Marvin First Ballot HoF?

[IndyTrav]

I was recently reading an article on Stampede Blue, about how Marvin is a shoe in first ballot HoF according to Bill Polian. here is the link. 

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2013/2/25/4027634/bill-polian-marvin-harrison-is-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer

 

I love debating HoF. And its been awhile since I've debated Marvin. So here we go.

 

I dont believe Marvins is a first ballot guy. I believe Marvin will follow the Carter route, and it will take awhile.... 

 

Player A is Marvin Harrison.

 

Player A: 1102rec/14608 Total Yards/128Total TDs and played 190 games in 13 seasons...Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...8x Pro Bowler, 3x All-Pro and won a SB....and he caught 87% of his TDs from Peyton Manning..... 

 

Player B: 1000rec/12511 Total Yards/86 Total TDs and played 217 games in 14 seasons (although basically sat out his entire rookie year)....Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...4x Pro Bowler, has won 2 SBs, and a SB MVP...and he caught 47% of his TDs from the teams best QB....

 

Marvin trumps player B by 102rec/ 2097yds/ 42TDs...And although Player B played more games, his team still attempted 443 less passes through both players respected careers...Player B is arguably the greatest blocking WR of all time...

 

Is there a large enough margin between these two players that 1 is a first ballot HoF, while the other is possibly not even going to make the HoF? Or perhaps both make it? 

 

 

 

Player B is Hines Ward 

[subvet]

If Marvin hadn't been followed by another great one like Reggie Wayne he would be a first ballot lock.  Many voters may think Manning was the difference (which he was in part) but there were so many truly mind boggling catches Marvin made it is impossible to deny him the honor for long.

[LUCKy]

Yes...

[Dustin]

Marvin will get in before Hines Ward. Marvin has more catches, yards, and TDs in less games. First ballot? Probably not.

Hines will get in strictly because he's a Steelers wide receiver.

[United We Stand]

definitely

[Jay Kirk]

HANDS DOWN

[ColtJ82]

Yes...

Strong first post 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

I remember Marvin Harrison as a hard worker who ran good routes & had good hands & was 1 of the best in his era .

 

Of course having Peyton Manning as QB did'nt hurt, But 18 was'nt running routes & catching the ball in the corner of the end zone laying out dragging his feet for a circus catch . No that was our professed junk food junkie 88 , IMO a first ballot HOF'er .

[IndyTrav]

Marvin will get in before Hines Ward. Marvin has more catches, yards, and TDs in less games. First ballot? Probably not.

Hines will get in strictly because he's a Steelers wide receiver.

 

I think its a lot closer than people think. 

 

Marvin does have more rec/yds/tds....His glaring positive are the TDs, however the rec/yards really aren't that far apart given the amount of passes each team attempted, thru there careers....Hines essentially didnt play his first season, and even counting it, the Steelers still attempted 443 LESS passes...Not counting Hines rookie season, in which he didnt play, the Steelers attempted 932 less passes than the Colts...that could have easily put Hines within Marvs yards total, and put him well past Marvs rec total....

 

I think the raw #'s are close enough between these two, although Marvin does lead in all #'d categories, but at what point, and what type of impact does Hines blocking come into play? Does it at all? 

[pacolts56]

On pure stat production and more importantly, his "ask the CBs who covered him" merit, Marvin should be a 1st ballot selection.

 

But thanks to the whiskey-guzzling journalists that are anointed with these decisions, and who have created a ridiculous logjam of WRs, he'll have to wait.

[NewColtsFan]

No.   I don't think he's a first ballot HoF.

 

Doesn't mean he won't get in.   Many, many seriously talented players got into the HoF, but not on the first ballot. 

 

It's no insult.

 

He'll get in someday....   but not on the first ballot.    And maybe not even on the 2nd.....

[Iron Colt]

He should be in first ballot. We will see

[Balzer40]

I kind of agree with NCF. As much as Colts fans love him, I'm not sure he makes it in on the 1st time. Always that possibility, but I'm not convinced.

[LUCKy]

Strong first post 

hahaha Long time lurker and I used to have an account from like 10 years ago, but I forgot all my account info.  Not to mention I think my screen name had something to do with Mike Doss, who I thought would finally be our hard hitting DB.  Whiffed on that one!

[pacolts56]

I think its a lot closer than people think. 

 

Marvin does have more rec/yds/tds....His glaring positive are the TDs, however the rec/yards really aren't that far apart given the amount of passes each team attempted, thru there careers....Hines essentially didnt play his first season, and even counting it, the Steelers still attempted 443 LESS passes...Not counting Hines rookie season, in which he didnt play, the Steelers attempted 932 less passes than the Colts...that could have easily put Hines within Marvs yards total, and put him well past Marvs rec total....

 

I think the raw #'s are close enough between these two, although Marvin does lead in all #'d categories, but at what point, and what type of impact does Hines blocking come into play? Does it at all? 

You make a good case for Ward but you kind of answered your own question....the Steelers were far more of a ground-based offense than the Colts during Marvin's career. Big Ben nor his predecessors were in no way asked to put the ball up nearly as much as Peyton, who didn't need to be asked.

 

That would not only account for less pass attempts but also Ward's blocking value, which was huge for that rushing attack and absolutely deserves noting once he's HoF eligible. And for quite a while Ward was also their primary target when they did pass and I believe earned him a trip to Canton as well. He and Harrison were entirely different types of WRs, but both great at what they did.

 

IMO...they both earned a spot in Canton. They probably won't make it on the 1st ballot, but they should both get in eventually.

 

I'm just curious though....on a somewhat related note....if Hines Ward's superb WR blocking warrants high merit in his HoF consideration, wouldn't that also be the case with Edgerrin James, who if I'm not mistaken, you've argued should not be voted into the HoF?

 

Edge was widely regarded as a terrific blocker, the best blocking RB in the NFL during his career in fact, in addition to being the #11 all-time rushing leader and who's rushing and receiving skills produced 15,000+ all purpose yards....more than Hall of Famers Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Franco Harris and OJ Simpson...the latter two of whom he out-rushed.

 

IMO....the original Colts triplets should all be voted in. Peyton will be a slam-dunk 1st ballot and Edge and Marvin should make it in, they'll just probably have to wait a turn or two.

[Dustin]

You make a good case for Ward but you kind of answered your own question....the Steelers were far more of a ground-based offense than the Colts during Marvin's career. Big Ben nor his predecessors were in no way asked to put the ball up nearly as much as Peyton, who didn't need to be asked.

That would not only account for less pass attempts but also Ward's blocking value, which was huge for that rushing attack and absolutely deserves noting once he's HoF eligible. And for quite a while Ward was also their primary target when they did pass and I believe earned him a trip to Canton as well. He and Harrison were entirely different types of WRs, but both great at what they did.

IMO...they both earned a spot in Canton. They probably won't make it on the 1st ballot, but they should both get in eventually.

I'm just curious though....on a somewhat related note....if Hines Ward's superb WR blocking warrants high merit in his HoF consideration, wouldn't that also be the case with Edgerrin James, who if I'm not mistaken, you've argued should not be voted into the HoF?

Edge was widely regarded as a terrific blocker, the best blocking RB in the NFL during his career in fact, in addition to being the #11 all-time rushing leader and who's rushing and receiving skills produced 15,000+ all purpose yards....more than Hall of Famers Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Franco Harris and OJ Simpson...the latter two of whom he out-rushed.

IMO....the original Colts triplets should all be voted in. Peyton will be a slam-dunk 1st ballot and Edge and Marvin should make it in, they'll just probably have to wait a turn or two.

If Jermoe Bettis makes the hall of fame and Edge doesn't it would be a travesty.

[Smonroe]

No.   I don't think he's a first ballot HoF.

 

Doesn't mean he won't get in.   Many, many seriously talented players got into the HoF, but not on the first ballot. 

 

It's no insult.

 

He'll get in someday....   but not on the first ballot.    And maybe not even on the 2nd.....

This. Carter, Brown, even Reed all had to wait.

[IndyTrav]

You make a good case for Ward but you kind of answered your own question....the Steelers were far more of a ground-based offense than the Colts during Marvin's career. Big Ben nor his predecessors were in no way asked to put the ball up nearly as much as Peyton, who didn't need to be asked.

 

That would not only account for less pass attempts but also Ward's blocking value, which was huge for that rushing attack and absolutely deserves noting once he's HoF eligible. And for quite a while Ward was also their primary target when they did pass and I believe earned him a trip to Canton as well. He and Harrison were entirely different types of WRs, but both great at what they did.

 

IMO...they both earned a spot in Canton. They probably won't make it on the 1st ballot, but they should both get in eventually.

 

I'm just curious though....on a somewhat related note....if Hines Ward's superb WR blocking warrants high merit in his HoF consideration, wouldn't that also be the case with Edgerrin James, who if I'm not mistaken, you've argued should not be voted into the HoF?

 

Edge was widely regarded as a terrific blocker, the best blocking RB in the NFL during his career in fact, in addition to being the #11 all-time rushing leader and who's rushing and receiving skills produced 15,000+ all purpose yards....more than Hall of Famers Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Franco Harris and OJ Simpson...the latter two of whom he out-rushed.

 

IMO....the original Colts triplets should all be voted in. Peyton will be a slam-dunk 1st ballot and Edge and Marvin should make it in, they'll just probably have to wait a turn or two.

 

 

I was just trying to illustrate how I feel Marvin is nowhere near first ballot, by relating him to a player that not many people consider to be a HoF, although I do feel both should get in, the 'first ballot' label is one I feel should be reserved as the highest of honors....

 

With Edge, I am torn. And the RB position eligibility in the near future, is very similar to the case of the WR. They are all comparable in nearly every way. With very few putting any sort of distance between each other....I do not consider Edge a HoF player, but its my opinion that if Bettis gets in (like Dustin mentioned) then Edge should also make it. However, again if Bettis gets in, it opens the flood gates for RB in general....Edge, Tiki Barber, Ricky Waters, Shaun Alexander and Corey Dillion as well as others, all have legitimate comparable resumes to both Edge and Bettis. All with pros and cons, but comparable none the less.....Its my opinion that the only RB of the 2000's that is a legitimate HoF, as well as being first ballot, is Ladainian Tomlinson. 

[coltsfanatic24]

Yes he's one of the top 5 wr's of all time.

[pacolts56]

I was just trying to illustrate how I feel Marvin is nowhere near first ballot, by relating him to a player that not many people consider to be a HoF, although I do feel both should get in, the 'first ballot' label is one I feel should be reserved as the highest of honors....

 

With Edge, I am torn. And the RB position eligibility in the near future, is very similar to the case of the WR. They are all comparable in nearly every way. With very few putting any sort of distance between each other....I do not consider Edge a HoF player, but its my opinion that if Bettis gets in (like Dustin mentioned) then Edge should also make it. However, again if Bettis gets in, it opens the flood gates for RB in general....Edge, Tiki Barber, Ricky Waters, Shaun Alexander and Corey Dillion as well as others, all have legitimate comparable resumes to both Edge and Bettis. All with pros and cons, but comparable none the less.....Its my opinion that the only RB of the 2000's that is a legitimate HoF, as well as being first ballot, is Ladainian Tomlinson. 

That's cool...we have slightly different takes on both Marvin and Edge.

 

IMO...Marvin's delay will be more of a function of the WR logjam, and possibly the Philadelphia incident as well....since we are talking about sports writers. It doesn't help him, put it that way.

 

But Edge, IMO, is underrated among RBs and although I agree he won't be a first ballot guy....should absolutely be enshrined at some point for his almost ummatched versatility compared to RBs already inducted.

 

I agree that LT is a legit 1st ballot guy...but I also think Edge should get in on his 2nd or 3rd shot.

[jvan1973]

This. Carter, Brown, even Reed all had to wait.

Marvin was better than reed and brown

[Superman]

I was recently reading an article on Stampede Blue, about how Marvin is a shoe in first ballot HoF according to Bill Polian. here is the link. 

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2013/2/25/4027634/bill-polian-marvin-harrison-is-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer

 

I love debating HoF. And its been awhile since I've debated Marvin. So here we go.

 

I dont believe Marvins is a first ballot guy. I believe Marvin will follow the Carter route, and it will take awhile.... 

 

Player A is Marvin Harrison.

 

Player A: 1102rec/14608 Total Yards/128Total TDs and played 190 games in 13 seasons...Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...8x Pro Bowler, 3x All-Pro and won a SB....and he caught 87% of his TDs from Peyton Manning..... 

 

Player B: 1000rec/12511 Total Yards/86 Total TDs and played 217 games in 14 seasons (although basically sat out his entire rookie year)....Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...4x Pro Bowler, has won 2 SBs, and a SB MVP...and he caught 47% of his TDs from the teams best QB....

 

Marvin trumps player B by 102rec/ 2097yds/ 42TDs...And although Player B played more games, his team still attempted 443 less passes through both players respected careers...Player B is arguably the greatest blocking WR of all time...

 

Is there a large enough margin between these two players that 1 is a first ballot HoF, while the other is possibly not even going to make the HoF? Or perhaps both make it? 

 

 

 

Player B is Hines Ward 

 

Not sure I understand the bolded...

[Fx Stryker]

Not sure I understand the bolded...

 

I think he means Ben, but didn't want to give away the receiver until the last second.

[Superman]

TIMO...Marvin's delay will be more of a function of the WR logjam, and possibly the Philadelphia incident as well....since we are talking about sports writers. It doesn't help him, put it that way.

 

I agree here, on both counts. The Philly deal is unfortunate, and I wonder if a complete story will ever be confirmed.

 

As for the logjam, I think that's much more pertinent than a comparison to a player like Hines Ward. I don't think Ward compares very favorably to Reed and Brown, and I think Marvin's numbers are better than theirs. We can explain away the differences in production, but the differences are still there, and out of Marvin, Reed and Brown, I think Marvin is at the top of the list.

[Smonroe]

Marvin was better than reed and brown

 

Subjective.  I agree but others may feel different.  Brown gets a boost with his KRing.

 

Fun to talk about but I doubt Marv is sweating it.

[Superman]

I think he means Ben, but didn't want to give away the receiver until the last second.

 

I know that's Ben, but I don't know what he means. Ben has been the starter the whole time he's been in Pittsburgh.

[Fx Stryker]

I know that's Ben, but I don't know what he means. Ben has been the starter the whole time he's been in Pittsburgh.

 

Hines played with Tommy Maddox, Kordel, ect.

 

So I think he means 47% of Hines's TDs come from when Ben.

[Dustin]

I know that's Ben, but I don't know what he means. Ben has been the starter the whole time he's been in Pittsburgh.

He's saying that 47% of Ward's Tds are from Ben.

[Superman]

He's saying that 47% of Ward's Tds are from Ben.

 

Ah.

 

Not sure that's relevant to his HOF credentials.

[IndyTrav]

Ah.

Not sure that's relevant to his HOF credentials.

It was more along the lines to point out the discrepancy between the QBs the players played with, and how Ward didn't get a majority if his #s with a premier QB at the helm.

And when judging WRs for HoF purposes, any purposes really, the QB is extremely relevant.

[21isSuperman]

Marvin should definitely be a HOFer.  I think since he has retired for a few years and his exit from the game was a little ugly, people forget how great he was.  Watch some Marvin Harrison highlights.  In his prime, the man could beat any DB in the league.  He could not be covered.

[Superman]

It was more along the lines to point out the discrepancy between the QBs the players played with, and how Ward didn't get a majority if his #s with a premier QB at the helm.

And when judging WRs for HoF purposes, any purposes really, the QB is extremely relevant.

 

I don't necessarily agree with that. I do agree with the premise that the quarterback can help the receiver put up better numbers, of course. But we're talking about a decade and half's worth of production out of a player. Shouldn't that production stand on its merits? We're not talking about a guy who had a couple good years, and those just happened to coincide with him having a good quarterback. We're talking about a consistent performer over a long period of time.

 

And it's a double whammy for the player who had the better teammate (whether it's a receiver or a quarterback; it's symbiotic), because you're penalizing Marvin for playing with Manning, and at the same time you're crediting Ward for not playing with Manning. I just disagree with that method of judging.

 

To further examine the comparison between the two players, when you look at Marvin's best years and compare them to Ward's (and at this point, I should mention that Ward's best years didn't even come with Roethlisberger as the quarterback, so I'm not sure Roethlisberger is relevant at all), Marvin was head and shoulders above Ward. Marvin's second best season is better than Ward's best season, and Manning was only in his second year, and there was no Reggie yet. Marvin has significant records that Ward never came anywhere near. His place on the all time lists is well above Ward's, in two fewer seasons. All this is why I don't think the comparison is worthy. We're debating whether Marvin is a first ballot HOFer, but it's unclear whether Ward gets in at all. I'm not sure why Ward is part of the conversation.

 

I'm more concerned with how Marvin stacks up with current HOFers, and maybe more importantly, how he stacks up with the players already in the logjam. I think Marvin's numbers are better than Carter's, particularly considering how much longer Carter played for. And Carter's credentials were never in question; he was just stuck in the logjam with Reed and Brown. To me, that puts Marvin ahead of Reed and Brown (who both have better numbers than Ward, by the way). Because of the logjam, it wouldn't surprise me if one or both of them go in ahead of Marvin. But that won't be because he's less qualified. JMO.

 

To answer your original question, I don't think Marvin is a first ballot HOFer, given all the various considerations. That doesn't bother me, as I think he'll eventually get there.

[BleedBlu8792]

I was recently reading an article on Stampede Blue, about how Marvin is a shoe in first ballot HoF according to Bill Polian. here is the link.

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2013/2/25/4027634/bill-polian-marvin-harrison-is-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer

I love debating HoF. And its been awhile since I've debated Marvin. So here we go.

I dont believe Marvins is a first ballot guy. I believe Marvin will follow the Carter route, and it will take awhile....

Player A is Marvin Harrison.

Player A: 1102rec/14608 Total Yards/128Total TDs and played 190 games in 13 seasons...Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...8x Pro Bowler, 3x All-Pro and won a SB....and he caught 87% of his TDs from Peyton Manning.....

Player B: 1000rec/12511 Total Yards/86 Total TDs and played 217 games in 14 seasons (although basically sat out his entire rookie year)....Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...4x Pro Bowler, has won 2 SBs, and a SB MVP...and he caught 47% of his TDs from the teams best QB....

Marvin trumps player B by 102rec/ 2097yds/ 42TDs...And although Player B played more games, his team still attempted 443 less passes through both players respected careers...Player B is arguably the greatest blocking WR of all time...

Is there a large enough margin between these two players that 1 is a first ballot HoF, while the other is possibly not even going to make the HoF? Or perhaps both make it?

Player B is Hines Ward

I know you keep bringing up 443 less passes, but from your stats that you provided Hines played in 27 more games. Had Marvin been given 27 more games this isn't even a discussion.

[DalTXColtsFan]

I haven't read all of the posts, but I hit ctrl-f and typed "playoffs" and the word didn't appear.

 

As far as I know, the only player in the hall of fame whose regular season stats and postseason stats are even close to as disparate as Marvin's is Walter Payton, and it's understandable how an exception could be made for Walter.

 

How many truly big games has Marvin had in the postseason?  Answer:  ONE.

 

How many truly big catches has Marvin made in the postseason?  I can remember the long pass from Harbaugh his rookie year, and the 2-point-conversion catch against the Pats the year we won the SuperBowl.  ANY other big catches for Marvin?  Anywhere?  I'll spot him the 2 TDs he's scored in the postseason HIS ENTIRE CAREER as well.

 

People continue to make excuses for him about how he didn't perform in the postseason due to being his team's only receiving threat while ignoring the fact that he played with Wayne, Clark and Stokely for several years late in his career, and that players like Owens and Johnson (and I'm sure there are others) have managed to have big games against good defenses despite being the only credible receiving threat on their team.

 

Marvin's not a hall-of-famer at all IMHO.

[Superman]

I haven't read all of the posts, but I hit ctrl-f and typed "playoffs" and the word didn't appear.

 

As far as I know, the only player in the hall of fame whose regular season stats and postseason stats are even close to as disparate as Marvin's is Walter Payton, and it's understandable how an exception could be made for Walter.

 

How many truly big games has Marvin had in the postseason?  Answer:  ONE.

 

How many truly big catches has Marvin made in the postseason?  I can remember the long pass from Harbaugh his rookie year, and the 2-point-conversion catch against the Pats the year we won the SuperBowl.  ANY other big catches for Marvin?  Anywhere?  I'll spot him the 2 TDs he's scored in the postseason HIS ENTIRE CAREER as well.

 

People continue to make excuses for him about how he didn't perform in the postseason due to being his team's only receiving threat while ignoring the fact that he played with Wayne, Clark and Stokely for several years late in his career, and that players like Owens and Johnson (and I'm sure there are others) have managed to have big games against good defenses despite being the only credible receiving threat on their team.

 

Marvin's not a hall-of-famer at all IMHO.

 

That's a valid consideration, but I don't agree that 16 playoff games outweigh the outstanding production from 190 regular season games. Randy Moss has a bunch of very average playoff games. So do other receivers.

[braveheartcolt]

I haven't read all of the posts, but I hit ctrl-f and typed "playoffs" and the word didn't appear.

 

As far as I know, the only player in the hall of fame whose regular season stats and postseason stats are even close to as disparate as Marvin's is Walter Payton, and it's understandable how an exception could be made for Walter.

 

How many truly big games has Marvin had in the postseason?  Answer:  ONE.

 

How many truly big catches has Marvin made in the postseason?  I can remember the long pass from Harbaugh his rookie year, and the 2-point-conversion catch against the Pats the year we won the SuperBowl.  ANY other big catches for Marvin?  Anywhere?  I'll spot him the 2 TDs he's scored in the postseason HIS ENTIRE CAREER as well.

 

People continue to make excuses for him about how he didn't perform in the postseason due to being his team's only receiving threat while ignoring the fact that he played with Wayne, Clark and Stokely for several years late in his career, and that players like Owens and Johnson (and I'm sure there are others) have managed to have big games against good defenses despite being the only credible receiving threat on their team.

 

Marvin's not a hall-of-famer at all IMHO.

Interesting point. If we had not won the SB in 2006/7, would you still consider Peyton a future HOF'er, based on his career to date?

[DalTXColtsFan]

Interesting point. If we had not won the SB in 2006/7, would you still consider Peyton a future HOF'er, based on his career to date?

First, can you be more specific?  "We had not won the SB in 2006/7" could simply mean that the defense gave up 30 points to the Bears and all other things were equal.

 

Second, SuperBowl or no SuperBowl, comparing Marvin's postseason production to Manning's is like comparing a tennis ball to a planet, so I'm not sure what your point was.

[Tark The Shark]

Marvin should be a first ballot HOF.

 

Unfortunately with the backlog of receivers going into the hall, he won't make it in for the first couple years.

[FalseStart]

Yes.

[Warhorse]

I will be shocked if he does not go in first year.