Discussing the Patriots w/o Brady (merge)

[HOZER]

lol. Really? 4 regular season wins would somehow reflect poorly on the sports most accomplished player of all time? lol. Nice try. But just as a reminder, Cassell went 11-5 and then was shipped to KC. Every Pats fan wants 4-0 assuming Brady even misses that many games. Unlike 2008, he will play so every win is paramount. Go Jimmy!

"most accomplished*"

[The Old Crow]

It doesn't matter, his legacy is destroyed.

[Valpo2004]

If they went 4 - 0 then it would really hurt Brady a lot because that would be the second time that his backup has come in and had a pretty solid winning percentage.  

 

Which would further back the argument that Brady and all his trophies are a product of good coaching/cheating.  

 

0-4 might hurt their chances a lot, might force them to take a wildcard spot in the playoffs.  But it would give backing to the belief that the Pats won all those trophies because of Brady/cheating. 

 

Now personally I think Brady would still be a franchise QB without BB, but I don't think Brady has 4 rings without BB/cheating.  

 

BB always coached well and always put a good team around Brady.  You have other great QB's P. Manning, Brees, and Rodgers and they each only have 1 trophy a piece because they have spent a lot of time covering flaws on their team and as far as we know. . . not cheating.

 

Brady isn't that much better then those guys. . . he has the edge of having good coaching/good team around him and cheating.

[dynasty13]

The record of the team a quarter into this season will in no way affect his legacy.

[csmopar]

Depends which can throw a ball within the psi limits... or whichever one can keep their mouths shut about cheating.

[Valpo2004]

It doesn't matter, his legacy is destroyed.

 

I hardly think so.  Pats won 3 trophies while cheating via spygate.  But spygate seems to be only a footnote to most people when they talk about the Patriots dynasty.  Even non Patriots fans.

 

It could come out that the Pats had a staffer sneaking sleeping pills and laxatives into opposing team's gatoraid for the past 15 years and somehow most fans would forget about it in a few years but still remember those 4 SB wins.

[The Old Crow]

I hardly think so. Pats won 3 trophies while cheating via spygate. But spygate seems to be only a footnote to most people when they talk about the Patriots dynasty. Even non Patriots fans.

It could come out that the Pats had a staffer sneaking sleeping pills and laxatives into opposing team's gatoraid for the past 15 years and somehow most fans would forget about it in a few years but still remember those 4 SB wins.

These championships will unfortunately be remembered like the Barry Bonds home run record. It sits there ignored, and when brought up, eyes basically roll.

[pgt_rob]

Laughing at the pats fans. "If Kraft doesn't stand up to this, I'm done..." LOL right.

[csmopar]

I hardly think so. Pats won 3 trophies while cheating via spygate. But spygate seems to be only a footnote to most people when they talk about the Patriots dynasty. Even non Patriots fans.

It could come out that the Pats had a staffer sneaking sleeping pills and laxatives into opposing team's gatoraid for the past 15 years and somehow most fans would forget about it in a few years but still remember those 4 SB wins.

That's why they should have taken this ring...then history won't forget it.

[Valpo2004]

He goes back to Brady, but it does give him enough leverage to make Brady feel uncomfortable.  

 

Sort of a Steve Young/Joe Montana thing. . . if you start having a cold streak, I can always just send in Jimmy.

 

Brady and Jimmy's relationship could be very contentious if this happened.  Brady knows he's 38 and they have a promising, game proven 23 year old sitting on the bench just waiting for his chance to do to Brady what Brady did to Bledsoe.  

[amfootball]

I hardly think so.  Pats won 3 trophies while cheating via spygate.  But spygate seems to be only a footnote to most people when they talk about the Patriots dynasty.  Even non Patriots fans.

 

It could come out that the Pats had a staffer sneaking sleeping pills and laxatives into opposing team's gatoraid for the past 15 years and somehow most fans would forget about it in a few years but still remember those 4 SB wins.

Yes. Time will gloss over this even more so than spygate. This idea that all of sudden Brady is a cheater is hysterical. Spygate supposedly helped him the most with the defensive signals being taped yet he went on to become the best Qb of all time after the ruling. Then you have this ball deflation and the game in question in which they were not able to prove he did anything, he won 45-7 and then went on to win the SB with proper footballs shredding the best defense in the league. I get it is a great story right now for everyone but his legacy is just fine. That 4th Lombardi cemented his as the best of his generation and most accomplished QB of all time. Really, what much of this hate is about is Pete Carroll's horrible play call. All the haters would give anything for Seattle to have won that game over this deflated stuff. Of that I am certain but Butler saved the day and helped the Pats win their most important title of their legacy.

[The Old Crow]

Yes. Time will gloss over this even more so than spygate. This idea that all of sudden Brady is a cheater is hysterical. Spygate supposedly helped him the most with the defensive signals being taped yet he went on to become the best Qb of all time after the ruling. Then you have this ball deflation and the game in question in which they were not able to prove he did anything, he won 45-7 and then went on to win the SB with proper footballs shredding the best defense in the league. I get it is a great story right now for everyone but his legacy is just fine. That 4th Lombardi cemented his as the best of his generation and most accomplished QB of all time. Really, what much of this hate is about is Pete Carroll's horrible play call. All the haters would give anything for Seattle to have won that game over this deflated stuff. Of that I am certain but Butler saved the day and helped the Pats win their most important title of their legacy.

Sorry AM, your organization has been tried and convicted by the NFL in both of these scandals. It's not about hating, but the integrity of the game. It's something the Patriots and their fans will have to deal with. Patriot fans can brag about their championships, but these will never have the gravitas that Steeler or Packer fans enjoy from other fans.

[Valpo2004]

Yes. Time will gloss over this even more so than spygate. This idea that all of sudden Brady is a cheater is hysterical. Spygate supposedly helped him the most with the defensive signals being taped yet he went on to become the best Qb of all time after the ruling. Then you have this ball deflation and the game in question in which they were not able to prove he did anything, he won 45-7 and then went on to win the SB with proper footballs shredding the best defense in the league. I get it is a great story right now for everyone but his legacy is just fine. That 4th Lombardi cemented his as the best of his generation and most accomplished QB of all time. Really, what much of this hate is about is Pete Carroll's horrible play call. All the haters would give anything for Seattle to have won that game over this deflated stuff. Of that I am certain but Butler saved the day and helped the Pats win their most important title of their legacy.

 

He didn't become the best QB of all time after spygate.  His big argument for the best of all time is his rings.  He has very good stats but not best QB of all time stats.  It's the rings that carry him.  All rings aided by some form of cheating.

 

As far as the deflated footballs it's not about if it affected the 2015 AFC Championship.  It's the realization that this has been going on for a long time.  If you cheated your way into the SB, but didn't cheat in the SB, that doesn't mean you won the SB legitimately because you cheated your way in.  It's impossible to tell but there are a lot of close games Brady has pulled off that could have been helped by flat footballs.  

 

So cheating did play a part in this.  The thing that Pats fans always seem to try to turn this into is acting like "Well if we cheated shouldn't we have won all the games?"  But the answer is no. . . There is no way to cheat that is going to win you all of the games without it being blatently obvious.  But you can cheat to give yourself a slight **ILLEGAL** edge.  And in a league with as much parity as the NFL, with as many close games as the NFL, that slight edge can change a lot of results.

 

Did deflated footballs play a role in the result of the AFC championship game.  No.  But did the Pats do the same thing against the Ravens the game before?  Most likely yes. . . it's hard to believe that Brady and Co suddenly starts cheating in a game against the Colts, a team they have had no problems destroying in the past.  Could they have played a role in the win over the Ravens?  Of course, that game was close.

 

It's the same issue with spygate. . . Spygate wasn't going to deliver every game for the Patriots, but it gave them a slight **ILLEGAL** edge.  

 

The Boston media market likes to turn this into, everyone's picking on the Pats because they win and get every edge.  But that's not the case, these little edges they got where clearly defined in the rules as being illegal.  

 

My view for the record is that these things should tarnish those trophies, unfortunately they don't.  They don't seem to stick in the public's memory for very long.  

[Kyle]

It is pretty clear that Patriot fans are in total denial.

[dynasty13]

Sorry AM, your organization has been tried and convicted by the NFL in both of these scandals. It's not about hating, but the integrity of the game. It's something the Patriots and their fans will have to deal with. Patriot fans can brag about their championships, but these will never have the gravitas that Steeler or Packer fans enjoy from other fans.

 

With all due respect, but this deflating issue has never been about the integrity of the game. That is just the buzz word that keeps getting thrown around to justify where the anger is supposed to stem from. All we've heard for the last week is people complain about how the Patriots and Brady handled it...the supposed lieing is what has people all in a tizzy. People are upset with the response of those involved, not even the action itself. 

[Restored]

With all due respect, but this deflating issue has never been about the integrity of the game. That is just the buzz word that keeps getting thrown around to justify where the anger is supposed to stem from. All we've heard for the last week is people complain about how the Patriots and Brady handled it...the supposed lieing is what has people all in a tizzy. People are upset with the response of those involved, not even the action itself. 

 

That's a matter of perception, mainly of which is echoed by Boston media types. While the lying played a role in the punishment that was dealt, people still understand the cause of it which was rules being broken. Spin it how you want. The Patriots/Brady cheated, got caught and got punished.

[The Old Crow]

He didn't become the best QB of all time after spygate. His big argument for the best of all time is his rings. He has very good stats but not best QB of all time stats. It's the rings that carry him. All rings aided by some form of cheating.

As far as the deflated footballs it's not about if it affected the 2015 AFC Championship. It's the realization that this has been going on for a long time. If you cheated your way into the SB, but didn't cheat in the SB, that doesn't mean you won the SB legitimately because you cheated your way in. It's impossible to tell but there are a lot of close games Brady has pulled off that could have been helped by flat footballs.

So cheating did play a part in this. The thing that Pats fans always seem to try to turn this into is acting like "Well if we cheated shouldn't we have won all the games?" But the answer is no. . . There is no way to cheat that is going to win you all of the games without it being blatently obvious. But you can cheat to give yourself a slight **ILLEGAL** edge. And in a league with as much parity as the NFL, with as many close games as the NFL, that slight edge can change a lot of results.

Did deflated footballs play a role in the result of the AFC championship game. No. But did the Pats do the same thing against the Ravens the game before? Most likely yes. . . it's hard to believe that Brady and Co suddenly starts cheating in a game against the Colts, a team they have had no problems destroying in the past. Could they have played a role in the win over the Ravens? Of course, that game was close.

It's the same issue with spygate. . . Spygate wasn't going to deliver every game for the Patriots, but it gave them a slight **ILLEGAL** edge.

The Boston media market likes to turn this into, everyone's picking on the Pats because they win and get every edge. But that's not the case, these little edges they got where clearly defined in the rules as being illegal.

My view for the record is that these things should tarnish those trophies, unfortunately they don't. They don't seem to stick in the public's memory for very long.

It's not picking on the Pats because they win, because the Red Sox have won and are not viewed the same way. One organization cuts corners, and one doesn't.

[Nobody]

I could see him trading Brady at the end of the season.

[dynasty13]

That's a matter of perception, mainly of which is echoed by Boston media types. While the lying played a role in the punishment that was dealt, people still understand the cause of it which was rules being broken. Spin it how you want. The Patriots/Brady cheated, got caught and got punished.

 

It has nothing to do with what the Boston media is saying...it's turned into the sentiment around here too. Not to mention that if it was ever actually about the integrity of the game, then all punishments for trying to gain an unfair advantage would be just as severe. Not just a fine or warning for pumping in sound or heating up the footballs illegally...the Patriots got punished this severely because the NFL didnt like how the team acted and responded over the last few months...which basically is the NFL saying it was about the integrity of the people involved, NOT the integrity of the game.

[The Lucky Neck Beard]

Just wait till it comes out that Belichick is a robot created by some crazy professors at Brown University.  They made the switch after his stint at Cleveland...  The real Belichick is living in a cage in Brady's basement.

 

The robot is powered off of football air and burning tapes of football footage.

[crazycolt1]

He goes back to Brady, but it does give him enough leverage to make Brady feel uncomfortable.  

 

Sort of a Steve Young/Joe Montana thing. . . if you start having a cold streak, I can always just send in Jimmy.

 

Brady and Jimmy's relationship could be very contentious if this happened.  Brady knows he's 38 and they have a promising, game proven 23 year old sitting on the bench just waiting for his chance to do to Brady what Brady did to Bledsoe.  

Brady didn't do anything to Bledsoe. Bledsoe was injured. Big difference. Had Bledsoe not gotten injured Brady might not have got his chance when he did.

[Restored]

It has nothing to do with what the Boston media is saying...it's turned into the sentiment around here too. Not to mention that if it was ever actually about the integrity of the game, then all punishments for trying to gain an unfair advantage would be just as severe. Not just a fine or warning for pumping in sound or heating up the footballs illegally...the Patriots got punished this severely because the NFL didnt like how the team acted and responded over the last few months...which basically is the NFL saying it was about the integrity of the people involved, NOT the integrity of the game.

 

You are trying to generalize "unfair advantage" punishments like they are one in the same. That's like saying all theft's that occur should have the same punishment severity. I'll agree that the Patriots unwillingness to be upfront and forthcoming played a role in how severe the punishment was, but it doesn't change the reason why they were punished to begin with. Cheating is detrimental to the integrity of the game and that's why Brady and the Patriots got punished.

[PeterBowman]

going 11-5 when he got Bernard Pollard'

[BullsColtsFan1]

Brady without a doubt

[BullsColtsFan1]

I am hoping for 1-3 or 0-4 but I will take 2-2 going into the Colts game.  I think Pitt, Dal and Buf will all be tough. Jax should be a win but you never know.

[dynasty13]

You are trying to generalize "unfair advantage" punishments like they are one in the same. That's like saying all theft's that occur should have the same punishment severity. I'll agree that the Patriots unwillingness to be upfront and forthcoming played a role in how severe the punishment was, but it doesn't change the reason why they were punished to begin with. Cheating is detrimental to the integrity of the game and that's why Brady and the Patriots got punished.

 

Except that it's been well documented how crowd noise can influence a game...yet that isn't a serious offense? Heating balls up on the sideline illegally give less of an advantage as having an under inflated ball? 

 

The inconsistency to how the NFL views 'unfair advantages' and tries to make the case about how much one over the other affects the integrity of the game is very troubling to me.

[Restored]

Except that it's been well documented how crowd noise can influence a game...yet that isn't a serious offense? Heating balls up on the sideline illegally give less of an advantage as having an under inflated ball? 

 

The inconsistency to how the NFL views 'unfair advantages' and tries to make the case about how much one over the other affects the integrity of the game is very troubling to me.

 

Again, you are missing the point. Instead of trying to deflect and complain about how unfair the punishment is in comparison to others, why not try and reflect on why such a great quarterback would feel the need to cheat?

[CLOWN]

I'm not partaking in the classless act of bathing in the Patriots blood. Any fan that can't admit that Brady's one of the all time great players on a team that's just flat out good doesn't know what they are looking at when they watch a football game. I'm with all the known Patriots haters that are saying this is absurd and to much. Goodell and Vincent blew this from beginning to end. I have always questioned Goodell but gave him the benefit of the doubt because it's a tough job. Now I know he's the wrong guy going forward.

 

If the Patriots are 4-0 they would be ecstatic top to bottom.  Why wouldn't they? I think they go 2-2 with Jimmy G. playing Ok. Cassel was no Brady and they got wins but weren't a dangerous team. I know nothing about Jimmy G. but have heard he has great skills and a good work ethic. Plus jimmy G. is a pretty cool football name.  

[ColtsLegacy]

They are decent QB play away from being a contender. Problem is they don't have decent QB play.

If Kyle Orton was still on this team I would give the Bills a slight edge. But they are gonna roll with Matt Cassel I believe. I don't see it being enough to get them past the pats.

And the Pats will have the fantastic Janeane Garofalo. Rex Ryan took lesser Jets teams to AFC Championships with Mark Sanchez at QB.

[CLOWN]

I'll say 2-2 and we'll be 4-0 when they come to town. I don't see it ending well for us. They've owned us and we just stabbed them with a stick.

[Valpo2004]

Brady didn't do anything to Bledsoe. Bledsoe was injured. Big difference. Had Bledsoe not gotten injured Brady might not have got his chance when he did.

 

And Brady is suspended, similar concept.  Only difference is the length of time the *starter* is out.  4 good games probably isn't enough to lift Jimmy G past Brady because A. It's only 4 games.  B. Brady has accomplished a lot more then Bledsoe.

 

But it's certainly enough to let the coach hold it over his head and remind him that there is another guy on this team who's shown he can do the job, and he's a lot younger then you are.

[CLOWN]

It's crazy to even think he wouldn't go back to Brady. He game hasn't diminished to any notable degree and he's arguably the best QB ever to play the game. If he does end up serving 4 games he'll be Jimmy's best friend and teacher.  

[crazycolt1]

And Brady is suspended, similar concept.  Only difference is the length of time the *starter* is out.  4 good games probably isn't enough to lift Jimmy G past Brady because A. It's only 4 games.  B. Brady has accomplished a lot more then Bledsoe.

 

But it's certainly enough to let the coach hold it over his head and remind him that there is another guy on this team who's shown he can do the job, and he's a lot younger then you are.

Brady is not going anywhere till he cant play anymore or retires. Kraft will make that call not BB.

[crazycolt1]

He goes back to Brady, but it does give him enough leverage to make Brady feel uncomfortable.  

 

Sort of a Steve Young/Joe Montana thing. . . if you start having a cold streak, I can always just send in Jimmy.

 

Brady and Jimmy's relationship could be very contentious if this happened.  Brady knows he's 38 and they have a promising, game proven 23 year old sitting on the bench just waiting for his chance to do to Brady what Brady did to Bledsoe.  

Not at all like the Montana-Young thing. Walsh wanted his boy Young in and Montana got traded. Matter of fact Montana had to sue the 49ers to get the money owed to him. Montana did not leave the 49ers on good terms at all. Check the facts before assuming.

[HOZER]

Except that it's been well documented how crowd noise can influence a game...yet that isn't a serious offense? Heating balls up on the sideline illegally give less of an advantage as having an under inflated ball? 

 

The inconsistency to how the NFL views 'unfair advantages' and tries to make the case about how much one over the other affects the integrity of the game is very troubling to me.

Were the teams you are referencing caught and fined for cheating before? Did they interfere with any investigations? Any team or person that is caught breaking the rules to gain an advantage over an opponent should be charged accordingly....and if they are STUPID enough to cheat again, then the charges should be more extreme.

[NewColtsFan]

He goes back to Brady........

 

4 wins by Garrappalo doesn't mean Brady is done.    It means the Pats did a very nice job and were coached well.   And it means Garrappalo probably has a nice future.

 

But lets not get carried away.....    Brady still has lots left in the tank as the most recent Super Bowl clearly demonstrated.

 

It's Brady and this one is not hard to figure out....

[BloodyChamp]

Cassell went 11-5 and then was shipped to KC. Every Pats fan wants 4-0 assuming Brady even misses that many games. Go Jimmy!

And every Brady homer has been telling themselves that that was a fluke or that they lost all the tough games or somethimg. If that type of thing happens twice in the 2 times Brady has ever sat...

Go Jimmy my foot...if they lose a few games you'll gladly be using that as proof that Brady has won every single Pats game by himself.

[amfootball]

And every Brady homer has been telling themselves that that was a fluke or that they lost all the tough games or somethimg. If that type of thing happens twice in the 2 times Brady has ever sat...

Go Jimmy my foot...if they lose a few games you'll gladly be using that as proof that Brady has won every single Pats game by himself.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Cassell did a fine job BUT the Pats did miss the playoffs. I think the main take away from all Pats fans is that Pats will continue to be good/very good when Brady is retired but they have been extraordinary with him. Winning some regular season games really is not on the same planet as 4 rings, 3 SB MVPs,  and 21 post-season wins ...

[Valpo2004]

Brady is not going anywhere till he cant play anymore or retires. Kraft will make that call not BB.

 

I don't know BB has been GMing this team for a long time.  And BB has shown he has authority over Brady (made him take a knee with plenty of time left and timeouts after an int.)

 

I'm not saying that BB would make that call at all.  I'm saying that BB will use that to make Brady uncomfortable.. 

[Superman]

This isn't a casual fan's forum. I don't need to explain how 4-0 could be worse for Tom Brady than 0-4. It will be 1 or the other. 1-3, 3-1 or 2-2 would be to typical. Nothing like that happens in the NFL anymore, much to ESPN's joy lol!

 

FYI, your thread was merged.