Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[Yehoodi]

Wrong - again on several fronts.  

 

1.  There was NO RULE in place in the towel issue.  You know this but conveniently keep claiming there was a rule.  Additionally, there was no "sticky" substance on the towel, the towel itself was somewhat tacky and was widely used in the league.  After the issue, the league created a rule.  They found no rule violation.  They eventually also found no obstruction or non-cooperation.  

 

2.  The Patriots balls were handled illegally and broke the chain of possession rules when they were absconded from the refs' dressing room.  There is NEVER a reason they should have been touched and no reason at all for an experienced team employee to do so that can be explained in any other way than to do wrong with them.  

 

3.  Their measurements after that possession were measured significantly below the standard.

 

4.  There is no other event of this magnitude that I can think of.  There was intent.  This was a significant breaking of protocol.  This is a league which has generally worked on an honor system, with a "trust but verify" approach. The Patriots, once again, took advantage of the fact that no one could imagine them trying to gain a small but potentially significant advantage by BREAKING A CLEAR RULE.

 

I merely point out this action to show how the NFL reacted to actions which effect how one interacts with a ball, that is all.  It is clear from the NFL's reaction is that it was not a big concern for the NFL.  The NFL certainly felt that it was an enough of an issue to subsequently outlaw the towels, so its not like the towels were innocent, contrary to how you want to spin it.

 

As for a rules violation, if whatever substance was on the towel got onto the ball in any manner it would be violation of the ball tampering rule, the very one in question in this thread.  Bottom line, the rule in question prevents ANY tampering with the ball in ANY way, so whatever foreign substance (i.e. not like your average towel you use to dry yourself off after a shower as that towel is just the material is made out of) is on the towel and it got onto the ball its a violation of a rule, plain and simple. Period.  

 

And lets not be naive here, the players and teams that were using the towels "more probable than not" knew there was some tacky substance on the towels and very likely used the towels for the benefit of that substance (after all they could of purchase towels without a tacky substance right?).  And "more probably than not" they wiped their gloves with the towels and invariably those gloves touched the ball.  Period.  And if you sit and wonder why the NFL outlawed the towels, I think you can do the above math.  Okay?

 

Now did the NFL start a league wide investigation into all of the teams?  No, why, because its not really an issue.  We had a somewhat league wide use of a foreign sticky substance that was intentionally used by some teams which "more probably than not" got its way onto the ball; and thus, more probably than not there was a rules violation, the same one in question in the instant thread.

 

Bottom line, if the NFL thought the substance was innocent they would not have outlawed its usage.  But they did not think it was innocent.  They did however demonstrate a low level of concern for a substance and action which they felt the need to outlawed.  this is the crust of my point.

 

Also, for the third or fourth time, when the NFL investigated the incident (regardless of it was a ref on the field or a scientist in a lab in California) it met with obstruction by the team and its employees.  The NFL merely issued a fine and not a suspension for that obstruction.  The fact that the obstruction fine was subsequently overturned does not change the fact that when initially faced with a decision regarding a penalty for one obstructing an investigation for actions which involved ones interaction with the ball it chose a fine and not a suspension.

 

So my point being is that given above precedent I do not see how the NFL can suspend Brady for any actions regarding what it felt he obstructed the process of the investigation. 

 

Its not like the NFL found out about the balls at half time and exchange them for the back up balls, then issued an directive on Monday indicating that "We have found some inconsistencies with the balls played with by both the colts and the patriots in the AFCCG and we wish to remind folks that it is against the rules to tampering with the balls"

 

And then if after that directive someone plays hanky panky with the balls then we are in a different element.

[Yehoodi]

Refs will have complete control of the balls right up to start of the game, where K ball group/NFL Ops takes over.  No more home team locker room attendants.

 

I recently heard that at any time during the game, including half time, any ball measuring below 12.5 psi will be recorded and re-inflated to 13.0 psi. You bet the NFL will record time, temp, barometric pressure, wind speed, and relative humidity as well. Those cold and wet/snowy days ought to be fun now...

 

I hear you but I just want to get some data.  We do not have any data and we are shooting in the dark.   And like I mentioned, we have no quantitative data of the effects of football players handling the balls and how the same effects the balls, effect of water on the ball with respect to its volume, do some balls have a natural leak, etc. 

 

It will be interesting to see what the NFL comes up with this season.  I really really really hope they post the results. 

[Bad Morty]

The laughable part of all of this is that a player today could apply stickum to his gloves like in the old days and go out and play...and if caught, he'd face a fine of under $10,000. That's it.

[dynasty13]

Not to 'deflect' anything...but I still can't believe that nobody seems to care about the Falcons getting caught pumping in crowd noise, yet air pressure in a football became some national scandal. I mean, on one hand, we have a situation that has proven to affect a football game, and on the other, we have air pressure in a freaking football. And which one do people want to look at and call out for cheating?

 

Crazy.

[Bad Morty]

Not to 'deflect' anything...but I still can't believe that nobody seems to care about the Falcons getting caught pumping in crowd noise, yet air pressure in a football became some national scandal. I mean, on one hand, we have a situation that has proven to affect a football game, and on the other, we have air pressure in a freaking football. And which one do people want to look at and call out for cheating?

 

Crazy.

I mean...it's pretty obvious why fans here wouldn't want to focus on pumped in crowd noise.

[SteelCityColt]

Not to 'deflect' anything...but I still can't believe that nobody seems to care about the Falcons getting caught pumping in crowd noise, yet air pressure in a football became some national scandal. I mean, on one hand, we have a situation that has proven to affect a football game, and on the other, we have air pressure in a freaking football. And which one do people want to look at and call out for cheating?

 

Crazy.

 

Yes... but the Falcons haven't fought the punishment tooth and nail. 

[Gramz]

I mean...it's pretty obvious why fans here wouldn't want to focus on pumped in crowd noise.

It's amusing what some people view as obvious, yet are completely and totally oblivious to things that really are obvious. Just sayin'

[Bad Morty]

It's amusing what some people view as obvious, yet are completely and totally oblivious to things that really are obvious. Just sayin'

 

It was "well known" (does that phrase sound familiar?) that the Colts were doing this around the league. Many teams accused them of it.

[SteelCityColt]

I mean...it's pretty obvious why fans here wouldn't want to focus on pumped in crowd noise.

Seeing as the investigation completely exonerated the Colts and all....

[Bad Morty]

Seeing as the investigation completely exonerated the Colts and all....

 

What investigation? I don't recall Ted Wells investigating this despite it being a persistent rumor around the league.

[SteelCityColt]

What investigation? I don't recall Ted Wells investigating this despite it being a persistent rumor around the league.

 

I didn't say an independent investigation now did I?

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/9/30/6876139/ravens-coach-john-harbaugh-brings-up-colts-crowd-noise-rumors-again

 

The pertinent quote

"The NFL has investigated both in 2005 and in 2007 and found nothing to even suggest that the Colts piped in crowd noise, but people don't mention that.  They just mention the rumours."

[Bad Morty]

I didn't say an independent investigation now did I?

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2014/9/30/6876139/ravens-coach-john-harbaugh-brings-up-colts-crowd-noise-rumors-again

 

The pertinent quote

"The NFL has investigated both in 2005 and in 2007 and found nothing to even suggest that the Colts piped in crowd noise, but people don't mention that.  They just mention the rumours."

I see...so you are acknowledging that there ARE rumors about this around the league...just like there were rumors that the Pats deflated footballs.

[dynasty13]

Yes... but the Falcons haven't fought the punishment tooth and nail. 

 

I wouldn't fight it either if it only costed me a 5th round pick!!!

 

I just think for something that has literally been proven to influence the actual game itself, the punishment was quite light when comparing to how severely another situation was punished for something that is only speculative in terms of its in-game influence. 

 

I mean, it's all about the integrity of the game, right???

[SteelCityColt]

I see...so you are acknowledging that there ARE rumors about this around the league...just like there were rumors that the Pats deflated footballs.

 

And the league investigated both... so what's your point? 

[SteelCityColt]

I wouldn't fight it either if it only costed me a 5th round pick!!!

 

I just think for something that has literally been proven to influence the actual game itself, the punishment was quite light when comparing to how severely another situation was punished for something that is only speculative in terms of its in-game influence. 

 

I mean, it's all about the integrity of the game, right???

 

The missing part to your argument is to speculate what the punishment would have been if the Pats/Brady had admitted it from the off... slap on the wrists? 

 

That harshness of punishment comes from the urine production contest they go into with the league over this whole affair. 

[Bad Morty]

And the league investigated both... so what's your point? 

My point is that despite the investigations you claim happened in '05 and '07, people still think the Colts do this. Just last fall, Harbaugh was throwing it out there (again...how familiar does that sound) http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-chuck-pagano-takes-allegations-of-fake-crowd-noise-as-challenge-to-colts-fans-20141001-story.html

 

No smoking gun was found proving the Colts did this. No smoking gun has been found proving the rumors of the Patriots deflating balls either.

[ColtsBlueFL]

It appears the sides are gearing up for the first pre-trial meeting, and afterwards...

 

Case Developments

August 7, 2015

National Football League Management Council v. National Football League Players Association

Declaration in Support of Motion

DECLARATION of David L. Greenspan in Support re: 34 MOTION to Vacate Arbitration Award.. Document filed by Tom Brady, National Football League Players Association. (Attachments: # 1 Exhibit A)(Greenspan, David)

August 7, 2015

National Football League Management Council v. National Football League Players Association

Memorandum of Law in Support of Motion

MEMORANDUM OF LAW in Support re: 34 MOTION to Vacate Arbitration Award. . Document filed by Tom Brady, National Football League Players Association. (Kessler, Jeffrey)

August 7, 2015

National Football League Management Council v. National Football League Players Association

Memorandum of Law in Support of Motion

MEMORANDUM OF LAW in Support re: 33 MOTION to Confirm Arbitration NFL Management Council's Notice of Motion to Confirm the Labor Arbitration Award Regarding Tom Brady. NFL Management Council's Memorandum of Law in Support of Motion to Confirm and in Opposition to Motion to Vacate the Labor Arbitration Award Regarding Tom Brady. Document filed by National Football League Management Council. (Nash, Daniel)

August 7, 2015

National Football League Management Council v. National Football League Players Association

Vacate Arbitration

MOTION to Vacate Arbitration Award. Document filed by Tom Brady, National Football League Players Association.(Kessler, Jeffrey)

August 7, 2015

National Football League Management Council v. National Football League Players Association

Confirm Arbitration

MOTION to Confirm Arbitration NFL Management Council's Notice of Motion to Confirm the Labor Arbitration Award Regarding Tom Brady. Document filed by National Football League Management Council. Return Date set for 8/19/2015 at 10:00 AM.(Nash, Daniel)

[Gramz]

God I hope they come to an agreement soon.

[dynasty13]

The missing part to your argument is to speculate what the punishment would have been if the Pats/Brady had admitted it from the off... slap on the wrists? 

 

That harshness of punishment comes from the urine production contest they go into with the league over this whole affair. 

 

Well if that's the case then I think its total nonsense that the league wants to make the case that it's an integrity of the game issue. If the action itself that affects the game is truly the issue, then the punishments should be reflective of the severity of said action...not based on the subsequent reaction of those involved.

[jvan1973]

It was "well known" (does that phrase sound familiar?) that the Colts were doing this around the league. Many teams accused them of it.

They were investigated and cleared. They also fully cooperated

[SteelCityColt]

My point is that despite the investigations you claim happened in '05 and '07, people still think the Colts do this. Just last fall, Harbaugh was throwing it out there (again...how familiar does that sound) http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-chuck-pagano-takes-allegations-of-fake-crowd-noise-as-challenge-to-colts-fans-20141001-story.html

 

No smoking gun was found proving the Colts did this. No smoking gun has been found proving the rumors of the Patriots deflating balls either.

 

Yes in one case the league felt they had found enough to hand out a pretty severe punishment. 

 

So quit deflecting by trying to compare apples to oranges ya de ya de ya. 

[SteelCityColt]

Well if that's the case then I think its total nonsense that the league wants to make the case that it's an integrity of the game issue. If the action itself that affects the game is truly the issue, then the punishments should be reflective of the severity of said action...not based on the subsequent reaction of those involved.

 

Yes and no. Depends on your viewpoint on punishment as a principal in general. Do those who cooperate and own up deserve more lenient punishment? The flip side being those who go out their way to obstruct an investigation (say destroying evidence) will normally get a punishment on top for this. 

 

. 

[crazycolt1]

See, this is the stuff that drives me crazy...when someone gets the simplest of details wrong in their case to try and 'prove' something.

 

You are confusing who Jastremski is and who McNally is. Brady knew Jastresmki and he was the one that Brady texted about how he was holding up. McNally was the one that Brady only knew by nickname...not the self given deflator nickname...but by the nickname 'Bird' that he was known by in the locker room. That is why when he was asked if he knew who Jim McNally was, he said no. Brady would recognize him, sure, but he didn't know his real name and why would he? Brady doesn't deal directly with him, only with Jastremski. 

So by trading the two names it still explains the 'gifts"?  Like I said, smoke and fire.

[dynasty13]

Yes and no. Depends on your viewpoint on punishment as a principal in general. Do those who cooperate and own up deserve more lenient punishment? The flip side being those who go out their way to obstruct an investigation (say destroying evidence) will normally get a punishment on top for this. 

 

. 

 

And I agree with that aspect of it...I just wish the NFL would stop making the case that it's all about the integrity of the game. Their punishment doesn't align with that explanation. They could use any other terminology they want and that's fine...but as soon as you punish based on the response and not the action itself, it no longer is about the actual integrity of the game itself.

[dynasty13]

So by trading the two names it still explains the 'gifts"?  Like I said, smoke and fire.

 

Yes. It is widely known that quarterbacks 'tip' their equipment guys with those sorts of items. That isn't exactly the breaking news that you want it to be and I don't quite understand why you can't comprehend this fact. You're taking quite a leap to just assume that in this case only it is a clear example of the quarterback trying to bribe.

[HOZER]

but, but, but, crowd noise......stickum.....witchhunt .....PEDs, the amount of deflection going on is pathetic.

[crazycolt1]

Yes. It is widely known that quarterbacks 'tip' their equipment guys with those sorts of items. That isn't exactly the breaking news that you want it to be and I don't quite understand why you can't comprehend this fact. You're taking quite a leap to just assume that in this case only it is a clear example of the quarterback trying to bribe.

I guess my comprehension is just as good as yours. You don't seem to grasp any comprehension of what cooperation means. The media has so many theories and opinions and puts out story after story on what they think happened. It's all just a ploy to keep them in the spot light. I can read a million of media reports and opinions and it means zero. The facts are what will determine this, not the press or some outside influence.

[pgt_rob]

The laughable part of all of this is that a player today could apply stickum to his gloves like in the old days and go out and play...and if caught, he'd face a fine of under $10,000. That's it.

 

Yep. But if caught more than once though......

[cdgacoltsfan]

God I hope they come to an agreement soon.

Im hoping Brady gets 2-5 years with no time off for good behavior.

[dynasty13]

I guess my comprehension is just as good as yours. You don't seem to grasp any comprehension of what cooperation means. The media has so many theories and opinions and puts out story after story on what they think happened. It's all just a ploy to keep them in the spot light. I can read a million of media reports and opinions and it means zero. The facts are what will determine this, not the press or some outside influence.

 

I'm not exactly sure what your point is here with this post. You asked me to explain the 'gifts'. I'm not talking about media driven theories or opinions...I'm talking about facts and you don't seem to understand them. You are the one taking this giant leap to try to show that a quarterback giving their equipment guys gifts in the form of autographs or paraphernalia is some proof of bribing...that is a theory that completely disregards that this is a well known practice and not at all unusual or specific to this 'case'.

 

Listen, I know it sucks when you try to make a point but then it's easily explained away...but just because it doesn't fit your narrative, that doesn't mean it isn't true.

[GoColts8818]

Oh now we're back to the Colts cheated card which has nothing to do with this because the Colts were investigated twice and cleared. This is like a soap opera you miss a week and within minutes feel like you missed nothing because it's the something being said over and over on a loop.

[Cynjin]

Well if that's the case then I think its total nonsense that the league wants to make the case that it's an integrity of the game issue. If the action itself that affects the game is truly the issue, then the punishments should be reflective of the severity of said action...not based on the subsequent reaction of those involved.

That is not even close to being based in reality.

[ColtsBlueFL]

The laughable part of all of this is that a player today could apply stickum to his gloves like in the old days and go out and play...and if caught, he'd face a fine of under $10,000. That's it.

 

I haven't researched the penalty for Stickum, but I'll take your word temporarily on it.

 

From where I sit, Stickum on gloves only affects one player, and only inasmuch as he is targeted.  Compared to a football that is involved in every single offensive play and by every player in possession of it.  Stickum can't be easily hidden, air pressure is not easily detectable.  But the most discernible, tackiness isn't outlawed in the NFL.  Ther are "gloves with tactified surfaces" - with a synthetic material in the palm instead of old-school leather.  They have gotten really good recently, and are in favor now days.  Likewise, Eaquipment mangers are getting really good at prepping ame balls (besides pressure LOL) to make the ball soft and tacky.  Sean Sullivan remarked how soft and tacky Brady's ball was, before 'illegally stabbing it and calling Kensil in to shut down the Patriots organization forever in a highly bumbled keystone cop type sting scheme!' {Does that sum it up, Pats fans?  lulz...}

 

Tacky items are OK in the NFL, as long as it doesn't transfer from the ball to other surfaces, or from gloves or other surfaces onto the ball.  OTOH, the league wants all footballs at 13.0 psi, with a small window just above and below for margin of error..  Now has anybody ever been punished breaking the 'Lester Hayes' rule?  what was the penalty, what was the precedent for it?

 

Not to 'deflect' anything...but I still can't believe that nobody seems to care about the Falcons getting caught pumping in crowd noise, yet air pressure in a football became some national scandal. I mean, on one hand, we have a situation that has proven to affect a football game, and on the other, we have air pressure in a freaking football. And which one do people want to look at and call out for cheating?

 

Crazy.

 

As long as they get punished via the CBA set punishment and precedent set, then what is to complain about?  Also, Many stadiums are too loud for offenses to operate in.  Legally. Period. Thus, the use of silent counts.  Long ago there were game delays, and even penalties assessed for excessive fan noise. No longer, deal with it.  That's the 12th man at work.  But if a 13th man is involved, hammer down via the CBA declared penalty.  The 13th man infraction is just sad, and more likely last resort of an organization not in the upper tier.  IMHO, fined $350,000 dollars, loss of a 5th round 2016 pick, and the Head of the Competition Committee, Rich McKay, being suspended from April 1 to June 30, 2015  seems a touch harsh, but no biggie.

 

If anything, I am upset about the Browns only getting $250,000 fine, no loss of draft picks, and GM Ray Farmer suspended just 4 games for sending Text messages to the sidelines during games.  Details of content were not revealed, but they were on in game strategy.  With today's Smartphones, its easily conceivable video taping and photos were included, and that to me is akin to Spygate.  So if you want to pick something I may get fired up over as much as Deflategate, it would be Textgate.

[jabbanobadda]

The laughable part of all of this is that a player today could apply stickum to his gloves like in the old days and go out and play...and if caught, he'd face a fine of under $10,000. That's it.

That's ridiculous...

[LogicLover]

Why are we spending a lot of time talking about Falcons noise, World poverty, Kim Kardashian, Jerry Springer in a Patriots Deflategate thread?.

[dynasty13]

That is not even close to being based in reality.

 

No?

 

So lying about your involvement in an illegal action is the thing that affects the integrity of the game...but the illegal action itself that quite literally effects the game doesn't?

[SteelCityColt]

And I agree with that aspect of it...I just wish the NFL would stop making the case that it's all about the integrity of the game. Their punishment doesn't align with that explanation. They could use any other terminology they want and that's fine...but as soon as you punish based on the response and not the action itself, it no longer is about the actual integrity of the game itself.

This I can agree with.

[Bad Morty]

That's ridiculous...

That's real... http://m.nbcsports.com/content/%E2%80%9Cconduct-detrimental%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cequipment-violation%E2%80%9D-brady-vs-nfl

 

Consider this: If a player were caught using stickum to help him catch the footballs thrown by his quarterback (or, to make the facts more aligned with the Brady case, if the player knew that the equipment managers were applying stickum to his gloves for him), would he be committing conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game?

Perhaps, but the NFL already has agreed that the fine for a first offense would be $8,681.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Why are we spending a lot of time talking about Falcons noise, World poverty, Kim Kardashian, Jerry Springer in a Patriots Deflategate thread?.

 

Ahh, you're new here.   Welcome! 

 

And, well... , get used to it.  It is their top Method of Operation in anything to deal with Deflategate when lacking items supporting their side.

 

To steal a scene from Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, it is their 'Finger pointing away to the moon'  Trying to get us to look at the finger rather than focus on the moon.

 

[Cynjin]

No?

 

So lying about your involvement in an illegal action is the thing that affects the integrity of the game...but the illegal action itself that quite literally effects the game doesn't?

No, the idea that not cooperating with an investigation is going to get you the same penalty that cooperating with an investigation does is just silly. The Falcons cooperated, so did the Browns, the Patriots did not. It is really a pretty basic concept, cooperate and you are less likely to get a harsh punishment.