throws. Peyton did have them. 

 

But tight window passing?  Yeah maybe it wasn't a pretty spiral but I've never seen someone pass that close to the defenders fingertips, knowing, purposefully making that throw and completing it as often as Peyton. 

[Jules]

Brady has always been firmly in the GOAT conversation since day 1.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

42 minutes ago, Jules said:

Brady has always been firmly in the GOAT conversation since day 1.

 

I posted a while back that most could make a debate for Tom, Peyton, Montana, Elway, or Unitas to being the greatest ever. Tom is Top 5 at the absolute worse IMO and you know how I feel about the Pats  I think he knew about the balls being Deflated and he had his phone destroyed but I still think he is in the Top 5. All he had to do was come out and say something like yeah I like my balls a little deflated and I didn't think I was doing anything wrong, then this whole ordeal would've been over with quickly. He probably would've just got fined.

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I posted a while back that most could make a debate for Tom, Peyton, Montana, Elway, or Unitas to being the greatest ever. Tom is Top 5 at the absolute worse IMO and you know how I feel about the Pats  I think he knew about the balls being Deflated and he had his phone destroyed but I still think he is in the Top 5. All he had to do was come out and say something like yeah I like my balls a little deflated and I didn't think I was doing anything wrong, then this whole ordeal would've been over with quickly. He probably would've just got fined.

The sad part of the whole thing is no one put the two Patriot employees on the spot to tell what they knew. To me that could bring out the truth one way or another. IMO calling someone the 'deflator' because of weight loss is one big pile of horse dung. I would be curious to find out the income of these two dudes and where the income was coming from. They are the ones who hold the so called smoking gun. Would it have been possible to have these two guys brought into court and testify under oath at the supreme court level had it went that far? Is that why Brady decided not to take this to the supreme after saying he would take it to the highest court? Maybe it's just me but I still have my doubts from day one when Brady was ask if he was cheating. He said he didn't think so. That is not a no answer and to me there was doubt in Brady's own mind when he answered. I don't know of anyone who is accused of something they didn't do to give that type of answer. Maybe it's just me? As far as Brady being in the conversation about being the GOAT that is all fan related and there is no clear answer. Never has been and never will be.

[2006Coltsbestever]

28 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

The sad part of the whole thing is no one put the two Patriot employees on the spot to tell what they knew. To me that could bring out the truth one way or another. IMO calling someone the 'deflator' because of weight loss is one big pile of horse dung. I would be curious to find out the income of these two dudes and where the income was coming from. They are the ones who hold the so called smoking gun. Would it have been possible to have these two guys brought into court and testify under oath at the supreme court level had it went that far? Is that why Brady decided not to take this to the supreme after saying he would take it to the highest court? Maybe it's just me but I still have my doubts from day one when Brady was ask if he was cheating. He said he didn't think so. That is not a no answer and to me there was doubt in Brady's own mind when he answered. I don't know of anyone who is accused of something they didn't do to give that type of answer. Maybe it's just me? As far as Brady being in the conversation about being the GOAT that is all fan related and there is no clear answer. Never has been and never will be.

Of course there is no right answer to who is the greatest of all-time. Some think Dan Marino is and he never even won a SB, some would take Favre to the grave! it's definitely opinion based. Regarding the two Patriots employees, I would've loved to hear their story under oath. That would've cleared up a lot for me. I don't think they would risk lying under oath. So had they said Tom knew nothing about what we were doing under oath and it couldn't be proven otherwise than I would accept that. I just find it hard to believe Tom didn't know what he was doing. Then once the investigation started he just looked more guilty IMO, destroying his phone, etc..

[CR91]

8 hours ago, BOTT said:

Montana played behind one of the dirtiest offensive lines of that era.....under Bill Walsh.  Is that not cheating?  Oh, and his fav receiver admitted to using stickum.

 

Every wr used stickum and you're talking about an era where defensives had the advantage and you wanna talk about dirty line play

[BOTT]

20 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Every wr used stickum and you're talking about an era where defensives had the advantage and you wanna talk about dirty line play

Stickum was already banned.  It wasn't the Fred Biletnikoff era.

 

what big advantage did defensive lineman have over the offensive lineman of that era?

[CR91]

58 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Stickum was already banned.  It wasn't the Fred Biletnikoff era.

 

what big advantage did defensive lineman have over the offensive lineman of that era?

 

So was a bunch of other things people were doing to this day like steroids. Dlineman have the freedom to basically do anything to olineman. The only thing olinemen can do is chop block and even that's banned now