Irsay speaks about the Oakland game...Demands better

[buccolts]

I forgot all about that Robert Mathis tweet. Perfect example. People are just too used to the old era where we beat people before we even hit halftime. Times have changed

 

It's been an awfully long time since this was true. Like 8 - 9 years.

 

I think we all confuse the knowing that we can always (and did) come back and beat anyone, regardless of how far down we were (confident, cocky, spoiled).

 

Now, if that is more in reference to something like 'we beat people with half our brains tied behind our backs' kinda thing, well.... yeah.

But it's been quite a while since we practiced blowing people out on a regular basis.

[braveheartcolt]

Wanting a good o-line and actually getting one are two different things entirely. We drafted 3 Centres one year and blew a first rounder on Ugoh. I love how we chuck in stellar linemen's names after they've proved themselves. It's a competency issue rather than a lack of desire.

[cmgww]

My opinion is, this is a show for the fans. He probably addressed what he said in the tweet in private and then told them that he would tweet it out to placate the fanbase...a bit of grandstanding? Sure. But that's my take on it. He paid big money to shore up the o line and saw what is thought to be the worst NFL team clobber our o line most of the game. I think the coaches are well aware of the mistakes that were made, and the issues that need to be resolved. I do agree that he probably should keep it off social media...but I think Irsay is crazy like a fox. Long ago he relinquished GM duties to others more capable. We've only had two non playoff seasons since 1999! (2001 and 2011).

That said, I am tired of the comments about Irsay being "drunk, drug addict, etc." that are posted on other sites, and sometimes here. Irsay has been sober since 2000, and I know "people who know people" that can confirm this. I won't get into details but they are doctors. Irsay had his addiction issues in the late 1990s and that is no secret. But the constant comparisons to his father (who was a heavy drinker) just make my blood boil.

[superrep1967]

He is leaving the coaching to the coaches. Since when is tweeting considered coaching? Secondly, he is the owner and can say whatever he wants. If I was the owner, I would demand better too. Maybe it's you who needs to be quiet.

Exactly!

[Jules]

You know it's really not a big deal....

[superrep1967]

My opinion is, this is a show for the fans. He probably addressed what he said in the tweet in private and then told them that he would tweet it out to placate the fanbase...a bit of grandstanding? Sure. But that's my take on it. He paid big money to shore up the o line and saw what is thought to be the worst NFL team clobber our o line most of the game. I think the coaches are well aware of the mistakes that were made, and the issues that need to be resolved. I do agree that he probably should keep it off social media...but I think Irsay is crazy like a fox. Long ago he relinquished GM duties to others more capable. We've only had two non playoff seasons since 1999! (2001 and 2011).

That said, I am tired of the comments about Irsay being "drunk, drug addict, etc." that are posted on other sites, and sometimes here. Irsay has been sober since 2000, and I know "people who know people" that can confirm this. I won't get into details but they are doctors. Irsay had his addiction issues in the late 1990s and that is no secret. But the constant comparisons to his father (who was a heavy drinker) just make my blood boil.

I agree!!

[GoColts8818]

You know it's really not a big deal....

ssssssh we are too busy over reacting to use logic right now...

[superrep1967]

Ok...I actually read every post and enjoyed both sides of the argument!!

 

I am on Jim irsay's side on this one.  He cranked out $40 million on free agents he has high expectations for them.  He more than anybody respects this team from waterboy to Reggie Wayne.  I am not a twitter tweet, but it is so 'household' now it bothers me none whatsoever.

 

Who was in the locker room after the game clapping at Pagano's awesome 'positive' speech?  Irsay!! (And Grigs)  These guys are willing to do ANYTHING to make OUR team better.  We should all be thrilled and just root them on...going into last year?  WOW I was worried.  Lets kick some Dolphin TAIL this week!!!  I know Irsay will be in the locker room regardless of a W or L...It is a family!      !!!!!

 

He actually spent 140 million

[jvan1973]

Wanting a good o-line and actually getting one are two different things entirely. We drafted 3 Centres one year and blew a first rounder on Ugoh. I love how we chuck in stellar linemen's names after they've proved themselves. It's a competency issue rather than a lack of desire.

ugoh was a second round pick

[GoColts8818]

ugoh was a second round pick

yeah but we traded a first rounder for him so you can argue he did cost us a first round pick.

[ColtStrong]

[jvan1973]

yeah but we traded a first rounder for him so you can argue he did cost us a first round pick.

true, i forgot about that

[Superman]

yeah but we traded a first rounder for him so you can argue he did cost us a first round pick.

 

 

true, i forgot about that

 

And the first pick in the following year was Mike Pollak.

[braveheartcolt]

true, i forgot about that

See, we do know a little about your game over here in Europe! We are not all soccer hooligans.

[GoColts8818]

And the first pick in the following year was Mike Pollak.

I've always said Ugoh cost us three draft picks, the pick we used to take him, the pick we traded to get him the following year and the pick we had to use to replace him.  He is the single biggest draft mistake Polian ever made.  Bigger than Jerry Hughes, bigger than Donald Brown, and yes bigger than Gonzo because all those picks only cost us one draft pick and Ugoh rivals even Cory Simon as his biggest mistake in general.

[braveheartcolt]

Polian's biggest error was his son. Then quitting on perfection. Ugoh, yep, number 3.

[GoColts8818]

Polian's biggest error was his son. Then quitting on perfection. Ugoh, yep, number 3.

people WANT quitting on perfection to be a bigger error than it was. That team still lost the Super Bowl for reason unrelated to the Jets game over a month before it.

[Jules]

Not sure if this was already mentioned but after we crapped the bed vs. the Bills in preseason the team was MUCH MUCH better against the Giants/Browns. Yes it was only preseason but they looked good enough to make much of this forum pleased.

 

If we get the same results vs. the Dolphins then Irsay might know what he is doing after all.....;)

 

He knows what this team can do and how good they can be. Sure we won the game but he does not want to see them get complacent either IMO. The Dolphins/Raiders games I always felt were games we should win at home.

[braveheartcolt]

people WANT quitting on perfection to be a bigger error than it was. That team still lost the Super Bowl for reason unrelated to the Jets game over a month before it.

Since when are you the voice of all fans. I understand your stance on it, but others see it differently, including me. And it was not just about winning the SB, it was a kick in the teeth to the people who keep the club alive. Pointless going back and forth on this again, we've got the scars from previous debates.

[colts8718]

Go Jim rather have an owner who cares and states the obvious. Come on PAGANO have your team ready  even Jim Caldwell is making you look bad never thought I would say that GO IRSAY

[GoColts8818]

Since when are you the voice of all fans. I understand your stance on it, but others see it differently, including me. And it was not just about winning the SB, it was a kick in the teeth to the people who keep the club alive. Pointless going back and forth on this again, we've got the scars from previous debates.

i never said I was the voice of all fans so please don't put words in my mouth. I gave my opinion on it and I base it off the following. The perfect season debacle happened almost five years ago and it still comes up a lot. So based on that I think it's important to people. However, if you look at the end result it was not as important as people tend to treat it because that team would not have gone undefeated anyways. They still lost the Super Bowl making the Jets game and the pursuit of perfection moot. People tend to over look that when they bring it up thus I feel people want it to be a bigger mistake than it turned out to be because they were so angered by it. If we are talking about mistakes that hurt the team on the field and lead to Polan getting fired, which I was when I brought up Ugoh, then losing the Jets in 09 does not rate high on that list. That's not what got him fired. Not having enough talent and not winning games got him fired. Now if you want to talk about a list of things Polian did that angered the fan base while he was here clearly the Jets game in 09 goes to the top of the list. However, just as we saw with releasing Peyton Manning just because something is wildly unpopular doesn't alone make it a bad move from a football perspective.

Also note just because I don't agree with your opinion on something does not mean I am trying to be the voice of the fans. It just means we disagree.

[Gavin]

It is one thing when you O lineman gets beat,  It's totally another when your o lineman 'allows' an uncontested shot on you QB!  Someone explain this sequence please-

 

Pic one, our left guard pulls, head toward right guard... on a potential PA fake-

 

 

Now Satele has to slide over... oops too late...

 

 

Satele: crud, maybe I can tackle him before he kills Luck!  (please ref, don't throw the yellow laundry, please....)

 

 

Luck delivers a great pass to Allen who then scores a TD on it.  Luck simultaneously gets planted deep into the field turf.  Good gosh we need help!!  This is what is happening even on our TD plays?  We were a little lucky the play (D) wasn't called back, because tackling a D lineman from behind can't be a legal blocking technique. This is just poor play, pure and simple.

 

 

So Jim spends big bux, expects more, and sees stuff like this.  And knows Miami and SF upcoming. But he needs to shut off the twitter?  He's not calling out (yet) he's just asking for better.  Quickly. As we all are.

How did you those those screen shots on here

[ColtsBlueFL]

How did you those those screen shots on here

Umm... the link image button?  Now back to the original Q, what was the purpose of that nearly epic fail of a blocking scheme?  O scheme experts, any ideas?

[Blueblazes]

Um, ok.  You joined the discussion late and clearly missed some posts.  But my biggest point to your post would be that an offensive line has more responsibility than just to run block.

 

 

I didn't ask which players put up elite numbers, I asked which players were actually "elite"...as in top 5-7 of their position.  I'll give you Vernon Davis and Boldin is borderline.  Why were these guys able to put up elite numbers?  Because they play behind great offensive lines.

 

You are spot on right. Offensive lines control a tremendous amount of the game at every level of football. It's not just a cliche that "games are won and lost in the trenches". Yes, the NFL has changed and continues to evolve and it's a QB's league more than ever, but O lines control a tremendous amount of the success or failure of a team.

[Hoosierdome93]

Irsay owns the team and pays their salaries which means hes the boss. Im pretty sure if my boss thought I wasn't doing my job he would express his opinion.

besides we all know the COLTS 1st game of the season was scary.

we watched a rookie on a  Raiders team that was ranked last in the league almost take that game from us.

Any words Irsay said were well deserved for a large part of the team.

That was last week though..Im sure they took that game as a wake up call and will pick up their game

 

GO COLTS

[Jason_]

Irsay owns the team and pays their salaries which means hes the boss. Im pretty sure if my boss thought I wasn't doing my job he would express his opinion.

besides we all know the COLTS 1st game of the season was scary.

we watched a rookie on a  Raiders team that was ranked last in the league almost take that game from us.

Any words Irsay said were well deserved for a large part of the team.

That was last week though..Im sure they took that game as a wake up call and will pick up their game

 

GO COLTS

 

Of course he would, but would he do that by talking to you about it face to face or by posting a memo on the bulletin board where the entire company, clients/customers included, could see? ;)

[BrentMc11]

He actually spent 140 million

I forgot a 1....my bad....I was a terrible accountant.  Can someone send me a pizza to prison?  No anchovies please Room 26.

 

[VanDolPhan]

I recall Donald Thomas' time with us.  A fine run blocker but the team gave up on him because of his pass protection.   Has he improved there?  I didn't watch your first game so I'm curious as to who is giving up the pressure on Luck?

[Jason_]

I recall Donald Thomas' time with us.  A fine run blocker but the team gave up on him because of his pass protection.   Has he improved there?  I didn't watch your first game so I'm curious as to who is giving up the pressure on Luck?

 

Actually Donald Thomas gave up a few pressures up the middle when he was one on one against Pat Sims.  He definitely seemed to do a much better job in run blocking than pass protection.  Hopefully this improves.

[Hoosierdome93]

Of course he would, but would he do that by talking to you about it face to face or by posting a memo on the bulletin board where the entire company, clients/customers included, could see? ;)

I look at it as not singling out individuals. Its only the first game. Its more like a you know who you are speech to all so lets tighten it up.

[Larry Horseman]

I disagree with the bolded part and the jets are a very poor example because their issues are easily the result of their QB situation.  A top tier QB and a dominant OL though can make marginal skill players look better.  I'm not saying to spend every penny on the OL and then bring in scrubs at skill positions.  I also never said you needed 5 pro bowlers on the OL.  However, I would rather have multiple pro bowlers on the OL as opposed to multiple pro bowlers at skill positions (I consider skill positions to be WR, TE and RBs).

 

 

Personally I would put the order of importance as:

 

QB > OL > Skill players

 

Yes, a dominant QB and top tier skill players can make a poor OL look better, at least as far as WR's and TE's go, so long as they are on the same page, make adjustments pre-snap and the QB gets rid of the ball very quickly.  On the other hand, a dominant QB and a dominant OL can also make marginal skill players look better because the OL gives the QB enough time to allow the marginal WRs/TEs to eventually get free.  the dominant OL will also make the running game easier, which allows for play action, which also will make the jobs of the skill players easier.

 

We had a dominant QB and a good OC for many years and we got one SB out of it.  

 

I would say QB>Skill Players>OL. It's probably a chicken/egg question that is nearly impossible to answer and comes down to team building preference. The ideal is obviously having all three units be as strong as possible. 10 years ago, I would have agreed with you about order. Re: lack of SBs in Manning era--I really think a lot of it was luck (one of our worst teams during that run is the one which won the SB), and the slow decline of Dungy's Tampa 2 as a legitimate defensive scheme due to rule changes and offensive scheme changes. 

 

 

But did you see Flacco's protection against the likes of Von Miller, Dumervil, Freeney, Mathis, and the 49ers' pass rush, few got close to him? His OL shuffling was a big factor in the Ravens getting to and winning the SB.

 

What did a disappearing Marvin Harrison and an inability to run in Foxboro or vs the elite teams get us in the playoffs? Once we ran the ball when teams forced us to take slow chunks of yardage, that is when the SB win came.

 

As funny as I think it is, Jim Caldwell's play calling had a ton to do with their success. The one thing I like about Pep is his insistence that a team has to be able to run and throw. The ability to keep a D playing both honest (or overcompensating by focus on one or the other) is how you are successful. Just think about how our D looked on Sunday--they were afraid of Pryor running and thus were always in no man's land. Remember how we gashed the Giants on the ground when our OL was terrible because they stayed in their Nickle NASCAR package? See above re: lack of playoff success. Also, I really think Peyton and that offense didn't mature until 2004, and 2005 was the best team of that era. During the Pats run in early 2000s, many of the rule changes and offensive philosophies that impact the game today were not implemented, and they were simply better built to excel in that context. Point is, it is an over simplification to say that OL personnel was the reason we did not win multiple SBs. 

[Jason_]

I would say QB>Skill Players>OL. It's probably a chicken/egg question that is nearly impossible to answer and comes down to team building preference. The ideal is obviously having all three units be as strong as possible. 

 

With this I can definitely agree.

[Dustin]

I recall Donald Thomas' time with us.  A fine run blocker but the team gave up on him because of his pass protection.   Has he improved there?  I didn't watch your first game so I'm curious as to who is giving up the pressure on Luck?

 

He only gave up one hurry to Pat Sims last game.

[Moose Of Woe]

Polian's biggest error was his son. Then quitting on perfection. Ugoh, yep, number 3.

 

I'd throw Corey Simon in that mix as well. What a cash eating disaster.

[chad72]

I would say QB>Skill Players>OL. It's probably a chicken/egg question that is nearly impossible to answer and comes down to team building preference. The ideal is obviously having all three units be as strong as possible. 10 years ago, I would have agreed with you about order. Re: lack of SBs in Manning era--I really think a lot of it was luck (one of our worst teams during that run is the one which won the SB), and the slow decline of Dungy's Tampa 2 as a legitimate defensive scheme due to rule changes and offensive scheme changes. 

 

 

 

As funny as I think it is, Jim Caldwell's play calling had a ton to do with their success. The one thing I like about Pep is his insistence that a team has to be able to run and throw. The ability to keep a D playing both honest (or overcompensating by focus on one or the other) is how you are successful. Just think about how our D looked on Sunday--they were afraid of Pryor running and thus were always in no man's land. Remember how we gashed the Giants on the ground when our OL was terrible because they stayed in their Nickle NASCAR package? See above re: lack of playoff success. Also, I really think Peyton and that offense didn't mature until 2004, and 2005 was the best team of that era. During the Pats run in early 2000s, many of the rule changes and offensive philosophies that impact the game today were not implemented, and they were simply better built to excel in that context. Point is, it is an over simplification to say that OL personnel was the reason we did not win multiple SBs. 

 

The long bombs to Jacoby Jones and Torrey Smith, none of them are possible without the protection afforded to Flacco. For the underneath, the strong hands of Boldin who was blanketed and yet made the catch was a big part of it. It was more Johnnys and Joes than Xs and Os, IMO, with the OL Johnnys and Joes being a bigger part than you are willing to acknowledge. It is like the serve before the return of serve in tennis, it is like the pitcher before the hitter in baseball, OL ability comes first, and then the skill players can make it happen. Yes, Caldwell took more shots down the field that Cam Cameron did not but it came at the right time when the OL shuffle happened, IMO. Yes, both go hand in hand but unless you are Peyton with quick release, you can't throw deep and hang in there without the protection. I will grant you that the OL does not have to be a top 10 OL but needs to play like one once you get into the playoffs.

 

Pats won in the early 2000s where teams were able to win by running the ball in the elements. Giants were 32nd in rushing but once the playoffs came around in 2011, they led the playoffs in time of possession with good balance. An OL being versatile to run multiple schemes and game plans is necessary nowadays, whether it is pass or run oriented.

[braveheartcolt]

I'd throw Corey Simon in that mix as well. What a cash eating disaster.

if you can throw Corey Simon in the mix. you are one strong dude.....no, good shout. not a good bit of business.

[Jason_]

He only gave up one hurry to Pat Sims last game.

 

he gave up more than just one...on one drive alone I saw him give up at least 2

[Coffeedrinker]

Shut up Jim, leave the coaching to coaches, they recognize it more than they would acknowledge in public.

 

Please don't become a Jerry Jones and preserve the equity of respect you have earned over the years!!!

 

Casey, Carlie, Kalen, someone take the phone away from this tweetie bird, please!!!

I figured this would be a problem with Irsay after he did it in the preseason after Buffalo and the team did better in the 2nd game.

 

I don't mind the owner calling out the team... but do it after a loss, not after a tough win.  I think Irsay forgets sometimes that the players on the other team get paid as well.

 

I also think that Grigson needs to man-up a little and tell Irsay to stop.  I know a lot of people don't like Irsay's tweets but I think we are seeing just how much of a stranglehold Polian put on Irsay's fast, flying thumbs.

[Larry Horseman]

The long bombs to Jacoby Jones and Torrey Smith, none of them are possible without the protection afforded to Flacco. For the underneath, the strong hands of Boldin who was blanketed and yet made the catch was a big part of it. It was more Johnnys and Joes than Xs and Os, IMO, with the OL Johnnys and Joes being a bigger part than you are willing to acknowledge. It is like the serve before the return of serve in tennis, it is like the pitcher before the hitter in baseball, OL ability comes first, and then the skill players can make it happen. Yes, Caldwell took more shots down the field that Cam Cameron did not but it came at the right time when the OL shuffle happened, IMO. Yes, both go hand in hand but unless you are Peyton with quick release, you can't throw deep and hang in there without the protection. I will grant you that the OL does not have to be a top 10 OL but needs to play like one once you get into the playoffs.

 

Pats won in the early 2000s where teams were able to win by running the ball in the elements. Giants were 32nd in rushing but once the playoffs came around in 2011, they led the playoffs in time of possession with good balance. An OL being versatile to run multiple schemes and game plans is necessary nowadays, whether it is pass or run oriented.

 

So you are saying the difference in offensive production under Cameron and Caldwell had more to do with the OL than the change in coaching? IMO, the contemporary NFL is a QB and coach driven league: play calling and schemes alone enhance the success of both the run and pass games. Watch the Pats tonight...they will gash the Jets on the ground and through the air with hardly any known weapons. I don't think it is the OL that enables this; it's coaching and QBing that put the OL and other players--the team--in positions to succeed. Also, it's not like the Pats have heavily invested in the OL through early draft picks, etc. They have concentrated more on skill positions and defense. The whole is the sum of it's parts. A team can be stronger in some areas and weaker in others but must balance out to create a whole that is able to dictate and control to a certain extent what the other team does.

 

It's OK we have different philosophies on team building and what should be given priority. I do 100% agree with the bolded part but don't agree that it means building a dominant OL is the only way to achieve it. It's totally fine that you do. Also, I think every position on your team has to play at a top 10 level (be elite) to win in the playoffs.

[chad72]

So you are saying the difference in offensive production under Cameron and Caldwell had more to do with the OL than the change in coaching?

 

The truth is, we won't know completely because both OL change and coaching change happened at the same time.

 

QB trumps everything, no doubt about it. What comes next, OL or skill position is where our difference in philosophy is although there is a lot of common middle ground.