Has Vontae's poor play recently made him cheaper for next offseason?

[MaoBerry]

What are we looking at, if we decide to re-sign him? I'm thinking 4 yrs-22 million.

[Lucky Charm]

Had to think who V.D. was. We'll definitely try to resign him. For what... that's up to Vontae and his agent.

[MaoBerry]

Had to think who V.D. was. We definitely resign him. For what... that's up to Vontae and his agent.

 

 

Sorry, i often do that, just to shorten things up.  I thought most would get the jist of it.

[Dustin]

Nope. If he doesn't get paid what he wants here, then I'm sure another team would be willing to pay.

Look for something along the lines of 4 year $28 milion.

[Le Neon]

If he has a good game this week his value goes up tremendously. He definitely hurt himself this month though.

[Dustin]

And TBH he's really only had 2 "bad" games all season. @Houston and vs St. Louis.

[PrincetonTiger]

A little higher

[MaoBerry]

Nope. If he doesn't get paid what he wants here, then I'm sure another team would be willing to pay.

Look for something along the lines of 4 year $28 milion.

 

 

I could  agree with that, but no higher though. That's sounds about right for a top 10 CB.

[21isSuperman]

Had to think who V.D. was. We'll definitely try to resign him. For what... that's up to Vontae and his agent.

 

 

Sorry, i often do that, just to shorten things up.  I thought most would get the jist of it.

Title adjusted to avoid confusion

[MaoBerry]

Title adjusted to avoid confusion

 

 

Thanks and sorry about that. My tablet is so slow, so i often shorten names.

[esmort]

Nope. If he doesn't get paid what he wants here, then I'm sure another team would be willing to pay.

Look for something along the lines of 4 year $28 milion.

 

I think that is the lowest we can hope to get him for ...  it will likely be a bit higher.

[bestQBever]

I'd be happy giving him 8-9 million a year.

[GoColts8818]

Maybe slightly but probably not, NFL GMs are pretty smart and know to look at the whole package not just one bad stretch of games. 

[bap1331]

It really depends these days whether he's interested in the money or championships..

Revis said that he doesn't care playing for a bad team unless he gets good money... Idk why but that's what he said

[Dustin]

It really depends these days whether he's interested in the money or championships..

Revis said that he doesn't care playing for a bad team unless he gets good money... Idk why but that's what he said

Im sure this is true for he majority of players in he NFL.

[Franklin County]

I hope we can afford to keep him as a Colt.

[lollygagger8]

[ColtJ82]

CBs tend to get overpaid on the open market. I am more concerned with how Davis will play after he gets paid. He sometimes has a "give up" mentality which may get worse once he gets his contract

[Valpo2004]

I could  agree with that, but no higher though. That's sounds about right for a top 10 CB.

 

I'm not sold that he's top 10 my any means.  He's too inconsistent.  One day he plays like the best CB in the game, then the next he's barely much of an upgrade over Cassius Vaughn.  

[HeSoColt]

As a fanbase, we can only hope. 

 

He is by far the best CB that we have on the roster and I think the secondary takes a HUGE hit if we lose him.

 

I am thinking 4 years 26-28 million.

[CR91]

I cant see vontae wanting anything less then 5 year 45 million

[Iancolts]

Vontae is a really good DB but I think we should cut him lose if he wants too much. We can draft a DB or sign someone else in FA cause I don't think VD is worth 5 years 45 mill

[chad72]

I cant see vontae wanting anything less then 5 year 45 million

 

I agree. That is what I expect him to want as well. But wanting it and getting what you want are always different.

 

However, the 4 yr. $30 mil. or 5 yr. $40 mil. might be all that the Colts might want to give him. It would be closer to the deal Keenan Lewis got from the Saints after being stellar with the Steelers during his rookie contract.

[In Luck We Trust]

even if we think his price would be lower, another team will give him 30 million to snag him. he is young so that helps him too. 

[NewColtsFan]

By the theory of the Law of Supply and Demand,  Vontae may get a contract offer from some team that's higher than his play would warrant.     Good cornerbacks are in strong demand.

 

I'd love to get him in the $7-8 Mill per range...  but fear it could go higher.

 

We gave up a 2nd round pick for him,  so we've already committed a lot to him.   It'll takes guts to let him go to another team

 

This will be fascinating to watch how it plays out this off-season.....

[ColtsBlueFL]

I think body of work has more clout than a couple game stretch.  A player can easily point at a minor injury hampering his game.  But if it is large scale injury and/or recover from surgery that affects the money somewhat. Davis is who he is.  A top talent that isn't always 100%  plugged in.  Someone will pay him well. Not sure it will be the Colts either.

[Superman]

I think there are plenty of solid corners at Vontae's level available next season. Some are overrating him after that Broncos game. He's at best a B level corner, until he puts together a long stretch of A level play.

 

http://overthecap.com/freeagents.php?Position=CB&Year=2014

 

Grimes, Talib, Shields, Jenkins, Cason, Munnerlyn, Cook, Young, Crocker, Marshall, Carr, Verner, Wright, Rodgers-Cromartie, etc., will all be on the market.

 

Based on last year, there were several corners at Vontae's level (or above) that were free agents, and none of them got more than $6m/year. Cary Williams was expected to break the bank, something like $9-10m/year. He turned down three years, $15m from the Ravens before the 2012 season, then had a strong second half of the season. Wound up taking three years, $17m from the Eagles.

 

You have to go back to 2011, the first year of the new CBA, to see big money for cornerbacks in free agency. Last year was a weird free agency, but with the cap expected to increase only modestly, I doubt this year will be any different. You'll see a bunch of guys strike out trying to get big money, then sign on reasonable deals (Talib, Andre Smith, Avril, etc.) Some top tier guys will cash in, but the market is suppressed, whether artificially or not. 

 

I don't see Vontae Davis making more than $7-8m a year, and I think that's generous. I said in another thread that I think four years, $30m ought to do it. Someone else said five years, $50m. I think that's too much.

[coltsfanatic24]

Shields, Talib, and Grimes should all be in the 5 year 50 mil range. Verner and Vontae won't get that much but their the best CB's available after the first three. I think Vontae will sign for 5 years 40 mil.

[Superman]

Shields, Talib, and Grimes should all be in the 5 year 50 mil range. Verner and Vontae won't get that much but their the best CB's available after the first three. I think Vontae will sign for 5 years 40 mil.

 

Talib and Grimes both signed one year deals for $5 and $5.5m, respectively. I don't see how you get to long term deals at $10m/year for either of them, just one year later. Not with the other corners available, and with the low cost of high draft picks. I'm 99% certain the Pats won't pay Talib that kind of money. The Dolphins can't afford that for Grimes, not without creating space. Shields won't get that from the Packers.

 

So they have to go to a new team, that could probably sign two B level guys at half the price, way less bonus and guaranteed. I don't see it happening. Even if, they're better than Davis.

 

There are some teams with some big money available next season. The Raiders have been discussed. Some of these guys will make big money, but I think these projections are out of whack. And talking about the Raiders, Reggie McKenzie is a Packers' guy, in a region full of A's fans. I don't see him throwing that kind of money around, especially not for a corner. I think he'd take much more of a Moneyball approach.

[coltsfanatic24]

Talib and Grimes both signed one year deals for $5 and $5.5m, respectively. I don't see how you get to long term deals at $10m/year for either of them, just one year later. Not with the other corners available, and with the low cost of high draft picks. I'm 99% certain the Pats won't pay Talib that kind of money. The Dolphins can't afford that for Grimes, not without creating space. Shields won't get that from the Packers.

 

So they have to go to a new team, that could probably sign two B level guys at half the price, way less bonus and guaranteed. I don't see it happening. Even if, they're better than Davis.

 

There are some teams with some big money available next season. The Raiders have been discussed. Some of these guys will make big money, but I think these projections are out of whack. And talking about the Raiders, Reggie McKenzie is a Packers' guy, in a region full of A's fans. I don't see him throwing that kind of money around, especially not for a corner. I think he'd take much more of a Moneyball approach.

 I don't think the Packers or Pats will resign Shields or Talib  but i could see the Dolphins paying Grimes 9-10 mil, he's been that valuable to their team. Drew Rosenhaus is Shields agent and he got 5 year 50 mil for both Finnegan and Carr. The Raiders, Chargers, and Vikings all rank bottom 7th in pass defense that's where Shields and Talib will probably go.

[Superman]

 I don't think the Packers or Pats will resign Shields or Talib  but i could see the Dolphins paying Grimes 9-10 mil, he's been that valuable to their team. Drew Rosenhaus is Shields agent and he got 5 year 50 mil for both Finnegan and Carr. The Raiders, Chargers, and Vikings all rank bottom 7th in pass defense that's where Shields and Talib will probably go.

 

I forgot about Carr and Finnegan. They were Year 2 signings in the new CBA. 

 

Still, there was a major market shift last year. In some cases, it's almost like owners and GMs completely disregarded the contract precedents of the last two seasons. Not just at cornerback, but at a bunch of positions. Whether it was a full correction or not, time will tell. But I mostly expect contracts to stay suppressed.

 

Bigger thing is that I don't think Davis is on that tier, to begin with.

[CanuckColt]

 I don't think the Packers or Pats will resign Shields or Talib  but i could see the Dolphins paying Grimes 9-10 mil, he's been that valuable to their team. Drew Rosenhaus is Shields agent and he got 5 year 50 mil for both Finnegan and Carr. The Raiders, Chargers, and Vikings all rank bottom 7th in pass defense that's where Shields and Talib will probably go.

You are talking about guys that Vontae cannot hold a candle to anymore.

He had 3 to 5 games where he looked like a shutdown corner and has regressed to the average minus CB who everyone said he was before we got him. How do we tell who the real Vontae is?

We cannot afford to give this guy a huge multi-year payday and have him play like he is now.

If he wants big bucks, let him go.

[21isSuperman]

Thanks and sorry about that. My tablet is so slow, so i often shorten names.

Not a problem!

[oldunclemark]

Cant knee jerk every couple of weeks..

 

We need Vontae Davis..and he's had a good year

[dw49]

I forgot about Carr and Finnegan. They were Year 2 signings in the new CBA. 

 

Still, there was a major market shift last year. In some cases, it's almost like owners and GMs completely disregarded the contract precedents of the last two seasons. Not just at cornerback, but at a bunch of positions. Whether it was a full correction or not, time will tell. But I mostly expect contracts to stay suppressed.

 

Bigger thing is that I don't think Davis is on that tier, to begin with.

  More specifically many thought it was more collusion than "disregard for contract precedents." As you touched on... the market for CB's just simply "disintegrated." from 10 mill per in 2012 to players signing 1 year deals for 5 mill. It will be interesting to see what transpires in 2014. It helps the Colts a bit that Grimes and Talib did end up signing these "wait and see deals."

[Superman]

  More specifically many thought it was more collusion than "disregard for contract precedents." As you touched on... the market for CB's just simply "disintegrated." from 10 mill per in 2012 to players signing 1 year deals for 5 mill. It will be interesting to see what transpires in 2014. It helps the Colts a bit that Grimes and Talib did end up signing these "wait and see deals."

 

I don't think it was collusion. I think it was a wave of frugality sweeping the league all at once (for the most part, anyway). There were still plenty of players getting big contracts, just the "above average but not elite" group that wasn't being paid like they were elite, whereas that group had been overpaid in previous free agency periods. With the new CBA and a better understanding of how draft picks were being paid, and a relatively flat cap, it made sense to me.

 

The claims of collusion mostly came from older players who probably overestimated their market to begin with. Guys like Dwight Freeney who had previously been the highest paid in the league, now being knocked down to less than half of their previous yearly average. I think there would be more smoking guns if there was actual collusion.

 

Whatever the reason, I hope it keeps up. Like you say, it's good for the Colts at this point.

[dw49]

I don't think it was collusion. I think it was a wave of frugality sweeping the league all at once (for the most part, anyway). There were still plenty of players getting big contracts, just the "above average but not elite" group that wasn't being paid like they were elite, whereas that group had been overpaid in previous free agency periods. With the new CBA and a better understanding of how draft picks were being paid, and a relatively flat cap, it made sense to me.

 

The claims of collusion mostly came from older players who probably overestimated their market to begin with. Guys like Dwight Freeney who had previously been the highest paid in the league, now being knocked down to less than half of their previous yearly average. I think there would be more smoking guns if there was actual collusion.

 

Whatever the reason, I hope it keeps up. Like you say, it's good for the Colts at this point.

 

 

Yes DF was upset to say the least . Funny thing is that he did look to be a huge bargain before he was hurt. Frugal ? Collusion ? Dunno but other than that first wave of free agency , the market did crumble for sure. Take Cliff Avril. Turned down 3 years at 30 mill and signs two years for 13 with a lousy 5 mill signing bonus. Besides that his 1st year base was 1.5 and the second year 7 mill. So Seattle gets huge "bust" protection to boot.

[Superman]

Yes DF was upset to say the least . Funny thing is that he did look to be a huge bargain before he was hurt. Frugal ? Collusion ? Dunno but other than that first wave of free agency , the market did crumble for sure. Take Cliff Avril. Turned down 3 years at 30 mill and signs two years for 13 with a lousy 5 mill signing bonus. Besides that his 1st year base was 1.5 and the second year 7 mill. So Seattle gets huge "bust" protection to boot.

 

Yup, Avril has always been the big one that is hard to explain. But what has me leaning away from collusion is the competitive nature of the league. Plenty of teams that could have used a 4-3 pass rusher like Avril, and could have offered him a similarly structured deal for $16-18m. Still would have been strange, given the deal he turned down and his reported demands (somewhere north of $10m/year), but not as weird as what he signed for. You know what I mean? I can't imagine these teams with a chance at contending ignoring a guy like that, despite being able to get him at a big discount. On top of that, he signed with a team that already had plenty of pass rushers, and he wasn't expected to be a starter. Really weird. Only two things I can figure is that either he's that rare FA in his prime who took significantly less to play for a contender, or there's some red flag that no one reported, but is widely known around the league.

[MaoBerry]

If davis demands more than 4 yr/30 million, i would pass on him personally. He's not elite, just yet.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Superman
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[dw49]

Yup, Avril has always been the big one that is hard to explain. But what has me leaning away from collusion is the competitive nature of the league. Plenty of teams that could have used a 4-3 pass rusher like Avril, and could have offered him a similarly structured deal for $16-18m. Still would have been strange, given the deal he turned down and his reported demands (somewhere north of $10m/year), but not as weird as what he signed for. You know what I mean? I can't imagine these teams with a chance at contending ignoring a guy like that, despite being able to get him at a big discount. On top of that, he signed with a team that already had plenty of pass rushers, and he wasn't expected to be a starter. Really weird. Only two things I can figure is that either he's that rare FA in his prime who took significantly less to play for a contender, or there's some red flag that no one reported, but is widely known around the league.

 

 

​I kind of doubt the collusion thing too , just pointing out how strange that off season appeared to be. I brought up the collusion as it was at the least hinted at. I think the deal with Avril might have been teams felt that Lion D line was so good that Avril was benefiting from great push up the middle.