Marvin First Ballot HoF?

[GoColts8818]

I haven't read all of the posts, but I hit ctrl-f and typed "playoffs" and the word didn't appear.

As far as I know, the only player in the hall of fame whose regular season stats and postseason stats are even close to as disparate as Marvin's is Walter Payton, and it's understandable how an exception could be made for Walter.

How many truly big games has Marvin had in the postseason? Answer: ONE.

How many truly big catches has Marvin made in the postseason? I can remember the long pass from Harbaugh his rookie year, and the 2-point-conversion catch against the Pats the year we won the SuperBowl. ANY other big catches for Marvin? Anywhere? I'll spot him the 2 TDs he's scored in the postseason HIS ENTIRE CAREER as well.

People continue to make excuses for him about how he didn't perform in the postseason due to being his team's only receiving threat while ignoring the fact that he played with Wayne, Clark and Stokely for several years late in his career, and that players like Owens and Johnson (and I'm sure there are others) have managed to have big games against good defenses despite being the only credible receiving threat on their team.

Marvin's not a hall-of-famer at all IMHO.

you don't judge a player on if he should go to the hall of fame or not based on playoffs alone. You judge it on his career and Marvin had the second or third greatest career number wise in the history of the NFL for a WR when he retired. BTW that isn't an excuse you can look the numbers up when Marvin retired he was second or third on just about every major receiving career mark there is. Just because the fact doesn't support your argument doesn't make it an excuse. He will go into the Hall of Fame. His lack of production in the playoffs may keep him from going in on the first try but he will go in. You can make a very strong case that other than Peyton Marvin was the best player during this era of Colts football and I don't think Peyton was the only HOFer on that team so if you keep Marvin out you have to keep the rest out.

[braveheartcolt]

First, can you be more specific?  "We had not won the SB in 2006/7" could simply mean that the defense gave up 30 points to the Bears and all other things were equal.

 

Second, SuperBowl or no SuperBowl, comparing Marvin's postseason production to Manning's is like comparing a tennis ball to a planet, so I'm not sure what your point was.

Why so edgy?

 

1. You know my point, very clearly.

2. You have given me the answer I requested.

 

Thanks.

[southwest1]

Like many have already stated Marvin Harrison will get into Canton eventually, who cares whether it's on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd ballot? You're either a HOF member with a yellow jacket or you are not. It's like winning an oscar as an actor. No one remembers how many times they were passed over by the Academy Of Motion Pictures.

 

Once they read your name off that card, you are now an Academy Award winning actor. The same reality holds true in the hallowed halls of NFL immortality in Canton. 

[DalTXColtsFan]

Why so edgy?

 

1. You know my point, very clearly.

2. You have given me the answer I requested.

 

Thanks.

I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage.  I have no idea why you brought up Peyton and the Super Bowl when I was talking about Marvin and the playoffs.  I have no clue what one has to do with the other.

 

And if I gave you an answer that you requested, I don't know what the question OR the answer are.

[ColtsBlueFL]

If Marvin had any post season success, he would be in first shot, but he'll have to go through a round or two.  I think Ward will squeak in near the end of his eligibility.

[Dustin]

I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. I have no idea why you brought up Peyton and the Super Bowl when I was talking about Marvin and the playoffs. I have no clue what one has to do with the other.

And if I gave you an answer that you requested, I don't know what the question OR the answer are.

Reggie Wayne is statisticly the 2nd best post season receiver ever. Is he a first ballot HOFer?

[DalTXColtsFan]

Reggie Wayne is statisticly the 2nd best post season receiver ever. Is he a first ballot HOFer?

 

1.  WOW!!!! Really????  I knew Reggie was good, but the 2nd best statistically in the postseason EVER?  WOW - way to go Reggie!!!!  I had NO idea.

2.  In the regular season he's #10 all-time in receptions, #14 in receiving yards and #24 in receiving touchdowns.  And he'll probably play for 2 or 3 more years - he could realistically end up in the top 10 across the board, and if the Colts can put a pass-blocking O-Line in front of Luck - watch out world!

3.  A player who tends up top 10 all time in every receiving category and #2 all time in the playoffs certainly DESERVES to be a first-ballot HOFer.  WILL he be?  Who knows.  As has been mentioned, there are several world-class receivers who aren't in yet due to the backlog.

 

While we're on the subject of Reggie, let me ask a question - of all the receivers already in the HoF and those waiting right outside the door, are there any other "Reggie Waynes" in the bunch, meaning receivers who aren't known for making circus catches, being big bodies, being blazing-footed deep threats etc. - are there any other receivers who JUST GET THE JOB DONE (and, in Reggie's case, get it done better than 99% of the receivers who have ever played the game) who are either in the HoF or knocking at the door?

 

Now back to braveheartcolt's original post, I said "I don't think Marvin deserves the HoF because he disappeared in the postseason", BraveHeart said, "Would Manning still deserve to be the HoF if the Colts hadn't won a SuperBowl", and you brought up Reggie.

 

I believe your point in bringinig up Reggie was, "Would you put Reggie in before Marvin because Reggie was better in the PS but Marvin better in the RS?"  which is a fair question.  I personally would put a top-10-across-the-board RS receiver who was #2 in the PS in before I would put in a #2-across-the-board RS receiver who disappears in the postseason, but that's just my opinion.

 

I still have no idea what Manning winning a SuperBowl has to do with Marvin disappearing in the playoffs.  I have no idea what braveheartcolt's point was in even bringing that up.

[alawai]

I'm not skirting the question nor throwing a wrench into the question but when will Harrison be eligible?  I think to be eligible for HOF consideration a player must be retired for 5 years.  I remember reading an article that Harrison had not turned in his retirement papers to the NFL a year after being released.  My question, is he retired?  If so when did he retire?  When would his eligibility date be?  Now if Hines Ward gets in before Harrison then it may pave the way for other wr's.

 

Thanks guys know that many of you are very knowledgeable on issues.

[Superman]

1

While we're on the subject of Reggie, let me ask a question - of all the receivers already in the HoF and those waiting right outside the door, are there any other "Reggie Waynes" in the bunch, meaning receivers who aren't known for making circus catches, being big bodies, being blazing-footed deep threats etc. - are there any other receivers who JUST GET THE JOB DONE (and, in Reggie's case, get it done better than 99% of the receivers who have ever played the game) who are either in the HoF or knocking at the door?

 

To me, that's Tim Brown.

[DalTXColtsFan]

To me, that's Tim Brown.

Good example.  A moment after I clicked Post I thought of Cris Carter as well.  So there's certainly a precedent that a Reggie Wayne/Wes Welker type can get in.

[alawai]

To me, that's Tim Brown.

 

Good example.  A moment after I clicked Post I thought of Cris Carter as well.  So there's certainly a precedent that a Reggie Wayne/Wes Welker type can get in.

Good examples are the "Partners in Crime"  John Taylor (Jerry Rice) and Jon Stallworth (Lynn Swan)

[Buck Showalter]

1.  WOW!!!! Really????  I knew Reggie was good, but the 2nd best statistically in the postseason EVER?  WOW - way to go Reggie!!!!  I had NO idea.

2.  In the regular season he's #10 all-time in receptions, #14 in receiving yards and #24 in receiving touchdowns.  And he'll probably play for 2 or 3 more years - he could realistically end up in the top 10 across the board, and if the Colts can put a pass-blocking O-Line in front of Luck - watch out world!

3.  A player who tends up top 10 all time in every receiving category and #2 all time in the playoffs certainly DESERVES to be a first-ballot HOFer.  WILL he be?  Who knows.  As has been mentioned, there are several world-class receivers who aren't in yet due to the backlog.

 

While we're on the subject of Reggie, let me ask a question - of all the receivers already in the HoF and those waiting right outside the door, are there any other "Reggie Waynes" in the bunch, meaning receivers who aren't known for making circus catches, being big bodies, being blazing-footed deep threats etc. - are there any other receivers who JUST GET THE JOB DONE (and, in Reggie's case, get it done better than 99% of the receivers who have ever played the game) who are either in the HoF or knocking at the door?

 

Now back to braveheartcolt's original post, I said "I don't think Marvin deserves the HoF because he disappeared in the postseason", BraveHeart said, "Would Manning still deserve to be the HoF if the Colts hadn't won a SuperBowl", and you brought up Reggie.

 

I believe your point in bringinig up Reggie was, "Would you put Reggie in before Marvin because Reggie was better in the PS but Marvin better in the RS?"  which is a fair question.  I personally would put a top-10-across-the-board RS receiver who was #2 in the PS in before I would put in a #2-across-the-board RS receiver who disappears in the postseason, but that's just my opinion.

 

I still have no idea what Manning winning a SuperBowl has to do with Marvin disappearing in the playoffs.  I have no idea what braveheartcolt's point was in even bringing that up.

 I would argue that it is because of Marvin that Reggie's post season numbers are so good...

[Tony Sullivan]

I was recently reading an article on Stampede Blue, about how Marvin is a shoe in first ballot HoF according to Bill Polian. here is the link. 

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2013/2/25/4027634/bill-polian-marvin-harrison-is-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer

 

I love debating HoF. And its been awhile since I've debated Marvin. So here we go.

 

I dont believe Marvins is a first ballot guy. I believe Marvin will follow the Carter route, and it will take awhile.... 

 

Player A is Marvin Harrison.

 

Player A: 1102rec/14608 Total Yards/128Total TDs and played 190 games in 13 seasons...Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...8x Pro Bowler, 3x All-Pro and won a SB....and he caught 87% of his TDs from Peyton Manning..... 

 

Player B: 1000rec/12511 Total Yards/86 Total TDs and played 217 games in 14 seasons (although basically sat out his entire rookie year)....Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...4x Pro Bowler, has won 2 SBs, and a SB MVP...and he caught 47% of his TDs from the teams best QB....

 

Marvin trumps player B by 102rec/ 2097yds/ 42TDs...And although Player B played more games, his team still attempted 443 less passes through both players respected careers...Player B is arguably the greatest blocking WR of all time...

 

Is there a large enough margin between these two players that 1 is a first ballot HoF, while the other is possibly not even going to make the HoF? Or perhaps both make it? 

 

 

 

Player B is Hines Ward

27 games is a significant amount in the NFL. That means that Hines played almost 2 full seasons more, but still produced much less. 2-3 seasons worth of pro bowl stats less to be honest.

If Marvin get's it it's because him and Manning are the most prolific duo ever in the NFL. The voters would probably want him in Canton when Peyton gets there for whatever kinds of shrines theyre going to make.

[theanarchist]

I was recently reading an article on Stampede Blue, about how Marvin is a shoe in first ballot HoF according to Bill Polian. here is the link. 

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2013/2/25/4027634/bill-polian-marvin-harrison-is-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer

 

I love debating HoF. And its been awhile since I've debated Marvin. So here we go.

 

I dont believe Marvins is a first ballot guy. I believe Marvin will follow the Carter route, and it will take awhile.... 

 

Player A is Marvin Harrison.

 

Player A: 1102rec/14608 Total Yards/128Total TDs and played 190 games in 13 seasons...Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...8x Pro Bowler, 3x All-Pro and won a SB....and he caught 87% of his TDs from Peyton Manning..... 

 

Player B: 1000rec/12511 Total Yards/86 Total TDs and played 217 games in 14 seasons (although basically sat out his entire rookie year)....Owns all the franchise receiving records, and his franchise has 2 receivers already in the HoF...4x Pro Bowler, has won 2 SBs, and a SB MVP...and he caught 47% of his TDs from the teams best QB....

 

Marvin trumps player B by 102rec/ 2097yds/ 42TDs...And although Player B played more games, his team still attempted 443 less passes through both players respected careers...Player B is arguably the greatest blocking WR of all time...

 

Is there a large enough margin between these two players that 1 is a first ballot HoF, while the other is possibly not even going to make the HoF? Or perhaps both make it? 

 

 

 

Player B is Hines Ward 

The steelers have 2 receivers in the HOF but I think they made it based on the team accomplishments more than anything else. They played in a different era for sure so it's hard to compare numbers. As far as Hines Ward goes, he was not even in Marvin's ball park when it came to big play ability(as seen by the 42 TD's that separate the two). Marvin is a HOF, first ballot HOF IDK. I would say no but he should get in soon.

[IndyTrav]

27 games is a significant amount in the NFL. That means that Hines played almost 2 full seasons more, but still produced much less. 2-3 seasons worth of pro bowl stats less to be honest.

If Marvin get's it it's because him and Manning are the most prolific duo ever in the NFL. The voters would probably want him in Canton when Peyton gets there for whatever kinds of shrines theyre going to make.

In Wards defense he gets counted games for simply being on the active roster....His rookie year he gets credit for 16 games, although he only appeared in 11, not makin any sort of impact (something like 11rec 200yds) during those games.

Now. Games Started, that's where it gets interesting. 190 for Ward...188 for Marvin.

[GoColts8818]

I think it's very possible and frankly becoming more realistic that Marvin and Reggie will BOTH be Hall of Famers.  I get the sense from some here that people are trying to pick between the two I don't think it will come down to that.  I think when it's all said and done Peyton, Marvin, Reggie, and Dwight will all go to the Hall (along with Dungy and Polian).  Saturday, Mathis, and Edge will have a shot depending on which way the voters side on them or in Mathis case what he does with the rest of his career.  Adam is tricky because he's a kicker but I could see Adam going in as well but I am not going to be shocked if he doesn't. 

[House]

I think it's very possible and frankly becoming more realistic that Marvin and Reggie will BOTH be Hall of Famers. I get the sense from some here that people are trying to pick between the two I don't think it will come down to that. I think when it's all said and done Peyton, Marvin, Reggie, and Dwight will all go to the Hall (along with Dungy and Polian). Saturday, Mathis, and Edge will have a shot depending on which way the voters side on them or in Mathis case what he does with the rest of his career. Adam is tricky because he's a kicker but I could see Adam going in as well but I am not going to be shocked if he doesn't.

You think Freeney's going to the HoF?

[theanarchist]

You think Freeney's going to the HoF?

I think Freeney still needs a couple of solid years to make it. He has a shot in my opinion.

[GoColts8818]

You think Freeney's going to the HoF?

Has a really good shot, probably needs a few more sacks to lock it up as a for sure thing but I think he has a pretty good chance. 

[House]

Has a really good shot, probably needs a few more sacks to lock it up as a for sure thing but I think he has a pretty good chance.

Yeah, I'm the same.

And my other post wasn't condescending or anything I was genuinely asking lol.

I reread it and it sounded standoffish .

[GoColts8818]

Yeah, I'm the same.

And my other post wasn't condescending or anything I was genuinely asking lol.

I reread it and it sounded standoffish .

Na I figured what you were getting at.  I don't know if Freeney could retire today and get in but like I said when things are all said and done I think he will get there.  I don't see anyone else on our defense going in before Freeney and I think Mathis has a SHOT but he has to produce at a really high level for a few more years to get there.  He kinda has to do what Reggie did when Marvin left and prove and he wasn't just a product of playing on the other side of a Hall of Famer.  If Mathis can do that I could see Mathis moving into that category but Mathis has a lot more to do to get in there than Freeney does.  Freeney and Reggie just kinda need to finish off their Hall of Fame careers and they SHOULD get in but I would agree they aren't a lock. 

[DalTXColtsFan]

 I would argue that it is because of Marvin that Reggie's post season numbers are so good...

As silly an argument as that would be, the numbers surprisingly bear it out.  In 2009, 2010 and 2012 Reggie only had 1 postseason TD.  He had 8 from 2002 to 2008.

[Buck Showalter]

I would argue that it is because of Marvin that Reggie's post season numbers are so good...

 

 

As silly an argument as that would be, the numbers surprisingly bear it out.  In 2009, 2010 and 2012 Reggie only had 1 postseason TD.  He had 8 from 2002 to 2008.

I still hope Marvin is a first ballot HOFer...

and Reggie is probably my favorite footbal player ever,

I'm just saying in the playoffs against stronger opponents/defenses, I don't think it is so surprising to see your number one reciever's (in this case Marvin) numbers/stats go down, and your number two reciever (Reggie) have more receptions, etc...

[Ja'Crispy]

He should, and eventually will get in, but I don't see him being a first ballot guy. It seems like WRs have had some trouble recently getting voted in. It took Cris Carter a few tries (though I would put Marvin ahead of him). Plus the shooting incident may stick with the voters and hurt his chances a bit. Some might even unfairly take away from his great career by saying Manning inflated his stats, but that's a bunch of malarkey.  

[GoColts8818]

He should, and eventually will get in, but I don't see him being a first ballot guy. It seems like WRs have had some trouble recently getting voted in. It took Cris Carter a few tries (though I would put Marvin ahead of him). Plus the shooting incident may stick with the voters and hurt his chances a bit. Some might even unfairly take away from his great career by saying Manning inflated his stats, but that's a bunch of malarkey.  

The biggest thing that kept Cris Carter out of the Hall is that he was known for being a jerk and the people voting on him held that against him because they didn't like them.  Some of the voters were not shy about sharing that. 

 

I don't think that is going to apply to Marvin.  Despite what may or may not have happened in Philly he was highly respected among NFL people.  Remember during a time that WRs show boated like it was the most important part of the game Marvin was the guy that was held up as doing it "right" by just handing the ball to the official after he scored.  Not that that one act means a lot by it's self but it's just a show that he was respected around the NFL. 

 

As for Manning inflating his stats I agree with you it's malarkey to hold it against him.  Almost all great WRs have a great QB who helped them "inflate" his numbers.  Look no further than Jerry Rice for an example of this, he played with two Hall of Famers and League MVP during his career.  How many guys can say the THIRD best QB he played with was a League MVP?  Then on top of that some feel that one of those two Hall of Famers was the greatest QB to ever play the game.  How many people honestly try to say Rice was just a product of playing with great QBs?  Then on top of that if someone honestly tried to make that argument what would happen to them?  They would be laughed at with their silly argument.  Great QBs and Great WRs almost always go hand and hand so to hold it against one when you don't hold it against others would not be fair. 

[Ja'Crispy]

The biggest thing that kept Cris Carter out of the Hall is that he was known for being a jerk and the people voting on him held that against him because they didn't like them.  Some of the voters were not shy about sharing that. 

 

I don't think that is going to apply to Marvin.  Despite what may or may not have happened in Philly he was highly respected among NFL people.  Remember during a time that WRs show boated like it was the most important part of the game Marvin was the guy that was held up as doing it "right" by just handing the ball to the official after he scored.  Not that that one act means a lot by it's self but it's just a show that he was respected around the NFL. 

 

As for Manning inflating his stats I agree with you it's malarkey to hold it against him.  Almost all great WRs have a great QB who helped them "inflate" his numbers.  Look no further than Jerry Rice for an example of this, he played with two Hall of Famers and League MVP during his career.  How many guys can say the THIRD best QB he played with was a League MVP?  Then on top of that some feel that one of those two Hall of Famers was the greatest QB to ever play the game.  How many people honestly try to say Rice was just a product of playing with great QBs?  Then on top of that if someone honestly tried to make that argument what would happen to them?  They would be laughed at with their silly argument.  Great QBs and Great WRs almost always go hand and hand so to hold it against one when you don't hold it against others would not be fair. 

Oh yeah I definitely agree Marvin was all business. He epitomized "let your game do the talking." I'm just afraid that because he was so quiet and and reserved that maybe he will fly under the radar a bit. But that's just one opinion. I can't begin to pretend like I know what goes on inside the voters' heads . The numbers speak for themselves and I'm sure all of his teammates loved him.

My best and earliest Colts memory is going to the games as a kid and hoping he would throw a ball to me after pre game warm ups. He would always finish by catching a deep pass, running through the opponents warming up (his only act of showing off ), and then tossing the ball to a fan. Great player and a great guy.

[crazycolt1]

With the stats alone Harrison should be a 1st time HOFer. 

[crazycolt1]

As silly an argument as that would be, the numbers surprisingly bear it out.  In 2009, 2010 and 2012 Reggie only had 1 postseason TD.  He had 8 from 2002 to 2008.

HOF is career not post season. You think Manning would not be a 1st time ballot because of his low stats in playoffs? 

[DalTXColtsFan]

HOF is career not post season. You think Manning would not be a 1st time ballot because of his low stats in playoffs? 

Manning has the #10 all-time career playoff QB rating:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_career_passer_rating_leaders

 

As a matter of fact, Peyton's playoff QB rating would be #14 all-time on the REGULAR SEASON career QB rating chart.

[husker61]

easy first ballot hof!

[Mitch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gd1tEtl3UM

 

Most definitely First Ballot. The first play in the video and the way he dominated Champ Bailey is incredible in that game. Look at the block around :55 seconds. Beast . 

[GoBlue]

I can't see how Marvin gets in on the first ballot. I'd love to see it happen, but with the log jam at WR it is going to be difficult. His numbers are comperable to Cris Carter and it took him, what, 4 years? The Hall really needs to reevaluate how they look at receivers. With the league becomming more passing oriented, numbers won't mean as much as they used to. But, where is the line that seperates the really good/great receivers from the ones worthy of enshrinement in the Hall?

[luvdacolts67]

He's one of the greats, absolutly a first Ballot Hall of Famer

[Gramz]

I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen.   We know, he'll most certainly be in the HOF someday, whether first round ballot or not.

He was one of my all time favorites to watch.