The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)

[GwinnettColt]

Grigson should go. 

 

He hasn't given Pagano what he needs to build a good O-line to protect the franchise QB.  He has brought in mediocre FA's in more cases than not.  I'll give him credit for Gore and Davis.  He drafted a WR, that we will eventually use more, but we had more pressing needs at the time.  

 

 

[MTC]

Well if you fire Grigson, I would have to assume the new GM would want Pagano gone too (unless we promote Jimmy Raye III).

[DougDew]

Jim needs to find out the reason for any dysfunction in the organization...not just observe that there is dysfunction then randomly fire people.  He probably is already aware of the reasons things have been going on.  But any subsequent press release isn't necessarily going to be 100% revealing.

 

This situation has been brewing since last summer and the fouled contract extension.  If we want to have an accurate assessment of the current situation, we need to know the dynamics of what went into the offer back then.  Its a shame, because I have not read anything that suggests anybody knows what went on then.   That is really the key, IMO.

[The Old Crow]

My two cents worth is Irsay is firing the wrong guy. I think Grigson deserves more blame than Pagano. He was hired to improve the defense , and get an offensive line to protect Luck. The results are obvious. If you have to make changes, better to can both. 

 

I I think Irsay tired of being the kid owner,  to the old statesmen/ GM Bill Polian. Hiring Grigson was Irsay's coming out party for him being the elder statesman owner, and Grigson, the kid GM. Grigson will probably bow down more to Irsay's wishes, while Polian would probably tell him he would take it under advisement. It's that dynamic that will probably keep Grigson employed, and Pagano the scapegoat. 

 

 

[azcolt]

Grigano

[DougDew]

Is there a coordinated effort here or something?

 

I find it interesting that Kravitz comes out with a nonOp Ed Op Ed article guiding people how to look at it, then there is a poll asking which one is worse.

 

What would the results be if we asked the same question 5 minutes after Griff Whalen snapped the ball?

[ColtRider]

5 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think we will be fine, ok overall as a franchise because we have Andrew Luck and I do think Irsay is a great owner. As far as winning another SB we need a better O.Line and a dominate Pass Rusher. I know I am Mr .Obvious by saying that but that is it. We will see what this next Draft brings and Free Agency. I am just pleased after Peyton we have been Very Good and Andrew wasn't a bust. We have won a lot of games after Peyton and went to a Final 4 at least so far. Peyton was so great, most people took wins for granted. We were automatic 12-4 at worse for 7 straight years and could've went undefeated twice.

 

A non-complaining all true post. Well, whatta ya know about that? Nice, '06CBE.

[pacolts56]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

You can't lay all that out there and say you don't want to get into why Jim isn't all that competent anymore.  Did he fall down and scramble his eggs or something?

Jimmy took a risk pairing a 1st time GM and 1st time HC and he either didn't clearly outline Grigson and Pagano's roles at the outset or he didn't address whatever problems they developed early enough.

 

Jimmy isn't a bad owner but in large measure he's clearly allowed this to deteriorate beyond repair.  

 

Maybe a decade+ of relative stability and predictability under Polian contributed.... but it's still on him to recognize it and straighten it out before it becomes such a mess.

[BOTT]

1 minute ago, pacolts56 said:

Jimmy took a risk pairing a 1st time GM and 1st time HC and he either didn't clearly outline Grigson and Pagano's roles at the outset or he didn't address whatever problems they developed early enough.

 

Jimmy isn't a bad owner but in large measure he's clearly allowed this to deteriorate beyond repair.  

 

Maybe a decade+ of relative stability and predictability under Polian contributed.... but it's still on him to recognize it and straighten it out before it becomes such a mess.

That's all fine. But the OP seemed to insinuate something and just left in hanging.

[BOTT]

11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Is there a coordinated effort here or something?

 

I find it interesting that Kravitz comes out with a nonOp Ed Op Ed article guiding people how to look at it, then there is a poll asking which one is worse.

 

What would the results be if we asked the same question 5 minutes after Griff Whalen snapped the ball?

Conspiracy!

[DougDew]

7 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Conspiracy!

My coordinated effort comment was a joke.

 

But the timing of poll pretty much guides what the answers will be don't ya think?  Especially, considering the responses are citing the material just published.

 

 

[pacolts56]

10 minutes ago, BOTT said:

That's all fine. But the OP seemed to insinuate something and just left in hanging.

Agreed....the idea that Jimmy has gone down the tubes as an owner is wrong.

 

I chalk it up to a bold but risky GM/HC approach....one that I'm sure no one thought would crap out the way it has.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mahagga73]

17 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Out of all of this I wonder how Andrew feels? He is our best player and Franchise QB. He may not want Pagano gone, so if Pagano goes he may not be happy at that point. I seriously doubt he speaks on the situation because he is so well mannered and it's not his nature to get involved in personnel decisions but maybe he should say something being the QB.

If he didn't try to be Jerome Bettis against the Broncos all this is a moot point. He stunk badly this year. A lot of it was pass protection and a lot of it was horrible decision making.  Luck has a huge part in this trainwreck. 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Are you really serious about not knowing what the OP didn't think it was necessary to say, "left hanging"?

It's well known and publishisised about his battle with substance dependency issues.

 

[Rally5]

58 minutes ago, BOTT said:

You can't lay all that out there and say you don't want to get into why Jim isn't all that competent anymore.  Did he fall down and scramble his eggs or something?

C'mon man, no need to air the mans dirty laundry.  It's well documented.

[ColtRider]

8 minutes ago, mahagga73 said:

If he didn't try to be Jerome Bettis against the Broncos all this is a mute point. He stunk badly this year. A lot of it was pass protection and a lot of it was horrible decision making.  Luck has a huge part in this trainwreck. 

 

Please define Luck's huge part in this trainwreck. Injury? Play? What?

[IndyD4U]

I attended Pat McAfee's NYE event in Indy. Besides busting my gut from laughing so hard and ringing in the New Year with Pat,  Hasselbeck, Herron, and Whalen, to name a few, McAfee took several "shots" an Grigson. Basically putting it out there that he's an * and that the players aren't real fond of him either. He kept saying how much he and his team mates love Pagano and would do anything for him. I guess Grigs wanted to fine Pat within the Organization for his Twitter exchange he had last week, but Pagano came to his aid. 

 

Interesting little tidbit, for what it's worth 

Edited January 1, 2016 by Superman

[Jdubu]

First of all, nobody on this forum knows exactly what's happened behind the curtain. Irsay knows the parameters of he deals for both Griggs and Pags. If Griggs truly overstepped the GM responsibility of picking the coaches for the head coach against Pags objection, then that will fall on Griggs in the end if Irsay is doing his due diligence and that wasn't part of the contract that Griggs gets full control of picking assistant coaches. If it was, then it was probably too much control for a rookie GM. We don't know if these names were placed in front of Pags and he initially agreed either. We don't know, only Irsay, Grigs and pags know for sure. 

 

Mess for taking Grigs as a rookie GM and Pags as a rookie head coach, these were 2 top hot candidates to get during that period of time. One would think with the structure already in place and Irsay being around this stuff for some 30+ years would help get the 2 rookies off to a good start and having a top notch QB as the 1st pick to restart a franchise. It just didn't work out and I don't fault Irsay for picking 2 rookies to run this show. I fault some bad coaching along the way and one awful trade (albeit retrospective) for TRich and a 1st Rd pick. Now unless Grigs has been involved in dictating how game plans go, our game planning over 4 years have been mostly awful to maybe mediocre at best. That's coaching and regardless of who your OC is, tweaking and executing a good plan falls on the head coach. 

 

Grigs has had mostly very solid drafts. Didn't hit on Werner it appears and that trade for TRich was a certain bust but even the great polian missed on drafts. If anyone recalls, he missed on virtually every 3rd round pick. Recall that bust defensive tackle free agent signing in Simon? Every GM misses. 

 

We we are surely going to find out who was at fault if both Grigs and Pags go. If Grigs stays, we will see if he either learned some valuable lessons as a rookie GM to apply to the next head coach or if Irsay has taken some power from him or if the same issues come up with the next team. I like Grigs scouting ability with everything except the oline (odd that he was an olineman). I still believe the ability of the oline falls on scheme and coaching. Get a better oline coach and that group should do better. May need a better center or more dominate guard. 

 

 

[bleevit]

Well, apparently the slightly more than average knowledge of these Forum posters recognize that Grigson is the greater problem.  The coaches all have exhibited success at this and other jobs. Grigson has exhibited poor results in both the draft and free agency. If I were in Irsay's shoes, I'd be a little upset about how my money had been spent. When you get Bjorn, Trent, and apparently brittle wideout with your first round picks, you're in trouble regardless of the coach. Having watched years and years of pre-Manning failures, I would hate to go back to a situation where we continue with this GM. Most people believe teams are made from the inside out with solid fronts on both sides of the ball. Constantly trying to "coach up" mediocre players and having no line depth is getting old.

[Coltsman1788]

If this is indeed true Ryan Griggson is indeed a cancer to this franchise and must be removed immediately. Unfortunately,  Pagano has also been infected and must go as well.  If he has allowed himself to be controlled and manipulated by Griggson to this extent, then he probably really isn't the coach that we need. He comes off as weak...unfortunately.  Irsay should have never allowed this dysfunction to happen.  Time for him to clean up this mess. 

[BOTT]

9 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

C'mon man, no need to air the mans dirty laundry.  It's well documented.

Being addicted to pain medication doesn't make you incompetent for the rest of your life.

[Rally5]

57 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

It's been 4 years, which is a reasonable time frame to figure out whether you've got your guys. They clearly aren't, so now he is doing something about it. Bad working relationships happen, sometimes guys get hire for jobs they aren't qualified for or turn out to not be able to do the job well.  It happens. Doesn't make Jim incompetent or a bad leader, especially since he is clearly doing some

I didn't say incompetent and I agree to a point but I'll go on record that he's not the man he once was and I think this current mess is fair evidence.  Front Office drama is simply unacceptable and falls into three categories:

1. Bad

2. Really Bad

3. Terminable

He needed to more, whatever that was, to quell it and he's enough of a football guy to know better.  You can't be the Captain and not own the ship.  

[theanarchist]

1 hour ago, Rally5 said:

I just read the Kravitz piece and saw all the comments about Grigs and Pags, not surprised if it's true.  What isn't being discussed is the ultimate leader of this organization is Jim Irsay.  If, in fact, this type of interference is true it can't be unknown to Jim.  If Jim then allows it to continue, that's his leadership issue.  Let's not also forget it was Jim that decided to part ways with Polian who, like him or not, is one of the best FO guys in NFL history and replace him with this current clown show.  Under this regime, the drafts, trades, line-ups, game plans have all been highly questionable.  I rarely felt that way under the Polian/Dungy regime, not that they were perfect of course but always highly competent leadership.  I worry that Jim isn't all that competent anymore himself for a variety of reasons that we need not get into, but these two guys came in both completely unproven in their roles and Jim "liked them immediately."  That's telling, concerning and perhaps not surprising considering what we're hearing.  So where's Jim's leadership in managing all this strife, he can't condone it, so how was it allowed to happen? In the future I would hope to find 2 NFL proven people (Coach and GM).  Ideally two people who are known to each other with some sort of agreeable work history.  Irsay should prioritize this with whatever search firm he's using.  The situation I'd like to see is (since nobody is asking):

 

• *A GM and HC that both report up to the Owner and decouple the HC reporting the GM relationship.  I think a HC has to have some personnel authority but not all, the job is  too big and complex for one guy.
• *HC has final say on all in season personnel decisions.
• *GM has final say on all draft and cap matters. 
• *Both report directly to the owner who breaks all impasses.

1.  

Problem is, I don't know if Irsay is still that guy....

 

The dark side clouds everything, impossible to see the future is.  -Yoda

 

 

I think you have to go back and look at the timing of the Polian firing. At the time it was not a bad decisions. Bill had turned over much of the drafting and other duties to his son Chris. The team hit the skids when Manning went down and it was clear the roster had suffered. So, the Polian firing wasnt anything other than what it was, it was time to part way. Irsay made a decision to hire Grigson who, at the time, was a well thought of player personnel guy up and coming in NFL circles. It just hasnt worked out. Its not like Jim fired the Poilian regime at its Zenith and then hired some guy off the street.

[NBColtsFanatic]

Can you quote how it was said? Or did they just infer it??

[Rally5]

4 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Being addicted to pain medication doesn't make you incompetent for the rest of your life.

You don't know much about Jim's history.

 

[BOTT]

yikes

[ThatOneColtFan]

Jim deserves some of the blame, I don't understand why some people here often throw the blanket over him and seemingly defend him.

 

If this turns out to be true. Then this is his mess as much as it is Grigson and Pagano's mess. Once the off season rolls around, Irsay needs to fully realize the most important asset to him is Andrew Luck.

[OffensivelyPC]

1 minute ago, Rally5 said:

I didn't say incompetent and I agree to a point but I'll go on record that he's not the man he once was and I think this current mess is fair evidence.  Front Office drama is simply unacceptable and falls into three categories:

1. Bad

2. Really Bad

3. Terminable

He needed to more, whatever that was, to quell it and he's enough of a football guy to know better.  You can't be the Captain and not own the ship.  

Isn't that what he us doing? I mean, you can't force two people to set aside their differences for them. It's throwing in the towel to do it midseason. The only thing he could have done is clean house a year soon, but I'm not going to say he's wrong for giving it one last shot when both guys are under contract through the year. Things might have been troubling before, but this year it exploded. Can't unring the bell now.

[BOTT]

3 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

You don't know much about Jim's history.

 

I do and I don't think it has anything to do with what's going on.  He made a poor hiring decision.  One that i expect him to correct in the coming weeks.

[theanarchist]

2 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

You don't know much about Jim's history.

 

What are you insinuating here?

[Rally5]

3 minutes ago, theanarchist said:

I think you have to go back and look at the timing of the Polian firing. At the time it was not a bad decisions. Bill had turned over much of the drafting and other duties to his son Chris. The team hit the skids when Manning went down and it was clear the roster had suffered. So, the Polian firing wasnt anything other than what it was, it was time to part way. Irsay made a decision to hire Grigson who, at the time, was a well thought of player personnel guy up and coming in NFL circles. It just hasnt worked out. Its not like Jim fired the Poilian regime at its Zenith and then hired some guy off the street.

Fair enough, I could also say the only success this franchise has ever know through both Irsay regimes was under the watch of Polian.  Jim's best decision he ever made was hiring Polian.  I'm not sure he wants to go down that path again but it may be more necessary now than in the past.  In addition, if you hire to 'rookies' then you better play an active role, as he stated he wanted to, as an owner.  I can't imagine chalking this up to "oh well he tried and failed, move on" when his stated goal was win multiple super bowls unlike the failed Manning era (which I don't agree with that sentiment ethier).  My point is, where is the owner that wanted his team back and then gave us this???  You can't absolve him of some responsibility.

[NewEra]

Where's there's smoke there's fire. Some if not all has to be true. Grigson needs to go NOW! I'm not 100% against Pagano. I think he got a raw deal. Do I think we can do better? Yes. It's just not easy to pinpoint with the deck stacked against you.

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

Fair enough, I could also say the only success this franchise has ever know through both Irsay regimes was under the watch of Polian.  Jim's best decision he ever made was hiring Polian.  I'm not sure he wants to go down that path again but it may be more necessary now than in the past.  In addition, if you hire to 'rookies' then you better play an active role, as he stated he wanted to, as an owner.  I can't imagine chalking this up to "oh well he tried and failed, move on" when his stated goal was win multiple super bowls unlike the failed Manning era (which I don't agree with that sentiment ethier).  My point is, where is the owner that wanted his team back and then gave us this???  You can't absolve him of some responsibility.

That first sentence isn't true.

[NewEra]

Grigson without a doubt

[Rally5]

5 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Isn't that what he us doing? I mean, you can't force two people to set aside their differences for them. It's throwing in the towel to do it midseason. The only thing he could have done is clean house a year soon, but I'm not going to say he's wrong for giving it one last shot when both guys are under contract through the year. Things might have been troubling before, but this year it exploded. Can't unring the bell now.

Two rookies in new roles apparently needed more guidance or they (Grigson really) ignored his guidance/instruction which is insubordination.  Grigson and Pagano need coaching just like anyone else.  I find it hard to believe they blew off Irsay's guidance, I'm more inclined to believe Irsay wasn't as involved as he needed to be.  Is this supposition on my part...of course, but the evidence is the body of work this front office has presented to us.  Someone has to be accountable and it starts at the top not the bottom.

 

[Jdubu]

15 minutes ago, bleevit said:

Well, apparently the slightly more than average knowledge of these Forum posters recognize that Grigson is the greater problem.  The coaches all have exhibited success at this and other jobs. Grigson has exhibited poor results in both the draft and free agency. If I were in Irsay's shoes, I'd be a little upset about how my money had been spent. When you get Bjorn, Trent, and apparently brittle wideout with your first round picks, you're in trouble regardless of the coach. Having watched years and years of pre-Manning failures, I would hate to go back to a situation where we continue with this GM. Most people believe teams are made from the inside out with solid fronts on both sides of the ball. Constantly trying to "coach up" mediocre players and having no line depth is getting old.

Bad drafts? Of 4 years, what is the % of bad draft picks has he had? I will give you Werner doesn't look good but if you want to equal that out, compare Werner to a Rob Morris pick during the Polian era. Bad picks happen. Did he miss on the TRich trade? Yes and badly but again, Corey Simon free agent deal come to mind? The way Grigs has structured deals was very team friendly to cut if they didn't work out unlike some of the deals Polian put together on contracts. 

 

Miss for building an oline, what pieces did Polian put together his last 5 years over the colts and what pieces did he let go? He let a few good guys leave and signed underwhelming guys to overpriced contracts. This talk about Grigs being awful is just misguided blame on the guy who is getting beat up in print and we don't even know how much of it is true or not yet.

 

my money stays with Grigs and let's Pags go. His game plans and his in game decisions have just been meh. Great man but not a coach that makes you say we need to retain him to grow. 

[peytonmanning18]

12 hours ago, DougDew said:

I see a lot of * in descriptions of them.  Just wondering why their failures effect people so strongly.  Watching the manifestations of them doing their jobs is just a way to spend a Sunday afternoon.  It beats bowling.

 

Mid you're saying that people should stop letting what a football team does affect their daily lives then yes I agree with you.

[TD]

1 hour ago, IndyD4U said:

I attended Pat McAfee's NYE event in Indy. Besides busting my gut from laughing so hard and ringing in the New Year with Pat,  Hasselbeck, Herron, and Whalen, to name a few, McAfee took several "shots" an Grigson. Basically putting it out there that he's an * and that the players aren't real fond of him either. He kept saying how much he and his team mates love Pagano and would do anything for him. I guess Grigs wanted to fine Pat within the Organization for his Twitter exchange he had last week, but Pagano came to his aid. 

 

Interesting little tidbit, for what it's worth 

Go McAfee!   I've not heard a single argument that justifies keeping Grigson on the payroll.  If you get past his bluster and arrogance there is nothing left but his bad decision making to endear him to fans.

[ColtRider]

5 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Where's there's smoke there's fire. Some if not all has to be true. Grigson needs to go NOW! I'm not 100% against Pagano. I think he got a raw deal. Do I think we can do better? Yes. It's just not easy to pinpoint with the deck stacked against you.

 

Just as several have posted, if Grigson is the common denominator of this mess, then yes he must exit this organization as quickly as possible. No franchise stands a chance where "meddling" is concerned, especially at the GM position. As for others? That's the Owner's call. Irsay, at least in my mind, knows where the chess pieces stand. He can either go down with the King or move to checkmate the cancerous growths. It's all on him. I just hope & pray he's 12 moves ahead on the board. 

[jlid]

Well to satisfy the point of the thread, if I had to keep one, I guess I'd keep Pagano.

 

However, unless one of the two has long term job security, we really handcuff ourselves with top candidates if we don't clean house.  A new GM is always gonna want to pick his own coach, so if we take that ability away, the top guys (who for some unknown reason turn down opportunities every year anyway) probably balk.

 

If we go the other way, Grigson's now very public meddling aside, the same issue comes up.  GM on a short leash, possibly fired after one year of the new coach's reign, new GM comes in and wants his own guy.  You'd have to guarantee the new coach a lot of input into the next GM for that to work, and without that, again the top candidates probably balk.