Hines

[runthepost]

First off how should we utilize him?

Second when Doyle retires the highest paid skilled player on the colts is the back up running back in Hines 

[yankeeclipper]

We are paying him a lot to have be used so sparingly. I thought he as underutilized this past season

 

 

[tvturner]

As a poor man's Deebo Samuel

[Colts.sb41]

I think he should be on the field most of the time. Whether in the backfield or out wide, he’s such a X factor that plays better as he gets momentum. I think it keeps teams on their toes when him and JT are on the field at the same time.

[EastStreet]

51 minutes ago, tvturner said:

As a poor man's Deebo Samuel

Deebo has about 3 inches and 20lbs on Hines. 

I agree to an extent, but IMO they are too very different players. 

I'd love to see Hines get more WR routes though. 

Hines is easily faster, but he's not near as physical. 

Regardless, we need to figure out how to get our money's worth. 

We clearly could have used him a lot more this year. 

[bluephantom87]

43 minutes ago, tvturner said:

As a poor man's Deebo Samuel

Or a Sproles type. He should be on the field at the same time as JT period! Put him in motion and line him up as a split back or flanker. Hines is a match-up problem in open space but this offensive coaching staff lacks the imagination or creativity to scheme mismatches or find ways to utilize his skillset. That's why most teams are going for the young bright offensive minds to run wide open offenses. Our offense is suited more for Eddie George!

[Maniac53]

26 minutes ago, bluephantom87 said:

Or a Sproles type. He should be on the field at the same time as JT period! Put him in motion and line him up as a split back or flanker. Hines is a match-up problem in open space but this offensive coaching staff lacks the imagination or creativity to scheme mismatches or find ways to utilize his skillset. That's why most teams are going for the young bright offensive minds to run wide open offenses. Our offense is suited more for Eddie George!

Yeah more of a Sproles like player than Deebo. I think Hines will get used more next season. Thing is I never thought we used him enough before 

[smittywerb]

Darren Sproles type.

 

he has 4.3 speed and the hands of a wide receiver with the vision of rb.

 

I honestly want to see us line him up wide.  The defense has to account for him every play.  The defense either has to put a safety or corner on him because he’s going to be a mismatch for any line backer.

 

this will give us another weapon without having to use money or high draft picks.

 

the fact that he’s getting paid so much but used so little shows me there’s a disconnect between Ballard and Reich on how he should be used.

 

as someone said, Hines should be a smaller version of deebo Samuel but he’s not being used at all

[Bravo]

Made no sense with our poor receiving group this year that we didn’t use him in the slot or outside more often. He had some great plays as a receiver with Rivers.

 

IMO he’s best use as a gadget player with reverses or as a receiver in open space.

[EastStreet]

24 minutes ago, bravo4460 said:

Made no sense with our poor receiving group this year that we didn’t use him in the slot or outside more often. He had some great plays as a receiver with Rivers.

 

IMO he’s best use as a gadget player with reverses or as a receiver in open space.

 

Would love to see him run out of the slot. No reason not to give him reps there. He brings so much more play making ability than Pascal. 

[hoosierhawk]

2 hours ago, tvturner said:

As a poor man's Deebo Samuel

More like a homeless man's Deebo Samuel, lol.

[Scott Pennock]

We should just make him a slot receiver and use him on jet sweeps and a few hand offs from time to time!

 

 

[Hoose]

35 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

More like a homeless man's Deebo Samuel, lol.

Ha! True but he’s still a talent whose skills need to be better utilized. For that to happen, he HAS to be on the field more…… & lined up everywhere.

[Maniac53]

47 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Would love to see him run out of the slot. No reason not to give him reps there. He brings so much more play making ability than Pascal. 

Pascal really that bad? He did pretty good with Rivers I thought I could be wrong my memory isn't like it use to be and he was used more of a blocker this season. If Pascal is cheap pretty good run blocker. lol Thought a lot of receivers did bad this season cause we were running all the time and had no sync in the passing game. Dang Wentz was so cold he couldn't hit wide open TD to Hilton in Raiders game. 

 

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, Maniac53 said:

Pascal really that bad? He did pretty good with Rivers I thought I could be wrong my memory isn't like it use to be and he was used more of a blocker this season. If Pascal is cheap pretty good run blocker. lol Thought a lot of receivers did bad this season cause we were running all the time and had no sync in the passing game. Dang Wentz was so cold he couldn't hit wide open TD to Hilton in Raiders game. 

 

Pascal is just not a #1 or #2 type. He's a classic tweener (size wise) but doesn't have great speed. 

Great #4 type flex guy though. 

 

He's a decent fit for a quick trigger like Rivers. Pascal however had a similar year (2018/2021) with Luck. In 2018, Rogers got the nod at slot over ZP.... And Inman got the nod at X over ZP as well. He's never had a great catch %. And his YAC dropped this season. He was used a lot more blocking this year too, which cut down on his use. 

 

Not saying he wouldn't do better with Rivers. I'm just saying he shouldn't be a #1 or #2 WR...

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

3 hours ago, Colts.sb41 said:

I think he should be on the field most of the time. Whether in the backfield or out wide, he’s such a X factor that plays better as he gets momentum. I think it keeps teams on their toes when him and JT are on the field at the same time.

our secret weapon that is rarely used for pitchout and short pass and run, very dangerous in spaces, the type of player brady and bb used to win superbowls

[coltsfan_canada]

2 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

our secret weapon that is rarely used for pitchout and short pass and run, very dangerous in spaces, the type of player brady and bb used to win superbowls

Exactly like Welker or Edelman

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

2 minutes ago, DEFENSE said:

our secret weapon that is rarely used for pitchout and short pass and run, very dangerous in spaces, the type of player brady and bb used to win superbowls

pats made brady famous using wes welker for the short pass and run , hines has the same ability as welker

[LJpalmbeacher2]

1 hour ago, DEFENSE said:

our secret weapon that is rarely used for pitchout and short pass and run, very dangerous in spaces, the type of player brady and bb used to win superbowls

 

I'd like to add a versatile TE that can catch passes as well as run & pass block. And creative formations with that TE, JT, and Hines all in at the same time.....one play we can have a power formation with the TE playing as a FB....another play we can motion to a empty backfield. Lots of multiple plays & formations and JT & Hines in at the same time.

[TheUnshuffler]

4 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

More like a homeless man's Deebo Samuel, lol.

Hobo Samuel?

[Two_pound]

Hines is just as big as McKinnon and Edwards-Heliere, I was surprised how much the Chiefs got away from running them right at the Bengals yesterday, it worked well in the first half. Hines should get the ball more. Checkdowns to either Taylor or Hines would work pretty good for us, and that's on Wentz, there were too many times last season those 2 were completely uncovered and Wentz ignored them. Wentz needs to see the field better.

[life long]

1 hour ago, Two_pound said:

Hines is just as big as McKinnon and Edwards-Heliere, I was surprised how much the Chiefs got away from running them right at the Bengals yesterday, it worked well in the first half. Hines should get the ball more. Checkdowns to either Taylor or Hines would work pretty good for us, and that's on Wentz, there were too many times last season those 2 were completely uncovered and Wentz ignored them. Wentz needs to see the field better.

Yeah he doesn't seem to know how to throw a touch pass for a screen, or how to hit a checkdown in stride. It is odd because I constantly see him throw sidearm and from different platforms which usually is how you hit those 2 types of passes. 

[DougDew]

Neither Hines nor JT are versatile enough to line up in the backfield together.  To do that, you want RBs that can both lead block and catch passes.  Neither JT or Hines lead blocks, and only Hines catches passes.  It will work for a while, but defenses will figure it out pretty quickly.

 

For a two RB set, you need versatility like the old SF49ers who had Tom Rathman and Roger Craig....didn't even have to change out RBs for short yardage situations.

 

Hines is nice, but he really isn't versatile enough to do much other than passes out of the backfield....and then when he's in the game the defense knows why he's in the game. 

 

Unless you surprise the D by running him up the gut, LOL.

[DougDew]

To get open as a receiver, you have to make precise cuts at the top of the route without losing speed.  Pure foot speed doesn't cut it.  A slot receiver has the training to run those routes, like Edleman and Welker did, unless you want to rely on Hines to run to an open area, which isn't going to happen often, and the defense will know the only place he's going to run to.

 

Hines had lots of production with Rivers, partly because Rivers didn't throw it to the Z receiver as much as we wanted.  Take away some of Hines' production and shift it towards a normal QB/Z relationship and that will tell you where to expect Hines' production to land.  IMO.

[hoosierhawk]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Neither Hines nor JT are versatile enough to line up in the backfield together.  To do that, you want RBs that can both lead block and catch passes.  Neither JT or Hines lead blocks, and only Hines catches passes.  It will work for a while, but defenses will figure it out pretty quickly.

 

For a two RB set, you need versatility like the old SF49ers who had Tom Rathman and Roger Craig....didn't even have to change out RBs for short yardage situations.

 

Hines is nice, but he really isn't versatile enough to do much other than passes out of the backfield....and then when he's in the game the defense knows why he's in the game. 

 

Unless you surprise the D by running him up the gut, LOL.

I assume you are saying in the bolded that only Hines catches passes and that Tayor doesn't. Taylor was tired with Hines for 2nd most catches on the team with more yards per catch than Hines.

[chad72]

13 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Would love to see him run out of the slot. No reason not to give him reps there. He brings so much more play making ability than Pascal. 

 

Even if not Darren Sproles, Theo Riddick comes to mind. Stafford used to find him in the flat or on slants against LBs in the slot when matched up vs LBs. With JT, they need that extra LB to defend and if they have 3 LBs, you split Hines out and by keeping both of them on the field, you increase your options considerably with the play calling IF you are willing to think outside the "Hines down the gut" rut.  

[runthepost]

6 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Even if not Darren Sproles, Theo Riddick comes to mind. Stafford used to find him in the flat or on slants against LBs in the slot when matched up vs LBs. With JT, they need that extra LB to defend and if they have 3 LBs, you split Hines out and by keeping both of them on the field, you increase your options considerably with the play calling IF you are willing to think outside the "Hines down the gut" rut.  

I really do think Hines can be like Kamara lite, but we can’t just run him up the gut. 

[Colt.45]

The only baffling thing is WHY we paid him as we did. We didnt use him much this season because the QB showed a propensity to avoid short/intermediate routes or his safety valves. When Rivers was here, well the fact is he earned Hines that contract, he gave him the chance to showcase his skillset. So the usage issue is simple, get the QB to take what's there and you'll see Hines perform better.

 

Now the larger WHY we paid him is interesting. Clearly the guy can perform. We saw it in flashes this year, we saw it when Rivers was here. I think he is/can be worth what he was paid. The problem of Hines is another fallout of the Wentz deal.

The Colts gave Hines the contract in September and for one year he has not been worth it, because #2.

Clearly the Colts felt Hines would do well with Carson and he hasn't. Somewhere in the Colts building, you know there has been a discussion about part of Carson's failures being his inability to use Hines. 

[shasta519]

15 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

Even if not Darren Sproles, Theo Riddick comes to mind. Stafford used to find him in the flat or on slants against LBs in the slot when matched up vs LBs. With JT, they need that extra LB to defend and if they have 3 LBs, you split Hines out and by keeping both of them on the field, you increase your options considerably with the play calling IF you are willing to think outside the "Hines down the gut" rut.  

 

Now there's an actual realistic comp. Hines has been a better runner though (I imagine playing behind IND's OL vs. DET's OL probably makes a difference).

 

McKissic is also a good comp. He has been a productive player the past few seasons and hopefully Hines can do the same as he enters that age range.

 

Some of these comps in this thread are out there. Hines is a solid weapon, but he's a bit matchup-dependent...with that matchup tending to be bad/slower defenses. Take away his outlier game against the NYJ defense this year...and his stats in the other 16 games are similar to 2019 when JB was QB.

 

So I do think Wentz being at QB hurt him, as did JB as well. But Hines also had long stretches of ineffectiveness, while JT was exploding onto the scene.

 

It's difficult to find a QB more perfect for Hines than Rivers was, so we should be realistic about his overall upside. Next season, they will likely involve him more, but I think he's a guy that will maybe (at most) get 8-9 touches/game on average. Some games less and occasionally some with a few more touches (depending on the matchup). 

[shasta519]

9 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

The only baffling thing is WHY we paid him as we did. We didnt use him much this season because the QB showed a propensity to avoid short/intermediate routes or his safety valves. When Rivers was here, well the fact is he earned Hines that contract, he gave him the chance to showcase his skillset. So the usage issue is simple, get the QB to take what's there and you'll see Hines perform better.

 

Now the larger WHY we paid him is interesting. Clearly the guy can perform. We saw it in flashes this year, we saw it when Rivers was here. I think he is/can be worth what he was paid. The problem of Hines is another fallout of the Wentz deal.

The Colts gave Hines the contract in September and for one year he has not been worth it, because #2.

Clearly the Colts felt Hines would do well with Carson and he hasn't. Somewhere in the Colts building, you know there has been a discussion about part of Carson's failures being his inability to use Hines. 

 

I agree. I thought it was very likely they would re-sign Hines anyways (after the season), but to do it in September was a curious move, especially since they had not seen how he would fare with Wentz at QB. And not only that, but they gave him a really nice contract for the role he plays.

 

What's interesting now too is that after next season, JT is eligible for an extension. And I would imagine, after seeing Hines get his deal early, he is going to be want his massive new deal early too. Not to mention the Colts can't have his backup making $4M+ more than him anyways, especially when JT is making All Pro teams and eligible to get an extension.

[NewColtsFan]

39 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I agree. I thought it was very likely they would re-sign Hines anyways (after the season), but to do it in September was a curious move, especially since they had not seen how he would fare with Wentz at QB. And not only that, but they gave him a really nice contract for the role he plays.

 

What's interesting now too is that after next season, JT is eligible for an extension. And I would imagine, after seeing Hines get his deal early, he is going to be want his massive new deal early too. Not to mention the Colts can't have his backup making $4M+ more than him anyways, especially when JT is making All Pro teams and eligible to get an extension.

If Nyheim Hines was not on the team, JT and his agent would still want what they’re going to want.  And they’ll get it too.   The top players get paid when it’s their time.  Period.   JTs agent will make sure of that and so willl Ballard.   Hines is not a factor.  Not even a little.  They’re not connected.   
 

Pittman will get paid too in a year along with JT. 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, hoosierhawk said:

I assume you are saying in the bolded that only Hines catches passes and that Tayor doesn't. Taylor was tired with Hines for 2nd most catches on the team with more yards per catch than Hines.

Yes, Hines down year tied JT.  I think we all want to see JT get more catches.

 

The two back set would give some versatility in the passing game, to the extent it would help anything when you remove the third WR from the LOS.  Its kind of a trade off that doesn't get a real gain, IMO. 

 

I was focusing my comment on how much it would not improve the running game since neither could be blocking for the other and that Hines isn't the best up the gut runner.

[chad72]

28 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yes, Hines down year tied JT.  I think we all want to see JT get more catches.

 

The two back set would give some versatility in the passing game, to the extent it would help anything when you remove the third WR from the LOS.  Its kind of a trade off that doesn't get a real gain, IMO. 

 

I was focusing my comment on how much it would not improve the running game since neither could be blocking for the other and that Hines isn't the best up the gut runner.

 

It can if we didn't rely on both TEs to be inline blockers. 2 WR, 1 TE, 2 RBs, QB and 5 OL will definitely work because safeties and/or LBs will crash the strong side. That pass vs the 49ers that Hines dropped is a classic example of how he could have been used. That reverse vs the Patriots was a case of how he also should be used. It is just that we go away from using him. Yes, we would have film on that for the opponents but that is where you run variations with the same personnel alignment and if a hybrid safety/LB cheats on Hines or follows him, QB hands off to JT. Having 2 RBs with Wentz is the best way to get the most out of Hines. With Rivers, he would have gotten more out of Hines even if Hines was the only RB on the field. There in lies the difference, IMO.

[Mitch Connors]

16 hours ago, bluephantom87 said:

Or a Sproles type. He should be on the field at the same time as JT period! Put him in motion and line him up as a split back or flanker. Hines is a match-up problem in open space but this offensive coaching staff lacks the imagination or creativity to scheme mismatches or find ways to utilize his skillset. That's why most teams are going for the young bright offensive minds to run wide open offenses. Our offense is suited more for Eddie George!

You nailed it. 

I think this coaching staff views Hines as a backup running back and uses him that way based on his usage compared to Taylor. It'd be nice if they started viewing him as an offensive weapon and put him out there when hes not the backup RB.

[DougDew]

28 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

It can if we didn't rely on both TEs to be inline blockers. 2 WR, 1 TE, 2 RBs, QB and 5 OL will definitely work because safeties and/or LBs will crash the strong side. That pass vs the 49ers that Hines dropped is a classic example of how he could have been used. That reverse vs the Patriots was a case of how he also should be used. It is just that we go away from using him. Yes, we would have film on that for the opponents but that is where you run variations with the same personnel alignment and if a hybrid safety/LB cheats on Hines or follows him, QB hands off to JT. Having 2 RBs with Wentz is the best way to get the most out of Hines. With Rivers, he would have gotten more out of Hines even if Hines was the only RB on the field. There in lies the difference, IMO.

I think that whenever you remove one TE and replace him with the third WR on the LOS, (or Hines in the back field), it tells the defense that you're likely to pass.

 

OTOH, if the second RB was a RB bigger than JT who could lead block and catch passes....like Larry Centers or Tom Rathman back in the day, the defense could not key on a pass, and the extra blocker is an asset in the running game like the second TE on the LOS.  Since you could run or pass effectively out of that formation, the offense would be less predictable if you paired JT with a bigger RB instead of a smaller RB.

 

I think you could use Hines in a two back set.  But I think the number of plays that could be run out of it would be limited, and a defense could prepare after seeing it for a few weeks. 

 

The big issue here is, the NFL has moved away from the two back set because the running game has taken a back seat to the passing game.  And would you then rather have a guy who is trained to run a variety of routes or a guy that is more of a gadget guy.   I'll take the 3rd WR in the slot or the 6'5" TE.

[Nesjan3]

However we "should" use him is kind of irrelevant when either Frank doesn't put him on the field or Carson cant get him the ball. Seriously the guy got paid then disappeared. 

[chad72]

34 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think that whenever you remove one TE and replace him with the third WR on the LOS, (or Hines in the back field), it tells the defense that you're likely to pass.

 

OTOH, if the second RB was a RB bigger than JT who could lead block and catch passes....like Larry Centers or Tom Rathman back in the day, the defense could not key on a pass, and the extra blocker is an asset in the running game like the second TE on the LOS.  Since you could run or pass effectively out of that formation, the offense would be less predictable if you paired JT with a bigger RB instead of a smaller RB.

 

I think you could use Hines in a two back set.  But I think the number of plays that could be run out of it would be limited, and a defense could prepare after seeing it for a few weeks. 

 

The big issue here is, the NFL has moved away from the two back set because the running game has taken a back seat to the passing game.  And would you then rather have a guy who is trained to run a variety of routes or a guy that is more of a gadget guy.   I'll take the 3rd WR in the slot or the 6'5" TE.

 

Both of these bolded are incorrect assumptions, IMO. I think Hines is capable of being more than a gadget guy and yes, we can run with just 1 TE blocking inline, so it is not a given it is a pass but it is something a defense has to account for by lining a safety/hybrid LB across Hines taking away 1 from the box. Teams use small RBs to run routes on a run play occupying the extra guy, teams do that a lot of times. So, yes, both of these bolded on your part are assumptions. We can run, run till they try to cheat on JT. 

 

The issue is clearly underutilization or misuse of Hines, with lack of runs outside tackles with either RBs and runs down the gut with Hines in the running game, and not splitting Hines out enough in the passing game in 2 RB formations.

[Colt.45]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

If Nyheim Hines was not on the team, JT and his agent would still want what they’re going to want.  And they’ll get it too.   The top players get paid when it’s their time.  Period.   JTs agent will make sure of that and so willl Ballard.   Hines is not a factor.  Not even a little.  They’re not connected.   
 

Pittman will get paid too in a year along with JT. 

 

Should JT get a huge 2nd deal? 

[AustexColt]

Hines severely underutilized. Copy and paste the way : 

KC uses Tyreek Hill patterns across the middle.

SF49ers Deebo patterns.

Use JT and Hines interchangeable. Both are fast and quick.

Bottomline, Reich is not really thinking of plays because he is saddled with administrative tasks. What that means is that Marcus Brady as OC is underperforming. He is less than Sirianni

[GoColts8818]

Just now, AustexColt said:

Hines severely underutilized. Copy and paste the way : 

KC uses Tyreek Hill patterns across the middle.

SF49ers Deebo patterns.

Use JT and Hines interchangeable. Both are fast and quick.

Bottomline, Reich is not really thinking of plays because he is saddled with administrative tasks. What that means is that Marcus Brady as OC is underperforming. He is less than Sirianni

I don’t know how much of it is Reich.  I think more of it is Wentz and his decision making.  Several times this year the Colts line Hines up the way people are saying he should have been but the plays didn’t go to him.  I don’t know how many times this year I watched Wentz wait and wait for the deep shot down the field to develop or force it deep when he had wide open passes underneath including Hines he just didn’t pull the trigger on.