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Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

IndyD4U

By IndyD4U
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bababooey Walk On

bababooey

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And I gave you a simple answer:

Innocent people don't admit guilt, and he's maintained his innocence since day 1.

Aaron Hernandez maintained innocence. Alex Rodriguez, Lance Armstrong, and Pete Rose did too for a long time. I'm sure you've never lied to your parents to avoid being punished over something you did.

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pgt_rob Active Roster

pgt_rob

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So I'm assuming that the courts aren't going to go through all the texts, even to make sure none were missed. Sounds like the judge just wants them both to agree on something and move on. That's it, no more digging into it any further.

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southwest1 Walk On

southwest1

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Not having beginning measurements by definition means that statements regarding the change in pressure when the balls were measured at halftime are estimates, not actual numbers. I would think that would be a somewhat critical omission of data that the league should have considered before destroying a guy's legacy the way they have.

 

Just because gauge measurements weren't written down doesn't necessarily mean a deliberate attempt to sabotage a QB's legacy was an intentional conspiracy was committed by Walt Anderson BM. Does this mishap look bad from a basic competency standpoint? Sure it does, but does it prove intentional fraud? No, of course not. 

Brady's legacy will be just fine. Everyone out there knows that this violation is a complete joke and something for which the NFL has made itself look foolish and incompetent as usual. And of course it allegedly occurred in a blow out win where Brad scored more points in the second half with inflated footballs than he did in the first half and then went on to shred the best defense in the league in the SB with the best Super Bowl fourth quarter in history.

 

Did you happen to listen last week to WEEI when they were going through the teams in the AFC East? They had Pats hater Manish Mehta to talk about the Jets. They asked him at the end what his thoughts were on Brady related to deflategate and he said that Brady will be ultimately unaffected as he is an all time great whose performance in the past Super Bowl cemented him as the greatest QB in the game. Now if anyone was going to try to use deflategate as a way to take a shot at Brady it would have been Mehta who hates the Pats more than anyone and even he said it won't matter. 

 

What affected Brady's legacy the most these past 7 months was winning that SB in the manner he did. Had he lost that game, he would have gotten lumped in with Elway and Kelly and those QBs that have lost 3 or more SBs but he came through instead with this 3rd SB MVP - most in history with Montana.

AMF, I get that Brady is your favorite QB & I'm cool with that, but can you view Brady & Goodell in a vacuum? Translation: Can you view the Commissioner & the Patriots QB as separate entities in their own timeline? I get the sense that you want to use Goodell's mishandling of Bounty Gate, Ray Rice, & AP's punishments as proof that the Commissioner has lost his authoritative role as protector of the NFL shield & also, if someone not named Brady say Matt Ryan was allegedly accused of the same violation & public relations missteps would you defend Ryan with identical passion? Honest question.  

 

Time heals all 'wounds.'

 

This whole thing will become a footnote, no more, no less. People who don't want to won't forget it, but it won't affect his place on all time lists, it won't affect his place on NFL Network countdowns, it won't affect his place in the Hall of Fame, and it won't affect when he is mentioned years and years from now during Superbowl broadcasts when they talk about him.

 

And I'm sorry to say, but regardless of the outcome of this whole thing, you're just gonna have to get over it too. If he just admitted it at the beginning, the haters would still call him out for it. Their minds were made up the second the Mortensen tweet went public. All the rest is just a show and hasn't changed a thing. 

 

I won't lie to ya D13. Brady will still be a 1st ballot HOF QB who I believe won all his 4 SBs fairly by executing plays flawlessly on the field when it mattered most. I can separate my admiration for a QB's elite skill set from whether or not he had zero knowledge of depleted PSI air pressure. Brady's 1 hades of a QB who lied about his familiarity with air pressure. Does that make him evil? No, if anything, I'm disappointed in him because if he tells the truth this scandal evaporates overnight, but his refusal to this just proves that the ends justifies the means. Win by any means necessary & the consequences be darned. The rules don't apply to me because of who I am & what I have achieved in the NFL. 

Of course that is a sound byte to the answer. Cherry picked by many. Here is the full answer:

 

"I don't believe so," he replied. "I feel like I've always played within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules. I believe in fair play." 

 

Cherry picked? Come on AMF. It's like someone asking you are you child molester & you say I don't believe so. No, Brady is no vile excuse for humanity I agree & my point here is that Brady failed to comprehend the gravity of the situation & what he was really be accused of. Brady's body language said everything & no reasonable person is going to go He said "fair play' is essential to him. Nobody is that absent minded or gullible.  

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Superman Ring of Honor

Superman

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So I'm assuming that the courts aren't going to go through all the texts, even to make sure none were missed. Sounds like the judge just wants them both to agree on something and move on. That's it, no more digging into it any further.

 

It's not a trial. The judge isn't trying to determine whether or not Brady cheated, lied, etc. The judge is responsible for determining whether the NFL acted unfairly or violated the terms of the CBA and/or arbitration agreement that was agreed to by the players and the league/owners. If the two sides agree to a settlement, then the problem is solved, from the court's standpoint.

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southwest1 Walk On

southwest1

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 If the two sides agree to a settlement, then the problem is solved, from the court's standpoint.

At this point, the word settlement sounds like a beautiful conclusion to me. I'm just ready to flip a quarter & end this whole thing. Heads: Brady gets a 2 game suspension. Tails: The original 4 game suspension. 

 

No, Goodell won't flip it. How bout Pete Carroll? I'm cool with that. I still like Brady who's not a monster, but a good dad, husband, & QB who always scares the crap out of me with 45 seconds on the clock & 1 timeout. 

 

I don't hold grudges & I'm sure Goodell could have done a couple of things differently too in hindsight. I just want this whole ordeal over before the games really matter in September. Just put me out of my misery please.

 

I will concede that for NFL fans who hate NE....Objectivity is practically impossible just like my intense cobra venom for the Dallas Cowboys. I will let my disappointment in Brady go eventually, but not immediately. 

 

When Brady gets fitted for his yellow jacket, this incident won't even be in my mental rolodex. I just wanna spectacular football for the ages again & Brady, Brees, Manning, Rogers, & Luck provides that. 

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Superman Ring of Honor

Superman

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At this point, the word settlement sounds like a beautiful conclusion to me. I'm just ready to flip a quarter & end this whole thing. Heads: Brady gets a 2 game suspension. Tails: The original 4 game suspension. 

 

No, Goodell won't flip it. How bout Pete Carroll? I'm cool with that. I still like Brady who's not a monster, but a good dad, husband, & QB who always scares the crap out of me with 45 seconds on the clock & 1 timeout. 

 

I don't hold grudges & I'm sure Goodell could have done a couple of things differently too in hindsight. I just want this whole ordeal over before the games really matter in September. Just put me out of my misery please.

 

I will concede that for NFL fans who hate NE....Objectivity is practically impossible just like my intense cobra venom for the Dallas Cowboys. I will let my disappointment in Brady go eventually, but not immediately. 

 

When Brady gets fitted for his yellow jacket, this incident won't even be in my mental rolodex. I just wanna spectacular football for the ages again & Brady, Brees, Manning, Rogers, & Luck provides that. 

 

I don't know how any of us could know that Tom Brady is a good dad and husband. Six years ago, we all thought the same about Tiger Woods.

 

I'm not saying anything about Tom Brady, certainly not that he's a bad dad or husband. But we really don't know these people, any of them. 

 

I've said from the very beginning, as soon as the suspension was announced, that Brady wouldn't serve a single game. I still think that's the case. Not because I think the NFL botched anything, and certainly not because I think Brady is innocent, but simply because there's plenty of precedent for courts overturning NFL suspensions, even when it's proven that the player was guilty of whatever they were accused of.

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southwest1 Walk On

southwest1

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I don't know how any of us could know that Tom Brady is a good dad and husband. Six years ago, we all thought the same about Tiger Woods.

 

I'm not saying anything about Tom Brady, certainly not that he's a bad dad or husband. But we really don't know these people, any of them. 

 

I've said from the very beginning, as soon as the suspension was announced, that Brady wouldn't serve a single game. I still think that's the case. Not because I think the NFL botched anything, and certainly not because I think Brady is innocent, but simply because there's plenty of precedent for courts overturning NFL suspensions, even when it's proven that the player was guilty of whatever they were accused of.

I never watch golf which next to baseball is the most boring sport on the planet to me so Tiger Woods & his subsequent fall is of no consequence to me at all. I get your larger point though Superman that public perception & reality don't always match up celebrity wise. 

 

You are free to say nothing about Brady on a personal level. I just like Brady despite the fact that his squad has in recent memory pulverized my beloved Colts. I can separate the man from the icon. I've always been good at that. Did Brady lie? Yes. Is the lie insignificant? If he owned up to it, yes it is. However, the fact that Brady let this fire [controversy] expand vs extinguish it cannot be quietly dismissed initially. It's like a small brush fire that Brady threw the match on & now the Natl. Guard must put out. 

 

Here's what I don't want: Brady walks away scot free & a few overzealous Patriots fans rub INDY's nose in it. By the same token, if Brady gets a 2 game suspension, it's pointless to scream from the rooftops "Ah ha this ruling proves NE can't win anything without breaking the rules." The truth usually lies between 2 extremes generally. 

 

Here's what baffles me: If the Players Association gave Goodell the authority to hand down player discipline & most judges tend to steer clear of NFL CBA's, what makes you think this magistrate will let Brady walk? Just because no CBA stipulation can pinpoint what rule Brady violated to warrant a suspension, it doesn't mean he's free & clear. The law is all about interpretation & you can't tell me Brady didn't know about PSI regulations & shining on the Commissioner. That's beyond preposterous to me. JMO.

 

There can't be 2 sets of rules for elite QBs & slightly above average QBs. It's like giving a criminal who stole a $1,000 vs a computer hacker who embezzled 15 billion dollars the same sentence. Popularity & clout doesn't guarantee a Monopoly Get out of jail free card. I'm sorry. 

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SteelCityColt Hall of Famer

SteelCityColt

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When did Pagano comment on whether he had talked to the Ravens? 

 

Not that I'm holding my breath, but please provide proof. Otherwise, this is Exhibit #457 of ViriLudant saying something that has no basis in truth.

 

Good job you weren't holding your breath or you'd be decidedly blue by now.

 

The Internet - where credibility doesn't matter :P

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Narcosys Practice Squad

Narcosys

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Posted

No, he was contacted about both actually. Here are the emails from the Brady appeals transcript:

Among the 457 pages of documents released between the NFL and NFL Players Association on Tuesday is an email from Indianapolis Colts equipment manager Sean Sullivan to team general manager Ryan Grigson.

It was sent on Jan. 17, two days before the New England Patriots faced Indianapolis in the AFC Championship Game, and seven days after New England defeated the Baltimore Ravens in the divisional round.

And it indicates that Ravens special-teams coordinator Jerry Rosburg told Colts head coach Chuck Pagano to keep an eye out for the kicking footballs and game balls at Gillette Stadium.

Sullivan forwarded that information to Grigson.

"Two concerns came up as of yesterday on footballs at New England," Sullivan wrote to Grigson. "First off the special teams coordinator from the Baltimore Ravens called Coach Pagano and said they had issues last week at the game when they were kicking (Baltimore that is) they were given new footballs instead of the ones that were prepared correctly. We would like to use the footballs that I will break in (Balls 2, 4 and 6) so that we know that we are getting nothing that has been tampered with."

Sullivan continued, also noting the gameballs used by quarterback Tom Brady and the Patriots.

"As far as the gameballs are concerned it is well known around the league that after Patriots gameballs are checked by officials and brought out for game usage the ballboys for the Patriots will let out some air out with a ball needle because their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better," Sullivan informed Grigson.

I'm confused. First it says he contacted Pagano directly about the kicking balls, but then it days he contacted grigson about the game balls. Which is it? Did he contact both about different subjects or did he contact Grigs and the reporter tries to infer that he contacted Pagano by virtue of Grigs?
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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

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Posted

 

 

AMF, I get that Brady is your favorite QB & I'm cool with that, but can you view Brady & Goodell in a vacuum? Translation: Can you view the Commissioner & the Patriots QB as separate entities in their own timeline? I get the sense that you want to use Goodell's mishandling of Bounty Gate, Ray Rice, & AP's punishments as proof that the Commissioner has lost his authoritative role as protector of the NFL shield & also, if someone not named Brady say Matt Ryan was allegedly accused of the same violation & public relations missteps would you defend Ryan with identical passion? Honest question.  

 

 

Yes. I would feel exactly the same if it was another QB. I have been saying for more than a year now that Goodell and his staff are buffoons. This past year easily proved it in spades with this deflated footballs saga as the cherry on top. 

 

Think about this SW. This commish has let an equipment violation rise to the level of a national scandal for months and months usurping his own Super Bowl, off-season and now start of 2015 season because he refused to settle this back in Jan. He now finds himself in federal court today with the sports biggest star of the past 15 years. His punishment to boot all based on circumstantial evidence which also ignores the circumstantial evidence that favors the Pats not tampering was so over the top that even staunch Patriot haters have said it was too harsh including some on this board. The national media has given him a complete bath the last week since the Brady transcript went public and unveiled his lies in his appeals award letter and inconsistencies in the league's position with regards to Wells independence. I have never seen someone hold the position he does and be so dumb. Every NFL fan should be horrified at how this has gone down with the league but given the hate toward the Pats many have simply turned a blind eye which is a shame as this has been a complete embarrassment.

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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

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Here is an article, SW, by Wetzel of Yahoo that perfectly summarizes my sentiments on this whole thing and underscores the incompetence and lying by Goodell.

 

As Brady-NFL settlement talks begin, unsettling picture continues to emerge on league's conduct

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/brady-vs--goodell-hits-new-battleground--but-theme-remains--nfl-isn-t-fighting-fair--062446546.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma

 

A few snippets:

 

Even if you suspect Brady is as guilty as sin there is no denying the NFL had a profoundly weak case here.

 

The proof is that the NFL felt compelled to state Brady said the exact opposite of what he actually said, not correct false media stories, hire a non-independent/independent investigator, ignore overwhelming scientific conclusions and even change the verdict after the verdict was rendered – in May, the NFL claimed it was "more probable than not" that Brady was "generally aware" of the deflation; in the July appeal decision, Goodell significantly upped that and despite a lack of additional evidence suddenly claimed Brady "approved of, consented to, and provided inducements and rewards in support of a scheme."

 

If this was a fair and strong investigation, then none of that is needed. If Ted Wells did a good job, then he could've stood on his own. Instead you have a case that can be perhaps best defined by bookend media reports, each false and each extremely prejudicial to Brady and the Patriots.

 

The first came in January via ESPN that 11 of 12 footballs were deflated by more than 2 pounds per square inch, which turned a curiosity into a tidal wave of controversy. The last came in July, via NFL.com, that Brady and the NFLPA sought to have a transcript of his appeals hearing sealed, which was "interpreted by those on the league side as an attempt to keep the destruction of the cellphone from ever becoming public, because Brady's representatives surely knew how dubious that decision would look."

 

Even if the Pats are guilty, this should've been treated as more misdemeanor than felony.

 

Consider, as ProFootballTalk.com pointed out, the penalty for a player who is caught with "stick 'em" on his gloves. This practice would be employed to gain extra grip on the ball, fairly akin to deflating a ball. Under the collective bargaining agreement, a guilty player would be fined $8,681.

 

That's it, eight grand. Get caught a second time and it's $17,363.

Because no one ever cared about the inflation levels of footballs, there is no specific punishment for being "generally aware" of a possibly underinflated football.

 

Thus Goodell was allowed to jump from an $8,681 fine all the way to declaring Brady guilty of "conduct detrimental to the integrity of … the game of professional football" which meant a quarter of the season suspension (plus hitting the Patriots for a million bucks and a first- and fourth-round draft pick).

Really? After eight months and no concrete proof there was no middle ground there?

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Narcosys Practice Squad

Narcosys

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Pagano lied when he said he hadn't communicated with the Ravens about the issue before the AFCCG.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/04/ravens-assistant-alerted-colts-to-issue-with-footballs/

Liar.

Please define "the issue". Because the report says Sullivan emailed Grigs that the ST coach contacted Pagano about the kicking balls. It then says he continued to tell Grigs about game balls. This doesn't say the ST coach told Pagano about the game balls and air pressure, only the kicking balls.
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dynasty13 Walk On

dynasty13

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No.  what he was saying was, just because someone maintains innocence, doesn't mean they are..  He cited 4 clear examples...

 

He cited four clear examples where there was clear proof to counter innocence claims. Admission by the defense the Hernandez was present during the killing along with video of him holding a gun, failed drug tests by Arod and Lance Armstrong, and Rose himself admitting to betting on baseball and accepting and agreeing to permanent ineligibility.

 

That kind of evidence isn't present here, yet some have found him guilty anyways and just can't quite fathom why he won't admit to it. 

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bababooey Walk On

bababooey

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He cited four clear examples where there was clear proof to counter innocence claims. Admission by the defense the Hernandez was present during the killing along with video of him holding a gun, failed drug tests by Arod and Lance Armstrong, and Rose himself admitting to betting on baseball and accepting and agreeing to permanent ineligibility.

 

That kind of evidence isn't present here, yet some have found him guilty anyways and just can't quite fathom why he won't admit to it. 

 

You were still incorrect on saying guilty until proven innocence.

 

You realize the proof is in the text messages and under oath testimony of the ball boys right? In the face of the circumstantial evidence, the NFL didn't even need that proof for everyone with 2 brain cells to know. Everyone knows why he doesn't want to admit it: because he doesn't want to be labeled a cheater and remembered as "Yea he won four superbowls BUT" guy.

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Gramz Team Captain

Gramz

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He cited four clear examples where there was clear proof to counter innocence claims. Admission by the defense the Hernandez was present during the killing along with video of him holding a gun, failed drug tests by Arod and Lance Armstrong, and Rose himself admitting to betting on baseball and accepting and agreeing to permanent ineligibility.

That kind of evidence isn't present here, yet some have found him guilty anyways and just can't quite fathom why he won't admit to it.

All 4 of these maintained their innocence ~ for awhile.

Believe what you want. I think you're a smart person, and deep down I think you know Brady is guilty, but you don't agree with the penalty and you're hoping he will get off on a technicality. That is not the same as being innocent.

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dynasty13 Walk On

dynasty13

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Not at all. Just pointing out your insanely flawed logic that is "innocent people don't lie about their innocence".

 

That's not what I said.

 

I said that innocent people don't admit guilt.

 

You all want him to just 'man up and admit it'...but IF he's innocent, why the heck would he admit to something that he didn't do? That literally would make zero sense. 

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bababooey Walk On

bababooey

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That's not what I said.

 

I said that innocent people don't admit guilt.

 

You all want him to just 'man up and admit it'...but IF he's innocent, why the heck would he admit to something that he didn't do? That literally would make zero sense. 

You insinuated that all people who maintain innocence must be innocent and you know it.

 

NEWS FLASH: HES NOT INNOCENT, that's why we want him to man up and admit it.

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Bad Morty Walk On

Bad Morty

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The Goodell Beating goes on http://sports.yahoo.com/news/brady-vs--goodell-hits-new-battleground--but-theme-remains--nfl-isn-t-fighting-fair--062446546.html

 

Even if you suspect Brady is as guilty as sin there is no denying the NFL had a profoundly weak case here.

he proof is that the NFL felt compelled to state Brady said the exact opposite of what he actually said, not correct false media stories, hire a non-independent/independent investigator, ignore overwhelming scientific conclusions and even change the verdict after the verdict was rendered – in May, the NFL claimed it was "more probable than not" that Brady was "generally aware" of the deflation; in the July appeal decision, Goodell significantly upped that and despite a lack of additional evidence suddenly claimed Brady "approved of, consented to, and provided inducements and rewards in support of a scheme."

If this was a fair and strong investigation, then none of that is needed. If Ted Wells did a good job, then he could've stood on his own. Instead you have a case that can be perhaps best defined by bookend media reports, each false and each extremely prejudicial to Brady and the Patriots.

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HOZER Team Captain

HOZER

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The Goodell Beating goes on http://sports.yahoo.com/news/brady-vs--goodell-hits-new-battleground--but-theme-remains--nfl-isn-t-fighting-fair--062446546.html

Even if you suspect Brady is as guilty as sin there is no denying the NFL had a profoundly weak case here.

he proof is that the NFL felt compelled to state Brady said the exact opposite of what he actually said, not correct false media stories, hire a non-independent/independent investigator, ignore overwhelming scientific conclusions and even change the verdict after the verdict was rendered – in May, the NFL claimed it was "more probable than not" that Brady was "generally aware" of the deflation; in the July appeal decision, Goodell significantly upped that and despite a lack of additional evidence suddenly claimed Brady "approved of, consented to, and provided inducements and rewards in support of a scheme."

If this was a fair and strong investigation, then none of that is needed. If Ted Wells did a good job, then he could've stood on his own. Instead you have a case that can be perhaps best defined by bookend media reports, each false and each extremely prejudicial to Brady and the Patriots.

AM already posted that, try to keep up.

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bababooey Walk On

bababooey

Posted
Posted

The Goodell Beating goes on http://sports.yahoo.com/news/brady-vs--goodell-hits-new-battleground--but-theme-remains--nfl-isn-t-fighting-fair--062446546.html

 

Even if you suspect Brady is as guilty as sin there is no denying the NFL had a profoundly weak case here.

he proof is that the NFL felt compelled to state Brady said the exact opposite of what he actually said, not correct false media stories, hire a non-independent/independent investigator, ignore overwhelming scientific conclusions and even change the verdict after the verdict was rendered – in May, the NFL claimed it was "more probable than not" that Brady was "generally aware" of the deflation; in the July appeal decision, Goodell significantly upped that and despite a lack of additional evidence suddenly claimed Brady "approved of, consented to, and provided inducements and rewards in support of a scheme."

If this was a fair and strong investigation, then none of that is needed. If Ted Wells did a good job, then he could've stood on his own. Instead you have a case that can be perhaps best defined by bookend media reports, each false and each extremely prejudicial to Brady and the Patriots.

Are any of your 724 posts starting in January not related to this topic? Serious question.

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amfootball Walk On

amfootball

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Posted

Love it. From Mike Ditka:

 

Ditka: Brady shouldn't settle with NFL

7m

ESPN's Mike Ditka on a possible Tom Brady settlement with the NFL: "If you're innocent -- I believe Tom Brady is innocent, I don't believe he has to deflate a football to win a football game -- then you don't."

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bababooey Walk On

bababooey

Posted
Posted

Love it. From Mike Ditka:

 

Ditka: Brady shouldn't settle with NFL

7m

ESPN's Mike Ditka on a possible Tom Brady settlement with the NFL: "If you're innocent -- I believe Tom Brady is innocent, I don't believe he has to deflate a football to win a football game -- then you don't."

Nobody is saying Tom Brady doesn't have to deflate footballs to win games, that's not the question at all. Such a lazy, cop-out statement.

 

Also on behalf of everyone here can you please just stop posting random quotes from people that are pro-Brady? You don't see us blowing this up with quotes from Revis, Aikman, Esiason, etc. 

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bababooey Walk On

bababooey

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There's plenty of evidence that he did, just you decide to live in fantasy land and ignore the lies.

It's amazing bc the Patriots wouldn't let Dumb and Dumber be interviewed after the discovery of the Deflator texts, and the transcripts on Brady's phone that he trashed to impede the investigation, which is why both the organization and Brad are being punished. Yet people will say no evidence exists. HELLO - that is the evidence, it's just being held back as the Pats and Brady were uncooperative.

 

Get the two ballboys under oath after you subpoena the texts and we would be done in 5 minutes.

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LogicLover Walk On

LogicLover

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My goodness.

 

The stubbornness, the arrogant behavior, the rudeness and condescending emails to his manager, Tom Brady is a disgraceful human being. I don't care how good or bad he is with football. His personality as a human being is disgusting.

 

How many of you wish a Ronda Rousey Vs Tom Brady in an octagon?. That arm bar would be a sight to watch !

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