AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[2006Coltsbestever]

lol

[NFLfan]

2 hours ago, AKB said:

theoretically this thread might go for years

 

We may have to end it at the end of this year.

[coltsblue1844]

7 hours ago, husker61 said:

I have said this before, I will say it again. I didn’t like Richardson before the draft and would have traded down and seen if a qb fell to draft. Passing and reading defenses are much more important than a running qb, that’s why I wouldn’t have drafted him. In a small nfl sample size, levis is much more of the type of qb that I think will be successful. I hope Richardson turns out to be the best qb in the nfl, but I haven’t seen those qualities yet. 

Agreed. I didn't want to draft AR, because I don't want a running QB for our team...they usually get hurt a lot and have a short career (and requires more $$ tied to the QB position, due to needing a high level backup).

 

I wanted and still wish we drafted Levis. Arm is just as good, and he's athletic enough to scramble if he has to, but his success doesn't rely on it.

 

I much prefer a pocket QB who CAN run if he HAS to, over a QB who's game/success relies on him running the ball every game.

[coltsblue1844]

6 hours ago, Boondoggle said:

It's funny what people see.  That game vs Pittsburgh Levis played like a veteran up until the end when he started putting up risky balls.  Which was irritating.  Frankly I was a bit disgusted by how he looked for about 3/4 of the game.  Then very glad to see him rook it up late, because I don't want to see him play like a vet year one.

 

There's no way any Colts fan should be rooting for him now, even in order to say "I told you so."  Because that would never make up for the pain of seeing Tennessee blunder into a top QB addition in round 2. 

 

Best thing we've got going here with him is that he is a bit weird, reminds me of a male cheerleader type moreso than a locker room leader.  So the hope here has to be that he'll struggle and then have trouble managing the pressure and coaching corrections like we saw with Wentz.  But he showed a lot of character vs Pittsburgh.  That's a serious rush and well coordinated defense for a rook to play in their house.

I wish we had traded back a few spots...drafted Jalen Carter to become Buckner's replacement, or one of the top corners, and then picked up Levis later in round 1.

[NFLfan]

54 minutes ago, coltsblue1844 said:

because I don't want a running QB for our team...they usually get hurt a lot and have a short career (and requires more $$ tied to the QB position, due to needing a high level backup).

 

Do you have sources to back that up? What is a "short career"?

 

I believe that folks that don't like so called "running QBs" only notice when they get hurt, not when others do. Russell Wilson was considered a running QB. He outlasted the other running QB (Robert Griffin 3) and Luck, who was the prototypical pocket QB. Donovan McNabb was considered a "running QB" when he started; he played over 12 years. He outlasted the #1 draft pick of the same draft class, pocket QB Tim Couch, whose career was cut short by injuries (5 career seasons). Josh Allen was one of the two "running QBs" of his draft. He was Anthony Richardson, throwing bullets down the field and running for yards. He is the top QB of his class surpassing pocket passers like Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold. (Lamar Jackson is from the same class and looking good. He too is called a running QB.) Hurts and Mahomes are doing well while pocket passers like Teddy Bridgewater and Jimmy Garoppolo are always hurt. Kyler Murray is hurt but he will probably resume his career soon. Johnny Manziel and Michael Vick were considered "running QBs" but it was not injuries that shortened their careers.

 

That's just a few examples.

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

31 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Do you have sources to back that up? What is a "short career"?

 

I believe that folks that don't like so called "running QBs" only notice when they get hurt, not when others do. Russell Wilson was considered a running QB. He outlasted the other running QB (Robert Griffin 3) and Luck, who was the prototypical pocket QB. Donovan McNabb was considered a "running QB" when he started. He outlasted #1 draft pick and pocket QB Tim Couch whose career was cut short by injuries. Josh Allen was one of the two "running QBs" of his draft. He was Anthony Richardson, throwing bullets and running for yards. He is the top QB of his class surpassing pocket passers like Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold. (Lamar Jackson is from the same class and looking good. He too is called a running QB.) Hurts and Mahomes are doing well while pocket passers like Teddy Bridgewater and Jimmy Garoppolo are always hurt. Kyler Murray is hurt but he will probably resume his career soon. Johnny Manziel and Michael Vick were considered "running QBs" but it was not injuries that shortened their careers.

 

That's just a few examples.

Injuries are a crapshoot, AR getting injured is just another way for people to use "misrepresentation" toward the running QB. Actually AR looked decent in the pocket at times. I can reel off 10 great QBs that were strictly pocket passers that got severely injured. Peyton- neck, Brady- Achilles, Rodgers-collarbone early in his career, Stafford-shoulder, Brees-shoulder, Aikman had to retire because of concussions. There has been a crap load more.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Cousins just now is another. 

[NFLfan]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Injuries are a crapshoot, AR getting injured is just another way for people to use "misrepresentation" toward the running QB. Actually AR looked decent in the pocket at times. I can reel off 10 great QBs that were strictly pocket passers that got severely injured. Peyton- neck, Brady- Achilles, Rodgers-collarbone early in his career, Stafford-shoulder, Brees-shoulder, Aikman had to retire because of concussions.

 

What happens is that when a pocket QB gets hurt, it's just football. When a "running QB" gets hurt, it is attributed to the style of play. Early on, I recall someone here saying that Mahomes would not be successful because his career would be cut by injuries due to running the ball.

[NFLfan]

Going back to comparing the 4 rookie QBs. You all will have first-hand look at Bryce Young today. Let's see how he plays.

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 hours ago, Boondoggle said:

It's funny what people see.  That game vs Pittsburgh Levis played like a veteran up until the end when he started putting up risky balls.  Which was irritating.  Frankly I was a bit disgusted by how he looked for about 3/4 of the game.  Then very glad to see him rook it up late, because I don't want to see him play like a vet year one.

 

There's no way any Colts fan should be rooting for him now, even in order to say "I told you so."  Because that would never make up for the pain of seeing Tennessee blunder into a top QB addition in round 2. 

 

Best thing we've got going here with him is that he is a bit weird, reminds me of a male cheerleader type moreso than a locker room leader.  So the hope here has to be that he'll struggle and then have trouble managing the pressure and coaching corrections like we saw with Wentz.  But he showed a lot of character vs Pittsburgh.  That's a serious rush and well coordinated defense for a rook to play in their house.

It wasn't even so much the last drive. The drive before when Tennessee had the ball at the Pittsburgh 48 with over 3 minutes to go. They failed there also. I suppose Levis had nothing to do with that lol. Why doesn't anyone bring that up?

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

Going back to comparing the 4 rookie QBs. You all will have first-hand look at Bryce Young today. Let's see how he plays.

I can't wait.

[Dingus McGirt]

51 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

Going back to comparing the 4 rookie QBs. You all will have first-hand look at Bryce Young today. Let's see how he plays.

I’ll be at the game.  So, my “first-hand look” will worse than those who watch on television.  :^)

[NFLfan]

19 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

I’ll be at the game.  So, my “first-hand look” will worse than those who watch on television.  :^)

 

Enjoy. Did you get to message the other folks going to the game?

 

 

[DougDew]

6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

Dude….  I made it about you because you were talking about AR and it was my view that your view would be better if people knew you were not a AR fan.  Now you’re trying to insist that you are.   I simply tried to remind you what you’ve said in the past and now you’re saying this doesn’t add up for you because of how you approach this website.    
 

I don’t know why you felt the need to tell me about Levis, we’ve never mentioned his name in any exchange.   But you did.   So we’ve gotten no where fast. 

Right, you made it about me and tried to call me insincere (and made up some nonsense about Morrocco Brown...which I still don't follow how who picked AR or not would make me an AR fan or not). 

 

To the bolded.  Assume its true for arguments sake, what would me not being an AR fan have to do with me pointing out exaggerations some made about Levis' performance?  I don't see the connection.  It's almost sound like you think that being a Colts fan means a person has license to say anything positive about the Colts or anything negative about the opponent....even if its exaggerated.  

 

Dude, if that's true, that's some weird stuff driving some comments here man.  

 

Levis is the discussion now because he is the QB that's played recently.  I'll probably talk about Young after today.  And I guess depending upon what I say about Young might not make me an AR fan...or a better one?  Weird.

 

10 hours ago, husker61 said:

so I guess anyone that doesn’t like every colt player, coach, or gm isn’t really a colts fan.  That would probably make every person here not a colts fan first. 

That, and, when you point out that the other QB had a nice game, point out that some folks are nearly lying about the other QBs performance, you're not a fan of your QB or a Colts fan.   Seems a like a weak, desperate claim to me.  

 

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

What happens is that when a pocket QB gets hurt, it's just football. When a "running QB" gets hurt, it is attributed to the style of play. Early on, I recall someone here saying that Mahomes would not be successful because his career would be cut by injuries due to running the ball.

Because it is the style of play.  The pocket QB has a friendly big body between him and the guy who wants to tackle him.  The running QB takes on the defenders in space generally by himself.  Making the defender miss....or not...is a big part of his talent. There are rules that protect the pocket passer...late hit, roughing, etc.  and there are rules that protect the running QB too, sliding to avoid contact.  And both can do something to avoid contact.  Release the ball.  Slide.  And each QB can make their style more of a problem.....the pocket guy can hold the ball too long....and the runner doesn't slide enough.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that one is being protected by his 'mates and the other is purposely being exposed.

 

But, I agree about injuries....I think its a Red Herring.  I don't think that injuries necessarily is why they have short careers.  The running QB have short careers if they are never successful enough in the passing game.  AKA Kaepernick.

 

Mahomes is not really an example of a running QB.  He is a scrambler.  He has gotten injured, and that's why KC doesn't call designed running plays for PM....if you take notice.    A "running" QB has designed plays called.  Hurts.  Anthony Richardson. Lamar...even Josh Allen has designed run plays.

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

We may have to end it at the end of this year.

SInce AR is no longer going to be a topic since he's on the bench..(.I don't get why we would interject AR into the convo at this point?)  

 

Might take the thread to the NFL General Section?

[NFLfan]

13 minutes ago, DougDew said:

SInce AR is no longer going to be a topic since he's on the bench..(.I don't get why we would interject AR into the convo at this point?)  

 

Might take the thread to the NFL General Section?

 

No, this is for Colts fans.

 

22 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Mahomes is not really an example of a running QB. 

 

He was called one by fans early on. Now that he has had success, he suddenly is not.

[NFLfan]

31 minutes ago, DougDew said:

The running QB have short careers if they are never successful enough in the passing game.  AKA Kaepernick.

 

Lol. You had to throw that in. Never fails. Goodness gracious.

 

He was in the NFL for 7 years and played 6 years and would have played more.

 

Let's move on please.

[NFLfan]

@Dingus

Are you there yet? Tell us all about it in the game thread. Enjoy it!

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, NFLfan said:

 

Lol. You had to throw that in. Never fails. Goodness gracious.

 

He was in the NFL for 7 years and played 6 years and would have played more.

 

Let's move on please.

What are you possibly talking about?  I'm sick and tired of you people reading stuff into my posts...then pretending I said it.

 

Lamar, Hurts, Allen, are running QBs who are still in the NFL because of their passing...and Lamar returned form injury and is still in the NFL.  Lets hope AR can get there.

 

Kaep did not leave the NFL because of injury.  He left because defenses figured out the read option and he never got beyond being a limited passer.

 

I say the word Kaepernick...and YOU...think I'm talking politics?

 

Yeah, move the on please.  You're too biased to have a convo with.

[Nickster]

40 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

He was called one by fans early on. Now that he has had success, he suddenly is not.

You said Luck wasn’t a running QB and was a prototypical pocket passer and he ran for more yards on average that Mahomes before the new craze of running QBs.

 

seems like you might be cherry picking to support your position. 

[Nickster]

37 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Lol. You had to throw that in. Never fails. Goodness gracious.

 

He was in the NFL for 7 years and played 6 years and would have played more.

 

Let's move on please.

What about Newton?

[NFLfan]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

You said Luck wasn’t a running QB and was a prototypical pocket passer and he ran for more yards on average that Mahomes before the new craze of running QBs.

 

seems like you might be cherry picking to support your position. 

 

I am not the one calling them running QBs. Folks called Mahomes a running QB. Luck was a pocket QB who ran for his life. Mahomes may run less because he does not have to.

Just now, Nickster said:

What about Newton?

 

He had a long career. I forgot about him. I forgot lots of people. Lots of pocket QBs had short careers too.

[Nickster]

Just now, NFLfan said:

 

I am not the one calling them running QBs. Folks called Mahomes a running QB. Luck was a pocket QB who ran for his life. Mahomes may run less because he does not have to.

Mahomes won a SB last year as an immobile QB.

 

Guys are taking 100-170 Carries from the QB spot now.  Massively different than when Luck played.  I’m not sure what Doug is saying exactly, but I’m guessing that as we go on, these high volume rushing QBs are gonna wash up quicker like RBs do.  

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, Nickster said:

What about Newton?

Started off as a running QB, had longevity as he became a better passer.  Had injuries throughout his career but when his body got beat up and he could no longer run, his passing wasn't good enough to keep him in the NFL.

 

Is that a good summary?

[Nickster]

9 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

I am not the one calling them running QBs. Folks called Mahomes a running QB. Luck was a pocket QB who ran for his life. Mahomes may run less because he does not have to.

 

He had a long career. I forgot about him. I forgot lots of people. Lots of pocket QBs had short careers too.

He had a longer career but he sucked after the first few years.

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Started off as a running QB, had longevity as he became a better passer.  Had injuries throughout his career but when his body got beat up and he could no longer run, his passing wasn't good enough to keep him in the NFL.

 

Is that a good summary?

Pretty good Doug.  Sounds like Wilson only Wilson was better at avoiding hits, and was effective longer.

[NFLfan]

2 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Mahomes won a SB last year as an immobile QB.

 

That is irrelevant. He was called a running QB. Folks here are saying they don't like running QBs because they get injured. He already won two Super Bowls.

 

You mentioned Newton. Look at the guys who were drafted that year. (Blaine Gabbert, Jake Locker, my guy Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton). Who had the best career?

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, Nickster said:

What about Newton?

Newton had 8 productive good years with the Panthers, 1 great one when he went to the SB and won MVP of the League. To me a short career would be a QB that plays 6 years or less like Luck.

[DougDew]

13 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Guys are taking 100-170 Carries from the QB spot now.  Massively different than when Luck played.  I’m not sure what Doug is saying exactly, but I’m guessing that as we go on, these high volume rushing QBs are gonna wash up quicker like RBs do.

I'm saying that too much is made of the injury thing regarding running QBs.  When they come into the NFL known as a running QB, they typically need a lot of development in the passing game.  That's what carries the day in the NFL.

 

Running QBs do get beat up.  But if they evolve as passers their injury history becomes moot because their passing skills can now sustain them.  And that is the basis of their longevity.

 

Yes, a running QB that has to rely upon running to open up their passing game is going to have a shorter career.  Heck, age alone begins to take the legs away from athletes beginning in their late 20s, and they become less effective runners simply with age.

[Nickster]

Just now, DougDew said:

I'm saying that too much is made of the injury thing regarding running QBs.  When they come into the NFL known as a running QB, they typically need a lot of development in the passing game.  That's what carries the day in the NFL.

 

Running QBs do get beat up.  But if they evolve as passers their injury history becomes moot because their passing skills can now sustain them.  And that is the basis of their longevity.

 

Yes, a running QB that has to rely upon running to open up their passing game is going to have a shorter career.  Heck, age alone begins to take the legs away from athletes beginning in their late 20s.

I’m just saying it’s only been recently we’re QBs take that many Carrie’s.  

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, Nickster said:

He had a longer career but he sucked after the first few years.

Pretty good Doug.  Sounds like Wilson only Wilson was better at avoiding hits, and was effective longer.

Wilson was a pretty good passer coming out of college and always has been.  Not really an elite passer, but always good enough, if not more than good enough.  But yes, he's become a less effective QB as his legs have gotten "heavier".

[NFLfan]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Newton had 8 productive good years with the Panthers, 1 great one when he went to the SB and won MVP of the League. To me a short career would be a QB that plays 6 years or less like Luck.

 

Luck had more years, I think

 

I am bringing this back to the topic, as the thread is going off topic. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, NFLfan said:

 

Luck had more years, I think

 

I am bringing this back to the topic, as the thread is going off topic. 

Luck only played in 6. 2012-2014, 2015, 2016, 2018. He was out in 2017.

[NFLfan]

Young plays your Colts today. Who does Stroud play?

 

I will start a topic on NFL section for all other rookie QBs, including mine who makes his debut today in place of Cousins. Clayton Tune also makes debut. See NFL section later.

 

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Luck only played in 6. 2012-2014, 2015, 2016, 2018. He was out in 2017.

 

I did not realize that. Let's go back on topic.

 

What do you expect from Young?

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, NFLfan said:

Young plays your Colts today. Who does Stroud play?

 

I will start a topic on NFL section for all other rookie QBs, including mine who makes his debut today in place of Cousins. Clayton Tune also makes debut. See NFL section later.

 

 

I did not realize that. Let's go back on topic.

 

What do you expect from Young?

I think Indy will win today, Young is struggling so far. Not sure what to make of it. Is it coaching? Is it Young just not adjusting to the pro game, hard telling. Maybe his size is a factor? 

[DougDew]

13 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I’m just saying it’s only been recently we’re QBs take that many Carrie’s.  

You've said before that running QBs may not make it past their 5 year rookie contract...in effectiveness.  And that teams could just replace them in the draft and design a simple offense around the rook, instead of paying the 5 year beat up vet a big contract.  That's interesting.

 

As this fits into the topic.  That theory pertains to the Colts and whether or not we see AR as nothing more than a 5 year guy, and not really the franchise.  HOU might be able to have vision beyond that with Stroud, and TEN too with Levis.  Not sure where Young fits into that theory.

[NFLfan]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think Indy will win today, Young is struggling so far. Not sure what to make of it. Is it coaching? Is it Young just not adjusting to the pro game, hard telling. Maybe his size is a factor? 

 

I don't know. Many were concerned about his size. I actually liked him best pre-draft. Lol.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

I don't know. Many were concerned about his size. I actually liked him best pre-draft. Lol.

Yeah, pre-draft I had Young and Stroud even. Then I had AR and Levis even.

 

Like:

1a Young

1b Stroud

then AR and Levis after that. I wanted AR once Stroud was gone. For all I know though, Levis might end up being better. He impressed me vs the Falcons.

[husker61]

15 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Wilson was a pretty good passer coming out of college and always has been.  Not really an elite passer, but always good enough, if not more than good enough.  But yes, he's become a less effective QB as his legs have gotten "heavier".

I was going to say the same thing. Wilson was a very accurate passer in college the games I saw and had a very good arm! I don’t remember him being considered a running qb coming out of college. The knock on him was he was too short! 

[compuls1v3]

12 hours ago, husker61 said:

I will ask again. What throws did he look questionable on?

I didn't watch the game that closely,  so I can't tell you exactly.