Discussing the Patriots w/o Brady (merge)

[amfootball]

this has turned into the exact same conversation. We all knew you couldn't resist. I can only imagine the mayhem on patriots forums.

They have more stuff on the commish and Kraft. This board tends to be Brady obsessed.

[amfootball]

That's what I'm saying. He had to go by the current policy of the time, which only allowed for a first time offender to the conduct/behavior policy to be punished two games.

No. There was no such policy at all. Goodell was not bound by anything in his ruling. He believed 2 games fit the offense.

[amfootball]

The sad thing is Ray lost his whole career over one drunken night. He made a horrible mistake, his wife forgave him, but the piper had to be paid.

Because of this, all punishments are now much harsher than ever before. It's the new normal in the NFL.

He lost his career because what he did was on video. He would have lost only two games if the second video never existed and that is the poorest reflection of all on Goodell.

[jvan1973]

He lost his career because what he did was on video. He would have lost only two games if the second video never existed and that is the poorest reflection of all on Goodell.

Please do some research into the punishment players involved in domestic violence got before Goodell took office. He has been the most harsh commish in the history of the league.

[amfootball]

Please do some research into the punishment players involved in domestic violence got before Goodell took office. He has been the most harsh commish in the history of the league.

Just not with Rice apparently ... again inconsistent ...

[jvan1973]

They have more stuff on the commish and Kraft. This board tends to be Brady obsessed.

No, you are Brady obsessed. Most of your 10k posts on a colts board illustrates that fact

[jvan1973]

Just not with Rice apparently ... again inconsistent ...

He would have gotten nothing under previous commissioners

[pgt_rob]

Just not with Rice apparently ... again inconsistent ...

 

The dude doesn't play in the NFL anymore after this incident. What more do you want?

[amfootball]

The dude doesn't play in the NFL anymore after this incident. What more do you want?

That was only after the second video was aired. He would have played after 2 games has that video not aired.

[pgt_rob]

That was only after the second video was aired. He would have played after 2 games has that video not aired.

 

Ok. He isn't in the league anymore. That's his punishment.

[amfootball]

Ok. He isn't in the league anymore. That's his punishment.

You are missing the point. His initial punishment for what he did was two games and would have stood had the second video not surfaced forcing the league to suspend him indefinitely which was overturned because you can't punish a player twice for the same offense. And he is not out of the league right now, he just has not signed with a team yet.

[18Manning]

To comment on the subject of this post title, I don't think NE will have to play long without Brady. Brady/NE will buy their way out of this. I'd be willing to bet the suspension gets reduced to 2 games, if not less. However, no amount of money will polish away the tarnish.

[amfootball]

To comment on the subject of this post title, I don't think NE will have to play long without Brady. Brady/NE will buy their way out of this. I'd be willing to bet the suspension gets reduced to 2 games, if not less. However, no amount of money will polish away the tarnish.

I think there is a realistic chance that this whole thing gets over turn. Not sure if you saw Brady hired, Jeffrey Keesler to represent him and he has won many cases vs the NFL. I think if the Wells report is shown to be false in the process than Brady is vindicated to a large extent. There will always be the chatter like spygate but his appeal and what comes out of it is an important piece in terms of how he is ultimately perceived both short term and long term. And similar to spygate, if he continues to win he will quiet the chatter to a footnote ...

[bluebombers87]

He did. That was the subject of the texts between him and Jastremski. He was upset that the balls were at 16 psi for the Jets game as the refs added air to them and did not regauge which is common for them not to do as they don't care that much about whether they get it in the range or not. One of the texts has McNally telling Jastremski that he weighed the balls the next day and they were over 15 psi.

That's not the way I interpreted it. The jastremski guy said he checked a few of them and that they were at almost 16. That was on 10/17 which was a Friday. Not knowing when the game balls are delivered and prepped he could have been discussing the upcoming game. Either way it sounds like he got to them and possibly fixed it. Didn't say he played with them.

Of course this all could have been clarified if Kraft had allowed Wells to talk with Jastremski again.

[amfootball]

That's not the way I interpreted it. The jastremski guy said he checked a few of them and that they were at almost 16. That was on 10/17

Right. That is what I said. Except it was Jas not McNally that checked them. So the balls were inflated to that level by the refs and Brady played the whole game with them and that is what he was upset about.

[bluebombers87]

Right. That is what I said. Except it was Jas not McNally that checked them. So the balls were inflated to that level by the refs and Brady played the whole game with them and that is what he was upset about.

Sorry it submitted before I could finish. Re-read my updated post.

[18Manning]

I think there is a realistic chance that this whole thing gets over turn. Not sure if you saw Brady hired, Jeffrey Keesler to represent him and he has won many cases vs the NFL. I think if the Wells report is shown to be false in the process than Brady is vindicated to a large extent. There will always be the chatter like spygate but his appeal and what comes out of it is an important piece in terms of how he is ultimately perceived both short term and long term. And similar to spygate, if he continues to win he will quiet the chatter to a footnote ...

 

Murderers and felons get away with crimes if they spend enough money on lawyers. That doesn't make them innocent. It only points to the fact there's no "smoking gun". I don't think this will be only a footnote.

[amfootball]

Sorry it submitted before I could finish. Re-read my updated post.

I am not sure I follow your premise. How could Jas have fixed them when they were at 16 psi after the game? Or are you saying that for the AFCCG McNally may have thought Walt inflated past 12.5 psi and then decided to deflate? I would buy that as I think that is realistic if the balls were in fact tampered with in the bathroom.

[bluebombers87]

I think there is a realistic chance that this whole thing gets over turn. Not sure if you saw Brady hired, Jeffrey Keesler to represent him and he has won many cases vs the NFL. I think if the Wells report is shown to be false in the process than Brady is vindicated to a large extent. There will always be the chatter like spygate but his appeal and what comes out of it is an important piece in terms of how he is ultimately perceived both short term and long term. And similar to spygate, if he continues to win he will quiet the chatter to a footnote ...

Only in Boston. Everywhere else will know Brady cheated and then tried to cover it up by lying and refusing to cooperate. Which if you're ok with then that's that. Just know it's not the sentiment the majority of the NFL will share.

[amfootball]

Murderers and felons get away with crimes if they spend enough money on lawyers. That doesn't make them innocent. It only points to the fact there's no "smoking gun". I don't think this will be only a footnote.

True but there is much here for a legal team to tear into. I don't think Kessler will have to do much except to point out what is in the report and also what is missing from the report in terms of Tom's testimony. There is very little to punish Brady to the extent the league did.

[amfootball]

Only in Boston. Everywhere else will know Brady cheated and then tried to cover it up by lying and refusing to cooperate. Which if you're ok with then that's that. Just know it's not the sentiment the majority of the NFL will share.

I agree but I think that was the narrative before this with spygate and the overall feelings about Belichick. I would never expect that to change anyways.

[bluebombers87]

I am not sure I follow your premise. How could Jas have fixed them when they were at 16 psi after the game? Or are you saying that for the AFCCG McNally may have thought Walt inflated past 12.5 psi and then decided to deflate? I would buy that as I think that is realistic if the balls were in fact tampered with in the bathroom.

The premise is it was never stated the balls that were at 16 were used in the game. Could have been fixed by Jastremski. Could have been balls for the next game.

Issue is no one will know since Kraft refused to cooperate even though he said he would and then threw a hissy fit when the league punished him accordingly.

[amfootball]

The premise is it was never stated the balls that were at 16 were used in the game. Could have been fixed by Jastremski. Could have been balls for the next game.

Issue is no one will know since Kraft refused to cooperate even though he said he would and then threw a hissy fit when the league punished him accordingly.

I really don't follow. Why would Jas tamper and inflate the balls to 16 when Brady likes them at 12.5? And the report never refuted that the balls used were at 16.

[bluebombers87]

True but there is much here for a legal team to tear into. I don't think Kessler will have to do much except to point out what is in the report and also what is missing from the report in terms of Tom's testimony. There is very little to punish Brady to the extent the league did.

And why isn't there much testimony? Because Brady refused to cooperate, hence the punishment. He pled the 5th but that doesn't protect him from any punishment.

[18Manning]

True but there is much here for a legal team to tear into. I don't think Kessler will have to do much except to point out what is in the report and also what is missing from the report in terms of Tom's testimony. There is very little to punish Brady to the extent the league did.

 

I agree, there are potential holes. Holes that might have been filled with Brady's cooperation. In view of most outside of NE, that's reason enough to suggest guilt.

[bluebombers87]

I really don't follow. Why would Jas tamper and inflate the balls to 16 when Brady likes them at 12.5? And the report never refuted that the balls used were at 16.

And the report never said he played with the balls at 16psi. Jastremski could have fixed them before the game.

[amfootball]

And why isn't there much testimony? Because Brady refused to cooperate, hence the punishment. He pled the 5th but that doesn't protect him from any punishment.

He spoke with them for hours. The only he did not do was hand over his private phone. Hours of his testimony are missing but I am sure that will come out in the appeal and his phone will be searched as well.

[amfootball]

I agree, there are potential holes. Holes that might have been filled with Brady's cooperation. In view of most outside of NE, that's reason enough to suggest guilt.

I guess we will see but all he did not do was hand over his phone. He spoke with them for hours and none of that was included in the report.

[amfootball]

And the report never said he played with the balls at 16psi. Jastremski could have fixed them before the game.

You are not making sense. Brady likes them at 12.5. There is no way Jas would inflate them. In fact, he says to McNally, the refs screwed us. And again, the report never refutes that the balls were at the level and Wells did in fact interview the ref from that game but did not include his testimony.

[bluebombers87]

He spoke with them for hours. The only he did not do was hand over his private phone. Hours of his testimony are missing but I am sure that will come out in the appeal and his phone will be searched as well.

Again, Wells offered Brady to hand over the content, not the phone. This has been told to you many times. Please pay attention.

Brady wouldn't even give Wells basically a copy of the texts pertinent to the case? Why would he not? Surely if he were innocent he would have no problems. I think it's because he didn't know what texts Wells already had and ran the risk of sending tampered conversations which would implicate hiding something. He decided not to give anything over hoping he could bluff/bully his way out of it.

[18Manning]

I guess we will see but all he did not do was hand over his phone. He spoke with them for hours and none of that was included in the report.

 

"all he did was not hand over his phone"? A phone that might have included evidence against him. I can speak to anyone for hours telling them what I want them to hear. From what I understand, he didn't even have to actually hand over his phone. NFL would allow his attorneys to go through the phone. He was uncooperative regarding the phone. If there's nothing there, then hand it over.

[bluebombers87]

You are not making sense. Brady likes them at 12.5. There is no way Jas would inflate them. In fact, he says to McNally, the refs screwed us. And again, the report never refutes that the balls were at the level and Wells did in fact interview the ref from that game but did not include his testimony.

Why would I use the term fixed to mean inflate them to 16? I'm well aware Brady likes his balls soft. His guys "fixing them" should mean to take them to the way Brady likes them.

[Gramz]

He should take his punishment and move on.

 

If further investigation comes from the appeal,  more evidence may emerge and he could possibly get more punishment.  NO..???

 

I believe it could happen.

[amfootball]

"all he did was not hand over his phone"? A phone that might have included evidence against him. I can speak to anyone for hours telling them what I want them to hear. From what I understand, he didn't even have to actually hand over his phone. NFL would allow his attorneys to go through the phone. He was uncooperative regarding the phone. If there's nothing there, then hand it over.

I think he will hand it over at the appeal. His agent made it pretty clear that as a member of the union and to protect his privacy, Brady did not hand over this phone. And as you say, he was under no legal obligation to do so and any legal representative would have advised him not to do so. So, the league can try to ding him for being uncooperative but they had the ball boys phones with his texts and hours of testimony from him.

[bluebombers87]

I think he will hand it over at the appeal. His agent made it pretty clear that as a member of the union and to protect his privacy, Brady did not hand over this phone. And as you say, he was under no legal obligation to do so and any legal representative would have advised him not to do so. So, the league can try to ding him for being uncooperative but they had the ball boys phones with his texts and hours of testimony from him.

Except he didn't have to hand his phone over, just the content.

Are you willfully ignoring this?

[pgt_rob]

You are missing the point. His initial punishment for what he did was two games and would have stood had the second video not surfaced forcing the league to suspend him indefinitely which was overturned because you can't punish a player twice for the same offense. And he is not out of the league right now, he just has not signed with a team yet.

 

lol anyways... There's video of patriot ball boys taking the footballs into the bathroom when they weren't suppose to so......... They wouldn't do that without a reason from Mr. Brady.

[amfootball]

Except he didn't have to hand his phone over, just the content.

Are you willfully ignoring this?

What sense would that make? Let me hand over content that you will construe to make me look guilty because you have zero understanding of football culture? No one would do that with a firm being hired by the league to find guilt. Like I said, I fully expect him to hand it over at the appeal. He would not do the appeal if he felt his phone records proved his guilt in any way. I mean I think that is obvious. He wants an objective, legal authority looking at his phone.

[bluebombers87]

What sense would that make? Let me hand over content that you will construe to make me look guilty because you have zero understanding of football culture? No one would do that with a firm being hired by the league to find guilt. Like I said, I fully expect him to hand it over at the appeal. He would not do the appeal if he felt his phone records proved his guilt in any way. I mean I think that is obvious. He wants an objective, legal authority looking at his phone.

His lawyers would screen it first. You think they could misconstrue that even with a legal team signing off on it? If Wells did try all Brady would have to do is show the original content and boom goes the dynamite. Really no risk at all by handing over only what he wanted.

That's some pretty serious reaching.

[18Manning]

True but there is much here for a legal team to tear into. I don't think Kessler will have to do much except to point out what is in the report and also what is missing from the report in terms of Tom's testimony. There is very little to punish Brady to the extent the league did.

 

Neither you, nor I know what is missing from the report. We're both drawing conclusions based on what has been provided to the public so far. Apparently, there was enough evidence to suggest guilt. Hence the suspension, fines, loss of draft picks. Even someone guilty of a crime can often buy their way out if they spend enough money. That's exactly what will happen here. But, this won't be a "footnote". NE/Brady will always be associated with cheating, right or wrong. The world isn't out to get NE or Brady. They've been caught doing things they weren't supposed to do. That's no one's fault but NE/Brady.

[amfootball]

FYI - no more posts on this from me unless this thread gets back to topic on the Pats potentially playing without Brady. I said yesterday I would stay off the deflategate thread and this one has pretty much turned into that so I am not avoiding you. Please PM if you would like to continue to discuss. I do not want to upset posters even though the convo here has been respectful and informatiive on both sides. I appreciate that.