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Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

IndyD4U

By IndyD4U
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NFLfan Ring of Honor

NFLfan

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You can feel good if you want BUT I would be completely embarrassed today if I was a fan of either the Ravens or Colts.

This is illogical. You are not embarrassed that your team has cheated multiple times but would be "completely embarrassed" if your team reported an opposing team's possible rules violations??? That makes no sense. You should be mortified that the Pats have once again been connected to cheating. It is the Pats fans' reaction and denial that have been embarrassing.

Colts and Ravens fans have nothing to be embarrassed about. On the field, they win with class and integrity.

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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

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This is illogical. You are not embarrassed that your team has cheated multiple times but would be "completely embarrassed" if your team reported an opposing team's possible rules violations??? That makes no sense. You should be mortified that the Pats have once again been connected to cheating. It is the Pats fans' reaction and denial that have been embarrassing.

Colts and Ravens fans have nothing to be embarrassed about. On the field, they win with class and integrity.

Few thoughts here to consider.

 

If the Ravens had nothing to be embarrassed about then why did Harbaugh lie when asked if the Ravens tipped off the Colts?

 

If the Colts have nothing to be embarrassed about then why did they not say the Ravens said something to them and try to instead blame their own player Jackson for the suspicion of the deflated football?

 

And on top, Pagano also lied as the Ravens coach called him directly and Pagano has continually denied any knowledge of it.

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Nadine Ring of Honor

Nadine

Posted
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Few thoughts here to consider.

 

If the Ravens had nothing to be embarrassed about then why did Harbaugh lie when asked if the Ravens tipped off the Colts?

 

If the Colts have nothing to be embarrassed about then why did they not say the Ravens said something to them and try to instead blame their own player Jackson for the suspicion of the deflated football?

 

And on top, Pagano also lied as the Ravens coach called him directly and Pagano has continually denied any knowledge of it.

you are grasping at straws and lowering the quality of the conversation in this thread......if that's even possible.

 

I know  you want the conversation to be about anything other that the fact that Tom Brady did this stupid thing.  But, you are close to flaming here

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Narcosys Practice Squad

Narcosys

Posted
Posted

http://larrybrownsports.com/football/tom-brady-equipment-staff-game-ball-rules-officials/268694

"Second, at least by the time of the AFC Championship Game, the inflation level of the footballs was a matter of particular interest to Mr. Brady. He told the Patriots’ equipment staff that he wanted the footballs inflated at the lowest permissible level; he reviewed a highlighted copy of the provision of the Playing Rules that addressed inflation of footballs; and he instructed the equipment staff to present a copy of the rule to the game officials. On the day of the AFC Championship Game, Mr. McNally told referee Walt Anderson that Mr. Brady wanted the balls inflated to a pressure of 12.5 psi. He told the investigators that “Tom … always has me pass a message to the Official’s [sic] that he likes the balls at the minimum permissible PSI of 12.5. … I know this is what Tom wants, and I have been personally told by him of the ball weight preference.”

haha:76evil:

http://deadspin.com/here-is-the-transcript-from-tom-bradys-appeal-hearing-1722113452

Abd the thing is he can lie all he wants, he said in a public statement that he prefers his balls at 12.5. This BEDORE the investigation. So he blatantly lied under oath that he didn't know anything about the psi until the investigation. He's so full of sugarhoneyicetea. (What movie)

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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

Posted
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you are grasping at straws and lowering the quality of the conversation in this thread......if that's even possible.

 

I know  you want the conversation to be about anything other that the fact that Tom Brady did this stupid thing.  But, you are close to flaming here

Yes, I will not discuss further.

 

Will keep to other aspects of the report. Much more in there besides the Ravens revelation ....

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NFLfan Ring of Honor

NFLfan

Posted
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Few thoughts here to consider.

If the Ravens had nothing to be embarrassed about then why did Harbaugh lie when asked if the Ravens tipped off the Colts?

If the Colts have nothing to be embarrassed about then why did they not say the Ravens said something to them and try to instead blame their own player Jackson for the suspicion of the deflated football?

And on top, Pagano also lied as the Ravens coach called him directly and Pagano has continually denied any knowledge of it.

First off, you wrote in the post that I responded to that Colts and Ravens FANS should be embarrassed. What does the above have to do with the fans?

Second, I don't think any of these show that Ravens or Colts personnel were embarrassed. They probably want to protect each other. If someone says "I will tell you something but don't say it came from me", I would not reveal who told me.

But all of this is irrelevant. The Colts and the Ravens are not the ones who cheated and are not the ones going to court. While you find fault with everyone else, you continue to defend Brady and find absolutely nothing wrong with what he did. That is disturbing.

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Nadine Ring of Honor

Nadine

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Yes, I will not discuss further.

 

Will keep to other aspects of the report. Much more in there besides the Ravens revelation ....

not sure that will help.

 

Honestly there is not much left to discuss here other than the final resolution.  We've only got a week but right now, this topic is bringing out the worst in both colts fans and pat fans.

 

Words like childish, sad, embarrassed etc are what people are throwing out and fighting about right now.

 

Both sides are dug in and reporting each other at every opportunity.

 

It's very disappointing to see long time posters at each others throats.

 

Perhaps we need to close this topic until the resolution is final.

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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

Posted
Posted

First off, you wrote in the post that I responded to that Colts and Ravens FANS should be embarrassed. What does the above have to do with the fans?

Second, I don't think any of these show that Ravens or Colts personnel were embarrassed. They probably want to protect each other. If someone says "I will tell you something but don't say it came from me", I would not reveal who told me.

But all of this is irrelevant. The Colts and the Ravens are not the ones who cheated and are not the ones going to court. While you find fault with everyone else, you continue to defend Brady and find absolutely nothing wrong with what he did. That is disturbing.

I will not discuss anymore per Nadine's request. Feel free to PM me and we can continue in private. Thanks.

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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

Posted
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not sure that will help.

 

Honestly there is not much left to discuss here other than the final resolution.  We've only got a week but right now, this topic is bringing out the worst in both colts fans and pat fans.

 

Words like childish, sad, embarrassed etc are what people are throwing out and fighting about right now.

 

Both sides are dug in and reporting each other at every opportunity.

 

It's very disappointing to see long time posters at each others throats.

 

Perhaps we need to close this topic until the resolution is final.

I think you guys use great judgment in these things so if you feel best to close than please do. The hearing is one week away, the 12th and many expect with the judge making this appeal public that a resolution will come in that meeting or the days to follow. We can only hope.

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GoColts8818 Ring of Honor

GoColts8818

Posted
Posted

Worth saying this is just football and as much as I might not like the Pats or Brady it's really not life or death. Same as a Colts fan when Irsay got suspended last year I just kinda shrugged my shoulders and went well that stinks (mostly because of what he did not that the league suspend him for it) and went about my day because I had zero impact on me personally. I wasn't suspended. I wasn't losing money over it. I wasn't banished from going to or watching Colts game. I was still good.

Honestly the amount of energy that has been poured into this thread on both sides to find a big enough loop hole to make it all go away or find the final nail to seal the Pats fate is astounding. Frankly it's probsbly not heathy and again that goes tfor both sides and is not a personal shot at anyone and is just an observation. Things have now gotten to the point people are just picking out points to twist each other words. It's no longer discussing deflstegate it's become about trying to declare victory over the otherside and that's never going to happen. Pats fans are never to going to agree that Brady cheated no matter what is said or shown to them and yes they are gong to look for the things that prove their guy didn't do it and want to focus on that. Colts fans are never going to buy that Brady didn't do it something eith them regarding things that prove their point. It's time for both sides to just accept that because it's not going to change. If it hasn't been changed by something in the news you aren't gong to change it on a message board.

So personally, and I am just suggesting this for the sake of everyone, agree to disagree and stop trying to change the,other sides mind and if this truly still needs to be discussed as events like yesterday when news comes out try to discuss the issue rather than changing the other sides mind because it's not going to happen. Also try it remember rather Brady is suspended or not it has no real effect on your personal life. As I always say if the biggest problem in your life is your football team or this case, your football team's rival, you should be extremely grateful because you have a good life.

Just,to be,clear all of the above is my opinion and merely suggestions, if people wish not to do that that is their right. Thank you for reading my two cents.

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Bobbycovert Walk On

Bobbycovert

Posted
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"Some things that look suspicious" lol really?

And there is no smear campaign.

 

    Yea, I would characterize the actions of patriots employees, the texts, and Brady destroying his phone as suspicious.  I don't believe quite a bit of what they have said in interviews and ,for me, that hurts their credibility.  That said, the infraction (if it occurred) is relatively minor. There is precedent for punishment when it comes to manipulating game balls after they have been checked by officials.  

 

     Also, from what I understand the NFL was warned in advance about the possibility of the Patriots monkeying with the game balls.  The response of officials was to:

  • neglect to record pre-game inflation levels (we are working from Anderson's memory)
  • haphazardly use two meters that resulted in the possibility of a variance in measurement  
  • fail to do even a cursory re-check when the balls went missing right before game time only to magically appear in the hands of patriot staff 

     I could understand any of these things happening under normal circumstances but the NFL had been warned explicitly to watch out for shenanigans with the game balls.  Armed with this warning, NFL staff did their best Barney Fife impersonation.  Does this make the Patriots innocent? No, but it definitely played a part in allowing this overblown saga to take place and makes it very difficult to prove what exactly happened.

 

     As far as the "smear campaign" comment,  it is widely accepted that Mike Kensil (VP of Game Ops) was a source of false information that the NFL was obligated to correct.  Instead they allowed the information to float around until public perception was irrevocably altered and a relatively small issue had turned into what we have now.  if you still balk at the term "smear campaign" surely you'll admit that the NFL has manipulated the flow of information in a manner that benefits one side.

 

    Luckisawesome, this is probably more response than your "LOLwut" reply deserves but I decided that I wanted to be clear.  I think that it is entirely possible that the game balls were manipulated by the Patriots and they, as an organization, lack credibility.  I also feel that the NFL would need a thinktank to devise a way to handle this situation worse.  They have displayed incompetence and bias that makes me question their credibility as well.  Based on what information we have now, I don't see how anyone could make a decision without a significant amount of doubt.

 

     This is pretty much my thoughts on the matter.  I won't respond further unless there is some error in the information I have provided.  Like I said before, I'm not going to waste my time debating here.  This forum is useful for training camp updates and thats really about it.  Any subject requiring impartiality and critical thinking is better discussed elsewhere.  

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corgi Walk On

corgi

Posted
Posted

not sure that will help.

Honestly there is not much left to discuss here other than the final resolution. We've only got a week but right now, this topic is bringing out the worst in both colts fans and pat fans.

Words like childish, sad, embarrassed etc are what people are throwing out and fighting about right now.

Both sides are dug in and reporting each other at every opportunity.

It's very disappointing to see long time posters at each others throats.

Perhaps we need to close this topic until the resolution is final.

If there's any justice in this world then this thread will be taken out back and shot and never spoken of again. It's just insanity.

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ColtsBlueFL Team Captain

ColtsBlueFL

Posted
Posted

It seems new material has been few recently, and the Pretrial hearing where both Goodell and Brady are mandated to appear is August 12th.  In the meantime here is one stop shopping for reading all of the legal filings on this case.(I've only supplied link to the amended answer to complaint).  I urge everyone to read these, as the true arguments of the case will be from positions and testimony located here within these documents.  Going through these will absolutely take time.  Good luck.

 

Brady Appeal hearing-

 

http://assets.law360news.com/0687000/687474/deflategate%20appeal%20hearing%20transcript.pdf

 

NFL Complaint-

 

https://dlbjbjzgnk95t.cloudfront.net/0684000/684565//mnt/rails_cache/https-ecf-nysd-uscourts-gov-doc1-127116497566.pdf

 

NFLPA Petition to Minnesota-

 

http://assets.law360news.com/0684000/684748/Deflategate.pdf

 

NFLPA Amended answer and counterclaim to Complaint-

 

http://www.wcvb.com/blob/view/-/34538284/data/1/-/3bs5e5/-/Union-Court-filing-8-4.pdf

 

Enjoy!!

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Nadine Ring of Honor

Nadine

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Posted

It seems new material has been few recently, and the Pretrial hearing where both Goodell and Brady are mandated to appear is August 12th.  In the meantime here is ons=e stop shopping for reading all of the legal filings on this case.(';ve only supplied link to amended answer to complaint).  I urge everyone to read these, as the true arguments of the case will be from positions and testimony located here within these documents.  Going through these will absolutely take time.  Good luck.

 

Brady Appeal hearing-

 

http://assets.law360news.com/0687000/687474/deflategate%20appeal%20hearing%20transcript.pdf

 

NFL Complaint-

 

https://dlbjbjzgnk95t.cloudfront.net/0684000/684565//mnt/rails_cache/https-ecf-nysd-uscourts-gov-doc1-127116497566.pdf

 

NFLPA Petition to Minnesota-

 

http://assets.law360news.com/0684000/684748/Deflategate.pdf

 

NFLPA Amended answer and counterclaim to Complaint-

 

http://www.wcvb.com/blob/view/-/34538284/data/1/-/3bs5e5/-/Union-Court-filing-8-4.pdf

 

Enjoy!!

Home work? ugh

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SteelCityColt Hall of Famer

SteelCityColt

Posted
Posted

It seems new material has been few recently, and the Pretrial hearing where both Goodell and Brady are mandated to appear is August 12th.  In the meantime here is ons=e stop shopping for reading all of the legal filings on this case.(';ve only supplied link to amended answer to complaint).  I urge everyone to read these, as the true arguments of the case will be from positions and testimony located here within these documents.  Going through these will absolutely take time.  Good luck.

 

Brady Appeal hearing-

 

http://assets.law360news.com/0687000/687474/deflategate%20appeal%20hearing%20transcript.pdf

 

NFL Complaint-

 

https://dlbjbjzgnk95t.cloudfront.net/0684000/684565//mnt/rails_cache/https-ecf-nysd-uscourts-gov-doc1-127116497566.pdf

 

NFLPA Petition to Minnesota-

 

http://assets.law360news.com/0684000/684748/Deflategate.pdf

 

NFLPA Amended answer and counterclaim to Complaint-

 

http://www.wcvb.com/blob/view/-/34538284/data/1/-/3bs5e5/-/Union-Court-filing-8-4.pdf

 

Enjoy!!

 

Thank you for sharing, I'm about 80 pages into the appeal document... very interesting. Skimming over some of the later sections, I get the feeling the NFL has very carefully built this case.

 

Question for legal eagles, what significance, if any does it have that Brady was sworn in by a notary for the appeal? 

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weslo1812 Walk On

weslo1812

Posted
Posted

Time heals all 'wounds.'

This whole thing will become a footnote, no more, no less. People who don't want to won't forget it, but it won't affect his place on all time lists, it won't affect his place on NFL Network countdowns, it won't affect his place in the Hall of Fame, and it won't affect when he is mentioned years and years from now during Superbowl broadcasts when they talk about him.

And I'm sorry to say, but regardless of the outcome of this whole thing, you're just gonna have to get over it too. If he just admitted it at the beginning, the haters would still call him out for it. Their minds were made up the second the Mortensen tweet went public. All the rest is just a show and hasn't changed a thing.

I don't got a thing to get over!!!! I just know Brady looks as guilty as can be and I'm not fooled and deceived by a liar like sooo many Pats fans are. And reguardless of what you wanna think... this will not be forgotten any time soon. In today's Mas media age....no it won't. Especially with how it been dragged on like it has. I'm just glad I'm not the fan of a liar and a cheater. That's for sure!

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ColtsBlueFL Team Captain

ColtsBlueFL

Posted
Posted

    Yea, I would characterize the actions of patriots employees, the texts, and Brady destroying his phone as suspicious.  I don't believe quite a bit of what they have said in interviews and ,for me, that hurts their credibility.  That said, the infraction (if it occurred) is relatively minor. There is precedent for punishment when it comes to manipulating game balls after they have been checked by officials.  

 

     Also, from what I understand the NFL was warned in advance about the possibility of the Patriots monkeying with the game balls.  The response of officials was to:

  • neglect to record pre-game inflation levels (we are working from Anderson's memory)

We are working from Dean Blandino's edict to make absolutely sure the pregame policy requiring all foot balls to at least be at the 12.5 psi minimum. It has never been a requirement to log pre-game adjusted (if necessary) pressures, but it will be this season.  And spot checks can and will be performed at any time throughout the game(s) 

http://forums.colts.com/topic/39306-deflategate-central-one-thread-merged-moderated/page-35?p=1137005#entry1137005

  • haphazardly use two meters that resulted in the possibility of a variance in measurement  

Asked and answered here -  

http://forums.colts.com/topic/39306-deflategate-central-one-thread-merged-moderated/page-35?p=1137040#entry1137040

  • fail to do even a cursory re-check  when the balls went missing right before game time only to magically appear in the hands of patriot staff 

No time for that.  However, NFL security had been dispatched to retrieve the 12 backup Patriots balls (also psi tested and Marked).  Those arrived at the field about the same time McNally and his bag of footaballs were spotted.  MacNally's bag should have been declared ineligible, quarantined on the spot,  and the backup balls put into play.

 

     I could understand any of these things happening under normal circumstances but the NFL had been warned explicitly to watch out for shenanigans with the game balls.  Armed with this warning, NFL staff did their best Barney Fife impersonation.  Does this make the Patriots innocent? No, but it definitely played a part in allowing this overblown saga to take place and makes it very difficult to prove what exactly happened.

 

The NFL took proper action to ensure following policy on the books at the time of the AFCCG.  It took the nefarious action of stealing the footballs out of the officials room and taking them unescorted into a bathroom to upset the applecart.  The Refs and the NFL are not at fault here.

 

     As far as the "smear campaign" comment,  it is widely accepted that Mike Kensil (VP of Game Ops) was a source of false information that the NFL was obligated to correct.  

 

This is opinion stated as fact.  Supply your evidence of such or supporting documentation or it will be regarded as speculation. And I also argue it is not the NFL job to correct reporting inaccuracies.  It is the reporters job once the initial report has been proven inaccurate.  I do feel the league could have clamped down harder and reduced the source(s) of leaks.

 

Instead they allowed the information to float around until public perception was irrevocably altered and a relatively small issue had turned into what we have now.  if you still balk at the term "smear campaign" surely you'll admit that the NFL has manipulated the flow of information in a manner that benefits one side.

 

I don't view competitive balance issues as a 'relatively small issue' as you do.  And public opinion didn't drive the investigation, the actions at halftime and NFL security interviews post game collected enough information to drive the decision for an independent investigation.  The court of Public Opinion has no effect on the NFL appeal nor the Federal case in NY.

 

Now, how about the Public confidence in the sport?  I spotted this recently-

 

"However, football’s dependency on maintaining rules that promote a level playing field is no different than for any other sport. Ultimately, loss of public confidence in a sport will cheapen the value of on-field performances, lessen the sport’s value in the eyes of fans and drive out sponsors. This is exactly the downward spiral experienced by professional cycling when its leadership allowed a culture of corruption to take root in that sport. Professional soccer may now be undergoing a similar crisis."

 

In addition I found and agree with this-

 

"In my view, sanctions involving athletic eligibility for on-field misconduct (e.g., intentional cheating such as doping or manipulating equipment to get an advantage) should be based on a deterrent model. In other words, sanction length should be geared toward deterring similar conduct in the future. A suspension should be long enough to motivate others not to cheat in this or similar ways in the future. Viewed in this light, a four-game period of ineligibility appears to me to be rather toward the low end of the appropriate scale."    

 

Or at least in line with 1st time PED's users.  OTOH, I do feel the lack of defined sanctions for on field cheating is a weakness of current NFL policies.

 

As far as the 'everybody is doing it stance?  This piece sums it up for me-

 

"The argument here seems to be that everybody does it, so it’s no big deal. The first problem with that argument, to put it bluntly, is that it reveals a stunted understanding of ethics. The second is that neither is it a strong intellectual rejoinder. Whether “everybody is doing it” does not answer how harmful the conduct is. Nor does it address the obvious fact that for a game such as football to be in any sense fair all athletes must be operating under the same rules. Otherwise, an athlete could obtain an advantage not based on skill or expertise."

 

It appears to me fines and loss of draft picks to an organization is just not a sufficient deterrent to eliminate/reduce on field cheating. Is not the same organization that was levied fines and loss of draft picks a few years ago for Spygate not that same organization that is, once again, being levied with fines and loss of draft picks in Deflategate??   Both punishments for competitive balance infractions?  In that light, Brady's 4 games is at the minimum of being right, in my mind.

 

If this reply does not meet your requirement of impartiality and critical thinking, then at least enjoy your camp updates.

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weslo1812 Walk On

weslo1812

Posted
Posted

LOL. They had Jastremiski's phone. Or did you already forget.

You can feel good if you want BUT I would be completely embarrassed today if I was a fan of either the Ravens or Colts.[/quot]

Nothing to be embarrassed about for us. You can quit spewing this junk!!! Colts Did their due diligence and wanted to ensure the fairness and integrity of the game. I would be much much more embarrassed to be a fan of a lying and cheating team and QB. And even more so that I could defend people who cheat and clearly lie and that cheating is okay to me. That's an embarrassment and disgrace!!!

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