Rapport: Colts expected to be in QB Market after talks with irsay

[pacolts56]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

What did Flacco and Dilfer have in common.

Insanely good defense... which is exactly why we need to approach the 1st round with an open mind that if a “best in breed” DT falls to us.... we take him and not necessarily a QB.

[18to87]

Does anyone think JB can stay healthy for an entire season with his current style of play? For every awesome throw he makes as he avoids pressure, he also has neutral or negative plays where his body is put in compromising positions. I know mobile QB's are all the rage, but he is taller and less mobile than Jackson, Wilson and Mahomes so more at risk. 

[The Old Crow]

4 minutes ago, pacolts56 said:

Insanely good defense... which is exactly why we need to approach the 1st round with an open mind that if a “best in breed” DT falls to us.... we take him and not necessarily a QB.

 
The Ravens 2000 defense was insanely good and historic, but the 2012 SB winning team only had the 12th ranked defense.  

[hoosierhawk]

3 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

I don't know. Many would call Jim Harbaugh a game manager, and he was only play away from the SB. Closer than Mr. Luck got, and according to the board now, him leaving is the reason we're not elite. 

I was definitely a Mr. Luck fan. I hope you are not insinuating that he was an underachiever. He was 11-5 his first 3 years with no OL and limited support elsewhere but so be it.Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it although I may not agree with it.

I would disagree that Harbaugh was a game manager but he was, in my opinion, a real 'Gamer'. He may not have been the most gifted but he willed his team to win. Other than almost getting to the Super Bowl his record with the Colts was meh.

[pacolts56]

12 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

 
The Ravens 2000 defense was insanely good and historic, but the 2012 SB winning team only had the 12th ranked defense.  

That’s because Pagano left! 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

I was definitely a Mr. Luck fan. I hope you are not insinuating that he was an underachiever. He was 11-5 his first 3 years with no OL and limited support elsewhere but so be it.Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it although I may not agree with it.

I would disagree that Harbaugh was a game manager but he was, in my opinion, a real 'Gamer'. He may not have been the most gifted but he willed his team to win. Other than almost getting to the Super Bowl his record with the Colts was meh.

Best QB's I have ever seen here in Indy are:

Peyton

Luck

Harbaugh

I would put Jacoby 4th

-that is 36 years worth.

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Your original comment that I quoted  was about Dilfer. Curious, how many SB's did the Ravens win with elite QB's compared to game managers?

Dilfer (2000) only started 8 games that year, had almost as many INTs as TDs. The D might have scored more TDs than him (#1 D in the league).

 

Flacco (2012) threw for 3800 yards that year. He also average almost 300 yards per game and close to 3 passing TDs in the playoffs. Is that game manager?

 

Twist it all you want, the likelihood of average or below average QBs, or game mangers, winning SBs is far less than a team with a good QB. You know it, and everyone else knows it.

[EastStreet]

21 minutes ago, The Old Crow said:

I would put Joe at a higher level than a game manager. Trent Dilfer was more of  a game manager than Joe. 
Joe earned that Super Bowl beating Luck, Manning , Brady, and Kaep in his prime in 2012. In 2011, he had Brady beat , putting a ball right into Lee Evans hands, who dropped it.  The 2011 Ravens team was better than the 2012 version that won it all. They matched up better against the Giants than the Patriots did. 
Also remember Joe was 10-5 post season, and has the record with seven road playoff wins. 
He wasn’t elite, but he was a bit more than a game manager. He had some good wins. 
 

Yup, Flacco actually had 6 or 7 really good years. That year in the playoffs, he averaged almost 300 a game and 3 TD without any INTs. That was pretty elite.

[EastStreet]

23 minutes ago, pacolts56 said:

Insanely good defense... which is exactly why we need to approach the 1st round with an open mind that if a “best in breed” DT falls to us.... we take him and not necessarily a QB.

Point is, it's easier to swap one piece (QB) than spend years trying to upgrade a bunch of pieces (on D). Teams like the Dilfer 2000 team are extremely rare. 2012, Flacco was more than a GM, especially in the playoffs.

[Flash7]

46 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Not being negative has nothing to do with being naive. It has everything to do with choosing to be positive, and reaping the benefits as a fan, from making that choice. I am positive all the freaking time......and am not surprised in the least when things don't go right. 

 

In some ways, it is the opposite of being "real" and miserable/dissapointed/depressed/etc.

I responded to Chloe who said she was fine with sticking with JB next year, and then said she refused to be negative.

 

IMO, that’s being naive.

[The Old Crow]

12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Point is, it's easier to swap one piece (QB) than spend years trying to upgrade a bunch of pieces (on D). Teams like the Dilfer 2000 team are extremely rare. 2012, Flacco was more than a GM, especially in the playoffs.

Flacco had 11 TD’s and 0 Int’s with a 117.2 passer rating in the playoffs in 2012. He won that game in Denver with a bomb to Jacoby Jones. I think it’s fair to say, at least in the 2012 playoffs , Flacco was not a game manager. With a mediocre 12th ranked defense , he was a major factor in that Super Bowl. 
The 2015-2017 version of Joe Flacco was definitely a run of the mill game manager. 

[Restored]

35 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

I was definitely a Mr. Luck fan. I hope you are not insinuating that he was an underachiever. He was 11-5 his first 3 years with no OL and limited support elsewhere but so be it.Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it although I may not agree with it.

I would disagree that Harbaugh was a game manager but he was, in my opinion, a real 'Gamer'. He may not have been the most gifted but he willed his team to win. Other than almost getting to the Super Bowl his record with the Colts was meh.

Honestly, Ryan Fitzpatrick reminds me of Harbaugh for some reason.

[hoosierhawk]

56 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It's not easy winning a SB, I remember Jim was close and he similar to JB as in a game manager. Both great leaders, just have trust our FO. Neither are Peyton or Luck so have patience. 

Someone please define a game manager. You are saying Harbaugh and JB are similar and they were both game managers. If my reserch is correct, Harbaugh's career record in the NFL was 129 TD passes vs 117 INTs. Is that similar to JB and is that game management?

 

Edit: His won-lost record with the Colts was 20-26-0

[2006Coltsbestever]

8 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Someone please define a game manager. You are saying Harbaugh and JB are similar and they were both game managers. If my reserch is correct, Harbaugh's career record in the NFL was 129 TD passes vs 117 INTs. Is that similar to JB and is that game management?

 

Edit: His won-lost record with the Colts was 20-26-0

I am not sure why people count JB's 2017 season. He played for a crap team and everyone knows it, In 1995 and 96 Harbaugh was 20-15.

[pacolts56]

40 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Point is, it's easier to swap one piece (QB) than spend years trying to upgrade a bunch of pieces (on D). Teams like the Dilfer 2000 team are extremely rare. 2012, Flacco was more than a GM, especially in the playoffs.

How bout we do both.... 

 

All I'm saying is that if we have a shot at a premier DT... and I mean a real disruptive inside pass rusher such as Javon Kinlaw, the kind of DT we always seemed to miss out on or pass over in the Manning/Polian days.... then I'd prefer we select Kinlaw and see what QB is available in rounds 2 or 3.

 

Honest question related to draft strategy.... because I know you're a Jordan Love proponent.... 

 

What do you think of Jamie Newman from Wake Forest? He played, and played well in the ACC....and for now, isn't getting the hype that Love is. He seems to be on that upward arch as a QB, as opposed to the plateau that many believe that JB has hit.

 

This is why I would rather see us fortify the DT position.... target Newman if he enters the draft... and declare the QB position wide-open between him, Brissett and Kelly next spring.

 

For all of JB's apparent limitations... we did not have that luxury when Luck bolted mere days ahead of Week 1. Reps mattered... and JB had them at the time.

 

Next season can be different.... competition, right?

 

 

[hoosierhawk]

16 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not sure why people count JB's 2017 season. He played for a crap team and everyone knows it, In 1995 and 96 Harbaugh was 20-15.

 

16 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I am not sure why people count JB's 2017 season. He played for a crap team and everyone knows it, In 1995 and 96 Harbaugh was 20-15.

My research shows 14-12 and 2-2 in playoff game in 95 and 96, so16-14. My info I got off of pro football reference.

2-5 in 94 and 2-9 in 97.

[blackcoffeeguy]

27 minutes ago, pacolts56 said:

How bout we do both.... 

 

All I'm saying is that if we have a shot at a premier DT... and I mean a real disruptive inside pass rusher such as Javon Kinlaw, the kind of DT we always seemed to miss out on or pass over in the Manning/Polian days.... then I'd prefer we select Kinlaw and see what QB is available in rounds 2 or 3.

 

Honest question related to draft strategy.... because I know you're a Jordan Love proponent.... 

 

What do you think of Jamie Newman from Wake Forest? He played, and played well in the ACC....and for now, isn't getting the hype that Love is. He seems to be on that upward arch as a QB, as opposed to the plateau that many believe that JB has hit.

 

This is why I would rather see us fortify the DT position.... target Newman if he enters the draft... and declare the QB position wide-open between him, Brissett and Kelly next spring.

 

For all of JB's apparent limitations... we did not have that luxury when Luck bolted mere days ahead of Week 1. Reps mattered... and JB had them at the time.

 

Next season can be different.... competition, right?

 

 

I hear you and it makes sense but I don't see the HC having an open QB  competition.  Sadly I think he's ready to fall on his sword for Brissett.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

If we can get a premier DT in FA that will make the decision easier. That would be the best outcome so we can concentrate on offense and trying to get a QB.

[2006Coltsbestever]

30 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

 

My research shows 14-12 and 2-2 in playoff game in 95 and 96, so16-14. My info I got off of pro football reference.

2-5 in 94 and 2-9 in 97.

97 ruined his record but it got us Peyton  

[hoosierhawk]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

97 ruined his record but it got us Peyton  

My original question was define a game manager. You compared JB to Harbaugh and called them both game managers and I don't at all see the comparison as Harbaugh with his TD to INT ratio looks more like a gunslinger.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, hoosierhawk said:

My original question was define a game manager. You compared JB to Harbaugh and called them both game managers and I don't at all see the comparison as Harbaugh with his TD to INT ratio looks more like a gunslinger.

I think Harbaugh is a lot like JB. He picks his spots, doesn't make many mistakes and just wins. 

[Moosejawcolt]

4 hours ago, EastStreet said:

I wouldn't fall out of my chair, but I would be a bit disappointed. If I were you, I wouldn't fall out of my chair if they do draft a QB. 

 

And never really liked Darnold or Allen. Darnold would do a lot better with a better team. Mayfield went to the Browns, which is a curse in itself for any QB.

To me Mayfield went to the right team.  He is the embodiment of what the Browns are.  

[hoosierhawk]

10 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think Harbaugh is a lot like JB. He picks his spots, doesn't make many mistakes and just wins. 

Career 129 td vs 117 ints. Almost Winston like %?

22-28 -0 won loss record with Colts?

[Moosejawcolt]

I think what we have to do with Brissett and the offence is really step back and do a fair evaluation. Evaluate from  when they were 5 and 2 and what went right. Evaluate the second half when they went on their slide.  Can it be fixed or do we need new pieces?  I know Brissett and the team denies it but I am wondering if Brissett is injured.  He has not been the same since hurting his knee. I kind of hope that is the reason cause I can work with that explanation. Now the defence.  To me that is more worrisome. They need major pieces on the interior of the D line.  I am more for drafting heavy on the interior and in free agency then going after a qb early.  Top 3 picks. D line and maybe a reciever.

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

To me Mayfield went to the right team.  He is the embodiment of what the Browns are.  

LOL. Could be karma for both

[GoColts8818]

What I think they will do is draft a QB.  Probably mid round guy but could be earlier if the right guy is there when they pick.  I think they will start the season with Jacoby.  If Jacoby plays well they stick with Jacoby and let the kid develop a year and make a decision at the end of the year.  If Jacoby goes south on them like he did this year they will make the switch to the new kid and let Jacoby walk at the end of the year.  

 

I know that won’t be popular but that’s what I think they will do.  

 

I do think Ballard is going to go shopping for a couple of weapons for Jacoby and we will see how much of the struggles is Jacoby and how much is playing with TY and Doyle and a bunch of practice squad guys.  

[Hoose]

51 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I think what we have to do with Brissett and the offence is really step back and do a fair evaluation. Evaluate from  when they were 5 and 2 and what went right. Evaluate the second half when they went on their slide.  Can it be fixed or do we need new pieces?  I know Brissett and the team denies it but I am wondering if Brissett is injured.  He has not been the same since hurting his knee. I kind of hope that is the reason cause I can work with that explanation. Now the defence.  To me that is more worrisome. They need major pieces on the interior of the D line.  I am more for drafting heavy on the interior and in free agency then going after a qb early.  Top 3 picks. D line and maybe a reciever.

I like your post. But if a top QB the brass believes in falls to them in the first round, you have to jump. Use the next two picks on a top DT and a top WR. QB, DT, and WR......the three most critical needs for the Colts going forward. 

[GoColts8818]

2 minutes ago, Hoose said:

I like your post. But if a top QB the brass believes in falls to them in the first round, you have to jump. Use the next two picks on a top DT and a top WR. QB, DT, and WR......the three most critical needs for the Colts going forward. 

With three picks in the top two rounds it’s very possible they could get all three in the first two rounds.  I will say don’t sleep on another pass rusher.  Houston only signed a two year deal I believe and isn’t getting any younger. I know Turey showed promise before getting hurt but the Colts don’t really have anyone doing much in terms of pass rushing after Houston.  Also Sheard is a free agent and while I wouldn’t mind having him back I could see the Colts wanting to get younger there.

[superrep1967]

16 hours ago, Restored said:

I agree that Andrew would be welcomed back with open arms. I also understand Irsay’s approach since you can’t hold out hope that he returns.

 

This is speculation on my part but I think he has had conversations with Andrew during the season so far and he doesn’t anticipate Andrew coming back this offseason but might leave the door open for after that.

 

it would certainly make for an interesting scenario if the Colts draft a QB this offseason and then Andrew comes back somewhere down the road.

Your are correct the Colts can't wait around to see if he's going to come back or not. I think they'll going to be looking to draft one and seeing what's it's going to take to get who they want. 

[GoColts8818]

Just now, superrep1967 said:

Your are correct the Colts can't wait around to see if he's going to come back or not. I think they'll going to be looking to draft one and seeing what's going to take to get who they want. 

Yeah I think that was the real point of what Irsay was saying, they aren’t waiting to see if Andrew comes back or not.  They are moving on like he’s not.  If he does comeback they will deal with it then just like they dealt with retirement when it happened.  Not everything can be prepared for.  Sometimes you just have to react.

[superrep1967]

27 minutes ago, Hoose said:

I like your post. But if a top QB the brass believes in falls to them in the first round, you have to jump. Use the next two picks on a top DT and a top WR. QB, DT, and WR......the three most critical needs for the Colts going forward. 

I agree with you 

[King Colt]

JB will be the starter next year. Look at his W-L before and after his injury in the Steelers game plus you can't blame him for all of the losses when Vinateri was kicking sideways. The consensus is the injury is affecting his accuracy. If not, then look for another QB but who are they going to go after?  I forget, how many super Bowls did Luck guide the team to?

[Four2itus]

4 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Dilfer (2000) only started 8 games that year, had almost as many INTs as TDs. The D might have scored more TDs than him (#1 D in the league).

 

Flacco (2012) threw for 3800 yards that year. He also average almost 300 yards per game and close to 3 passing TDs in the playoffs. Is that game manager?

 

Twist it all you want, the likelihood of average or below average QBs, or game mangers, winning SBs is far less than a team with a good QB. You know it, and everyone else knows it.

Thanks for answering my question. 1 SB win by a game manager, and 1 SB win by an elite (?) QB. Colts have 1 SB win by an elite QB, and one play away from a SB by a game manager. Well golly, sure does explain the reason why nearly everyone is on board the "Get a new QB train". I mean....with the disparity in those numbers...who could argue?

 

 

[esmort]

2 hours ago, King Colt said:

JB will be the starter next year. Look at his W-L before and after his injury in the Steelers game plus you can't blame him for all of the losses when Vinateri was kicking sideways. The consensus is the injury is affecting his accuracy. If not, then look for another QB but who are they going to go after?  I forget, how many super Bowls did Luck guide the team to?

 

[ColtJax]

There's several good QB's in this draft that can fall to us. Fromm might, Jake Eason should, Jalen Hurts should. Next year besides the top one ( Lawarence ) there will be Fields, who might be just as good.. JB isn't a bad QB, he's a above average back up but an 8-8 starter..

[coltfaninnewyork]

9 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Best QB's I have ever seen here in Indy are:

Peyton

Luck

Harbaugh

I would put Jacoby 4th

-that is 36 years worth.

Lol Jack Trudeau was better than JB

[DougDew]

9 hours ago, The Old Crow said:

Flacco had 11 TD’s and 0 Int’s with a 117.2 passer rating in the playoffs in 2012. He won that game in Denver with a bomb to Jacoby Jones. I think it’s fair to say, at least in the 2012 playoffs , Flacco was not a game manager. With a mediocre 12th ranked defense , he was a major factor in that Super Bowl. 
The 2015-2017 version of Joe Flacco was definitely a run of the mill game manager. 

But didn't Flacco achieve those stats by simply throwing up long bombs that were questionable decisions and his receivers came down with them, or the DB fell down or got turned around?  It wasn't just that one to JJ, he had about five of them in the playoffs.  IIRC he was very mediocre outside of those somewhat lucky plays, which I concede were at critical moments.

 

No Ints is great, but that's the sign of a game manager, not a downfield passer.

[DougDew]

5 hours ago, Four2itus said:

Thanks for answering my question. 1 SB win by a game manager, and 1 SB win by an elite (?) QB. Colts have 1 SB win by an elite QB, and one play away from a SB by a game manager. Well golly, sure does explain the reason why nearly everyone is on board the "Get a new QB train". I mean....with the disparity in those numbers...who could argue?

 

 

Manning actually won that SB game by being a game manager, not to mention much more so leaned towards being a GM the entire playoffs more than his usual down field stuff. (Outside of the first game, the DEN? game I think.)

 

1st rounder Marlin Jackson's pick sealed the AFCCG, and 2nd rounder Hayden's pick 6 sealed the SB.

[Nickster]

10 hours ago, Four2itus said:

Not being negative has nothing to do with being naive. It has everything to do with choosing to be positive, and reaping the benefits as a fan, from making that choice. I am positive all the freaking time......and am not surprised in the least when things don't go right. 

 

In some ways, it is the opposite of being "real" and miserable/dissapointed/depressed/etc.

False positivity is perhaps the single most destructive force for humanity.

[The Old Crow]

18 minutes ago, DougDew said:

But didn't Flacco achieve those stats by simply throwing up long bombs that were questionable decisions and his receivers came down with them, or the DB fell down or got turned around?  It wasn't just that one to JJ, he had about five of them in the playoffs.  IIRC he was very mediocre outside of those somewhat lucky plays, which I concede were at critical moments.

 

No Ints is great, but that's the sign of a game manager, not a downfield passer.

He was pretty good from 2008-2014. He  led the team to three AFCCG appearances in addition to being MVP of the Super Bowl. He was also 2-2 at NE in the playoffs , and both losses he played well, and they should have won. 
For his career he completed 61% of his passes , with 218 TD’s against 141 Int’s. He had an overall 84.2 passer rating. 
So if he was a game manager, he may very well be at the top of the game manager list. 
The problem from 2015-17, and the Denver year, is that he didn’t throw long and became a dinker and dunker. Also, the Ravens were  guilty of not getting good WR talent around Flacco during his tenure. They had a few guys over the years, Torrey Smith, Boldin, Steve Smith , but generally they were getting older receivers because Ozzie failed at that position at the draft. He finally hit paydirt in the last draft, but it benefitted Lamar.