"The Case Against Ryan Grigson"

[Detectacon]

Good read. I did not realize that Chuck didn't even have say on who the starting line up is (if true)...

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2015/10/4/9449181/the-case-against-ryan-grigson

 

 

 

 

 

Mods merge if needed.

[Solon]

Honestly, if that's true, Grigson has way too much control. 

[csmopar]

Honestly, if that's true, Grigson has way too much control.

Agreed.

[NewEra]

I had his back. The more I hear about him and see Luck get his face smoked I want him gone. A HC should have say in his own coaches and player personnel.

[Dark Superman]

The Jaguars kicker has done more for our organization than Grigson has this year.

[Dark Superman]

Grigson needs to allow Pagano to coach and run the team how he see's fit. Grigson is no coach. He just needs to sit back and help bring Players to Indianapolis.

[DougDew]

The article seems to be filled with opinion stated as fact. It doesn't seem credible and seems rather biased.

[Detectacon]

Grigson needs to allow Pagano to coach and run the team how he see's fit. Grigson is no coach. He just needs to sit back and help bring Players to Indianapolis.

Just makes you wonder how we would have done with Pagano having the control the we have assumed he had. Of course that is if this is all true. 

[Detectacon]

The article seems to be filled with opinion stated as fact. It doesn't seem credible and seems rather biased.

That's why I have added "if true" to my posts on the matter.

[Superman]

All the same stories we've been hearing. I'm waiting for just one of them to be verified.

 

Like always, no question Grigson has made mistakes, and no question the offensive line hasn't improved to the degree it should have. Let's criticize Grigson for real stuff. Let's not build up all these boogie man stories.

 

Or let's. Colts fans have been doing it for two years now.

[Detectacon]

All the same stories we've been hearing. I'm waiting for just one of them to be verified.

 

Like always, no question Grigson has made mistakes, and no question the offensive line hasn't improved to the degree it should have. Let's criticize Grigson for real stuff. Let's not build up all these boogie man stories.

 

Or let's. Colts fans have been doing it for two years now.

I guess only time will tell. There is one thing that we do know at this point. Grigson has failed to find adequate O-Linemen. 

[twfish]

All the same stories we've been hearing. I'm waiting for just one of them to be verified.

Like always, no question Grigson has made mistakes, and no question the offensive line hasn't improved to the degree it should have. Let's criticize Grigson for real stuff. Let's not build up all these boogie man stories.

Or let's. Colts fans have been doing it for two years now.

Your sanity on this forum right now is one of the few reasons I don't lose it on this forum.

[Superman]

I guess only time will tell. There is one thing that we do know at this point. Grigson has failed to find adequate O-Linemen. 

 

Ehh, he hasn't done a great job, but really, lots of his acquisitions have been hurt. I'll lay blame at Grigson's feet for Cherilus, given he had a degenerative knee condition before we made him the highest paid RT in the history of the league. But guys like Donald Thomas and Hugh Thornton, who are talented but have been hurt, have undermined the line play. Holmes took almost two seasons to earn his way onto the field, but has been adequate. Mewhort is good at LG. Keep this current line together for the rest of this season, and they'll be good enough.

 

But overall, if you want to criticize Grigson for not putting together a good OL, I won't bother you. I just especially dislike when people say he hasn't brought in any linemen, because it's 100% false.

 

I also dislike having to endure all these unverified rumors about meddling and whatnot. I don't doubt that there's at least some truth to them, and that there's been some tension between Grigson and Pagano, but I really don't believe the story about Pep vs. Chud (it doesn't add up), and I highly doubt the story about Harrison and Shipley, and other stories about Grigson determining which players would play.

[wig]

I won't take an article that is filled with nothing but assumptions. Waste of time, that was.

[sfergson727]

Article makes sense to me....fire Grigson and move on, oh....and fire Pep, Grigson might be lonely on the curb.

[Detectacon]

Ehh, he hasn't done a great job, but really, lots of his acquisitions have been hurt. I'll lay blame at Grigson's feet for Cherilus, given he had a degenerative knee condition before we made him the highest paid RT in the history of the league. But guys like Donald Thomas and Hugh Thornton, who are talented but have been hurt, have undermined the line play. Holmes took almost two seasons to earn his way onto the field, but has been adequate. Mewhort is good at LG. Keep this current line together for the rest of this season, and they'll be good enough.

 

But overall, if you want to criticize Grigson for not putting together a good OL, I won't bother you. I just especially dislike when people say he hasn't brought in any linemen, because it's 100% false.

 

I also dislike having to endure all these unverified rumors about meddling and whatnot. I don't doubt that there's at least some truth to them, and that there's been some tension between Grigson and Pagano, but I really don't believe the story about Pep vs. Chud (it doesn't add up), and I highly doubt the story about Harrison and Shipley, and other stories about Grigson determining which players would play.

 

I don't disagree with you on who he has brought in that was hurt or did not workout. All I am saying is that even given those acquisitions we still have a line that is sub par. It has been sub par for some time and he has not done anything new to change it with the exception of Herremans, which hasn't worked out.

 

We have a QB that is the best to come out in a long time. Grigs first job should be to protect our investment. He has failed at that despite what he has, or has not, done. One example of this is drafting a WR this year when it was clearly our strongest position other than QB. Now we are paying for it with a 40 year old backup making the start because the Oline Grigs has put together got our starter (and the future of the franchise) hurt. 

[Superman]

I don't disagree with you on who he has brought in that was hurt or did not workout. All I am saying is that even given those acquisitions we still have a line that is sub par. It has been sub par for some time and he has not done anything new to change it with the exception of Herremans, which hasn't worked out.

 

We have a QB that is the best to come out in a long time. Grigs first job should be to protect our investment. He has failed at that despite what he has, or has not, done. One example of this is drafting a WR this year when it was clearly our strongest position other than QB. Now we are paying for it with a 40 year old backup making the start because the Oline Grigs has put together got our starter (and the future of the franchise) hurt. 

 

Like I said, let's criticize Grigson for real stuff, not made up stuff. Saying the line isn't good enough is real stuff. I don't know when Luck got hurt, but assuming it was on a play where he got hit in the pocket, I'll agree that the failures on the OL led to his injury. Again, that's an assumption, but a very reasonable one.

 

I disagree with the criticism of the Dorsett pick. I've spent way too many words on this topic already, so I'll just say that reaching for need is bad drafting, and I'm fine with the pick.

[Cynjin]

I agree with you about the criticism of Grigson on the Dorsett pick. Without knowing everything that went on during the draft, i.e. was there a good trade available, I am not going to beat him up about it. These reports only give me pause, because IMO this offense is dysfunctional. If Grigson made these decisions about the coaching staff, and that's a big if, then that would be a damning indictment on his management style. I would also be surprised that Irsay would go along with it.

[IndyD4U]

I'm a firm believer that a HC should have full control over his starting lineup. Whether the story is true or not, IDK.

[TheRealKYColtsFan]

Ehh, he hasn't done a great job, but really, lots of his acquisitions have been hurt. I'll lay blame at Grigson's feet for Cherilus, given he had a degenerative knee condition before we made him the highest paid RT in the history of the league. But guys like Donald Thomas and Hugh Thornton, who are talented but have been hurt, have undermined the line play. Holmes took almost two seasons to earn his way onto the field, but has been adequate. Mewhort is good at LG. Keep this current line together for the rest of this season, and they'll be good enough.

 

But overall, if you want to criticize Grigson for not putting together a good OL, I won't bother you. I just especially dislike when people say he hasn't brought in any linemen, because it's 100% false.

 

I also dislike having to endure all these unverified rumors about meddling and whatnot. I don't doubt that there's at least some truth to them, and that there's been some tension between Grigson and Pagano, but I really don't believe the story about Pep vs. Chud (it doesn't add up), and I highly doubt the story about Harrison and Shipley, and other stories about Grigson determining which players would play.

 

that's an awful lot of stuff surrounding the guy, huh?

verified or not, that's a LOT of nonsense surrounding Grigson.

stack that on top of the fact that he's not very good at getting talent, which is evident by how bad we are at almost every position... i'm lead to believe that Grigson just isn't very good at his job.

[Shane Bond]

All the same stories we've been hearing. I'm waiting for just one of them to be verified.

Like always, no question Grigson has made mistakes, and no question the offensive line hasn't improved to the degree it should have. Let's criticize Grigson for real stuff. Let's not build up all these boogie man stories.

Or let's. Colts fans have been doing it for two years now.

Boogie man stories?

Do you watch Colts games?. Do you remember when Peyton and Polian were let go, Irsay wanted to "build the monster" and grigson was the guy?.

It's 4th year and we are making zero progress in "build the monster".

Now real stuff.

1. Trent Richardson

2. Dorsett

[needanoline63]

Grigson has to go. #FireGrigson

[chrisfarley]

No way this article is true. 

[Valpo2004]

No way this article is true. 

 

I don't entirely doubt it. . . if you look back at our questionable history of starting decisions they seem to have been made with the purpose of making Grigson look good rather then who is most effective on the field.

 

Trent and Satele both where absolutely terrible and it was readily apparent that their backups where superior.  But they kept on starting and kept on sucking.

 

The only decision that I can't really blame Grigs on is holding onto Pep Hamilton over Chud.  Right now it looks bad and perhaps it was the wrong decision. . . But last year the Colts where the #3 offense in the league and Pep was the OC.  So sorry if I say it makes sense to me to not fire the OC of the #3 offense in the league.  

[Valpo2004]

I agree with you about the criticism of Grigson on the Dorsett pick. Without knowing everything that went on during the draft, i.e. was there a good trade available, I am not going to beat him up about it. These reports only give me pause, because IMO this offense is dysfunctional. If Grigson made these decisions about the coaching staff, and that's a big if, then that would be a damning indictment on his management style. I would also be surprised that Irsay would go along with it.

 

What worries me is after all this that there is a good chance that Irsay has made his choice in favor of Grigson over Pagano.  

 

So he may decide to keep Grigs on and fire Pagano. . . which then is going to put is in a difficult situation.  Theoretically it should not be hard to find a head coach who wants to coach Andrew Luck.  That fact should give us our pick of coaches.  

 

But with this stuff coming out, we may be scrapping the bottom of the barrel.  Who wants to coach here if they know the GM is gonna be telling them who to start???

[lollygagger8]

Didn't Irsay learn anything from the Na'Polian days, and giving the GM too much control?? 

[John Waylon]

I highly doubt the story about Harrison and Shipley, and other stories about Grigson determining which players would play.

I'm gonna buy on this one. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Why would the coaches decide to bench Shipley, who was doing nothing short of exceptional at center for Harrison? An unproven rookie who, as it turned out, just wasn't very good? Why would the coaches go that route over Holmes? Holmes was a healthy scratch for every game until he became a starter, and he hasn't been that bad.

I just can't see the coaches not picking up on any of that in practices the way we saw it in games.

The move away from Shipley is, to me, the indicator that there is likely some shenanigans going on. He was playing center at a pro bowl level for us last season until we tossed him out for whatever unknown reason we did, and then let him rot on the bench.

[Detectacon]

Saying the line isn't good enough is real stuff.

I disagree with the criticism of the Dorsett pick. I've spent way too many words on this topic already, so I'll just say that reaching for need is bad drafting, and I'm fine with the pick.

Part 1: This is exactly what I am saying.

Part 2: How has the Dorsett pick worked out so far? With the exception of the Hail Mary TD catch versus TN what has he done? I understand he is a rookie. But I believe the key is still out.

Let me ask you this. What is worse? Reaching a little to improve the line we have or taking BPA (at our strongest position other than QB) and sticking with the terrible line we have and getting our QB hurt?

I think it's rhetorical and answers itself.

Why not at least try to beef up the line with low risk/high reward guys like Incognito? I understand he was a cancer for Miami but it can't be worse than the cancer we have now with the Grigson/Pagano rift (if true). He would have instantly bolstered our line.

[Defjamz26]

I think as much as people want to say these stories are just assumptions, there are signs that there is more truth than not to these things.

[bluebombers87]

Here's what I think.

The players like Pags right? I think the majority like Pagano well enough.

These players are (despite some outliers and stereotyping) fairly smart people.

These players want to win.

Why would these players like a coach who is keeping them from winning?

It's not slam dunk proof but maybe the players know Grigson is pulling the strings and know Pagano doesn't have say in what happens.

Maybe, maybe not.

[indy1888]

I'm gonna buy on this one. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Why would the coaches decide to bench Shipley, who was doing nothing short of exceptional at center for Harrison? An unproven rookie who, as it turned out, just wasn't very good? Why would the coaches go that route over Holmes? Holmes was a healthy scratch for every game until he became a starter, and he hasn't been that bad.

I just can't see the coaches not picking up on any of that in practices the way we saw it in games.

The move away from Shipley is, to me, the indicator that there is likely some shenanigans going on. He was playing center at a pro bowl level for us last season until we tossed him out for whatever unknown reason we did, and then let him rot on the bench.

 

I think you are right on this. Phil Wilson said it at the time last year on the scout forum that many in the organization were not happy with that center switch and that it came from the front office.  That was last year, right when it happened.  These other reporters picked up on it a year after the fact.  I have no doubt Grigson made that move.  

[JPFolks]

Like I said, let's criticize Grigson for real stuff, not made up stuff. Saying the line isn't good enough is real stuff. I don't know when Luck got hurt, but assuming it was on a play where he got hit in the pocket, I'll agree that the failures on the OL led to his injury. Again, that's an assumption, but a very reasonable one.

 

I disagree with the criticism of the Dorsett pick. I've spent way too many words on this topic already, so I'll just say that reaching for need is bad drafting, and I'm fine with the pick.

The Dorsett pick in a vacuum is perfectly okay and I can argue that we now have our 3 primary WR's for the next 4-7 years.  But if you look at all the failings leading UP to this year plus our terrible FA's once again (what is Grigs overall batting average on ALL the FA's combined?  It has to be under 1 in 5 doesn't it?) then in THAT context, even if trades were necessary (since we know some O-Linemen were traded for various reasons or better, he may have created a trade for one of the Cowboys linemen etc.) it just seems apparent that too little focus and emphasis have been on fixing our #1 issue.  Even before getting FA's like Gore, Johnson (total bust as bad as TR in terms of miss) etc. we should have made sure we fixed the line so that our QB and whichever RB we had could do their jobs.  So it's a great pick in a vacuum but the Colt's aren't playing in one.   And after 4 years, we have our worst lineup to date and we're going to be smashed hard by NE, DEN, ATL and others coming up, we'll limp into the playoffs if we win our worst in the NFL division and be one and done, or perhaps one onto NE to be embarrassed yet again.  

[Steamboat_Shaun]

GM Ryan Grigson fills in for Coach Pagano this week on @Colts Monday Night. Tweet your ?? for the show here! Tonight at 6 on @1070thefan

— Chuck Pagano Show (@PaganoShow)

October 5, 2015

 

For those of you that are on Twitter, Ryan Grigson is filling in tonight for Pagano on the Chuck Pagano show. They're fielding questions via Twitter all day long, should make for an interesting segment.

[Restored]

All the same stories we've been hearing. I'm waiting for just one of them to be verified.

 

Like always, no question Grigson has made mistakes, and no question the offensive line hasn't improved to the degree it should have. Let's criticize Grigson for real stuff. Let's not build up all these boogie man stories.

 

Or let's. Colts fans have been doing it for two years now.

 

The problem here Superman is that when things like this pop up, they are very rarely concretely verified the the degree you and others are looking for. For years, people thought that Jim Caldwell was just a puppet and Bill/Chris Polian were just pulling the strings. Nothing ever was verified but everyone and their mother knew what was going on. I firmly believe that Grigson has just as much, if not more control than Polian had over what goes on in the organization.

[Superman]

The problem here Superman is that when things like this pop up, they are very rarely concretely verified the the degree you and others are looking for. For years, people thought that Jim Caldwell was just a puppet and Bill/Chris Polian were just pulling the strings. Nothing ever was verified but everyone and their mother knew what was going on. I firmly believe that Grigson has just as much, if not more control than Polian had over what goes on in the organization.

Based on supposition. Draw whatever conclusions you like, but I feel like a lot of these reports aren't reliable.

[Superman]

I'm gonna buy on this one. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Why would the coaches decide to bench Shipley, who was doing nothing short of exceptional at center for Harrison? An unproven rookie who, as it turned out, just wasn't very good? Why would the coaches go that route over Holmes? Holmes was a healthy scratch for every game until he became a starter, and he hasn't been that bad.

I just can't see the coaches not picking up on any of that in practices the way we saw it in games.

The move away from Shipley is, to me, the indicator that there is likely some shenanigans going on. He was playing center at a pro bowl level for us last season until we tossed him out for whatever unknown reason we did, and then let him rot on the bench.

I disagree on Shipley on the simple basis that he wasn't as good as most people think. From there we don't have a lot of room for a consensus.

[Superman]

Boogie man stories?

Do you watch Colts games?. Do you remember when Peyton and Polian were let go, Irsay wanted to "build the monster" and grigson was the guy?.

It's 4th year and we are making zero progress in "build the monster".

Now real stuff.

1. Trent Richardson

2. Dorsett

This roster is more talented than any previous roster. It's twice as good as 2012. Or would you like to see Seth Olsen and Winston Justice starting on the line?

[Defjamz26]

Based on supposition. Draw whatever conclusions you like, but I feel like a lot of these reports aren't reliable.

Stuff like this is never going to be able to be 100% verified because of the nature of the business. The NFL is a "quiet" league where its deemed improper to air dirty laundry in public, and it's always been that way.

But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to connect the dots, and draw a general picture of what goes on behind closed doors. There's always hints.

[austriancolt]

OL is terrible for years now and as a result our franchise QB is hurt right now. After four years with most QB hits it was only a question of time. And yes Luck is responsible for some of those hits and a reason for this is that he has to take some risks because he cant trust or rely on this garbage line. Sorry, but Grigson should be fired! 

[Superman]

Part 1: This is exactly what I am saying.

Part 2: How has the Dorsett pick worked out so far? With the exception of the Hail Mary TD catch versus TN what has he done? I understand he is a rookie. But I believe the key is still out.

Let me ask you this. What is worse? Reaching a little to improve the line we have or taking BPA (at our strongest position other than QB) and sticking with the terrible line we have and getting our QB hurt?

I think it's rhetorical and answers itself.

Why not at least try to beef up the line with low risk/high reward guys like Incognito? I understand he was a cancer for Miami but it can't be worse than the cancer we have now with the Grigson/Pagano rift (if true). He would have instantly bolstered our line.

Why are we trying to evaluate the Dorsett pick after a month? He's a good player, and I'm confident he'll be a big part of the team moving forward.

And it would be worse to reach for need. That's bad drafting, and over time, it undermines the quality of your roster. That's just based on principle. I don't even have to mention how poorly the OL who were available are playing right now.

Not to mention that the WR corps isn't as deep as anyone thought it was. Carter is barely PS material, AJ suddenly can't play... But that's just a footnote. The point is that needs-based drafting is bad drafting.

It would be awesome if we didn't have to keep talking about Richie Incognito. They didn't want him because he's proven to be a bad teammate.