Deflategate Central (one thread, merged, moderated)

[ViriLudant]

Looks good to me?

In fact, the lowest of the 20 readings measuring Patriot footballs at halftime was 10.5 psi. And one of the gauges measuring the four Colts’ footballs that were measured at halftime had three of the balls below 12.5 psi.

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/07/ted-wells-deflategate-tom-brady-patriots-nfl

[dw49]

If they were routinely stabbing balls as Goodell states in his letter -  that this was Brady's scheme for home games then surely McNally would not have let 16 psi balls into Tom's hands, no?

 

And what about Brady telling them to set the balls to 12.5? Why would he be so adamant about the level being compliant with NFL rules if they were just going to deflate them after inspection anyways?

 

 

Who measured the balls in the Jet game ? Why was it an issue ? If Brady felt the refs over inflated footballs , why wouldn't he have brought it up during the game or after the game ?  Does it seem a little strange to you that Brady only mentions this inflated ball issue to his ball guys ? Is it possible that they could not sneak the balls out before this game ? 

 

That's the second time I answered your question. Now you answer the above...

[dw49]

I am pretty bummed out knowing that the longstanding high level scheme to take 0.2 PSI out of footballs has been found out and will be stopped going forward. And we won't even get the #1 overall pick this year after going 0-16.

 

 

Do you have the measurements of the balls that show they all measured 0.2 PSI under the 12.5 standard ? I'm not asking fr someones version of the ideal gas law , I'm asking for measurements.

[crazycolt1]

ROFL ROFL ROFL

So, in other words , a ball can be doctored on the sideline, is that what you're saying ?

Your pretty good at putting your own meanings to things. If my comment needs explaining to you find someone else to do that for you.

[amfootball]

Who measured the balls in the Jet game ? Why was it an issue ? If Brady felt the refs over inflated footballs , why wouldn't he have brought it up during the game or after the game ?  Does it seem a little strange to you that Brady only mentions this inflated ball issue to his ball guys ? Is it possible that they could not sneak the balls out before this game ? 

 

That's the second time I answered your question. Now you answer the above...

The issue with the Jets game is the balls were submitted at 12.7 which is what they had been set at before Brady became QB and what McNally had always set them at. But the ref (Levy I think was the ref from the Wells report) added air and did not bother to re-gauge which is why the balls were at 16. Brady was upset at his ball guys because they allowed the refs to add the air that is why he says in the text to show the refs the rule and that 12.5-13.5 is a permissible range for the balls so that way they won't add air. This, by the way shows how little the refs paid attention to the psi rule and why Brady did not even bother to address it with the league but with his guys and why he also told the NFL in the appeals hearing that it was the Jets game where he first became concerned with psi because the ref at the Jets game had gone way above the range. Also, Wells in his report said he interviewed the ref from the Jets game but never bothered to include any of his testimony. Probably because it would have underscored just how poor the league is at ball handling when it comes to this rule.

 

Also, out of all the electronic data Wells gathered, this was the only time he ever had any comms from Brady about psi. The only one. And it was because the Jets refs screwed up the psi. I mean don't you think if there was some scheme going on, Brady would have texted to JJ about why McNally had not deflated the balls after the ref checked them? I mean that would make sense wouldn't it if this was a longstanding scheme and McNally screwed it up so bad that Brady had to play with 16 psi balls? Wouldn't have Brady said, "were you not able to dunk into a bathroom or some room and stab them?"

[dw49]

The issue with the Jets game is the balls were submitted at 12.5 but the ref (Levy I think was the ref from the Wells report) added air and did not bother to re-gauge which is why the balls were at 16. Brady was upset at his ball guys because they allowed the refs to add the air that is why he says in the text to show the refs the rule and that 12.5 is a permissible range for the balls so that way they won't add air. This, by the way is shows how little the refs paid attention to the psi rule and why Brady did not even bother to address it with the league but with his guys and why he also told the NFL in the appeals hearing that it was the Jets game where he first became concerned with psi because the ref at the Jets game had gone way above the range. Also, Wells in his report said he interviewed the ref for that game but never bothered to include any of his testimony. Probably because it would have underscored just how poor the league is at ball handling when it comes to this rule.

 

 

How in the world do you know why Brady didn't address balls at 16 PSI to the league. You really need to stop pulling things out of thin air. 

 

you never address the possibility that maybe Jastremski couldn't steal the game balls at some games.

[amfootball]

How in the world do you know why Brady didn't address balls at 16 PSI to the league. You really need to stop pulling things out of thin air. 

 

you never address the possibility that maybe Jastremski couldn't steal the game balls at some games.

You really need to read the appeals transcript. Brady goes over all of this in great detail.

 

BTW, I edited my first post to include some more detail. You quoted the old version.

[Bad Morty]

Do you have the measurements of the balls that show they all measured 0.2 PSI under the 12.5 standard ? I'm not asking fr someones version of the ideal gas law , I'm asking for measurements.

It's in the Wells report...Exponent came up with a range they would expect the balls to have landed at based on the Ideal Gas Law and the conditions and most of the Pats balls were south of that number by 0.2 - 0.3 PSI.

[dw49]

It's in the Wells report...Exponent came up with a range they would expect the balls to have landed at based on the Ideal Gas Law and the conditions and most of the Pats balls were south of that number by 0.2 - 0.3 PSI.

 

 

K.. that makes your statement legit

[dw49]

The issue with the Jets game is the balls were submitted at 12.7 which is what they had been set at before Brady became QB and what McNally had always set them at. But the ref (Levy I think was the ref from the Wells report) added air and did not bother to re-gauge which is why the balls were at 16. Brady was upset at his ball guys because they allowed the refs to add the air that is why he says in the text to show the refs the rule and that 12.5-13.5 is a permissible range for the balls so that way they won't add air. This, by the way shows how little the refs paid attention to the psi rule and why Brady did not even bother to address it with the league but with his guys and why he also told the NFL in the appeals hearing that it was the Jets game where he first became concerned with psi because the ref at the Jets game had gone way above the range. Also, Wells in his report said he interviewed the ref from the Jets game but never bothered to include any of his testimony. Probably because it would have underscored just how poor the league is at ball handling when it comes to this rule.

 

Also, out of all the electronic data Wells gathered, this was the only time he ever had any comms from Brady about psi. The only one. And it was because the Jets refs screwed up the psi. I mean don't you think if there was some scheme going on, Brady would have texted to JJ about why McNally had not deflated the balls after the ref checked them? I mean that would make sense wouldn't it if this was a longstanding scheme and McNally screwed it up so bad that Brady had to play with 16 psi balls? Wouldn't have Brady said, "were you not able to dunk into a bathroom or some room and stab them?"

 

 

Why would Brady have to text anything when he obviously had discussed this verbally. The text between the two ball boys makes that obvious. Didn't one of them say that Brady was furious ? 

[jvan1973]

ROFL ROFL ROFL

So, in other words , a ball can be doctored on the sideline, is that what you're saying ?

A trophy ball? Sure it can. Teams write on them all the time

[Bubbz]

Without the raw transcripts of the interviews or the full complement of text messages exchanged between McNally and Jastremski, it’s difficult to answer your questions. What we do know is Wells and the NFL purposely crafted their report to paint the Pats/Brady guilt. But I don't think it is a stretch that a guy who takes care of game day footballs for the Pats would have a nickname related to air pressure. I mean this is also the guy that refers to himself as Dorito Dink and also cussed Brady out in his text messages as well. There was a text message where McNally sees JJ on TV during a GB game and tells him to deflate and give him his jacket so this deflate term was used by them outside the context of footballs. My point being text messages can have other inferences than what Wells wanted them to convey which is some scheme to deflate footballs after inspection which is a HUGE stretch. Just like Brady giving them gifts for helping with game day preparations was also construed by Wells to be bribes to have them illegally deflate footballs when it is common practice for QBs to bestow gifts to their equipment guys.

Again, if the NFL is going to charge the Pats with an ONGOING scheme and penalize them as if they rigged the scoreboard, then there is a little more required than some text messages and a bathroom break. Like I said, if there was truly something going on, I can't believe something would not have turned up from Brady to these guys on their phones or the other Pats employees that Wells interviewed and obtained their phones.

There's also the air pressure measurements and destruction of evidence

[Bad Morty]

There's also the air pressure measurements and destruction of evidence

no evidence was destroyed. Fact.

[jvan1973]

no evidence was destroyed. Fact.

Phone destroyed, fact

[Bad Morty]

Phone destroyed, fact

all texts from phone made available and recoverable. Another phony NFL story. Can you believe how badly they bungled this? Lol...Brady is now a sympathetic figure again...Goodell ruined everything for the haters with his incompetence.

[jvan1973]

all texts from phone made available and recoverable. Another phony NFL story. Can you believe how badly they bungled this? Lol...Brady is now a sympathetic figure again...Goodell ruined everything for the haters with his incompetence.

As far as I heard the actual texts were never made availible, can you provide a link that says otherwise?

[Bad Morty]

As far as I heard the actual texts were never made availible, can you provide a link that says otherwise?

 

sure...glad to help... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/28/brady-offered-to-help-nfl-gather-missing-text-messages/

 

The coup de grâce came Tuesday morning, when the league leaked to ESPN that “Brady destroyed his cell phone,” locking in the notion that something sinister — and irreparable — had occurred. The press release announcing the decision likewise focused on the destruction of the cell phone, raising eyebrows from sea to shining sea and reinforcing for many the idea that Brady had something to hide, and that he tried to hide it.

But like the much longer Wells report, closer inspection of the Goodell decision undermines the primary conclusion. And, as usual, the Achilles heel can be found in a footnote.

Specifically, it can be found at footnote 11 on page 12: “After the hearing and after the submission of post-hearing briefs, Mr. Brady’s certified agents offered to provide a spreadsheet that would identify all of the individuals with whom Mr. Brady had exchanged text messages during [the relevant time] period; the agents suggested that the League could contact those individuals and request production of any relevant text messages that they retained. Aside from the fact that, under Article 46, Section 2(f) of the CBA, such information could and should have been provided long before the hearing, the approach suggested in the agents’ letter — which would require tracking down numerous individuals and seeking consent from each to retrieve from their cellphones detailed information about their text message communications during the relevant period — is simply not practical.”

[jvan1973]

sure...glad to help... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/28/brady-offered-to-help-nfl-gather-missing-text-messages/

The coup de grâce came Tuesday morning, when the league leaked to ESPN that “Brady destroyed his cell phone,” locking in the notion that something sinister — and irreparable — had occurred. The press release announcing the decision likewise focused on the destruction of the cell phone, raising eyebrows from sea to shining sea and reinforcing for many the idea that Brady had something to hide, and that he tried to hide it.

But like the much longer Wells report, closer inspection of the Goodell decision undermines the primary conclusion. And, as usual, the Achilles heel can be found in a footnote.

Specifically, it can be found at footnote 11 on page 12: “After the hearing and after the submission of post-hearing briefs, Mr. Brady’s certified agents offered to provide a spreadsheet that would identify all of the individuals with whom Mr. Brady had exchanged text messages during [the relevant time] period; the agents suggested that the League could contact those individuals and request production of any relevant text messages that they retained. Aside from the fact that, under Article 46, Section 2(f) of the CBA, such information could and should have been provided long before the hearing, the approach suggested in the agents’ letter — which would require tracking down numerous individuals and seeking consent from each to retrieve from their cellphones detailed information about their text message communications during the relevant period — is simply not practical.”

Yeah, giving them a list of numbers of which he communicated with is not providing the actual texts that were sent

[amfootball]

Why would Brady have to text anything when he obviously had discussed this verbally. The text between the two ball boys makes that obvious. Didn't one of them say that Brady was furious ? 

He texted precisely because there was no verbal agreement about any deflation scheme. Brady was furious that the balls were pumped up to 16 psi given it is the ball boys job to ensure the refs don't add air if the footballs are presented within the legal range. Again, that is why he told them to get the rulebook and let the refs know that 12.5-13.5 is the permissible range.  And also why McNally told JJ that the refs had screwed them as even he did know the ref pumped up to 16 until he gauged them himself after the game. That is how cavalier this psi range is treated by the refs. They don't even bother to re-gauge after adding air to ensure they do not go over 13.5 psi.

[HOZER]

Yeah, giving them a list of numbers of which he communicated with is not providing the actual texts that were sent

And 3 of them were missing.

[Bad Morty]

Yeah, giving them a list of numbers of which he communicated with is not providing the actual texts that were sent

nor is it hiding the texts from the league.

[Bad Morty]

And 3 of them were missing.

lol..yes THOSE must be the 3 texts where the scheme was revealed! That Brady...

[jvan1973]

nor is it hiding the texts from the league.

He didn't provide the texts.

[jvan1973]

He texted precisely because there was no verbal agreement about any deflation scheme. Brady was furious that the balls were pumped up to 16 psi given it is the ball boys job to ensure the refs don't add air if the footballs are presented within the legal range. Again, that is why he told them to get the rulebook and let the refs know that 12.5-13.5 is the permissible range. And also why McNally told JJ that the refs had screwed them as even he did know the ref pumped up to 16 until he gauged them himself after the game. That is how cavalier this psi range is treated by the refs. They don't even bother to re-gauge after adding air to ensure they do not go over 13.5 psi.

Allegedly

[Flying Elvis]

Looks good to me?

Ball #3 raises serious questions to the integrity of those numbers.

[Bubbz]

sure...glad to help... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/28/brady-offered-to-help-nfl-gather-missing-text-messages/

The coup de grâce came Tuesday morning, when the league leaked to ESPN that “Brady destroyed his cell phone,” locking in the notion that something sinister — and irreparable — had occurred. The press release announcing the decision likewise focused on the destruction of the cell phone, raising eyebrows from sea to shining sea and reinforcing for many the idea that Brady had something to hide, and that he tried to hide it.

But like the much longer Wells report, closer inspection of the Goodell decision undermines the primary conclusion. And, as usual, the Achilles heel can be found in a footnote.

Specifically, it can be found at footnote 11 on page 12: “After the hearing and after the submission of post-hearing briefs, Mr. Brady’s certified agents offered to provide a spreadsheet that would identify all of the individuals with whom Mr. Brady had exchanged text messages during [the relevant time] period; the agents suggested that the League could contact those individuals and request production of any relevant text messages that they retained. Aside from the fact that, under Article 46, Section 2(f) of the CBA, such information could and should have been provided long before the hearing, the approach suggested in the agents’ letter — which would require tracking down numerous individuals and seeking consent from each to retrieve from their cellphones detailed information about their text message communications during the relevant period — is simply not practical.”

Fail

[AndreRison]

Ok if Brady and the Patriots are innocent,

1. Why are the ball boys suspended?

2. Why did they say, no more interviews with McNally?

3. Why didn't Brady bring them to his appeal?

4. Why did McNally say he wasn't going to ESPN, yet?

5. Why did McNally take the balls into the bathroom?

6. Why did McNally sneak them out of the ref room?

7. Why would Brady be mad at McNally for not taking air out of a ball from the Jets game, after the refs put it at "16"?

8. Why did McNally try to put in a K ball?

9. Why were the balls PSI levels under, even what their own biased experimenters said the ideal gas law would put them at?

There is no way you can answer all of these questions and still logically conclude, this was some innocent mishap. People trying to explain all of this away cannot possibly believe what they are saying.

[AndreRison]

The best part of this whole thing;

The Colts notify the league to watch out for these shenanigans.

On the very game they notify the league, these imbeciles steal the balls, take them into a bathroom, and later try to put in a K ball....

How stupid can you be? That's why I'm shocked to be arguing with Patriot fans about what actually happened.

[our_dbs_rock]

Yeah, giving them a list of numbers of which he communicated with is not providing the actual texts that were sent

 

I like the fact that it was a spreadsheet they were submitting.  That can't be doctored at all.......  Was his phone bill destroyed?

[Bad Morty]

Ok if Brady and the Patriots are innocent,

1. Why are the ball boys suspended?

2. Why did they say, no more interviews with McNally?

3. Why didn't Brady bring them to his appeal?

4. Why did McNally say he wasn't going to ESPN, yet?

5. Why did McNally take the balls into the bathroom?

6. Why did McNally sneak them out of the ref room?

7. Why would Brady be mad at McNally for not taking air out of a ball from the Jets game, after the refs put it at "16"?

8. Why did McNally try to put in a K ball?

9. Why were the balls PSI levels under, even what their own biased experimenters said the ideal gas law would put them at?

There is no way you can answer all of these questions and still logically conclude, this was some innocent mishap. People trying to explain all of this away cannot possibly believe what they are saying.

great questions..here's one for you - are you a little bummed out that the national media put down their pitchforks and have instead begun blaming the NFL for this?

[crazycolt1]

great questions..here's one for you - are you a little bummed out that the national media put down their pitchforks and have instead begun blaming the NFL for this?

Because media sells.

[ViriLudant]

Ok if Brady and the Patriots are innocent,

1. Why are the ball boys suspended?

2. Why did they say, no more interviews with McNally?

3. Why didn't Brady bring them to his appeal?

4. Why did McNally say he wasn't going to ESPN, yet?

5. Why did McNally take the balls into the bathroom?

6. Why did McNally sneak them out of the ref room?

7. Why would Brady be mad at McNally for not taking air out of a ball from the Jets game, after the refs put it at "16"?

8. Why did McNally try to put in a K ball?

9. Why were the balls PSI levels under, even what their own biased experimenters said the ideal gas law would put them at?

There is no way you can answer all of these questions and still logically conclude, this was some innocent mishap. People trying to explain all of this away cannot possibly believe what they are saying.

Someone clearly hasn't read any of the NFLPA documents . Most of these were answered already .

[crazycolt1]

Someone clearly hasn't read any of the NFLPA documents . Most of these were answered already .

Most is not all last time I checked.

[ColtsBlueFL]

The best thing to come from this?  No more ball shenanigans.

 

■ Before the game, the referee will designate two members of the officiating crew to inspect the balls pregame. The officials will number the balls 1-12, and record all PSI data. Previously, the balls were not numbered, the data was not recorded, and only one member of the officiating crew inspected the footballs.

 

■ The footballs still need to measure between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI. If a ball comes in above or below those numbers, it will be adjusted to 13.0 PSI.

 

■  The “kicking ball coordinator” at each game, who previously only handled the six “k balls,” will now take custody of all footballs once they have been approved by the officials, and maintain control of the footballs until 10 minutes before kickoff. The coordinator, a member of the officiating crew, and a security representative will bring the 24 approved game footballs (12 for each team) to the on-field replay station, at which point the footballs will be distributed to each team, in the presence of the league security personnel. The 24 backup footballs (12 for each team) will remain secured in the officials’ locker room.

 

■ The NFL will designate random games in which to test the football PSI at halftime and after the game. The kicking ball coordinator will collect the footballs from both teams at halftime, will be escorted to the locker room by the league’s security personnel, will measure and record the PSI of all 24 footballs, and then remove the footballs from play. The 24 backup footballs will then be used in the second half.

 

■ At the end of each randomly selected game, the kicking ball coordinator will again inspect all game balls from each team and record the results. All recorded information will be reported back to the league office.

 

This can not happen again, and this Rule overreaction by the NFL aims to keep it from being an issue anymore.  By this time next year, enough data will have  been collected to determine if ball tampering occurred or not.  So no matter what happens in the next few weeks, it really isn't truly over, until after the season.

[Gramz]

I've asked before, and I don't think I ever got an answer. How many rules have been changed because of something, directly associated with something Tom Brady and the Patriots have done?

[dynasty13]

Common sense would make it hard to believe that an equipment man that Brady just knew by his nickname (Deflator) would receive "gifts" such as that. Not to mention why would Brady ask how is he holding up in the known text messages. The 'going to ESPN" comment alone shows smoke. There old saying where there is smoke there is fire always holds true.

 

See, this is the stuff that drives me crazy...when someone gets the simplest of details wrong in their case to try and 'prove' something.

 

You are confusing who Jastremski is and who McNally is. Brady knew Jastresmki and he was the one that Brady texted about how he was holding up. McNally was the one that Brady only knew by nickname...not the self given deflator nickname...but by the nickname 'Bird' that he was known by in the locker room. That is why when he was asked if he knew who Jim McNally was, he said no. Brady would recognize him, sure, but he didn't know his real name and why would he? Brady doesn't deal directly with him, only with Jastremski. 

[pgt_rob]

Lets just end this crap. I'm ready for football.

[Yehoodi]

The best thing to come from this?  No more ball shenanigans.

 

 

■ The NFL will designate random games in which to test the football PSI at halftime and after the game. The kicking ball coordinator will collect the footballs from both teams at halftime, will be escorted to the locker room by the league’s security personnel, will measure and record the PSI of all 24 footballs, and then remove the footballs from play. The 24 backup footballs will then be used in the second half.

 

 

For me the NFL needs to be transparent.  For this year, the NFL needs to check all of the balls in all of the games, record the numbers and each week distribute the numbers.  It needs to be found out if there are things outside of the natural effects on the balls that might cause the balls to loose air and/or whether or not present science can determine everything folks think they know effects the balls.  We need to see the effect of ordinary wear and tear on the balls, the effect of temperature, the effect of water, and so on.  Then we can get a truer idea of what happened in January.  For me, if I were the NFL, I would of waited till the end of the year and see how the tests come out before coming to a conclusion on the matter.  

 

Indeed, in June when I had time to look over the Wells Reports and its tests I found out that the colts balls corresponding so make many of the pats balls innocent, assuming one uses the colts balls as a control group that was not altered by human hands.  For this and other reasons, is why I wished this was shelved till next spring.    

[ColtsBlueFL]

For me the NFL needs to be transparent.  For this year, the NFL needs to check all of the balls in all of the games, record the numbers and each week distribute the numbers.  It needs to be found out if there are things outside of the natural effects on the balls that might cause the balls to loose air and/or whether or not present science can determine everything folks think they know effects the balls.  We need to see the effect of ordinary wear and tear on the balls, the effect of temperature, the effect of water, and so on.  Then we can get a truer idea of what happened in January.  For me, if I were the NFL, I would of waited till the end of the year and see how the tests come out before coming to a conclusion on the matter.  

 

Indeed, in June when I had time to look over the Wells Reports and its tests I found out that the colts balls corresponding so make many of the pats balls innocent, assuming one uses the colts balls as a control group that was not altered by human hands.  For this and other reasons, is why I wished this was shelved till next spring.    

 

Refs will have complete control of the balls right up to start of the game, where K ball group/NFL Ops takes over.  No more home team locker room attendants.

 

I recently heard that at any time during the game, including half time, any ball measuring below 12.5 psi will be recorded and re-inflated to 13.0 psi. You bet the NFL will record time, temp, barometric pressure, wind speed, and relative humidity as well. Those cold and wet/snowy days ought to be fun now...

[Bad Morty]

Refs will have complete control of the balls right up to start of the game, where K ball group/NFL Ops takes over.  No more home team locker room attendants.

 

I recently heard that at any time during the game, including half time, any ball measuring below 12.5 psi will be recorded and re-inflated to 13.0 psi. You bet the NFL will record time, temp, barometric pressure, wind speed, and relative humidity as well. Those cold and wet/snowy days ought to be fun now...

this will change everything...lol...leave it to the NFL