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Andrew Luck vs RGIII. This should settle things among those who don't know which to chose


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#1 Indianapolis-Colts-Fan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:33 AM

I know many of you are sick of this topic. If that is so then don't read this thread, or listen to the following link.

This is not a knock at RGII either for those who may think I am trying to make Luck seem better. This is nothing against RGIII who has also been impressive. But I'm tired of everyone saying RGIII is the better QB and the stats speak for themselves blah blah blah. I know what I've seen in Luck and anyone who knows QBs sees how impressive and under rated luck has been this year.

http://espn.go.com/e...play?id=8796005

This should settle things.

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#2 GoColts8818

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:22 AM

I could really go for some cake right about now...
Thank You Peyton! I look forward to the day you come home and we get to do this good bye thing right!

#3 BleedBlu8792

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:25 AM

As an unbiased Colts fan I think otherwise. I don't feel Luck was the better QB. Just my opinion..

#4 jskinnz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:39 AM

I know many of you are sick of this topic. If that is so then don't read this thread, or listen to the following link.

This is not a knock at RGII either for those who may think I am trying to make Luck seem better. This is nothing against RGIII who has also been impressive. But I'm tired of everyone saying RGIII is the better QB and the stats speak for themselves blah blah blah. I know what I've seen in Luck and anyone who knows QBs sees how impressive and under rated luck has been this year.

http://espn.go.com/e...play?id=8796005

This should settle things.

You saying "this should settle things" is funny. The fact is real simple - if someone thinks Luck is better, a reasonable argument can be made to support that. But the exact same argument could be made for RG111 or even Wilson for that matter. There is no definitve right answer.

That may not settle things but it is certainly a more reasonable point.

#5 basketballsteve

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:35 AM

Could Andrew Luck play in a college style option offense with a power running game, a big successful RB, and a short play action style passing game? If Luck played in this kind of offense would he be successful and would his stats be very different (read better)? Could Luck run Washington's offense? Yes, yes, and yes. Could RG 3 play in a high risk, big chunk passing offensive, where early in the season he sometimes had to pass 40-50 times in a game to have a chance at winning, behind a sub standard offensive line under constant pressure, with Rb's that had to make yardage thru thin holes? Would RG 3's stats look different in this type of offense (read worse)? Could RG 3 run the Colts/BA offensive system? Would RG 3 run the Colts offense better than Andrew? Maybe, yes, maybe, no.

Bottom line here's is what i am convinced of, NOBODY could have run the Colts offense better than Andrew did this year.

Here's what I suspect, a college read option offense run by a pro team is a passing phase and the success of that offense will pass as pro defenses get the opportunity to defend it more (like the Wildcat). By keeping RG 3 in a "mickey mouse" college offense for short term success the Redskins are limiting RG 3's growth and potential as a QB.

Let's compare Luck and RG3 is like comparing Apples and Oranges. My response is let's not.

#6 NewEra

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:51 AM

As an unbiased Colts fan I think otherwise. I don't feel Luck was the better QB. Just my opinion..

 

yes, noticed your distaste for luck all season long. noted...


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#7 theanarchist

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:55 AM

You saying "this should settle things" is funny. The fact is real simple - if someone thinks Luck is better, a reasonable argument can be made to support that. But the exact same argument could be made for RG111 or even Wilson for that matter. There is no definitve right answer.

That may not settle things but it is certainly a more reasonable point.

Very good point. I don't want to jump the gun here but with Luck, RG3, Wilson and a couple of the other rookie qB's that started most of the season it really reminds me of 83 draft. This group has a long way to go yet to be in that company but when you look at these guys vs Elway, Marino, Kelly and Ken O'brien this group has a chance to be just at impressive. All of these guys can run as well as throw.



#8 Thewholefnshow28

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:13 AM

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="GoColts8818" data-cid="378669"><p>I could really go for some cake right about now...</p></blockquote><br />A nice slice of cake sounds great!
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#9 BlueRedZone

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:35 AM

Its amazing that there are really 4 rookies that could be put in this year for ROY and you can make a solid case for each.

 

One thing I think that is being overlooked.

 

If RG3 lost his head coach for 12 games, would there even be a contest that its not rg3?

 

Remember we were expansion level at the start of the season.  New head coach, new OC,DC,STC.  Quite a turnaround.  I am happy for that, if Luck wins the ROY thats great if not we had a great year.  A strong case for rg3 is though that his team won its division.


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#10 GOCOLTS_ROLLTIDE

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

Its amazing that there are really 4 rookies that could be put in this year for ROY and you can make a solid case for each.

One thing I think that is being overlooked.

If RG3 lost his head coach for 12 games, would there even be a contest that its not rg3?

Remember we were expansion level at the start of the season. New head coach, new OC,DC,STC. Quite a turnaround. I am happy for that, if Luck wins the ROY thats great if not we had a great year. A strong case for rg3 is though that his team won its division.
that might be a good point but you could turn that around to amount to nothing. One hand I have an inconsistent cowboys team, and a depleted giants team do i even need to describe the eagles. Also the fact that nfc east was handed to them by tony nomo doesn't help either. Bottom line nfc east is highly overrated

#11 BleedBlu8792

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:06 AM

yes, noticed your distaste for luck all season long. noted...

Good, keep those "notes" going.. Here's to hoping he doesn't throw us out of the game Sunday..

#12 fatboy

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:29 AM

Lost in discussion is the fact that the Colts were hoping to have their one and only young promising offensive weapon in the fold for Luck.  Ironically, Pierre Garcon bolted to the Redskins.    



#13 FightLikeSin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:39 AM

Good, keep those "notes" going.. Here's to hoping he doesn't throw us out of the game Sunday..

 

You speak as if he's not the most contributing factor as to why we are in the playoffs to begin with... 


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#14 Tsarquise

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:57 AM

As an unbiased Colts fan I think otherwise. I don't feel Luck was the better QB. Just my opinion..

Same here. Another Colts fan here who thinks that Luck wasn't the best rookie QB and was a little over hyped.

But who cares. We are in the playoffs!

#15 jskinnz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:12 AM

As an unbiased Colts fan I think otherwise. I don't feel Luck was the better QB. Just my opinion..

 

Question for you.  If the Colts had to do the 2012 draft all over again, do you think they would change their pick of Luck?



#16 Timberwolf

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:15 AM

I know many of you are sick of this topic. If that is so then don't read this thread, or listen to the following link.

This is not a knock at RGII either for those who may think I am trying to make Luck seem better. This is nothing against RGIII who has also been impressive. But I'm tired of everyone saying RGIII is the better QB and the stats speak for themselves blah blah blah. I know what I've seen in Luck and anyone who knows QBs sees how impressive and under rated luck has been this year.

http://espn.go.com/e...play?id=8796005

This should settle things.

 

 How long have we been having the Manning/Brady debate?


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#17 smackdown

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

You speak as if he's not the most contributing factor as to why we are in the playoffs to begin with... 

 

He's not. The defense only allowing 18.2 points a game in the Colts' 11 victories is. Throw out the Lions game where interceptasaurus totally wet the bed and it's even lower...I see a scrappy defense that prevents turnovers from turning into points and a QB that has more in common with Mark Sanchez than Pey Pey.

 

Another thing, not a single person at Sports Illustrated picked Luck to be ROTY. 5 picked Griffin and 3 picked Wilson.

 

Enjoy:

 

http://sportsillustr...fl-awards-2012/

 

The real question Colts' fans need to be asking is "who's head is on the chopping block for blowing the first overall pick?"



#18 TKnight24

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

He's not. The defense only allowing 18.2 points a game in the Colts' 11 victories is. Throw out the Lions game where interceptasaurus totally wet the bed and it's even lower...I see a scrappy defense that prevents turnovers from turning into points and a QB that has more in common with Mark Sanchez than Pey Pey.

Another thing, not a single person at Sports Illustrated picked Luck to be ROTY. 5 picked Griffin and 3 picked Wilson.

Enjoy:

http://sportsillustr...fl-awards-2012/

The real question Colts' fans need to be asking is "who's head is on the chopping block for blowing the first overall pick?"

"Blowing the 1st Overall Pick" <---- *Sigh*

:facepalm:

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#19 smackdown

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:42 AM

"Blowing the 1st Overall Pick" <---- *Sigh*

:facepalm:

 

Grigson missed on the greatest rookie quarterback of all time. Heads should roll. To the guy below, the Colts' opponents more than likely looked past them on a routine basis.



#20 JoKeR

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:42 AM

Here a counter point for people who say we just had a weak schedule, Luck has better stats against playoff bound teams, much better. He has twice as many TDs as INTs(14-7 I think, don't remember the exact numbers) but against non playoff teams its nearly even (9-11?) completion % is slightly better. FJC where are ya?

#21 JoKeR

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:47 AM

He's not. The defense only allowing 18.2 points a game in the Colts' 11 victories is. Throw out the Lions game where interceptasaurus totally wet the bed and it's even lower...I see a scrappy defense that prevents turnovers from turning into points and a QB that has more in common with Mark Sanchez than Pey Pey.

Another thing, not a single person at Sports Illustrated picked Luck to be ROTY. 5 picked Griffin and 3 picked Wilson.

Enjoy:

http://sportsillustr...fl-awards-2012/

The real question Colts' fans need to be asking is "who's head is on the chopping block for blowing the first overall pick?"

O'rly ? : /

#22 Holden89

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

He's not. The defense only allowing 18.2 points a game in the Colts' 11 victories is. Throw out the Lions game where interceptasaurus totally wet the bed and it's even lower...I see a scrappy defense that prevents turnovers from turning into points and a QB that has more in common with Mark Sanchez than Pey Pey.

 

Another thing, not a single person at Sports Illustrated picked Luck to be ROTY. 5 picked Griffin and 3 picked Wilson.

 

Enjoy:

 

http://sportsillustr...fl-awards-2012/

 

The real question Colts' fans need to be asking is "who's head is on the chopping block for blowing the first overall pick?"

 

 

Okay, I can understand you thinking RG3 may be a bit better than Luck was this year, but really?  This is just plain trolling here.  Andrew Luck was not a miss (so far) by any means.  This kind of statement is completely ridiculous and just plain silly.

 

 

Come on, man....


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#23 The Fish

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

Luck is better and I'm not sure it's close, but this topic is so boring at this point....


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#24 FightLikeSin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

The real question Colts' fans need to be asking is "who's head is on the chopping block for blowing the first overall pick?"

 

lmao! yes. He's breaking too many records and getting us into the playoffs too early! Man he sucks! HEADS WILL ROLL I TELL YOU!!! Should have kept Painter around.

 

He's not. The defense only allowing 18.2 points a game in the Colts' 11 victories is. Throw out the Lions game where interceptasaurus totally wet the bed and it's even lower...I see a scrappy defense that prevents turnovers from turning into points and a QB that has more in common with Mark Sanchez than Pey Pey.

 

Another thing, not a single person at Sports Illustrated picked Luck to be ROTY. 5 picked Griffin and 3 picked Wilson.

 

Enjoy:

 

http://sportsillustr...fl-awards-2012/

 

I think the more telling stat is that the defense allowed 37.2 points per game in the 5 that they lost. Pretty nice to have that 18.2 points per game stat when 8 of those games are against offenses that are in the bottom 20 of average points per game.

 

You keep glorifying a bad defense and that's fine...but they allow 374.2 (26th) yards a game. The offense puts up 362.4 (10th) per game. That's bad for a team when your defense allows more yards than the offense gains. However, Mr. Luck has tied an NFL record of 7 game winning drives to make up for that terrible point differential (-30). 

 

Luck is the reason they are in the playoffs and he is the most important rookie QB of their respective teams. Am I supposed to be moved by SI writers not picking Luck? They do the same thing everyone else does. Look at QB ratings and pick the guy who has the highest percentage. It clearly benefits those in a dink and dunk offense. They don't consider the state of the team without the player, what amount of total offense the rookie contributes or WINS apparently.

 

RG3 can only take credit for 8.5 wins this season and that's with a RB that ran for 50.4% of what he threw! If you want a parallel, Donald Brown and Vick Ballard's yards COMBINED only stack up to 28.1% against Luck's production through the air. Wilson is a similar story to Griffin, with a helping hand in Marshawn Lynch who had 50.9% against his QB's numbers. 

 

That's what it's all about for me. Who couldn't do it without their QB's? The clear answer is Indianapolis. Given the state they were in last year and where they are today...he's the ROY. Although, I'd put Alfred Morris as a close second. 


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#25 IndyXLI

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

Why can't we just let this die? Washington has their guy, we have ours. Both picks worked out for each team. Every time we start a thread like this it just brings out the trolls. I am happy as a fan with our QB that can control the offense and beat you with his arm and legs. If Washington is happy with their QB handing off to Morris 30 times a game(like the game against the mighty Cowboys), so be it ;) . Sorry, I couldn't resist lol..

#26 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:00 PM

1 ) Its amazing that there are really 4 rookies that could be put in this year for ROY and you can make a solid case for each.

 

One thing I think that is being overlooked.

 

2 ) If RG3 lost his head coach for 12 games, would there even be a contest that its not rg3?

 

3) Remember we were expansion level at the start of the season.  New head coach, new OC,DC,STC.  Quite a turnaround.  I am happy for that, if Luck wins the ROY thats great if not we had a great year.  A strong case for rg3 is though that his team won its division.

1 ) It is a different NFL. The gave of football has evolved. High School QB's are running no-huddle offenses, some with the QB calling the plays. They are more advanced for their time in college, then they grow and become more advanced for their NFL careers. It's a far different world than say even 10 years ago.

 

2 ) That is a fair point in theory, but I believe it has it's flaws. To me Luck would have been affected more in a negative way if it would have been Arians with the illness as opposed to Pagano. RG3 no doubt would have had his development stunted if Shanahan had faced what Pagano has, but a lot of that in my opinion is because Mike is more hands on with the offense than Chuck is with the offense here. He has an offensive background, so there is no doubt it would affect a QB more in that scenario which is different from Andrew.  With that said, the QB/team/assistants/staff/etc have done a commendable job dealing with that issue.  While it is a huge negative for Pagano personally, and thankfully he has returned and his illness is in remission, I believe it has given the team a bit of edge, and by edge I don't really mean a benefit vs. other teams, but more of an edge from an attitude/inspiration perspective.

 

3 ) While some guys were discarded, I saw nothing of an expansion teams. The last 4(Houston, Cleveland, Jacksonville/Carolina), none of them had a Reggie Wayne, or an Austin Collie(though he didn't play much), or the Freeney/Mathis/Bethea/. There was "turnover" that mimicked an expansion team to a point, but to me the talent level that remained in place from last year far exceeded the typical expansion team. 



#27 BleedBlu8792

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

You speak as if he's not the most contributing factor as to why we are in the playoffs to begin with... 

 

Nope I don't believe he is... I don't look at QB's as "pitchers"...

 

 

 

I think the more telling stat is that the defense allowed 37.2 points per game in the 5 that they lost. Pretty nice to have that 18.2 points per game stat when 8 of those games are against offenses that are in the bottom 20 of average points per game.

 

Those 5 losses included the largest chunk of Lucks turnovers... A defense is going to be affected by their offense giving the opposing offense an extra 3-5 possessions a game. Granted our defense could have helped out in return but its hard to get QB's to throw to our DB's much like our QB was to theirs.

 

Well the offense really only faced 2 "good" defenses honestly (Chi and Hou) and 3 "decent" defenses (NE, Minn, GB)

 

 

You keep glorifying a bad defense and that's fine...but they allow 374.2 (26th) yards a game. The offense puts up 362.4 (10th) per game. That's bad for a team when your defense allows more yards than the offense gains. However, Mr. Luck has tied an NFL record of 7 game winning drives to make up for that terrible point differential (-30). 

 

Yards don't win games, POINTS do. The KC game and this last Houston game showed that. Without a doubt Luck did a good job of bringing the team back when for the most part it was him putting us behind. 

 

 

 

 It clearly benefits those in a dink and dunk offense. They don't consider the state of the team without the player, what amount of total offense the rookie contributes or WINS apparently.

 

Its called EFFICIENCY.. Why take away from a player who played the game smart yet gloat about another who has a serious issue with staring down receivers and throwing into double and triple coverage instead of taking what the defense gives him? Although I will admit, after going to the game last weekend, Luck is starting look at his checkdowns more, but I just find it rather odd its taken him this long to do it.

 

THAT dink and dunk offense... 27pts/g

 

Arians offense... 22pts/g

 

 

That's what it's all about for me. Who couldn't do it without their QB's? The clear answer is Indianapolis. Given the state they were in last year and where they are today...he's the ROY. Although, I'd put Alfred Morris as a close second

 

You think Washington, having one of the worst rushing games last year, could put Alfred Morris in the backfield behind Rex Grossman and have the season he's having this year with Griffin?

 

In the game with Kirk Cousins as the starter against Cleveland... Morris - 27 carries 87 yards(3.2 avg)

 

In our game against Cleveland... Ballard - 20 carries 84 yards (4.2 avg)

 

Griffin makes that offense go just as much as Luck makes ours go and I have no doubts that if Ballard and Morris were to switch spots, Ballard would have 1500+ yards. 



#28 joelmitchell

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

1.  Andrew Luck, best #1 pick by anybody in a long time.

2.  Ryan Grigson, already one of best GM's in league.

3.  Jim Irsay, great owner on all cards, even choice of music.

4.  Intire coaching staff, so far, A grade.



#29 FightLikeSin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:34 PM

Nope I don't believe he is... I don't look at QB's as "pitchers".... 

Fair enough. So, is it the bottom 20 run game, bottom 20 defense or bottom 20 offensive line that makes you think that the 10th best passing attack in the league is not the reason for the playoff berth?


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#30 BleedingBlue

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

It was a once in a generation talent pool at the position of QB, in fact we haven't seen the end of this talent pool either as I'm sure in the next few years we'll see others from this draft producing well at an NFL leve.

 

Seattle was very very fortunate, and the Colts and Skins are both going to be set for a long long time at the positon. Its really a matter of personal opinion at some point. There are people who like numbers, some like what they see on the field.

 

Its a different league. The spread option is the future of the NFL and guys like Kaepernick, Wilson and RG3 are going to be commonplace. Like FJC said, these kids are running no huddles in highschool. You also have the texas 12v 12 passing only leagues....Most of Mannings records will be shattered in the next two decades, believe me.

 

I'm wondering if Grigs had Wilson on his radar and if so what moves would he have made if he was our GM last year.


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#31 coltsfan_nyc

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:46 PM

You saying "this should settle things" is funny. The fact is real simple - if someone thinks Luck is better, a reasonable argument can be made to support that. But the exact same argument could be made for RG111 or even Wilson for that matter. There is no definitve right answer.

That may not settle things but it is certainly a more reasonable point.

 

I like Andrew Luck better. My Colts.....My Quarterback.....


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#32 Snowglobe

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

Regardless if RG3 has only 2 reads or whatnot he still has to execute them, plus he has made plays with his legs. I agree Luck has done more with less but this isn't MVP. Not sure why people care that much about it. The best qb to win ROTY was Roethlisberger. Even Vince Young won it. Really doesn't mean that much.


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#33 jskinnz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

I like Andrew Luck better. My Colts.....My Quarterback.....

 

See that is the basis for this argument.  Redskins fans would say the exact same thing and that is why this is comical debate to have.



#34 Dan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

All three QBs are very, very good and will probably have very illustrious careers, especially Luck and Griffin. I'm happy enough with that, without bickering over which has the edge, even though an objective argument can't be made after just rookie seasons in completely different situations. 



#35 coltsfan_nyc

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

See that is the basis for this argument.  Redskins fans would say the exact same thing and that is why this is comical debate to have.

 

I agree! I'm not saying RG3 is not amazing, he actually scares me with that offense, it appears to have no weakness, but I like Luck better because he plays for my team, not taking anything away from Robert at all.


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#36 BlueRedZone

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:15 PM

1 ) It is a different NFL. The gave of football has evolved. High School QB's are running no-huddle offenses, some with the QB calling the plays. They are more advanced for their time in college, then they grow and become more advanced for their NFL careers. It's a far different world than say even 10 years ago.
 
2 ) That is a fair point in theory, but I believe it has it's flaws. To me Luck would have been affected more in a negative way if it would have been Arians with the illness as opposed to Pagano. RG3 no doubt would have had his development stunted if Shanahan had faced what Pagano has, but a lot of that in my opinion is because Mike is more hands on with the offense than Chuck is with the offense here. He has an offensive background, so there is no doubt it would affect a QB more in that scenario which is different from Andrew.  With that said, the QB/team/assistants/staff/etc have done a commendable job dealing with that issue.  While it is a huge negative for Pagano personally, and thankfully he has returned and his illness is in remission, I believe it has given the team a bit of edge, and by edge I don't really mean a benefit vs. other teams, but more of an edge from an attitude/inspiration perspective.
 
3 ) While some guys were discarded, I saw nothing of an expansion teams. The last 4(Houston, Cleveland, Jacksonville/Carolina), none of them had a Reggie Wayne, or an Austin Collie(though he didn't play much), or the Freeney/Mathis/Bethea/. There was "turnover" that mimicked an expansion team to a point, but to me the talent level that remained in place from last year far exceeded the typical expansion team. 

I saw nothing of an expansion team either, the pundits were calling it so.

My point on RG3 about if he lost his head coach was in regards to the media love for him. They would be brining that up and thus it wouldn't even be a debate that RG3 was the ROY.

Don't get me wrong I would like to see Luck get it. But in all honesty I think RG3 gets it even though he has missed a game and couldn't finish another. To me the ROY needs to be there for his team all season so I would consider MOrris, Wilson, or Luck over RG3. Problem is though... RG3 has had more primetime games and people who vote will watch primetime games and highlights and thats about it.
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#37 FireJimCaldwell

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:30 PM

I saw nothing of an expansion team either, the pundits were calling it so.

My point on RG3 about if he lost his head coach was in regards to the media love for him. They would be brining that up and thus it wouldn't even be a debate that RG3 was the ROY.

Don't get me wrong I would like to see Luck get it. But in all honesty I think RG3 gets it even though he has missed a game and couldn't finish another. To me the ROY needs to be there for his team all season so I would consider MOrris, Wilson, or Luck over RG3. Problem is though... RG3 has had more primetime games and people who vote will watch primetime games and highlights and thats about it.

 

True, some were.

 

If Pagano was an offensive-minded coach, then I think that bullet point would be raised even more than it has been in connection with Luck. I've seen the Pagano's Illness used quite a bit as an arguing point for Luck to win it. If Pagano was as hands on with the offense as Shanahan then it would be amplified more than it is.

 

In another thread. I made the suggestion that the NFL needs a most valuable rookie so that the rookie awards fall in line with the MVP/OPOY/DPOY. As it stands now, in my opinion the OROY & DROY are more in line with the OPOY & DPOY than they are with MVP. A case could be made for those 4 guys, and to a lesser extent maybe Doug Martin. He had that huge game but Morris was the more consistent back of that class. With Morris & RGIII along with the maneuvering to get RGIII, and attempting to replace some of the picks is one reason I could make an argument for their GM as EOY. He's not going to win it, that will go to Grigson and deservedly. This year has been a fairly unique year where there can be a lot of arguments made for most of these awards. 



#38 Fx Stryker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:33 PM

*Reads Tim Hasselback* *Closes window*

 

What has he done, another than bag an okay looking wife?



#39 Malakai432

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

Regardless if RG3 has only 2 reads or whatnot he still has to execute them, plus he has made plays with his legs. I agree Luck has done more with less but this isn't MVP. Not sure why people care that much about it. The best qb to win ROTY was Roethlisberger. Even Vince Young won it. Really doesn't mean that much.

Definitely agree....

Vontae Davis is what happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object, then they have a kid! 

Dancing Monkey BAM!  :monkeydance: 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Bandit strikes again~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


#40 jvan1973

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:44 PM

*Reads Tim Hasselback* *Closes window*

What has he done, another than bag an okay looking wife?

His brother was pretty good once






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