Andrew Luck partial shoulder subluxation (Merged)

[ColtRider]

Drafting O linemen in any / all rounds is a crap shoot.  I'll name some names folks here wanted badly, but knew would never fall to us-

 

Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Jake Mathhews (all huge disappointments early in career)

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1787958-breaking-down-the-struggles-of-top-picks-luke-joeckel-and-eric-fisher

 

http://cover32.com/falcons/2014/12/18/atlanta-falcons-ol-jake-matthews-named-one-of-10-most-disappointing-rookies-of-2014/

 

John Elway gets Ty Sambrailo to develop, then Ryan Clady gets an ACL  Ty Sambrailo is not NFL caliber left tackle ready.  A large amount of teams are hurting on O line.  In fact, some teams are converting D linemen to O linemen (Seahawks for one)-

 

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/seahawks/2015/05/11/tom-cables-conversion-of-defensive-tackles-into-offensive-linemen-continues/

 

And many teams struggle to find decent O line, even when taking them in round 1 -

 

http://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2015/5/1/8528069/2015-nfl-draft-results-1st-round-offensive-linemen-have-not-worked

 

I feel the O linemen problem stems from the use of the spread in college, and lack of 'pads on' time at NFL practice due to CBA rules.  The kids coming in don't have proper technique, and not enough reps in pads to learn it in the NFL.  More specifically, teams can have 11 padded practices during the first 11 weeks of the season, with two padded practices permitted in a given week only once.  Then, for the final six weeks of the season, a total of three padded practices may be conducted.

 

This is not conducive to building a well taught and cohesive O line, especially with guys coming in for college that need it most.

 

And now we have Luck nicked, and many fans with a fire them all mentality.  Bill Parcels had this right-

 

“No matter how much you’ve won, no matter how many games, no matter how many championships, no matter how many Super Bowls, you’re not winning now, so you stink.”

 

and first round draft picks are no guarantee either... any position-

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-04-22/nfl-draft-2012-first-round-disappointments

 

Doing what Grigson, and Polian before him, does / did is not easy.  No matter how much you think it may be.

This just wreaks of reality. So true. To be honest, the best offensive line I've ever witnessed was the '92-'95 Dallas Cowboys. Looked like 5 cement trucks lined up next to each other. Big, fast, and blew opposing players off the lines with authority. Those guys should've have worn the police badges that say, "Sworn to Protect & Serve"! Nothing could be so definitive. The holes they created for Smith were larger than the Grand Canyon at times. It was a thing of beauty for OCs & OLCs.

[crazycolt1]

nor Andrew Luck himself.  He would neither confirm or deny about the shoulder separation reports.  Said he's been told many things and won't discuss nor lend any credence to any of it...   Hmmmmm.....

There are laws that protect anyone from discussing an injury including football players. In the NFL all that can be told is doubtful, probable, out and questionable. I am sure you know this but it seems the media is so worried about breaking a story they wont quit asking. The media just hopes that someone will slip up and talk about something that by law cant.

[RockThatBlue]

but for what why take the risk? So we can try and win the division just to get owned by the real teams in the AFC

If the doctors give Luck the green light to play, then there's no risk (besides the normal risk of anybody getting injured)

[RockThatBlue]

I didn't realize how many doctors there are on this forum.

[ricker182]

I'm amazed at all the people on here that think it's okay to throw away an NFL game when every game is so crucial.

If Andrew is healthy enough to play to his potential he definitely should play. You cannot hold someone out because he might get hurt.

Why play him at all then? He could get hurt on any play against any team.

[Robert Johnson]

Why would they let Josh Johnson walk if they didn't think Luck was ready to play, Seems to me if they were comfortable bringing Taney up off the practice squad to back up Hasselback,they would have done that against the Jaguars.Just my opinion,but i think they plan on him playing.

[Defjamz26]

False.

Usually they are. It's rare for them to report completely false information. It's the NFL's official network so reporting false injury info would look really silly of them.

Not saying they're always the first to report stuff but they certainly "get the confirmation " and fact check before they report it. Maybe I misspoke though. They're usually never wrong when it comes to injury reports.

[csmopar]

For as much as everybody is trying to blame someone for something and fire them as soon as possible, I think there is a greater than 50% chance that the coaching staff changes some things on offense, resulting in the chains moving more often, and Luck taking fewer hits. I'm sure we'll all be watching for changes.

Kind of sad it took luck getting hurt to do it.... but I'll believe it when I see them actually change it up in the games

[Restored]

Drafting players in the third and fourth round isn't rolling the dice. It's part of building a team. Tons of third and fourth round players around the league making huge contributions.

 

Not only that, those players were picked to be a part of the future of the team, not to solidify the line right away. They are both in their third year, and they can either play or they can't. But when they were picked, there were starters in place ahead of them.

 

As of right now, Thornton and Holmes are performing adequately.

 

In this specific situation, Grigson drafted these 2 linemen with the expectations that they would eventually fill holes on the offensive line and start. And the fact is, both of these players had to see action a lot earlier than just their 3rd year and you can't excuse it because they've been forced to play. You don't waste a 3rd round pick expecting to get a backup player.

 

I would disagree on them performing adequately. Thornton has been one of the most penalized linemen this season. I'll give you Holmes.

 

Really? So this change you think is going to take effect this season? And because it wont Grigson needs to be fired? That is the jest of what you have been saying.

 

It's fairly obvious the Colts can't protect Luck long enough on the plays that take more time to develop. So yes, the offense needs to change at this point to give Luck quicker passing plays so that the line isn't forced to protect so long. But that solution is merely temporary so that the team can try to have success this season. The root problem is that the offensive line is clearly just as bad as it was in 2012 when Grigson took over and that's why he needs to be let go among other issues.

 

Drafting O linemen in any / all rounds is a crap shoot.  I'll name some names folks here wanted badly, but knew would never fall to us-

 

Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Jake Mathhews (all huge disappointments early in career)

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1787958-breaking-down-the-struggles-of-top-picks-luke-joeckel-and-eric-fisher

 

http://cover32.com/falcons/2014/12/18/atlanta-falcons-ol-jake-matthews-named-one-of-10-most-disappointing-rookies-of-2014/

 

John Elway gets Ty Sambrailo to develop, then Ryan Clady gets an ACL  Ty Sambrailo is not NFL caliber left tackle ready.  But is forced into the role. A large amount of teams are hurting on O line.  In fact, some teams are converting D linemen to O linemen (Seahawks for one)-

 

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/seahawks/2015/05/11/tom-cables-conversion-of-defensive-tackles-into-offensive-linemen-continues/

 

And many teams struggle to find decent O line, even when taking them in round 1 -

 

http://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2015/5/1/8528069/2015-nfl-draft-results-1st-round-offensive-linemen-have-not-worked

 

I feel the O linemen problem stems from the use of the spread in college, and lack of 'pads on' time at NFL practice due to CBA rules.  The kids coming in don't have proper technique, and not enough reps in pads to learn it in the NFL.  More specifically, teams can have 11 padded practices during the first 11 weeks of the season, with two padded practices permitted in a given week only once.  Then, for the final six weeks of the season, a total of three padded practices may be conducted.

 

This is not conducive to building a well taught and cohesive O line, especially with guys coming in from a spread offense in college that need it most.

 

And now we have Luck nicked, and many fans with a fire them all mentality.  Bill Parcels had this right-

 

“No matter how much you’ve won, no matter how many games, no matter how many championships, no matter how many Super Bowls, you’re not winning now, so you stink.”

 

and first round draft picks are no guarantee either... any position-

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-04-22/nfl-draft-2012-first-round-disappointments

 

Doing what Grigson, and Polian before him, does / did is not easy.  No matter how much you think it may be.

 

Nothing is guaranteed but your chances are significantly better player than any other round in terms of getting a better player. There is a reason why the hall of fame has significantly more players that were drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds compared to others:

 

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/general/draft/round.aspx#1

 

I agree that the issue partially has to do with what is happening at the collegiate level but it doesn't mean that there aren't good players available. And certainly not ones that have been the level that Grigson has drafted. And again I'll say that Grigson's best offensive linemen that he's drafted came in the 2nd round.

[Restored]

Explain each situation where Luck "beat the blitz" last year...and in year's past. Explain them. PFF assigned a number 16.2 to Luck. What does that mean? We do know it includes TDs. How often did the Colts convert 3rd and 8 into a first down against the blitz relative to other starting QBs.

You contend that Grigs didn't address the line well enough by citing how few first round draft choices he spent. He doesn't have to use a first round pick on the oline..and would actually be stupid to do so...because LT is the ONLY...yes ONLY... oline position worthy of a 1st round pick.

IOW, being a reasonable GM, he did not have the opportunity to use a first round pick on the oline because the player that a GM would use the pick on was already here.

 

At this point, you are grasping at straws to try and refute statistics that clearly undermine your opinion of Luck's ability to beat the blitz.

 

Again, that is your opinion on that a LT is the only position worthy of a first round pick. I've also included the 2nd round as well into that. Judging by the lone offensive linemen Grigson has taken in the 2nd round, he's turned out to be pretty decent for the Colts despite him having to make a position change as well (Mewhort).

 

Over the course of this conversation, you've gone from saying that you only take BPA to only taking certain position on the offensive line to saying that Dorsett was a necessity pick.

[DougDew]

Kind of sad it took luck getting hurt to do it.... but I'll believe it when I see them actually change it up in the games

Agreed. An it depends on Luck too. That's why the report came out of the coaches wanting him to change his style of play...because he is responsible for the hits too. Others who watch tape more than me say that there are check down options at times that he seldom chooses.

Calling fewer plays that have several receivers going vertical would be one way to force Luck to hit the short pass.

[DougDew]

At this point, you are grasping at straws to try and refute statistics that clearly undermine your opinion of Luck's ability to beat the blitz.

 

Again, that is your opinion on that a LT is the only position worthy of a first round pick. I've also included the 2nd round as well into that. Judging by the lone offensive linemen Grigson has taken in the 2nd round, he's turned out to be pretty decent for the Colts despite him having to make a position change as well (Mewhort).

 

Over the course of this conversation, you've gone from saying that you only take BPA to only taking certain position on the offensive line to saying that Dorsett was a necessity pick.

You are holding statistics as being equal to facts. They are not. Facts create stats...not the other way around. If you know the facts, you don't need the stats.

What does 16.2 mean, and what circumstance caused it to be .2 more than the next QB, at 16.0? Did Reggie make a circus catch?

I said this the last two spring draft seasons and I will say it again. Positions are slotted in terms of value, unless there is a superior player at an "off" position. The positions worthy of 1st round picks are...QB, WR, LT, OLB/DE (pass rusher), CB, disruptive DT, and possibly a TE. That's it. A team should not draft a RT, C, G, RB, TE, S, ILB or one dimensional fatty DTs, in the first round....again...unless one of those players are a superior talent.

Grigs has had NO OPPORTUNITY to draft an Olineman in the 1st round...because the LT IS THE ONLY OL POSITION WORTHY of a 1st round pick, and our's was already here. So its impossible to criticize him for not using a first round pick on an olineman in the last 4 years. Instead, Grigs drafted olineman EXACTLY in the rounds he should have.

The RT..Mewhort (who will be the RT eventuall) in the 2nd. A G....Thornton, in the 3rd, and a C Holmes, in the 4th.

Not only did he address the line appropriately in the draft, he didn't waste the cap on overpriced aged Guards like Levitre and Grubbs, etc.

My original quote to you was about what draft picks Grigs devoted to the draft and why.

I'm not going to continue repeating the same thing. If you don't understand, fine, but I'm done explaining how the NFL draft works and the VALUE that GMs assign to positions.

[Defjamz26]

In this specific situation, Grigson drafted these 2 linemen with the expectations that they would eventually fill holes on the offensive line and start. And the fact is, both of these players had to see action a lot earlier than just their 3rd year and you can't excuse it because they've been forced to play. You don't waste a 3rd round pick expecting to get a backup player.

I would disagree on them performing adequately. Thornton has been one of the most penalized linemen this season. I'll give you Holmes.

It's fairly obvious the Colts can't protect Luck long enough on the plays that take more time to develop. So yes, the offense needs to change at this point to give Luck quicker passing plays so that the line isn't forced to protect so long. But that solution is merely temporary so that the team can try to have success this season. The root problem is that the offensive line is clearly just as bad as it was in 2012 when Grigson took over and that's why he needs to be let go among other issues.

Nothing is guaranteed but your chances are significantly better player than any other round in terms of getting a better player. There is a reason why the hall of fame has significantly more players that were drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds compared to others:

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/general/draft/round.aspx#1

I agree that the issue partially has to do with what is happening at the collegiate level but it doesn't mean that there aren't good players available. And certainly not ones that have been the level that Grigson has drafted. And again I'll say that Grigson's best offensive linemen that he's drafted came in the 2nd round.

Very well informed post. And I agree with all your points. I think the apologist attitude is exactly what's wrong with the organization. Making excuses but never addressing the core problem.

Could Luck release the ball sooner? Yeah. Could the offense change? Yeah. But the core problem is the lack of talent on the line. Telling the Colts to work around a sub par crowd is like telling a chef to cook without pots and pans.

And like Schlereth said, there is a shortage of good lineman in the league. But too many people ate trying to hang the faults with the line on that one tidbit. It's not okay to settle for mediocrity because it's common.

[DougDew]

Very well informed post. And I agree with all your points. I think the apologist attitude is exactly what's wrong with the organization. Making excuses but never addressing the core problem.

Could Luck release the ball sooner? Yeah. Could the offense change? Yeah. But the core problem is the lack of talent on the line. Telling the Colts to work around a sub par crowd is like telling a chef to cook without pots and pans.

And like Schlereth said, there is a shortage of good lineman in the league. But too many people ate trying to hang the faults with the line on that one tidbit. It's not okay to settle for mediocrity because it's common.

The core problem is the long developing plays. Either called by the OC to begin with or the QB choosing to wait for them...too many times.

If you believe otherwise, you're badly informed.

[krunk]

You can imply perceived value all you want but there is a reason why Grigson's best offensive lineman came in the first two rounds of the draft with Mewhort. Usually, better players come in earlier rounds of the draft. Grigson could've easily spent his first rounder this year on either a guard or tackle that would be way more suited to the team's needs instead of drafting a WR.

You get what you pay for most of the time and Grigson rolled the dice in hoping that a 3rd and 4th round pick would solidify the offensive line. It clearly didn't work.

I want him gone because he's clearly failed to FIX a problem that's been the most glaring on this team since he's taken over it. How many times have we heard Grigson say "it starts in the trenches"? Only to be let down each and every season when Luck takes the most hits and sacks. It's time for a change.

Grigson has already spent 5 draft picks on lineman. 3 of which were high to mid round picks. What makes you think the problem is going to magically be fixed if he spends a first rounder? There are first round lineman from this years draft who are and will be busts. If the lineman you are so desperate to have does much of nothing in his first year I suppose you will fall back on the excuse that Grigson has a bad eye for talent? He should have drafted such and such in the first round instead of the other guy he picked in the first. Somebody else said we should have selected Malcolm Brown in the first round for the defense. He is currently being outplayed by our 3rd and 4th founders. Plenty of over valued players in the higher rounds.

[Superman]

In this specific situation, Grigson drafted these 2 linemen with the expectations that they would eventually fill holes on the offensive line and start. And the fact is, both of these players had to see action a lot earlier than just their 3rd year and you can't excuse it because they've been forced to play. You don't waste a 3rd round pick expecting to get a backup player.

 

I would disagree on them performing adequately. Thornton has been one of the most penalized linemen this season. I'll give you Holmes.

 

These two linemen are now starting, so what's the problem at this point?

 

Holmes played 11 snaps his rookie year. He was supposed to start all last year, but got hurt, and didn't get back on the field until late in the season. He didn't see a lot of action before then, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

 

Thornton did play well to start his rookie season, then tapered off. But again, he wasn't intended to start in Year 1. That doesn't make him a wasted pick. Every draft pick doesn't start or even play right away, and we all know that. You're trying to hold these two players to a ridiculous standard.

 

Thornton had a shaky first game, but half of his penalties were bogus. And on the other 50 snaps, he graded out positively. He was also good against the Jags. He's actually been better than Holmes overall in the last two games.

 

I know the inclination around here is to write off players quickly, but if we stay away from the extremes, we have plenty of reason to be optimistic about Thornton and Holmes. If they fall off this season, that changes, but as of right now, they are young players who were drafted to eventually play this role. Everything hasn't been all rosy with them, but like I said originally, drafting third and fourth rounders isn't rolling the dice, especially when they weren't expected to start right away. It's team building.

 

We might as well just give away our mid round picks if they're considered rolling the dice.

[Superman]

Grigson has already spent 5 draft picks on lineman. 3 of which were high to mid round picks. What makes you think the problem is going to magically be fixed if he spends a first rounder? There are first round lineman from this years draft who are and will be busts. If the lineman you are so desperate to have does much of nothing in his first year I suppose you will fall back on the excuse that Grigson has a bad eye for talent? He should have drafted such and such in the first round instead of the other guy he picked in the first. Somebody else said we should have selected Malcolm Brown in the first round for the defense. He is currently being outplayed by our 3rd and 4th founders. Plenty of over valued players in the higher rounds.

 

Especially if you're expecting them to start and play well right away.

 

If the collective here had its way, we would have drafted Marcus Martin last year. And so far, he's been bad.

[Superman]

Very well informed post. And I agree with all your points. I think the apologist attitude is exactly what's wrong with the organization. Making excuses but never addressing the core problem.

Could Luck release the ball sooner? Yeah. Could the offense change? Yeah. But the core problem is the lack of talent on the line. Telling the Colts to work around a sub par crowd is like telling a chef to cook without pots and pans.

And like Schlereth said, there is a shortage of good lineman in the league. But too many people ate trying to hang the faults with the line on that one tidbit. It's not okay to settle for mediocrity because it's common.

 

Nonsense.

 

It's not one or the other; it's both. The line needs to be better, but it's simply bad coaching to ask your personnel to do something that you know they struggle with, especially when there's a clear alternative. It's not strange or radical to shorten up your passing concepts or use play action when your OL is giving up pressure. It's actually what most of the efficient passing teams in the league have done for several years.

 

I've said several times, be critical of Grigson all you want. But be reasonable. 

[NewColtsFan]

Positions are slotted in terms of value, unless there is a superior player at an "off" position. The positions worthy of 1st round picks are...QB, WR, LT, OLB/DE (pass rusher), CB, disruptive DT, and possibly a TE. That's it. A team should not draft a RT, C, G, RB, TE, S, ILB or one dimensional fatty DTs, in the first round....again...unless one of those players are a superior talent.

Grigs has had NO OPPORTUNITY to draft an Olineman in the 1st round...because the LT IS THE ONLY OL POSITION WORTHY of a 1st round pick, and our's was already here. So its impossible to criticize him for not using a first round pick on an olineman in the last 4 years. Instead, Grigs drafted olineman EXACTLY in the rounds he should have.

 

 

Not looking for a fight here....

 

There are often C and RT and DT and RB and TE and S and even ILB worthy of being a 1st round pick.    

 

Not every draft,  but every few years.

 

There are too many players to name who fall into the category you listed above as players who should not be drafted in the first round "unless one of those players is a super talent."

 

Well...   that line,  the "super talent" line is all in the eyes of the beholder.     No one thought the Wisconsin center (Travis ?) that Dallas took in the first round was a super talent.    In fact most thought he was a 2nd or 3rd rounder.    Dallas gets the last laugh.

 

The draft is completely unpredictable.   There are exceptions to every rule.    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

 

Roughly only 1/3 of first round picks prove their worth.   1/3 are pretty good, but perhaps not worthy of being a 1st round pick.

And the other 3rd are busts.      Picking talent is much harder than it looks.

[southwest1]

 

 

*Disclaimer: There is no direct relationship between a quarterback getting injured and the protection that his offensive line does or does not provide.

I wouldn't that there's no correlation between a good line & a QB's health. That's a river SW1 just can't leap. The quality & alignment of your line does indeed matter. I just liked it because anything with Jeff in it is automatically awesome! 

 

That disclaimer is false.

 

85% of the time I'd agree with that statement, but sometimes weird injuries just happen regardless of a QB's protection up front. 

I have subluxed both of my shoulders many times, and dislocated both quite a few times. Once it's starts coming out, the joint loosens and it comes out easier next time.

 

I have had three shoulder operations (two on my left, one on my right) due to this.

 

If this turns into a problem for Luck, no amount of weights or shoulder exercises will fix it... he will need an op. The op involves putting little steel anchors around the rotator cuff to stabilise the shoulder. If he has an op, his shoulder will never have the same range of movement again.

 

What I am saying is... everyone should be reasonably worried about this.

"Reasonably worried?" I have no idea how to even interpret that statement. The NFL is all about age, surgeries, hits, recovery, & adjustments. 

 

How thoughtful and considerate of you

Yeah, QuizBoy is a darn nice guy. Not all rivals are royal thorns in the backside you know. He's 1 of the good ones. I hope you find your franchise QB soon man. Houston fans have been waiting long enough IMO. 

[NewEra]

For as much as everybody is trying to blame someone for something and fire them as soon as possible, I think there is a greater than 50% chance that the coaching staff changes some things on offense, resulting in the chains moving more often, and Luck taking fewer hits. I'm sure we'll all be watching for changes.

I agree, it's just painful to watch your coaching staff and or Luck struggle to get what is couch gm's/coaches know...lol. Couch coaches

[ColtsBlueFL]

Thank god if true. Maybe it really is just a really bad bruise. We can live with that. Now let's get a good O-line before something does become a problem 

 

The Colts are seemingly hiding something, notably as they aren't telling what Andrew has, just trying to deflect and deny reports.  Dr. James Andrews had reviewed Drew Brees MRI's and confirmed a 'bruised rotator cuff'.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13717185/dr-james-andrews-confirms-bruised-rotator-cuff-new-orleans-saints-quarterback-drew-brees

 

I do not  believe Andrew's injury is the same one as Drew Brees had.  I also maintain there was likely a Type I AC Joint, and that if so, he'll get a corticosteroid  + anesthetic injection and be good to go Thursday.  If misses again, you'll know there is something deeper involved.  And why are the Colts so mum when the Saints were quite open concerning each teams respective franchise QB's shoulder injury and tests? Will the truth ever be revealed?  In time, I bet it does leak out.

[southwest1]

Grigson has already spent 5 draft picks on lineman. 3 of which were high to mid round picks. What makes you think the problem is going to magically be fixed if he spends a first rounder? There are first round lineman from this years draft who are and will be busts. If the lineman you are so desperate to have does much of nothing in his first year I suppose you will fall back on the excuse that Grigson has a bad eye for talent? He should have drafted such and such in the first round instead of the other guy he picked in the first. Somebody else said we should have selected Malcolm Brown in the first round for the defense. He is currently being outplayed by our 3rd and 4th founders. Plenty of over valued players in the higher rounds.

You make a great point krunk. Outside say the first 10-15 picks in the draft the order really means next to nothing & even high ranking picks can not pan out like QB Blaine Gabbert picked in 2011 at #10 by Jacksonville & he's a backup in 49ers Country right now. It's all about the coaching staff a player gets, the scheme that organization plays, & whether or not the playbook matches a given players skill set. 

 

Point taken where you take linemen is irrelevant. All that matters is how quickly they master a system & digest coaching. Thanks for the reminder. I've been guilty of complaining where INDY drafts linemen too mostly because I don't want to see Luck out with a longterm injury. I'm not the smartest cat on here, but I know who to listen to & you certainly fit that bill krunk among several others as well. 

[Defjamz26]

Nonsense.

It's not one or the other; it's both. The line needs to be better, but it's simply bad coaching to ask your personnel to do something that you know they struggle with, especially when there's a clear alternative. It's not strange or radical to shorten up your passing concepts or use play action when your OL is giving up pressure. It's actually what most of the efficient passing teams in the league have done for several years.

I've said several times, be critical of Grigson all you want. But be reasonable.

That's basically what I said though. Luck and play calling are also to blame, but that's not the core of the problem. To me the core problem is the talent on the OL, which is probably where we disagree.

There are some people trying to shoulder the entire blame on Luck by saying things like "Well most teams have bad O-lines" or "If he got rid of the ball faster, he wouldn't get hit as much".

I just think that in any issue there's a core problem and then outlying issues that aren't at the core but still contribute.

[Superman]

That's basically what I said though. Luck and play calling are also to blame, but that's not the core of the problem. To me the core problem is the talent on the OL, which is probably where we disagree.

There are some people trying to shoulder the entire blame on Luck by saying things like "Well most teams have bad O-lines" or "If he got rid of the ball faster, he wouldn't get hit as much".

I just think that in any issue there's a core problem and then outlying issues that aren't at the core but still contribute.

 

No matter what kind of line you have, the way the games have been called and the way Luck has played, there would be a lot of pressure either way. Yes, the underlying issue can be placed at the feet of the personnel people (namely, Grigson), but it's silly to run what we tried to run to begin the season. From 19 straight passes against the Bills, to missing outlet throws, no play action, etc., the offense has just been stuck in a rut.

 

To me, that's the bigger issue, because that's fixable right now, and they just haven't fixed it (pending more than just MH's game against the Jags). Like I said, bad coaching, and bad execution from the best player on the field.

 

Even when the OL is more talented or is playing better, we should be taking pressure off the line, not trying to stretch the pass protection to the absolute max. 

 

Also, the OL is probably at optimal levels with the lineup we're using now, rather than the lineup we started with. Let's see how that goes moving forward, but the OL overall probably isn't as bad as it was looking, particularly against the Jets. 

[Warhorse]

Drafting O linemen in any / all rounds is a crap shoot.  I'll name some names folks here wanted badly, but knew would never fall to us-

 

Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Jake Mathhews (all huge disappointments early in career)

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1787958-breaking-down-the-struggles-of-top-picks-luke-joeckel-and-eric-fisher

 

http://cover32.com/falcons/2014/12/18/atlanta-falcons-ol-jake-matthews-named-one-of-10-most-disappointing-rookies-of-2014/

 

John Elway gets Ty Sambrailo to develop, then Ryan Clady gets an ACL  Ty Sambrailo is not NFL caliber left tackle ready.  But is forced into the role. A large amount of teams are hurting on O line.  In fact, some teams are converting D linemen to O linemen (Seahawks for one)-

 

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/seahawks/2015/05/11/tom-cables-conversion-of-defensive-tackles-into-offensive-linemen-continues/

 

And many teams struggle to find decent O line, even when taking them in round 1 -

 

http://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2015/5/1/8528069/2015-nfl-draft-results-1st-round-offensive-linemen-have-not-worked

 

I feel the O linemen problem stems from the use of the spread in college, and lack of 'pads on' time at NFL practice due to CBA rules.  The kids coming in don't have proper technique, and not enough reps in pads to learn it in the NFL.  More specifically, teams can have 11 padded practices during the first 11 weeks of the season, with two padded practices permitted in a given week only once.  Then, for the final six weeks of the season, a total of three padded practices may be conducted.

 

This is not conducive to building a well taught and cohesive O line, especially with guys coming in from a spread offense in college that need it most.

 

And now we have Luck nicked, and many fans with a fire them all mentality.  Bill Parcels had this right-

 

“No matter how much you’ve won, no matter how many games, no matter how many championships, no matter how many Super Bowls, you’re not winning now, so you stink.”

 

and first round draft picks are no guarantee either... any position-

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-04-22/nfl-draft-2012-first-round-disappointments

 

Doing what Grigson, and Polian before him, does / did is not easy.  No matter how much you think it may be.

Truth...researched...well organized. Nice work. Fans who want to blame, might want to redirect their blame to the general...rather than the specific.

[JPFolks]

Drafting O linemen in any / all rounds is a crap shoot.  I'll name some names folks here wanted badly, but knew would never fall to us-

 

Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Jake Mathhews (all huge disappointments early in career)

 

I am not sure I recall a big outcry to draft any of those 3.  So your premise starts off pretty weak.   I thought the Eric Fisher pick, for example, was terrible the day they did it.  I was shocked they would blow that pick on a guy so unproved.  Same with Joekel.  The Matthews pick seemed a reach but at least there was a family history which is surprisingly helpful, though certainly no guarantee.  I certainly never thought the Colts should pick any of them even if they'd been available when we picked. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

I am not sure I recall a big outcry to draft any of those 3.  So your premise starts off pretty weak.   I thought the Eric Fisher pick, for example, was terrible the day they did it.  I was shocked they would blow that pick on a guy so unproved.  Same with Joekel.  The Matthews pick seemed a reach but at least there was a family history which is surprisingly helpful, though certainly no guarantee.  I certainly never thought the Colts should pick any of them even if they'd been available when we picked. 

 

The point is, even top rated O linemen can fail to deliver, especially right away. 

 

Next point is there wasn't clamoring for them because it was well known they would bee off the board well before we were close to making a pick.

 

Now, tell me this board would not have imploded if any of those 3 fell to us in a draft, and The Colts passed on drafting them...

 

For a real debate, people should talk about who was truly available on the  o line at our pick position and we can discuss their performance vs the draft slot.

 

It's easy to complain... much harder to offer solutions.

[Restored]

You are holding statistics as being equal to facts. They are not. Facts create stats...not the other way around. If you know the facts, you don't need the stats.

What does 16.2 mean, and what circumstance caused it to be .2 more than the next QB, at 16.0? Did Reggie make a circus catch?

I said this the last two spring draft seasons and I will say it again. Positions are slotted in terms of value, unless there is a superior player at an "off" position. The positions worthy of 1st round picks are...QB, WR, LT, OLB/DE (pass rusher), CB, disruptive DT, and possibly a TE. That's it. A team should not draft a RT, C, G, RB, TE, S, ILB or one dimensional fatty DTs, in the first round....again...unless one of those players are a superior talent.

Grigs has had NO OPPORTUNITY to draft an Olineman in the 1st round...because the LT IS THE ONLY OL POSITION WORTHY of a 1st round pick, and our's was already here. So its impossible to criticize him for not using a first round pick on an olineman in the last 4 years. Instead, Grigs drafted olineman EXACTLY in the rounds he should have.

The RT..Mewhort (who will be the RT eventuall) in the 2nd. A G....Thornton, in the 3rd, and a C Holmes, in the 4th.

Not only did he address the line appropriately in the draft, he didn't waste the cap on overpriced aged Guards like Levitre and Grubbs, etc.

My original quote to you was about what draft picks Grigs devoted to the draft and why.

I'm not going to continue repeating the same thing. If you don't understand, fine, but I'm done explaining how the NFL draft works and the VALUE that GMs assign to positions.

Again, I'm not going to give you a 101 on how PFF grades it's quarterbacks. If you want to lend credit to Reggie for every play that Luck made the right read and got the ball out to a receiver with defenders closing in, then that's on you.

 

Your logic behind what position constitutes a 1st round pick is flawed. You've gone from BPA to only BPA but with conditions. You can't tell me he hasn't "had the opportunity" when he's clearly had 3 1st round and 3 2nd round picks now. Now obviously he traded one of each away and the results have been mixed but you can't say he didn't have the opportunity.

 

I'd love to see where you got this insider GM information on what values they place on players.

 

Grigson has already spent 5 draft picks on lineman. 3 of which were high to mid round picks. What makes you think the problem is going to magically be fixed if he spends a first rounder? There are first round lineman from this years draft who are and will be busts. If the lineman you are so desperate to have does much of nothing in his first year I suppose you will fall back on the excuse that Grigson has a bad eye for talent? He should have drafted such and such in the first round instead of the other guy he picked in the first. Somebody else said we should have selected Malcolm Brown in the first round for the defense. He is currently being outplayed by our 3rd and 4th founders. Plenty of over valued players in the higher rounds.

Boy are you taking the ball and running with it. My point has been that Grigson has only spent 1 1st-2nd round pick on an offensive linemen and that player he picked has turned out to be his best in Jack Mewhort. Could he have selected one in the first round and it be a bust? Sure. But as I've stated before, the chances of getting a better player are increased in the first and second rounds of a draft. There's a reason why the Hall of Fame features many more 1st and 2nd round picks than any other draft round. What has Ulrick John so far? or Denzell Goode?

 

These two linemen are now starting, so what's the problem at this point?

 

Holmes played 11 snaps his rookie year. He was supposed to start all last year, but got hurt, and didn't get back on the field until late in the season. He didn't see a lot of action before then, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

 

Thornton did play well to start his rookie season, then tapered off. But again, he wasn't intended to start in Year 1. That doesn't make him a wasted pick. Every draft pick doesn't start or even play right away, and we all know that. You're trying to hold these two players to a ridiculous standard.

 

Thornton had a shaky first game, but half of his penalties were bogus. And on the other 50 snaps, he graded out positively. He was also good against the Jags. He's actually been better than Holmes overall in the last two games.

 

I know the inclination around here is to write off players quickly, but if we stay away from the extremes, we have plenty of reason to be optimistic about Thornton and Holmes. If they fall off this season, that changes, but as of right now, they are young players who were drafted to eventually play this role. Everything hasn't been all rosy with them, but like I said originally, drafting third and fourth rounders isn't rolling the dice, especially when they weren't expected to start right away. It's team building.

 

We might as well just give away our mid round picks if they're considered rolling the dice.

 

I was getting the inclination that you were excusing the play of these players given that they had to start earlier than they were projected to.

 

If you watched the last game against the Jags, the offensive line was consistently getting pushed back into the backfield on running plays. Thornton and Holmes have both played horribly at times and them having to start earlier than expected isn't excusable. That's why your GM builds depth on the offensive line so that when players go down or end up getting released, you don't get stuck with the product that we are watching every Sunday.

[Defjamz26]

No matter what kind of line you have, the way the games have been called and the way Luck has played, there would be a lot of pressure either way. Yes, the underlying issue can be placed at the feet of the personnel people (namely, Grigson), but it's silly to run what we tried to run to begin the season. From 19 straight passes against the Bills, to missing outlet throws, no play action, etc., the offense has just been stuck in a rut.

To me, that's the bigger issue, because that's fixable right now, and they just haven't fixed it (pending more than just MH's game against the Jags). Like I said, bad coaching, and bad execution from the best player on the field.

Even when the OL is more talented or is playing better, we should be taking pressure off the line, not trying to stretch the pass protection to the absolute max.

Also, the OL is probably at optimal levels with the lineup we're using now, rather than the lineup we started with. Let's see how that goes moving forward, but the OL overall probably isn't as bad as it was looking, particularly against the Jets.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. The play calling/audibling has been terrible up to this point, and Pep and Luck need to change that.

But I guess I can see what you're saying now. It's not like the line is going to upgrade right now with talent. We'll have to wait until FA and the draft. The best course now is probably to work around it for the time being.

But during this off-season we need to SMARTLY invest in some offensive lineman. I say smartly because Grigson once made Cherilus the highest paid RT of all time. We have to be smart about who we sign and/or draft. That starts at RT for me though, which is another issue for another topic.

But I see your point now Superman.

[DougDew]

Again, I'm not going to give you a 101 on how PFF grades it's quarterbacks. If you want to lend credit to Reggie for every play that Luck made the right read and got the ball out to a receiver with defenders closing in, then that's on you.

 

Your logic behind what position constitutes a 1st round pick is flawed. You've gone from BPA to only BPA but with conditions. You can't tell me he hasn't "had the opportunity" when he's clearly had 3 1st round and 3 2nd round picks now. Now obviously he traded one of each away and the results have been mixed but you can't say he didn't have the opportunity.

 

I'd love to see where you got this insider GM information on what values they place on players.

I trust my judgment of Luck's play better than I do PFF's presentation of Luck's play. PFF doesn't disclose what data they collect or how they weigh it as being important relative to other data. Its judgmental. However, the article you referenced did give us some insight into what they value highly when compiling their judgmental rankings,...TDs. Luck scored highly because the Colts scored more TDs on blitzes than other teams. That's probably because he TRIES to score more TDs on blitzes than other teams do...which is everyone's point...and he plays in the AFC South....so its easier to score TDs on blitzes relative to other QBs. IOW, his ranking is higher if you use TDs scored on blitzes against weak defenses as a highly-weighted metric..instead of using conversion of first downs against playoff caliber defenses.

I prefer the latter.

I've haven't EVER said that BPA is how you draft. Otherwise, the BPA in each round might be an OT, then the team would end up with 7 OTs. GMs draft BPA within reason...within the bigger picture of roster management. I don't have to read some internet dork's compilation and analysis of how GMs drafted the past ten years to understand how it works. Some positions have higher draft value than others...and G and C are not one of them...UNLESS they are special.

Grigson has drafted correctly. Some of the talent evaluation may have been mistaken, like ALL teams have done(see other posts) but his strategy is about perfect.

He whiffed on Werner...partly because he was drafting for need and the roster had only one OLB for Irsay's 34 defense. Mathis, Freeney, and Hughes were not, and are not, OLBs. Walden was the only one...and Werner was drafted to transition away from the pass rushing specialists of Mathis, Freeney, and Hughes to a player he thought would make a more complete OLB.

A first round pick on TRich was used because Irsay wanted a power running game in the mold of the Steelers and Chargers, who often beat us in the playoffs. Their offense centered around a bell cow RB, Bettis and Tomlinson. EVERYBODY thought TRich was that kind of RB. Grigson was fulfilling the owners wishes. Gurley and Gordon were regarded as first round talent..so RBs are drafted there..depending upon the scheme of the team.

Grigson's 1st and 2nd round picks:

2012: Luck (QB)/Fleener (Seem TE). 2013: Werner (OLB)/Davis (CB). 2014: TRich (bell cow)/Mewhort (RT). 2015: Dorsett (4.27 WR)/Smith(CB). All of those positions and attributes are simply more important than G or C...especially if the G or C is nothing special. At the time, they were all good value for where they were drafted. Only Werner was a bad talent evaluation. And if you now would like to have a 3 yr vet G in place of Thornton or Reitz/Mewhort, then Allen should not have been drafted in round 3 of 2012. Pagano said that DA was drafted then because he was by far the BPA. Prolly should have went with the best Olineman.

Big name FA guard NFL contracts: 2013; Levitre 6 yrs 47 mil..Vasquez 4 yrs 24 mil...Donald Thomas (look it up). 2014; Zane Beatles (who?) 5 yrs 30 mil...Geoff Schwartz 4yrs 17 mil (subsequently restructured) Asamoah, 5yrs 23 mil. Davin Joseph...restructured a previous 7 yr 53mil contract.

Uh..yeah...good moves by Grigs to stay away from the FA guards. Probably wouldn't have TY right now...and would be stuck with an underperforming guard instead.

[Restored]

I trust my judgment of Luck's play better than I do PFF's presentation of Luck's play. PFF doesn't disclose what data they collect or how they weigh it as being important relative to other data. Its judgmental. However, the article you referenced did give us some insight into what they value highly when compiling their judgmental rankings,...TDs. Luck scored highly because the Colts scored more TDs on blitzes than other teams. That's probably because he TRIES to score more TDs on blitzes than other teams do...which is everyone's point...and he plays in the AFC South....so its easier to score TDs on blitzes relative to other QBs. IOW, his ranking is higher if you use TDs scored on blitzes against weak defenses as a highly-weighted metric..instead of using conversion of first downs against playoff caliber defenses.

I prefer the latter.

I've haven't EVER said that BPA is how you draft. Otherwise, the BPA in each round might be an OT, then the team would end up with 7 OTs. GMs draft BPA within reason...within the bigger picture of roster management. I don't have to read some internet dork's compilation and analysis of how GMs drafted the past ten years to understand how it works. Some positions have higher draft value than others...and G and C are not one of them...UNLESS they are special.

Grigson has drafted correctly. Some of the talent evaluation may have been mistaken, like ALL teams have done(see other posts) but his strategy is about perfect.

He whiffed on Werner...partly because he was drafting for need and the roster had only one OLB for Irsay's 34 defense. Mathis, Freeney, and Hughes were not, and are not, OLBs. Walden was the only one...and Werner was drafted to transition away from the pass rushing specialists of Mathis, Freeney, and Hughes to a player he thought would make a more complete OLB.

A first round pick on TRich was used because Irsay wanted a power running game in the mold of the Steelers and Chargers, who often beat us in the playoffs. Their offense centered around a bell cow RB, Bettis and Tomlinson. EVERYBODY thought TRich was that kind of RB. Grigson was fulfilling the owners wishes. Gurley and Gordon were regarded as first round talent..so RBs are drafted there..depending upon the scheme of the team.

Grigson's 1st and 2nd round picks.

2012: Luck (QB)/Fleener (Seem TE). 2013: Werner (OLB)/Davis (CB). 2014: TRich (bell cow)/Mewhort (RT). 2015: Dorsett (4.27 WR)/Smith(CB). All of those positions and attributes are simply more important than G or C...especially if the G or C is nothing special. At the time, they were all good value for where they were drafted. Only Werner was a bad talent evaluation. And if you now would like to have a 3 yr vet G in place of Thornton or Reitz/Mewhort, then Allen should not have been drafted in round 3 of 2012. Pagano said that DA was drafted then because he was by far the BPA. Prolly should have went with the best Olineman.

Big name FA guard NFL contracts: 2013; Levitre 6 yrs 47 mil..Vasquez 4 yrs 24 mil...Donald Thomas (look it up). 2014; Zane Beatles (who?) 5 yrs 30 mil...Geoff Schwartz 4yrs 17 mil (subsequently restructured) Asamoah, 5yrs 23 mil. Davin Joseph...restructured a previous 7 yr 53mil contract.

Uh..yeah...good moves by Grigs to stay away from the FA guards. Probably wouldn't have TY right now...and would be stuck with an underperforming guard instead.

 

You continue to grasp at straws. You are just inferring about what Luck "probably" is doing when beating the blitz. Are you really going to fault him for beating the blitz and hitting a receiver for a touchdown? And quite frankly, with how the Colts offensive line is, playing in the AFC South isn't a cakewalk for them. JJ Watt always has monster games against the Colts and last year, Jacksonville's front 7 ate Luck alive for a good half of that game at home. Luck's success against the blitz also came more than just the AFC South as well.

 

Again, you are making your own inferences and stating them as facts with little to no backing. Every GM has their own line of reasoning for how they draft and to make a blanket statement such as the one you made here is a logical fallacy.

 

Hughes went on to Buffalo and actually had a level of success there. And I'm pretty sure he was an OLB in doing so. Mathis had his best season statistically as an OLB. Clearly they've had success as OLB's. You can reason the Werner pick all you want but the fact remains that Grigson flat out reached and missed on him.

 

I'm pretty sure Grigon has the autonomy to make a lot of his own choices. I doubt Irsay was in his office demanding he trade a 1st round pick for Richardson like you are making it seem. Another swing and miss that you are now wanting to blame the owner, and not the GM for.

 

The Colts are already stuck with an underperforming guard and center and have already had to shuffle the offensive line because of performance barely 3 weeks into the season. Herremans is already benched. Mewhort has been forced to move back to guard again. Continue to justify mediocrity while Luck will continue to take unnecessary hits because the Colts GM hasn't built the offensive line in 4 years.

[DougDew]

Not looking for a fight here....

 

There are often C and RT and DT and RB and TE and S and even ILB worthy of being a 1st round pick.    

 

Not every draft,  but every few years.

 

There are too many players to name who fall into the category you listed above as players who should not be drafted in the first round "unless one of those players is a super talent."

 

Well...   that line,  the "super talent" line is all in the eyes of the beholder.     No one thought the Wisconsin center (Travis ?) that Dallas took in the first round was a super talent.    In fact most thought he was a 2nd or 3rd rounder.    Dallas gets the last laugh.

 

The draft is completely unpredictable.   There are exceptions to every rule.    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

 

Roughly only 1/3 of first round picks prove their worth.   1/3 are pretty good, but perhaps not worthy of being a 1st round pick.

And the other 3rd are busts.      Picking talent is much harder than it looks.

I did make the point that special talents at the "off" positions are worthy of 1st round picks. Polamalu, Bob Sanders, Ed Reed, maybe Kam Chancellor, are examples of special players at S. About one every 5 years. And special players go in the first. Yes, I agree with what you are saying.

There are a lot of smaller moving parts that fit into the big overall picture.

I think what GMs value highly is the ability of a player to beat another player when they are left one-on-one. That's why a press-man scheme needs high round CBs, whereas a Tampa 2 Zone can find a CB in the 3rd round. Interior Olineman are not left to block one-on-one as much as OTs are, they tend to combine, double team etc....whereas the OT has to deal with pass rush specialists and rushing DE's. A D coordinator will of course scheme to an Oline weaknesses and try to get one on one matchups in the interior.

But if a team switches their strategy and draft C/Gs in the 1st round and OTs in the 3rd round, I think most D coordinators would appreciate it.

Of course, you could build an Oline as quickly as 2.5 drafts (3 years actually) by using nothing but 1st and 2nds, but then your one-on-one defensive players and WR/TEs wouldn't be drafted until the 3rd. Good luck with that.

[azcolt]

Several days ago a poster on this site suggested Colts doctors told him Luck's injury was merely a bruise needing rest. These assurances seemed fishy as it makes no sense that Colts doctors would violate ethics codes and risk their fancy jobs with the Colts just to pump up the ego of a message board poster.

This morning we are once again reading about "subluxation" on the NFL.com site, mentioned as casually as today's weather forecast. So did I miss a statement from the Colts or Luck stating that he indeed has structural damage in his shoulder? No one can envision another disaster like 2011, but it seems unimaginable that the Colts would throw a guy with a partially separated shoulder on the field again this year, when he is surely going to get hit even more than he has in the past. There is blood in the water and the NFL is full of hungry sharks who would love to end his or any hurt qb's season.

[ProblChld32]

Per the article i read via ESPN yesterday he just has a sore shoulder and nothing more than that. 

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13822411/indianapolis-colts-source-denies-reports-andrew-luck-partial-subluxation-shoulder

[ColtsLegacy]

Per the article i read via ESPN yesterday he just has a sore shoulder and nothing more than that.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13822411/indianapolis-colts-source-denies-reports-andrew-luck-partial-subluxation-shoulder

I find it kind of hard to believe Luck would miss two games with just a "sore shoulder".

[pgt_rob]

I find it kind of hard to believe Luck would miss two games with just a "sore shoulder".

 

Yep. I would agree. Luck is a strong competitive NFL athlete, I'm sure they all feel sore after games, practices, and training. Has to be shoulder subluxation or worse. (Yes that is my crystal ball talking)

[ColtsFanMikeC]

Several days ago a poster on this site suggested Colts doctors told him Luck's injury was merely a bruise needing rest. These assurances seemed fishy as it makes no sense that Colts doctors would violate ethics codes and risk their fancy jobs with the Colts just to pump up the ego of a message board poster.

This morning we are once again reading about "subluxation" on the NFL.com site, mentioned as casually as today's weather forecast. So did I miss a statement from the Colts or Luck stating that he indeed has structural damage in his shoulder? No one can envision another disaster like 2011, but it seems unimaginable that the Colts would throw a guy with a partially separated shoulder on the field again this year, when he is surely going to get hit even more than he has in the past. There is blood in the water and the NFL is full of hungry sharks who would love to end his or any hurt qb's season.

 

It is possible to 'subluxate' your shoulder without doing any major structural damage (i.e., no muscle or ligament tear).  

 

Rest is a good thing.  If he doesn't need surgery, that is probably all he needs.  No sense in risking our future by subjecting him to risk depending on how serious the injury is, but there is also a chance there is nothing serious and he isn't at risk to major injury once any soreness goes away.

 

As far as the 'hungry sharks' comment goes, that is probably a fair statement, although I don't think there are many players out there anymore who are intentionally trying to hurt others.  Either way, if we can fix our O-Line and Luck improves on his pass selection/Pep improves on play options/Luck improves on play selection (i.e., use the check down instead of dragging plays out waiting for a deep route to open up, or just have short options) to get the ball out sooner, we shouldn't worry about him getting smacked around too much.

[2006Coltsbestever]

I find it kind of hard to believe Luck would miss two games with just a "sore shoulder".

I do too. I talked to my dad earlier on the phone and he thinks it's a broken collar bone, He says that because of the way Andrew was moving, etc.. He's had that happen to him. Normally those heal pretty quickly but takes 4-6 weeks in general. I just cant stand the lies by the media and the reporting. Just come out and say what his injury is. It's horrible for the fans not knowing.

[DougDew]

I think the NFL rules require teams to disclose the extent of an injury, if they know it. Of course, if a slightly torn Labrum does not show up on an MRI, then nobody knows the extent of the injury. He could be listed as questionable and day-to-day for a number of weeks if the original injury is never discovered.