Rapport: Colts expected to be in QB Market after talks with irsay

[Myles]

9 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Best QB's I have ever seen here in Indy are:

Peyton

Luck

Harbaugh

I would put Jacoby 4th

-that is 36 years worth.

In about the same amount of seasons, mine is a bit different.   JB is nowhere near the top 5.

 

Manning

Luck

Harbaugh - This is only because the drop off is so much and Harbaugh is the only one with several years starting.   Harbaugh was not that good, outside of 1995.   I think the near Superbowl run has us feeling better about him.  

4th spot is where I would put Hasselback over JB.

[Dingus McGirt]

Have the Indianapolis Colts had five QB's worthy of any discussion?  I say not.  Manning, Luck and (maybe) Harbaugh can be said to be the only three of real worth.  After them, the gap is precipitous.  

[boo2202]

The problem with JB is that he’s just good enough to keep us from a top 10 pick each year. I mean at some point we’ll have to trade up and grab our guy at QB. This team isn’t bengal, redskins, panthers, or lions bad. We got just enough talent to put us in the mid teens each year. So you guys clamoring for fields or lawerence, sorry not going to happen. I hate trading away picks but with the extra second, this is the year to do it. Don’t think I can watch another game with JB at QB, after yesterday. He couldn’t look decent vs a terrible panthers team. 

[MPStack]

4 minutes ago, Dingus McGirt said:

Have the Indianapolis Colts had five QB's worthy of any discussion?  I say not.  Manning, Luck and (maybe) Harbaugh can be said to be the only three of real worth.  After them, the gap is precipitous.  

Since moving to Indianapolis, absolutely not! I don’t even like the Harbaugh/JB comparison, because Harbaugh actually lead his team to the AFC Championship game. 

[Superman]

13 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Yup, Flacco actually had 6 or 7 really good years. That year in the playoffs, he averaged almost 300 a game and 3 TD without any INTs. That was pretty elite.

 

He was incredibly productive in the playoffs, and was one of the best deep ball throwers (by the numbers) in the NFL. He showed the ability to take his game to another level in the postseason, and the team would not have won without him making big plays. (They also got some help from Rahim Moore blowing a coverage on a near-hail mary situation.)

 

Flacco was absolutely a game manager, but that postseason, he was able to make plays when the team needed them. Which is generally the way it goes with SB teams. Even if the QB isn't the main difference maker, there will be a few times every game where the QB has to make a play, usually in the passing game (duh, he's the QB). Flacco did.

[PeterBowman]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

He was incredibly productive in the playoffs, and was one of the best deep ball throwers (by the numbers) in the NFL. He showed the ability to take his game to another level in the postseason, and the team would not have won without him making big plays. (They also got some help from Rahim Moore blowing a coverage on a near-hail mary situation.)

 

Flacco was absolutely a game manager, but that postseason, he was able to make plays when the team needed them. Which is generally the way it goes with SB teams. Even if the QB isn't the main difference maker, there will be a few times every game where the QB has to make a play, usually in the passing game (duh, he's the QB). Flacco did.

Yep, that post season got Flacco paid too. 

 

I think that 2012 Ravens team was a more balanced team than the 2002 with Dilfer(not better just more balanced). 

Manning's last SB with Denver and the 2002 Ravens, New Englands first SB run with Brady,Seattle's SB win etc show that you can win with sub par to average qb play. But you need a dominant(generational defense) and running game. 

[Rackeen305]

On 12/22/2019 at 9:39 AM, Jared Cisneros said:

That probably means he's remaining on the team (most likely as a backup). I still believe we'll draft a QB. If not, Irsay deserves whatever he gets attendance-wise next year.

They'll draft Painter's cousin, QB Chris Painter to solidify the job.

[stitches]

15 hours ago, Fisticuffs111 said:

 

See, I actually believe Frank believes that. I think back to what he’s said about conversations with Ballard in regards to upgrading the roster, stuff like “I tell Chris, I can win with these guys. Just let me coach these guys.”

 

Then again, it’s not solely up to him. I really, really wish I could hear a convo between Reich and Ballard about the QB situation this offseason.

Frank's job is to win with whatever we have on the roster. I don't fault him for having this type of attitude. The good thing is that he will say the same thing whether his QB is Luck or Jacoby or rookie QB X.

 

Ballard's job on the other hand is to improve the roster and give Frank a team that can win consistently long-term. I personally doubt that Colts' management is happy with the situation at QB for the Colts. 

[stitches]

 

15 hours ago, Four2itus said:

How many SB's have the Colts won in the last 40 years with elite QB's?

How many SBs do you expect the Colts to win in the next 40 years if they had the QB performance of Jacoby Brissett in the 2019 season? 

 

This is such a horrible... horrible argument... 

[Coltsman1788]

I doubt that Ballard uses free agency to upgrade from Brissett.  Reich said Jacoby is the guy and Irsay said they will roll with Jacoby and see what the draft brings. Ballard will try to draft someone from a very unimpressive quarterback class.  That guy won’t be better than Brissett next season so Colts fans better warm up to another year of Jacoby under center while the rookie QB sits and learns.  Also Jordan Love is over rated and not the answer in my opinion.  Ballard supposedly loves him but Love is raw and only has a deep ball game.  Can’t read defenses and is inaccurate in the short to intermediate passing game.  Also throws a ton of interceptions.  No thank you.   At this point...our best hope is for Luck to unretire and return under center.  But that’s not likely. 

[The Fish]

32 minutes ago, stitches said:

 

How many SBs do you expect the Colts to win in the next 40 years if they had the QB performance of Jacoby Brissett in the 2019 season? 

 

This is such a horrible... horrible argument... 

 

It's not a great point, agreed. Sidebar that some of you won't like (I don't love it, but it's fair and it broadly explains the story of the Colts). How many "elite" QB's can be in the game at anyone time? The dictionary says "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society". This does at least imply that the second best isn't elite (edit, yeah, other definition  "the best of a class") . Historically Tom Brady is going to go down as the GOAT in most people's mind, right?. That'd make Peyton #2 in his era? The Colts had awesome QB play for 20 years or so, mostly, between Manning and Luck and even that only produced 1 SB win. I take from that, that it's hard to do even when things are good, not that you don't need a good QB to win. You most certainly do.

[stitches]

10 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

It's not a great point, agreed. Sidebar that some of you won't like (I don't love it, but it's fair and it broadly explains the story of the Colts). How many "elite" QB's can be in the game at anyone time? The dictionary says "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society". This does at least imply that the second best isn't elite. Historically Tom Brady is going to go down as the GOAT in most people's mind, right?. That'd make Peyton #2 in his era? The Colts had awesome QB play for 20 years or so, mostly, between Manning and Luck and even that only produced 1 SB win. I take from that, that it's hard to do even when things are good, not that you don't need a good QB to win. You most certainly do.

Superbowls are generally extremely hard to get. Even if you have great roster and great QB you still will need luck to get there and win it because there are a lot of outside factors impacting who wins - injuries, chance, meeting particularly bad matchup on the way to a superbowl, other teams that have similarly strong rosters and QBs, etc. The best you can do really is give yourself a good shot at it. And this is when you have both the QB and the roster to contend. Manning had that in some of his years and didn't have it in others. Luck never had it. The closest he came to having a good enough roster was last year. IMO this year we might have actually had a shot at it. But alas... wasn't meant to be. 

[Myles]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

 

 

Ballard's job on the other hand is to improve the roster and give Frank a team that can win consistently long-term. I personally doubt that Colts' management is happy with the situation at QB for the Colts. 

I hope the Panthers game has Irsay's, Ballard's and Reich's eyes wide open.   The team played great except for Brissett.  That game show'd our weakest link under a magnifying glass.

 

[Four2itus]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

 

How many SBs do you expect the Colts to win in the next 40 years if they had the QB performance of Jacoby Brissett in the 2019 season? 

 

This is such a horrible... horrible argument... 

Did you even go back to what I was responding too with that statement? You know what horrible argument I am tired of?....The idea that just because we aren't winning as many games as fans want, that the front office needs to do it differently. The arrogance in this forum is astounding. I'll guarantee you that if we could somehow switch QB's to one that most of these complaining fans truly feel is an upgrade and have them play the Colts season exactly how it went down for Brissett....and we could just as likely see the same results or even worse. I have never seen more hindsight brilliance from a group of fans in my 50 years of following sports. 

 

I don't know what Brissett's ceiling is, but I sure as hell know that this team is being built right, and it serves zero purpose to constantly degrade our QB. He's a Colt, for Christ's sake. 

 

You know what else is horrible? The fact that my team just won a game in dominant fashion, in a way they really haven't all season.......and there is thread after thread about how bad the QB is, how bad the play calling is, how the GM is failing, and how stupid we were for not losing the game. It is one of the most pathetic displays of fandom I have witnessed. 

[stitches]

Just now, Myles said:

I hope the Panthers game has Irsay's, Ballard's and Reich's eyes wide open.   The team played great except for Brissett.  That game show'd our weakest link under a magnifying glass.

 

I don't even think he played bad. He just was... to a large degree a non-factor. Which you can afford against the bottom tier teams in the league when you have a relatively good roster. You cannot afford it against the really good teams, though, unless your D and run game are incredible. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

 

How many SBs do you expect the Colts to win in the next 40 years if they had the QB performance of Jacoby Brissett in the 2019 season? 

 

This is such a horrible... horrible argument... 

 

Of course it is. 

 

There's a very specious assertion that having a good and highly paid QB makes it nearly impossible to win a SB, and it's been repeated so many times that people have latched onto it as established fact. 

 

It's total nonsense. Get the best players you can, at every position. Roster management and cap management are a different concern entirely, but no team that wants to win consistently is going to shy away from having a good, highly paid QB. At some point this argument is going to have to be put to rest.

[Myles]

53 minutes ago, Coltsman1788 said:

I doubt that Ballard uses free agency to upgrade from Brissett.  Reich said Jacoby is the guy and Irsay said they will roll with Jacoby and see what the draft brings. Ballard will try to draft someone from a very unimpressive quarterback class.  That guy won’t be better than Brissett next season so Colts fans better warm up to another year of Jacoby under center while the rookie QB sits and learns.  Also Jordan Love is over rated and not the answer in my opinion.  Ballard supposedly loves him but Love is raw and only has a deep ball game.  Can’t read defenses and is inaccurate in the short to intermediate passing game.  Also throws a ton of interceptions.  No thank you.   At this point...our best hope is for Luck to unretire and return under center.  But that’s not likely. 

We are in agreement.   I'm afraid we'll have another Brissett season of .500 ball.   What a waste for a good young team.  

A comparison can be made with the Browns.   It's obvious that Kitchens is in over his head and shouldn't be the Head Coach next season.  However, some in the Browns Org are saying he will be back.   It's as glaring that he is not the guy as it is that Brissett isn't the guy.   Indy and Cleveland both have talented teams that will be wasted if they do not make a change.  

[Superman]

41 minutes ago, The Fish said:

How many "elite" QB's can be in the game at anyone time? The dictionary says "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society". This does at least imply that the second best isn't elite (edit, yeah, other definition  "the best of a class") .

 

I don't agree with that interpretation of "elite." It refers to the highest quality of the group, but it isn't necessarily singular. 

 

However, I definitely agree that the word "elite" gets overused, especially in reference to QBs. To me, there are no more than a handful of elite QBs in the NFL at any given time. There's always a clear line of demarcation between the top of the class, and everyone else. 

[Myles]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

I don't even think he played bad. He just was... to a large degree a non-factor. Which you can afford against the bottom tier teams in the league when you have a relatively good roster. You cannot afford it against the really good teams, though, unless your D and run game are incredible. 

I can somewhat get on board with that.  He wasn't bad in a way that it cost us the game.  We had the game under control, so not much was asked of him.

But 51% completion for 119 yards and a 63.7 rating certainly cannot be regarded as good.   

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 hours ago, Myles said:

In about the same amount of seasons, mine is a bit different.   JB is nowhere near the top 5.

 

Manning

Luck

Harbaugh - This is only because the drop off is so much and Harbaugh is the only one with several years starting.   Harbaugh was not that good, outside of 1995.   I think the near Superbowl run has us feeling better about him.  

4th spot is where I would put Hasselback over JB.

If we would've had Seahawks Hasselbeck I would agree. When we got him he was old.  He had a couple of good games here but didn't play enough IMO to qualify for my list. 

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, Myles said:

I can somewhat get on board with that.  He wasn't bad in a way that it cost us the game.  We had the game under control, so not much was asked of him.

But 51% completion for 119 yards and a 63.7 rating certainly cannot be regarded as good.   

 

Yup. Even though he wasn't needed to make any plays, a 51% completion rate kind of suggests he wasn't able to.

 

(And to give him some credit, there were some bad drops by receivers that shut the offense down at times.)

[stitches]

1 minute ago, Four2itus said:

Did you even go back to what I was responding too with that statement? You know what horrible argument I am tired of?....The idea that just because we aren't winning as many games as fans want, that the front office needs to do it differently. The arrogance in this forum is astounding. I'll guarantee you that if we could somehow switch QB's to one that most of these complaining fans truly feel is an upgrade and have them play the Colts season exactly how it went down for Brissett....and we could just as likely see the same results or even worse. I have never seen more hindsight brilliance from a group of fans in my 50 years of following sports. 

 

Yes, I saw what you were responding to... a perfectly reasonable comment. 

 

That's actually not the case with a few of us here. We were sounding the alarm on how mediocre of a performance Brissett was having even when we were 5-2. Most of those wins came despite him, rather than because of him. He was missing open receivers back then just like he's missing them in the losses in the last half of the season. Now some things have gotten worse since his injury(his accuracy and mechanics have suffered and I'm actually willing to attribute some of it to him trying to overcompensate for his injury, which is resulting in inconsistent delivery and poor accuracy post-injury). From the very start of the season I said I don't much care about the results this year and that I wanted this year to be about evaluating Brissett as a QB. I tried to actually disassociate the scores from what Jacoby was doing, because I thought this is the most important thing to learn this year and possibly for the next half a decade for the Colts- whether Brissett is the future of the position for us. I loved his performances in some of the losses(Chargers), I hated his performances in some of the wins(Chiefs, Broncos, etc.). For me in particular it never was about the results this year. I wanted to see him high level plays and I wanted to see him move the ball and make the plays that need to be made. IMO he failed that test in the duration of the season.

 

 

Quote

 

I don't know what Brissett's ceiling is, but I sure as hell know that this team is being built right, and it serves zero purpose to constantly degrade our QB. He's a Colt, for Christ's sake. 

 

 

I'm not trying to degrade him. But again - at the same time, I feel like we need to have a clear idea about what Brissett is and what he isn't before we(well... not WE, but Ballard) need to make a decision about him one way or the other. I don't have any negative feelings about him whatsoever. In fact, he seems like a great young man with exemplary attitude and he carried himself with the appropriate responsibility and honor on the field and off the field while wearing the Colts jersey. He's a solid player in the league, but unfortunately this is not enough at this position in particular. 

 

Quote

You know what else is horrible? The fact that my team just won a game in dominant fashion, in a way they really haven't all season.......and there is thread after thread about how bad the QB is, how bad the play calling is, how the GM is failing, and how stupid we were for not losing the game. It is one of the most pathetic displays of fandom I have witnessed. 

Umh... don't know how to respond to this one. I don't share many of those opinions and if in small ways I share some of them I'd like to think I would say my peace in a respectful way. 

[Myles]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

If we would've had Seahawks Hasselbeck I would agree. When we got him he was old.  He had a couple of good games here but didn't play enough IMO to qualify for my list. 

I kind of felt the same, but that didn't leave many other choices.   

[Myles]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Yup. Even though he wasn't needed to make any plays, a 51% completion rate kind of suggests he wasn't able to.

 

(And to give him some credit, there were some bad drops by receivers that shut the offense down at times.)

It was kind of on par to what he has done this season.  

Out of 32 NFL QB's for the season:

QBR - 17th

Rating - 18th

Comp % - 25th

TD% - 21st

INT% - 9th -

Yards per game - 30th

I know the injuries have hurt him some, but I don't think it has effected him dramatically.

Carson Wentz has had most of his receivers injured and he is better in every one of those categories.  I think Wentz is probably the around the 12th best QB in the league.   

[BleedBlue4Shoe86]

19 minutes ago, Myles said:

I can somewhat get on board with that.  He wasn't bad in a way that it cost us the game.  We had the game under control, so not much was asked of him.

But 51% completion for 119 yards and a 63.7 rating certainly cannot be regarded as good.   

All I'm gonna say here is that he had 3 very clear drops by his receivers.  They were clear enough that Mark Schlereth called them out.  He said you got a QB that has been struggling, you have to make those catches.  Before you jump on me, he did also say JB had to be better on several balls.

 

but my original point was that if you give JB those 3 drops back he is 17/27 and his completion% is 63%.  Drops do matter.  I believe I looked it up and the colts had somewhere near 25 this year.  That is huge. If you added those in his completion would be around 68% on the year. 

 

Context matters.

[King Colt]

The Colts need outside pass rushers before another QB.

[MPStack]

3 minutes ago, King Colt said:

The Colts need outside pass rushers before another QB.

So, we’re giving up on Turay and Banogu already? Two 2nd Rd picks and Houston coming back in 2020. 
 

 

[Myles]

16 minutes ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

All I'm gonna say here is that he had 3 very clear drops by his receivers.  They were clear enough that Mark Schlereth called them out.  He said you got a QB that has been struggling, you have to make those catches.  Before you jump on me, he did also say JB had to be better on several balls.

 

but my original point was that if you give JB those 3 drops back he is 17/27 and his completion% is 63%.  Drops do matter.  I believe I looked it up and the colts had somewhere near 25 this year.  That is huge. If you added those in his completion would be around 68% on the year. 

 

Context matters.

I can't blame dropped passes much.   Every team (QB) has them.  In fact Indy is 11-16th (8 teams tied at 23 after week 14) in the NFL.   Pretty much middle of the pack.  Wentz and Philly has more than the Colts.  

 

[BleedBlue4Shoe86]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

I can't blame dropped passes much.   Every team (QB) has them.  In fact Indy is 11-16th (8 teams tied at 23 after week 14) in the NFL.   Pretty much middle of the pack.  Wentz and Philly has more than the Colts.  

 

First no one is saying JB is Wentz. Wentz is way more talented. But secondly, you made my point. Wentz is way better, has more drops and the Eagles are only 1 win better than Colts. Drops do matter. 

[AwesomeAustin]

19 hours ago, TheMiz said:

Tom Brady has won a couple.

Also Peyton Manning won one as a barely serviceable game manager

Not picking on you but I totally don’t get why people think Tom Brady is a game manager. He just passed Peyton Manning in TDs and I also believe yards or he is really close. Brady, Manning and Brees are all prolific passers that showed text book execution of take what the defense gives you and maximize. Brady also had great defenses making the perfect storm that won 6 championships. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Not picking on you but I totally don’t get why people think Tom Brady is a game manager. He just passed Peyton Manning in TDs and I also believe yards or he is really close. Brady, Manning and Brees are all prolific passers that showed text book execution of take what the defense gives you and maximize. Brady also had great defenses making the perfect storm that won 6 championships. 

Tom doesn't get the credit from some because he has had Belichick as coach. Tom is arguably the GOAT, many in the media think he is. It is always in the back of my head though how much he and his team has cheated.

[Myles]

40 minutes ago, BleedBlue4Shoe86 said:

First no one is saying JB is Wentz. Wentz is way more talented. But secondly, you made my point. Wentz is way better, has more drops and the Eagles are only 1 win better than Colts. Drops do matter. 

Yes, Wentz is more talented and he is only like the 12th best QB in the league.   Drops do matter, but they matter for all QB's.  You can't say Brissetts stats would be better and not include every other QB.  So I think Brissett would be ranking nearly the same in all these categories if we took the drops away from every QB.

 

Out of 32 NFL QB's for the season:

QBR - 17th

Rating - 18th

Comp % - 25th

TD% - 21st

INT% - 9th -

Yards per game - 30th

[AwesomeAustin]

Luck retiring set us back 5-7yrs.  We were poised to make a leap in the next couple of years and battle with Houston, KC and Baltimore for a spot in the SB.  Unfortunately this happens and by the time the team finds a QB, it will need rebuilt around him.  I don’t see Indy competing for a SB for the next decade.   Honestly, I don’t see them making the playoffs 4-5 times before 2030. Still a fan and will watch anyways

[PeterBowman]

52 minutes ago, King Colt said:

The Colts need outside pass rushers before another QB.

I'd actually prefer one who can disrupt the middle...Turay, Banagu and Houston are good on the outside. 

[Myles]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Tom doesn't get the credit from some because he has had Belichick as coach. Tom is arguably the GOAT, many in the media think he is. It is always in the back of my head though how much he and his team has cheated.

I would put Tom somewhere around 4th-6th best that I have seen in my life.

Behind

Marino

Manning

Montana

Young

 

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, AwesomeAustin said:

Not picking on you but I totally don’t get why people think Tom Brady is a game manager. He just passed Peyton Manning in TDs and I also believe yards or he is really close. Brady, Manning and Brees are all prolific passers that showed text book execution of take what the defense gives you and maximize. Brady also had great defenses making the perfect storm that won 6 championships. 

 

First two rings (arguably, three), Brady was an average to above average QB on a great team with an awesome coaching staff. He also was able to make some plays here and there, but he was not a top notch QB. It wasn't until 2004 or 2005 that Brady really became Brady. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, Myles said:

I would put Tom somewhere around 4th-6th best that I have seen in my life.

Behind

Marino

Manning

Montana

Young

 

If I include the cheat factor I think Montana and Peyton were the only 2 better, without the cheat factor Tom is probably #1. Thing is, I think Tom could've won without cheating but I believe he and the Pats have cheated at times that is what bugs me. 

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

I would put Tom somewhere around 4th-6th best that I have seen in my life.

Behind

Marino

Manning

Montana

Young

 

 

And he's still the GOAT, and has had a better career than all of those guys.

[Myles]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

And he's still the GOAT, and has had a better career than all of those guys.

I agree.   With the championships and all.   Just saying as a football fan of 35 plus years, Marino, Manning, Montana and Young are the best I have seen.   

Of course the Pats record in games that Brady has missed doesn't do him any favors.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

And he's still the GOAT, and has had a better career than all of those guys.

yeah almost every list I have ever seen by the media that covers football has,

1. Tom

2. Montana

3. Peyton 

Some do have Unitas in the top 3.