AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[Fluke_33]

6 hours ago, Solid84 said:

8 catches, 101 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
8 catches, 97 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
 

One is Ridley, one is Pittman. 

Wow

9 hours ago, RollerColt said:

All three. All snaps. Looks like three rookies performing exactly as expected. 

Stroud caught his own first pass?  Crazy stat

[lollygagger8]

Richardson tied Luck (2012), Peyton Manning (1998), Jeff George (1990), and Bert Jones (1973) for the most passing touchdowns as a rookie in a season-opening start in franchise history.

 

 

 

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

9 hours ago, bluephantom87 said:

 

My two cents... The quicker that Shane realizes as a rookie hc that he is void of multiple skillset players on offense like he had with the Chargers and Eagles the better off he will be moving forward when it comes to situational football. Some of his staple plays will not work on a regular with this unit. The o-line is spotty, the run game is almost non existent and the receivers are avg at best minus Pittman. AR is the closest thing to elite talent on offense but he is a rookie that is raw. JT"s absence is GLARING!!!! If Taylor is going to be moved and is no longer in the plans long term then the Colts need to sign Hunt ASAP!

 

The defense is good enough to keep the Colts  competitive in most games. I'm keeping a close eye on special teams because I think Bubba will be missed. They lost lane discipline on that long punt return that led to the Jags go ahead td.

 

Overall I was pleased with the effort and saw some fight in the team against a playoff team. I think they are headed in the right direction now that we have a talented qb1 to groom but he can't do it alone. The focus should be to put as much playmaking talent around him so he can truly blossom. Go Colts!

 

Ballard doesn’t sign above average players once the season is under way. He waits until the off-season to do those things and usually it’s not for the better. This is 2 seasons now where Ballard has chosen to run things out without doing anything for RG. 
 

I don’t see the Colts doing anything for the RB position besides signing depth pieces.  

[Valpo2004]

8 hours ago, Solid84 said:

8 catches, 101 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
8 catches, 97 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
 

One is Ridley, one is Pittman. 

 

One was operating with 3rd year QB who is considered top 10.  The other was operating with a rookie "project" QB making his first start.  

[bluephantom87]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

“The quicker that Shane realizes that he is void of skillset players like he had with the Eagles and Chargers…”

 

Huh?    What the….???
 

Why do you think he doesn’t know that?   Spoiler alert!!   He knew that the day the Colts hired him back in February.   It’s now September.   He’s been coaching the team for 7 months.   Steichen knows what he has and doesn’t have.   

Sorry, but that was head scratching….. 

 

 

Not really. Let me start by saying I believe that Shane is a young upper tier type offensive mind that can develop young qbs by catering an offense to their skillset so my take was not a knock on him. In fact I was pleased in what I saw OVERALL from the team as I stated in my post. What I meant by the Shane comment was that I think he's simply believes too much in some of his offensive players that he has ON HAND by asking them to do things that they are incapable of doing. I'm quite sure that will change moving forward as Shane continues to learn his player's strengths and weaknesses against opposing defenses.

 

Think about this. In Philly that short yardage bunch package on 2 yds or less mostly on 4th downs was so successful that there was some talk about banning the play in which the backfield helped push the qb. In Shane's mind I'm sure he's thinking that this HIGHLY paid line SHOULD be able to get a 1 yd push. Nope! In fact this o-line has been subpar for awhile now. NCF do you think back in February when Shane was hired that he envisioned a less than mediocre running back by committee would be his option? I'm sure once the decision was made to take AR that Shane had visions of him being PAIRED with one of the most ELITE backs in all of football but money has derailed all that. By most accounts JT is fine. I don't know if that's true or not but the whole "ankle not healed yet" is a reported ploy. One way or the other something needs to get resolved with the JT situation. Now you have a big armed raw rookie qb behind a shakey o-line, with an almost non rushing attack in support to keep the defense honest and no deep threat at receiver to speak of because I don't believe Pierce is the answer. Again just MY take...

 

[stitches]

8 hours ago, Solid84 said:

8 catches, 101 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
8 catches, 97 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
 

One is Ridley, one is Pittman. 

Pittman is our only consistent reliable weapon on offense right now! I would have no problem paying him market value(20M?)... The problem with Pittman is not Pittman... it's the lack of a true dynamic no. 1 superstar. Marvin Jones Jr would do wonders for this offense. 

[1959Colts]

9 hours ago, Solid84 said:

8 catches, 101 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
8 catches, 97 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
 

One is Ridley, one is Pittman. 

Yes, almost identical statistically. I just thought Ridley looked more like a gamebreaker of the two. I agree Pitt is a very good WR. But my point is, I just don't think Pittman is the type of player, who gives our opponents headaches game planning for. When it comes time for his new contract, how high do we go? Do you think Pittman deserves to be paid in the upper echelon at his position?

[Solid84]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

Pittman is our only consistent reliable weapon on offense right now! I would have no problem paying him market value(20M?)... The problem with Pittman is not Pittman... it's the lack of a true dynamic no. 1 superstar. Marvin Jones Jr would do wonders for this offense. 

I agree. I would love to have Pittman as a top 10 WR2, but we REALLY need that WR1 to take the top off and make high level plays.

 

Also, I think @csmopar is right about Pitt having a tendency to disappear after he's made a series of plays. It's like as soon as the defense realises they need to shut him down he's just gone.

[Solid84]

18 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

Yes, almost identical statistically. I just thought Ridley looked more like a gamebreaker of the two. I agree Pitt is a very good WR. But my point is, I just don't think Pittman is the type of player, who gives our opponents headaches game planning for. When it comes time for his new contract, how high do we go? Do you think Pittman deserves to be paid in the upper echelon at his position?

I think Pittman is a top 10 WR2 - I would love to have him on the team at market price. But, we really need a true WR1 in my opinion.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

Pittman is our only consistent reliable weapon on offense right now! I would have no problem paying him market value(20M?)... The problem with Pittman is not Pittman... it's the lack of a true dynamic no. 1 superstar. Marvin Jones Jr would do wonders for this offense. 

 

Marvin Harrison Jr, right?

[#12.]

They're not bad enough to land Marvin II.  They'll be in most games.

[stitches]

15 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Marvin Harrison Jr, right?

Yeah... my bad. For some reason Marvin Jones has stuck in my mind like some brain worm and I swear I've made that mistake like 3 times already but I caught myself the previous times. 

 

So what did you think about AR's NFL debut, Superman? 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

If Pittman plays well next few games he will probably get extended by mid season. Same thing would of happened with Taylor if he would of just played.

[stitches]

17 minutes ago, #12. said:

They're not bad enough to land Marvin II.  They'll be in most games.

Brock Bowers might be a good consolation prize. This draft seems pretty good in the top 10. There are great players at all the most valuable positions. QBs, OTs, WRs and TE, EDGE, CBs... 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, stitches said:

Yeah... my bad. For some reason Marvin Jones has stuck in my mind like some brain worm and I swear I've made that mistake like 3 times already but I caught myself the previous times. 

 

So what did you think about AR's NFL debut, Superman? 

 

You had me looking up Marvin Jones' numbers, I thought I missed something lol. 

 

I thought he was fine. I'm glad he didn't seem overwhelmed, but after his preseason performances I expected him to be able to operate okay. He was pretty decisive most of the game, and he mostly made good decisions. He got tunnel vision on the pick, that happens to young QBs. Some of the same issues with fundamentals popped up a few times. Again, nothing surprising there. His individual performance was about what I expected. 

 

I'm not sounding any alarm bells, but I don't think Steichen did a great job calling plays or managing the game. I'm rewatching later today so I'll have a better handle on it after that, but I had to scratch my head at some of the decisions, especially in the second half. I almost always like aggressiveness on 4th down in plus territory, but with a young QB and not a lot of playmakers on offense, and the defense hanging tough, taking some of those points would have been smart. I would like to see Steichen weaponize Richardson's strengths a bit more. I think the Jags did a good job in the secondary, but we could still manufacture a deep shot here and there. Steichen is going to have to help Richardson more than he did yesterday. 

 

I think the OL is as big of problem as we thought it could be. Ryan Kelly got beat over and over, and maybe that's the weak spot on OL. Will Fries was decent, but it's still a weak spot. Run blocking was pretty bad all game. Everyone is blaming Deon Jackson, and he wasn't good, but the blockers didn't give much help. We need more at WR. I'd try McKenzie instead of Pierce, tbh; it's kind of weird that Pierce would get 60+ snaps, and McKenzie only got one. 

 

The defense was better than I expected, though. Some mistakes on the back end, as expected, but they were fast everywhere, and better on the back end than I could have hoped.

[lester]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

Steichen is going to have to help Richardson more than he did yesterday.

 

It is my interpretation of Shane's comments that he believes he was helping Anthony Richardson by keeping his playbook closed. If I understand correctly, Shane Steichen knows AR can make those plays but he didn't want the quarterback thinking he had to save the world in his first game. The leash was short on purpose (not due to lack of faith in AR's skillset).

[throwing BBZ]

2 hours ago, bluephantom87 said:

 

Not really. Let me start by saying I believe that Shane is a young upper tier type offensive mind that can develop young qbs by catering an offense to their skillset so my take was not a knock on him. In fact I was pleased in what I saw OVERALL from the team as I stated in my post. What I meant by the Shane comment was that I think he's simply believes too much in some of his offensive players that he has ON HAND by asking them to do things that they are incapable of doing. I'm quite sure that will change moving forward as Shane continues to learn his player's strengths and weaknesses against opposing defenses.

 

Think about this. In Philly that short yardage bunch package on 2 yds or less mostly on 4th downs was so successful that there was some talk about banning the play in which the backfield helped push the qb. In Shane's mind I'm sure he's thinking that this HIGHLY paid line SHOULD be able to get a 1 yd push. Nope! In fact this o-line has been subpar for awhile now. NCF do you think back in February when Shane was hired that he envisioned a less than mediocre running back by committee would be his option? I'm sure once the decision was made to take AR that Shane had visio

ns of him being PAIRED with one of the most ELITE backs in all of football but money has derailed all that. By most accounts JT is fine. I don't know if that's true or not but the whole "ankle not healed yet" is a reported ploy. One way or the other something needs to get resolved with the JT situation. Now you have a big armed raw rookie qb behind a shakey o-line, with an almost non rushing attack in support to keep the defense honest and no deep threat at receiver to speak of because I don't believe Pierce is the answer. Again just MY take...

 

 

  Perhaps Jax is a good, well coached team that out played us in certain aspects.

 We watched our D make a bunch of excellent plays too.

 Hey, what a novel idea that Steichen and his staff will use the players they have over say at least the first half of the season to build on our future.

 We can figure there will be 4-5 new starters next season as Steichen and Ballard look for and go after better talent fits.

 I would take a few years of Mike Evans. And love Austin Ekelor for half what Taylor believes he is worth.

[Superman]

23 minutes ago, lester said:

 

It is my interpretation of Shane's comments that he believes he was helping Anthony Richardson by keeping his playbook closed. If I understand correctly, Shane Steichen knows AR can make those plays but he didn't want the quarterback thinking he had to save the world in his first game. The leash was short on purpose (not due to lack of faith in AR's skillset).

 

So you send him out there for twelve 3rd downs, and five 4th downs, failing most of them, but you have the QB on a short leash? Aren't you already asking him to save the world if you're putting him in those situations? Give him the tools he needs to succeed in those situations.

[smittywerb]

11 hours ago, Solid84 said:

8 catches, 101 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
8 catches, 97 yards, 1 TD, 11 targets. 
 

One is Ridley, one is Pittman. 

Even with that said, I’ll take Ridley production over Pittman.  Majority of Pittman yards came from the screen.  Now it took Pittman to have the vision but let’s not take away from the lineman and tight end out there that was blocking very well on that play.  That play happened because of Shane calling a good rpo call, the blockers doing a fantastic job, and Pittman a vision.  In other words, Pittman wasn’t beating his man one on one and going out there and getting yards.
 

Other than that, Pittman didn’t break the game.  Ridley was out there eating.  Good performance by both but Ridley catches gave his team good field position while pittman got yards…besides the touchdown.  Ridley production came from stretching the defense while pittmans was from short yard throws.  I mean, the touchdown pass was even a screen.  On paper, pittman is a WR1.  But eye test, he’s still a WR2 to me.  You can’t go missing in the first half.  WR1s don’t do that. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, smittywerb said:

Even with that said, I’ll take Ridley production over Pittman.  Majority of Pittman yards came from the screen.  Now it took Pittman to have the vision but let’s not take away from the lineman and tight end out there that was blocking very well on that play.  That play happened because of Shane calling a good rpo call, the blockers doing a fantastic job, and Pittman a vision.  
 

Other than that, Pittman didn’t break the game.  Ridley was out there eating.  Good performance by both but Ridley catches gave his team good field position while pittman got yards…besides the touchdown.  Ridley production came from stretching the defense while pittmans was from short yard throws.  I mean, the touchdown pass was even a screen.  On paper, pittman is a WR1.  But eye test, he’s still a WR2 to me.  You can’t go missing in the first half.  WR1s don’t do that. 

Moore shut Ridley down the second half.

[smittywerb]

1 minute ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Moore shut Ridley down the second half.

that was a combination of Moore and the help over the top.  WR1 demand that kind of attention.  Meanwhile, our team saw stacked boxes pretty much all game long until they started playing prevent.

 

even with that, if you saw yesterdays game and think that pittmans performance was just as good as Ridley’s, then you’re going to be disappointed this year with Pittman.  I hope I have to eat crow because I would love nothing more than Pittman being ARs dog, but we’ve been watching Pittman since he got here.  He’s a very good possession wr, but he’s not a game breaker.

 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

So you send him out there for twelve 3rd downs, and five 4th downs, failing most of them, but you have the QB on a short leash? Aren't you already asking him to save the world if you're putting him in those situations? Give him the tools he needs to succeed in those situations.

Shane going for it would of been right decision if this had been a experienced QB. All in all he did a great job giving him easy throws. But he hid risk taking was a little much on 4th down with a young QB.

Just now, smittywerb said:

that was a combination of Moore and the help over the top.  WR1 demand that kind of attention.  Meanwhile, our team saw stacked boxes pretty much all game long until they started playing prevent.

It’s called adjustments. Ridley got his first half Pittman got his second half.

[smittywerb]

12 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Shane going for it would of been right decision if this had been a experienced QB. All in all he did a great job giving him easy throws. But he hid risk taking was a little much on 4th down with a young QB.

It’s called adjustments. Ridley got his first half Pittman got his second half.

it is called adjustments, Ridley’s presence allowed others like engram to shine.  That happens when you have a WR1 who’s getting after it.  Outside of the screen, when did Pittman get his yards?  I’m going to check the game log.  Remember, that screen was pretty much half of pittmans yards.

 

 

Edit:  just checked.

 

pittman caught 3 passes in the third:

- 16 yards (short throw)

- 8 yards (short throw)

- 39 yards (rpo screen)

the rest of his catches came in the 4th during that 17 play drive when the jags played prevent.  as mentioned above, besides the screen pass, where is the game breaking WR1?  What WR1 you know that can’t stretch the field.  Every catch from the ESPN log for Pittman was on a short pass.  
 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401547404

[Superman]

14 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

even with that, if you saw yesterdays game and think that pittmans performance was just as good as Ridley’s, then you’re going to be disappointed this year with Pittman.  I hope I have to eat crow because I would love nothing more than Pittman being ARs dog, but we’ve been watching Pittman since he got here.  He’s a very good possession wr, but he’s not a game breaker.

 

Okay, but so what? Pittman produced pretty well, especially for a possession WR. Why does the response have to be 'yeah, but he's not a game breaker'? 

[smittywerb]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Okay, but so what? Pittman produced pretty well, especially for a possession WR. Why does the response have to be 'yeah, but he's not a game breaker'? 

because WR1s are game breakers.  I never said he didn’t play well.  I commented I’d rather have Ridley’s production over pittmans because his was more WR1-esque.  
 

my original comment was in reply to someone who compared stats of Ridley and pittman to reply to someone else who was saying they don’t see pittman as a top tier receiver.  I’m just saying stats don’t tell the whole story. 

[indyagent17]

18 hours ago, csmopar said:

Going in draft order: all stats per nfl dot com

 

Young- 20/38, 52% completion, 2 INTs, 1 PTD, 145 yards, QBR:48.8(yahoo puts him at 34.9)

 

Stroud- 28/44, 64 % completion, 0 INTs, 0 TDs, 244 yards, QBR-78.0(yahoo puts him at 84.3)

 

AR- 24/37, 65% completion, 1 PTD, 1 RTD, 1 INT, 223 yards, QBR- 89.8(yahoo fantasy ranks him at 108.2)

You can see hope finally after so many years. 

[indyagent17]

Just imagine if AR had better receivers!! Cox, Pierce and Jackson were horrible 

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, smittywerb said:

because WR1s are game breakers.  I never said he didn’t play well.  I commented I’d rather have Ridley’s production over pittmans because his was more WR1-esque.  
 

my original comment was in reply to someone who compared stats of Ridley and pittman to reply to someone else who was saying they don’t see pittman as a top tier receiver.  I’m just saying stats don’t tell the whole story. 

 

I agree, but if we're getting that production from Pittman every week, it seems unnecessary to nitpick his performance. Sure, we need more help at WR, but we know what he is, and he's doing his job.

[w87r]

PFF hasn't released all graded yet, but here is Bryce Young's.

 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-1-highlights-notable-grades-standouts-sunday-games-2023

 

Per PFF article above:

"QB BRYCE YOUNG, CAROLINA PANTHERS

PFF Grade: 31.4

Young struggled heavily in his NFL debut, producing a PFF passing grade of just 36.3. From 42 dropbacks, he didn’t make any big-time throws and had two turnover-worthy plays. His receivers accounted for 63.0% of his passing yards after the catch, the fifth most of any quarterback this week. Despite the two turnover-worthy plays, Young was relatively risk-averse in this game, finishing with eight throwaways, the third most in a game since PFF charting began back in 2006."

[smittywerb]

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I agree, but if we're getting that production from Pittman every week, it seems unnecessary to nitpick his performance. Sure, we need more help at WR, but we know what he is, and he's doing his job.

which I agree with, just don’t think he’s a top tier receiver and should get top tier money.  

[RollerColt]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

We need more at WR. I'd try McKenzie instead of Pierce, tbh; it's kind of weird that Pierce would get 60+ snaps, and McKenzie only got one. 

I guess that's where his "No trust" post came from over the weekend. 

[Superman]

Just now, smittywerb said:

which I agree with, just don’t think he’s a top tier receiver and should get top tier money.  

 

Define "top tier money." I think if Pittman has production like he had in 2021, or like he set the pace for yesterday, then his market is pretty well defined at around $20m/year, maybe a little bit more. Somewhere in between Terry McLaurin ($22.8m) and Diontae Johnson ($18.3m).

 

Top tier is currently $25-30m, but we're still waiting for Justin Jefferson and Jamarr Chase, so that might go up a bit when their deals are done. 

 

So if 2023 sees Pittman put up 100 catches, 1,200 yards, 7+ TDs, and our new QB gets comfortable with him, are the Colts going to pay him the going rate for a good, second tier WR? They probably will. And if you want someone better than him, you're either looking for highly regarded draft pick, or a $30m/year player in free agency (or both, if you want Tee Higgins who was ironically goose-egged yesterday but will probably be tagged, or Jaylen Waddle who still has another year on his rookie deal). If Richardson looks like he's our guy, we probably need to consider keeping Pittman AND making another meaningful addition at WR.

 

And I'm not writing off Pierce yet, but it's not encouraging that he played 66 snaps and we threw it 37 times, but he only had 3 targets and 1 catch. 

 

Long story short, I think Pittman is one of positives from yesterday's game. And he's probably going to get a nice contract when he hits the market if he keeps this up for the rest of the season.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

18 minutes ago, w87r said:

PFF hasn't released all graded yet, but here is Bryce Young's.

 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-1-highlights-notable-grades-standouts-sunday-games-2023

 

Per PFF article above:

"QB BRYCE YOUNG, CAROLINA PANTHERS

PFF Grade: 31.4

Young struggled heavily in his NFL debut, producing a PFF passing grade of just 36.3. From 42 dropbacks, he didn’t make any big-time throws and had two turnover-worthy plays. His receivers accounted for 63.0% of his passing yards after the catch, the fifth most of any quarterback this week. Despite the two turnover-worthy plays, Young was relatively risk-averse in this game, finishing with eight throwaways, the third most in a game since PFF charting began back in 2006."

Reich really did not help him at all. 
 

Stroud looked ok playing on the road playing the ravens. 

[krunk]

I feel good in my thinking that the Texans will be our first win.   I think we are going to get after Stroud and make it hard for him while it's early in his development. But to help him the D out we've got to score more than 14 pts on offense.  I think we will as long as we get any kind of life from our running game.  Can't have AR out there doing it all by himself. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

16 minutes ago, krunk said:

I feel good in my thinking that the Texans will be our first win.   I think we are going to get after Stroud and make it hard for him while it's early in his development. But to help him the D out we've got to score more than 14 pts on offense.  I think we will as long as we get any kind of life from our running game.  Can't have AR out there doing it all by himself. 

Texans Oline has some injuries. I think if the dline plays like yesterday they will give stroud trouble. Texans don’t have weapons like jags. We really need to win because we have ravens and rams next. Although we seem to always know how to stop Lamar. Ravens had a lot of injuries again yesterday.

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, stitches said:

Pittman is our only consistent reliable weapon on offense right now! I would have no problem paying him market value(20M?)... The problem with Pittman is not Pittman... it's the lack of a true dynamic no. 1 superstar. Marvin Jones Jr would do wonders for this offense. 

I think you meant Marvin HARRISON Jr.   
 

And yes he would.   

[FanFromtheWasteland]

7 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

Richardson tied Luck (2012), Peyton Manning (1998), Jeff George (1990), and Bert Jones (1973) for the most passing touchdowns as a rookie in a season-opening start in franchise history.

 

 

 

Jeff George. Ugh.  What a waste of a uniform

[King Colt]

Stroud threw some passes that were way off and let's not omit Tannehill because he looked like a rookie throwing three INTs with a 50% completion rate. All the football shows agreed on Tannehill's performance being a flat zero.

[King Colt]

2 minutes ago, FanFromtheWasteland said:

Jeff George. Ugh.  What a waste of a uniform

Great but ten years straight of losing the season opener.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, King Colt said:

Stroud threw some passes that were way off and let's not omit Tannehill because he looked like a rookie throwing three INTs with a 50% completion rate. All the football shows agreed on Tannehill's performance being a flat zero.

Tannehill isn’t going to have a job much longer lol.