AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[smittywerb]

21 hours ago, w87r said:

Levis named starter going forward 

 

 

 

 

AFC South could really become the best division in the NFL.  Given all of the teams build winners.

[RollerColt]

You know, the AFC South teams gets a bad rap but if you look at the history, even during the Manning years there were some times where the Jags and Titans were tough teams: 

 

'98 Jaguars were division leaders (we weren't in that division yet but still)

'99 Jags go 14-2 and the TItans go 13-3 (we still weren't in the division but those two teams were the top of the AFC)

'00 Titans dominate at 13-3. 

'01 Titans and Jags fall off. 

'02 New division and the Titans go 11-5 to be the first AFC South champs. 

'03 Titans share a record of 12-4 with us, we win the head to head so we get the division championship.

'04 We go 12-4, the rest fall off. 

'05 We have one of the best years ever at 14-2, but the Jags also went 12-4. 

'06 Super Bowl year for us, Titans and Jags each go 8-8. 

'07 We go 13-3, Jaguars again nip at the heels with an 11-5 record. 

'08 The Titans pass us and win the division at 13-3, while we go 12-4.

'09 Near perfect season going 14-2 Super Bowl loss, Texans begin to rise and go a respectable 9-7. 

'10 Entire AFC South falls a bit, we go 10-6. 

 

So during all of those Manning years, our divisional opponents were playing some damn good football too. You don't just win 12-14 games without being a good team. Not as weak as some claim! 

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

You know, the AFC South teams gets a bad rap but if you look at the history, even during the Manning years there were some times where the Jags and Titans were tough teams: 

 

'98 Jaguars were division leaders (we weren't in that division yet but still)

'99 Jags go 14-2 and the TItans go 13-3 (we still weren't in the division but those two teams were the top of the AFC)

'00 Titans dominate at 13-3. 

'01 Titans and Jags fall off. 

'02 New division and the Titans go 11-5 to be the first AFC South champs. 

'03 Titans share a record of 12-4 with us, we win the head to head so we get the division championship.

'04 We go 12-4, the rest fall off. 

'05 We have one of the best years ever at 14-2, but the Jags also went 12-4. 

'06 Super Bowl year for us, Titans and Jags each go 8-8. 

'07 We go 13-3, Jaguars again nip at the heels with an 11-5 record. 

'08 The Titans pass us and win the division at 13-3, while we go 12-4.

'09 Near perfect season going 14-2 Super Bowl loss, Texans begin to rise and go a respectable 9-7. 

'10 Entire AFC South falls a bit, we go 10-6. 

 

So during all of those Manning years, our divisional opponents were playing some damn good football too. You don't just win 12-14 games without being a good team. Not as weak as some claim! 

Haven't you got the word by now, the division is only bad when we win it according to some  

[Solid84]

43 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

You know, the AFC South teams gets a bad rap but if you look at the history, even during the Manning years there were some times where the Jags and Titans were tough teams: 

 

'98 Jaguars were division leaders (we weren't in that division yet but still)

'99 Jags go 14-2 and the TItans go 13-3 (we still weren't in the division but those two teams were the top of the AFC)

'00 Titans dominate at 13-3. 

'01 Titans and Jags fall off. 

'02 New division and the Titans go 11-5 to be the first AFC South champs. 

'03 Titans share a record of 12-4 with us, we win the head to head so we get the division championship.

'04 We go 12-4, the rest fall off. 

'05 We have one of the best years ever at 14-2, but the Jags also went 12-4. 

'06 Super Bowl year for us, Titans and Jags each go 8-8. 

'07 We go 13-3, Jaguars again nip at the heels with an 11-5 record. 

'08 The Titans pass us and win the division at 13-3, while we go 12-4.

'09 Near perfect season going 14-2 Super Bowl loss, Texans begin to rise and go a respectable 9-7. 

'10 Entire AFC South falls a bit, we go 10-6. 

 

So during all of those Manning years, our divisional opponents were playing some damn good football too. You don't just win 12-14 games without being a good team. Not as weak as some claim! 

There are a lot of people saying the AFC South is bad and use it as a reason why we should win it or compete for it every season including this one.

 

So I added it up. During the Ballard era the average win/loss of the AFC South has been lower than any other division in the AFC.

 

Edit:

Just realised the numbers are probably impossible to make out on the image, so here goes:

2022

• AFC North 9.50 - 7.25
• AFC East 9.25 - 7.50
• AFC West 8.75 - 8.25
• AFC South 6 - 11

 

2021

• AFC West 9.5 - 7.5
• AFC North 8.88 - 8.13
• AFC East 8.50 - 8.50
• AFC South 7-10

 

2020

• AFC North 9.63 - 6.38
• AFC West 8.50 - 7.50
• AFC East 8.00 - 8.00
• AFC South 6.75 - 9.25

 

2019

• AFC East 8.50 - 7.50
• AFC South 8.00 - 8.00
• AFC West 7.75 - 8.25
• AFC North 7.50 - 8.50

 

2018

• AFC South 8.75 - 7.25
• AFC West 8.50 - 7.50
• AFC North 8.25 - 7.75
• AFC East 7.00 - 9.00

 

2017

• AFC East 8.25 - 7.75
• AFC West 7.50 - 8.50
• AFC North 7.25 - 8.75
• AFC South 6.75 - 9.25

 

Across all 6 season:

• AFC North 8.50 - 7.79
• AFC West 8.42 - 7.92
• AFC East 8.25 - 8.04
• AFC South 7.21 - 9.13

 

 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

The biggest issue for Stroud and the Texans will be retaining their hot commodity OC, Bobby Slowik.

 

https://www.houstontexans.com/team/coaches-roster/bobby-slowik

 

You need stability for a young gun like Stroud. As far as OCs are concerned, the Jaguars, Texans and the Colts have it better (with Jaguars and Colts having those as HCs), followed by the Titans in last, which will be Levis' biggest disadvantage unless they improve the quality of their offense.

 

Would you offer him a big raise right away to try to buy another season out of him? Would it even matter?

 

This is why I definitely prefer an offensive HC, but regardless, teams should have a deep stable of offensive assistants, and a succession plan. 

[RollerColt]

15 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

There are a lot of people saying the AFC South is bad and use it as a reason why we should win it or compete for it every season including this one.

 

So I added it up. During the Ballard era the average win/loss of the AFC South has been lower than any other division in the AFC.

 

Edit:

Just realised the numbers are probably impossible to make out on the image, so here goes:

2022

• AFC North 9.50 - 7.25
• AFC East 9.25 - 7.50
• AFC West 8.75 - 8.25
• AFC South 6 - 11

 

2021

• AFC West 9.5 - 7.5
• AFC North 8.88 - 8.13
• AFC East 8.50 - 8.50
• AFC South 7-10

 

2020

• AFC North 9.63 - 6.38
• AFC West 8.50 - 7.50
• AFC East 8.00 - 8.00
• AFC South 6.75 - 9.25

 

2019

• AFC East 8.50 - 7.50
• AFC South 8.00 - 8.00
• AFC West 7.75 - 8.25
• AFC North 7.50 - 8.50

 

2018

• AFC South 8.75 - 7.25
• AFC West 8.50 - 7.50
• AFC North 8.25 - 7.75
• AFC East 7.00 - 9.00

 

2017

• AFC East 8.25 - 7.75
• AFC West 7.50 - 8.50
• AFC North 7.25 - 8.75
• AFC South 6.75 - 9.25

 

Across all 6 season:

• AFC North 8.50 - 7.79
• AFC West 8.42 - 7.92
• AFC East 8.25 - 8.04
• AFC South 7.21 - 9.13

 

 

That’s fair. 

[chad72]

22 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Would you offer him a big raise right away to try to buy another season out of him? Would it even matter?

 

This is why I definitely prefer an offensive HC, but regardless, teams should have a deep stable of offensive assistants, and a succession plan. 

 

To the bolded, absolutely yes to both.

 

Pederson and Steichen bring the floor and stability to their teams on offense. When was the last time, half way into a season, we never scored less than 20 points in any single game?

 

The other teams will soon realize that will be necessary, that stability for the young QB. Word is Mike Vrabel might be sought after by the Patriots for draft picks if Belichick is done?? We will see if that is true. 

[husker61]

7 hours ago, BeanDiasucci said:

 

When was that? Stroud had an okay game in his first game against Baltimore's tough D and then was pretty great in games 2, 3, and 4. You don't remember the 384 yards against the Colts in Game 2? 

 

 

 

 

lol. Nothing like facts getting in the way of what you want to be a good theory.

[Dingus McGirt]

After seeing the Panthers-Colts game in person, when it comes to Bryce Young — a scene from the classic film “Rudy” comes to mind.  Rudy’s college pal and his girl are in the stands.  When Rudy finally gets in the game, his pal exclaims- “he’s so little!”  And there you have it.

[RollerColt]

 

 

[Colt.45]

On 11/8/2023 at 12:35 PM, RollerColt said:

You know, the AFC South teams gets a bad rap but if you look at the history, even during the Manning years there were some times where the Jags and Titans were tough teams: 

 

'98 Jaguars were division leaders (we weren't in that division yet but still)

'99 Jags go 14-2 and the TItans go 13-3 (we still weren't in the division but those two teams were the top of the AFC)

'00 Titans dominate at 13-3. 

'01 Titans and Jags fall off. 

'02 New division and the Titans go 11-5 to be the first AFC South champs. 

'03 Titans share a record of 12-4 with us, we win the head to head so we get the division championship.

'04 We go 12-4, the rest fall off. 

'05 We have one of the best years ever at 14-2, but the Jags also went 12-4. 

'06 Super Bowl year for us, Titans and Jags each go 8-8. 

'07 We go 13-3, Jaguars again nip at the heels with an 11-5 record. 

'08 The Titans pass us and win the division at 13-3, while we go 12-4.

'09 Near perfect season going 14-2 Super Bowl loss, Texans begin to rise and go a respectable 9-7. 

'10 Entire AFC South falls a bit, we go 10-6. 

 

So during all of those Manning years, our divisional opponents were playing some damn good football too. You don't just win 12-14 games without being a good team. Not as weak as some claim! 

Good perspective

[Colt.45]

On 11/8/2023 at 1:25 PM, Superman said:

 

Would you offer him a big raise right away to try to buy another season out of him? Would it even matter?

 

This is why I definitely prefer an offensive HC, but regardless, teams should have a deep stable of offensive assistants, and a succession plan. 

Stability doesn't hurt but honestly if Stroud's as good as I think he is, he is going to be one of those guys who MAKES coaches rather than the other way round. I think he's that good. Slow should ride this wave as long as he can and cash out nicely 

[Superman]

35 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

Stability doesn't hurt but honestly if Stroud's as good as I think he is, he is going to be one of those guys who MAKES coaches rather than the other way round. I think he's that good. Slow should ride this wave as long as he can and cash out nicely 

 

I would say the same thing about young Andrew Luck, but I don't think it helped his development to have a new OC and playbook in his second year. Especially not when the replacement can be as bad as Pep Hamilton turned out to be.

 

The days of rock solid stability on the coaching staff are probably gone, I get that. But when you have a defensive minded HC and a young QB, there's more potential for disruption to the QB's development. If you have an offensive minded HC, you know the offensive system will remain in place even if the OC leaves. 

 

Hopefully the Texans have considered this already and have a succession plan in place, so that if the OC leaves, there's someone ready to step up without potentially changing the framework of the offense every couple of years. The Pats did a good job of this, transitioning from Weis, to McDaniels, to O'Brien, back to McDaniels. But like you said, they had a coach maker at QB.

 

Bobby Slowik is a Shanahan guy. What he's doing with Stroud, and how it's helping Tank Dell and Nico Collins, should be no surprise. But he might be this year's Ben Johnson, a guy who decides to hold off on making the jump right away.

[bluephantom87]

30 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I would say the same thing about young Andrew Luck, but I don't think it helped his development to have a new OC and playbook in his second year. Especially not when the replacement can be as bad as Pep Hamilton turned out to be.

 

The days of rock solid stability on the coaching staff are probably gone, I get that. But when you have a defensive minded HC and a young QB, there's more potential for disruption to the QB's development. If you have an offensive minded HC, you know the offensive system will remain in place even if the OC leaves. 

 

Hopefully the Texans have considered this already and have a succession plan in place, so that if the OC leaves, there's someone ready to step up without potentially changing the framework of the offense every couple of years. The Pats did a good job of this, transitioning from Weis, to McDaniels, to O'Brien, back to McDaniels. But like you said, they had a coach maker at QB.

 

Bobby Slowik is a Shanahan guy. What he's doing with Stroud, and how it's helping Tank Dell and Nico Collins, should be no surprise. But he might be this year's Ben Johnson, a guy who decides to hold off on making the jump right away.

 

So true. Look at Tua's play once the Phins hired an offensive guy as hc in McDaniel.  Another coach off the Shanahan tree. The focus also shifted to offensive playmakers and speed. I think from the rumblings coming from the Bills and Chargers (who both have defensive hcs) as of late it might be hard for the Texans or Lions to keep Slowik or Johnson if either of those jobs become available. 

[RollerColt]

2 minutes ago, bluephantom87 said:

 

So true. Look at Tua's play once the Phins hired an offensive guy as hc in McDaniel.  Another coach off the Shanahan tree. The focus also shifted to offensive playmakers and speed. I think from the rumblings coming from the Bills and Chargers (who both have defensive hcs) as of late it might be hard for the Texans or Lions to keep Slowik or Johnson if either of those jobs become available. 

Slowik with Herbert could be a deadly combination. 

 

Of course the biggest hurdle the Chargers seem to face every single season is the war of attrition. That team gets injured more than any other I've known. 

[dw49]

Watching Young tonight vs Chicago. This guy looks to be the worst of the 4 by a LARGE margin, It's early and his situation is tough but I'm just replying to the thread. 

[JediXMan]

I think this will be Frank Reich last season as a coach for awhile.

[ShuteAt168]

8 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I would say the same thing about young Andrew Luck, but I don't think it helped his development to have a new OC and playbook in his second year. Especially not when the replacement can be as bad as Pep Hamilton turned out to be.

 

The days of rock solid stability on the coaching staff are probably gone, I get that. But when you have a defensive minded HC and a young QB, there's more potential for disruption to the QB's development. If you have an offensive minded HC, you know the offensive system will remain in place even if the OC leaves. 

 

Hopefully the Texans have considered this already and have a succession plan in place, so that if the OC leaves, there's someone ready to step up without potentially changing the framework of the offense every couple of years. The Pats did a good job of this, transitioning from Weis, to McDaniels, to O'Brien, back to McDaniels. But like you said, they had a coach maker at QB.

 

Bobby Slowik is a Shanahan guy. What he's doing with Stroud, and how it's helping Tank Dell and Nico Collins, should be no surprise. But he might be this year's Ben Johnson, a guy who decides to hold off on making the jump right away.

Man, it’s painful to be reminded of the pitiful staff that the Colts put in place for a likely HOF quarterback. 

[Solid84]

23 hours ago, RollerColt said:

 

 

Watching this and seeing how many times Young is on his behind or running while his receivers haven't even turned around it's obvious they have more issues than QB play. Their Oline is trash and Reich's playdesign is 20 years behind the curve.

[RollerColt]

5 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

Watching this and seeing how many times Young is on his behind or running while his receivers haven't even turned around it's obvious they have more issues than QB play. Their Oline is trash and Reich's playdesign is 20 years behind the curve.

It's super basic. And what's worse? They did the same exact plays last night against the Bears: send the receivers down in a line, have them stop and turn around... Booooorrrrrriiiiiinnnnnnggggggggg. 

 

Nobody is scared of that offense. 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

2 hours ago, Solid84 said:

Watching this and seeing how many times Young is on his behind or running while his receivers haven't even turned around it's obvious they have more issues than QB play. Their Oline is trash and Reich's playdesign is 20 years behind the curve.

Reich has lost the touch (if he ever had it in first place, not sure). Yes, I know that he has given up play calling on offensive the last couple of games, but he is done as a NFL HC, sorry. We should know of all people, right?! 

[ADnum1]

Just saw that Stroud has a 14 to 1 TD to INT ratio which is the BEST in the NFL.

 

Not just among rookies but all of the NFL.

[Solid84]

22 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

Just saw that Stroud has a 14 to 1 TD to INT ratio which is the BEST in the NFL.

 

Not just among rookies but all of the NFL.

If the Texans get another playmaker on offense and a few on defense they are going to be scary good.

[SR711]

2 hours ago, RollerColt said:

It's super basic. And what's worse? They did the same exact plays last night against the Bears: send the receivers down in a line, have them stop and turn around... Booooorrrrrriiiiiinnnnnnggggggggg. 

 

Nobody is scared of that offense. 

Not defending Reich because the QB school video is pretty damning, but one has to wonder how much of those route concepts are due to the Panthers not having dudes who can win with speed, change of direction, etc.

 

I will say that video does illustrate why the all 22 is so crucial when evaluating QB play especially because it does give context as to why Young looked so bad last week even outside of the INTs to Moore.

[RollerColt]

8 minutes ago, SR711 said:

Not defending Reich because the QB school video is pretty damning, but one has to wonder how much of those route concepts are due to the Panthers not having dudes who can win with speed, change of direction, etc.

 

I will say that video does illustrate why the all 22 is so crucial when evaluating QB play especially because it does give context as to why Young looked so bad last week even outside of the INTs to Moore.

Oh personnel is definitely one of the contributing factors here. 

 

The Panthers have 0 weapons on offense. They traded everything they had away to get Young, and had nothing left. 

[Solid84]

25 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Oh personnel is definitely one of the contributing factors here. 

 

The Panthers have 0 weapons on offense. They traded everything they had away to get Young, and had nothing left. 

Meanwhile the guy they traded, DJ Moore, is doing great in Chicago. I swear, he's the most underrated WR in the league. If he was with a contender his production would be the equal of any WR.

[Nesjan3]

Young looks like a huge bust. One could argue he has nothing around him but Stroud is looking like the next superstar with probably an equally bad roster. Levis looks good in two starts, we'll see. AR I just hope we get a chance to find out. Im going to cringe everytime he takes a hit. 

[Boondoggle]

15 hours ago, JediXMan said:

I think this will be Frank Reich last season as a coach for awhile.

Frank is too nice to be the guy running the show.  He's an OC and I think one of the better ones, because he has a strong tendency to balance his attack.

[Colt.45]

17 minutes ago, Boondoggle said:

Frank is too nice to be the guy running the show.  He's an OC and I think one of the better ones, because he has a strong tendency to balance his attack.

Too nice? Nah, heard that with Dungy, Caldwell, Lovie, etc. It simply isn't factual.

 

I defended Frank Reich to the very end, and still believe he is a good coach so I might be biased ever so slightly but this league is ultimately about talent and innovation....mainly talent though. How's McVay looked devoid of a functional QB? How bout the greatest coach of all time? How's he looking?

 

The issues Reich faces now are being overly simplified and we've addressed many over time on these pages. Ultimately this is a results business so he's going to face the music sooner rather than later but it's got nothing to do with niceness or toughness or any of those emo-platitudes. When he had quality in Indy, his teams were better than they should have been. 

[RollerColt]

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

Meanwhile the guy they traded, DJ Moore, is doing great in Chicago. I swear, he's the most underrated WR in the league. If he was with a contender his production would be the equal of any WR.

Don’t forget trading CMC as well. Christian could’ve been a huge asset for that team with a rookie QB right about now. 

[Boondoggle]

On 11/10/2023 at 2:01 PM, Colt.45 said:

Too nice? Nah, heard that with Dungy, Caldwell, Lovie, etc. It simply isn't factual.

 

I defended Frank Reich to the very end, and still believe he is a good coach so I might be biased ever so slightly but this league is ultimately about talent and innovation....mainly talent though. How's McVay looked devoid of a functional QB? How bout the greatest coach of all time? How's he looking?

 

The issues Reich faces now are being overly simplified and we've addressed many over time on these pages. Ultimately this is a results business so he's going to face the music sooner rather than later but it's got nothing to do with niceness or toughness or any of those emo-platitudes. When he had quality in Indy, his teams were better than they should have been. 

My opinion doesn't need to be factual.  He's softer than a tootsie roll fruit cup.  And he will inevitably end up where he is best served, which is as an OC under a head coach who isn't soft.

[colts89]

On 11/10/2023 at 7:26 AM, Solid84 said:

Watching this and seeing how many times Young is on his behind or running while his receivers haven't even turned around it's obvious they have more issues than QB play. Their Oline is trash and Reich's playdesign is 20 years behind the curve.

The Panthers are easily the least talented team in the NFL, especially on offense. I still think Young pops off in 1-2 years if they can build an even decent roster. Probably would need to let go of Reich as well, but Reich has shown he can get carried by a good roster at the very least.

 

 

The bad thing (for them) is that the Panthers traded most of their upcoming assets to get Young to begin with.

[Yoshinator]

I've been holding off on this thread for a bit. This is so frustrating to see Stroud and now Levis play so well, and Richardson out for the season. We are literally helpless where our QB can't develop, and the rest of the AFC South has their franchise QBs potentially. Stroud is going to get MVP votes most likely and win rookie of the year. Of course, he is our division. That's just our luck. Levis could be good or bad, not enough info or not. Bryce Young looks like a bust. It just doesn't help us much as he's in the NFC. 

 

Richardson has a chance to be great next year, but we are helpless until then. I just hope he's 100% and can play at the same level as this year. Stroud, Lawrence, and Levis isn't going to be a pushover like earlier days in the division.

[Solid84]

10 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I've been holding off on this thread for a bit. This is so frustrating to see Stroud and now Levis play so well, and Richardson out for the season. We are literally helpless where our QB can't develop, and the rest of the AFC South has their franchise QBs potentially. Stroud is going to get MVP votes most likely and win rookie of the year. Of course, he is our division. That's just our luck. Levis could be good or bad, not enough info or not. Bryce Young looks like a bust. It just doesn't help us much as he's in the NFC. 

 

Richardson has a chance to be great next year, but we are helpless until then. I just hope he's 100% and can play at the same level as this year. Stroud, Lawrence, and Levis isn't going to be a pushover like earlier days in the division.

He got a few games of experience at least and now he gets to sit and learn. It’s not wasted. He has loads time to study the playbook. 
 

He will miss reps with his teammates of course. That’s the biggest loss I think. 

[husker61]

Getting hurt could be a blessing in disguise. He has the least amount of experience and is the most raw of the top qb’s. He probably should have sit at least for a little while like Levis did. That may have been what helped Levis look so comfortable as a nfl qb. 

[a06cc]

Gotta see it next season from Mr Glass before I believe it. He has no experience. Has only play 2.5 games. So stop with the played 4 games. Bryce Young may be a bust, but I know he isn’t made of glass. Our whole defensive line tackled him and he got back up. 

[Tsarquise]

CJ Stroud is legit. Im watching the Houston and Cincinnati game, and it's a pleasure watching him play. 

[NewColtsFan]

19 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I've been holding off on this thread for a bit. This is so frustrating to see Stroud and now Levis play so well, and Richardson out for the season. We are literally helpless where our QB can't develop, and the rest of the AFC South has their franchise QBs potentially. Stroud is going to get MVP votes most likely and win rookie of the year. Of course, he is our division. That's just our luck. Levis could be good or bad, not enough info or not. Bryce Young looks like a bust. It just doesn't help us much as he's in the NFC. 

 

Richardson has a chance to be great next year, but we are helpless until then. I just hope he's 100% and can play at the same level as this year. Stroud, Lawrence, and Levis isn't going to be a pushover like earlier days in the division.

I believe I’ve read AR should be good to go in 8 months.   I think his operation was around Nov 1, which should him back at July 1, and camp typically starts the last week of July.   So he should be fine.   

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I believe I’ve read AR should be good to go in 8 months.   I think his operation was around Nov 1, which should him back at July 1, and camp typically starts the last week of July.   So he should be fine.   

It’s 4-6 months. Steichen said he should be ready by spring for OTA.

[Solid84]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I believe I’ve read AR should be good to go in 8 months.   I think his operation was around Nov 1, which should him back at July 1, and camp typically starts the last week of July.   So he should be fine.   

 

5 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

It’s 4-6 months. Steichen said he should be ready by spring for OTA.

Any sources on this? The more time he has to workout before OTA or camp the better.