DeflateGate: Brady suspension expected (mega merge / updated)

[Gramz]

Honestly Superman, I don't care. I think the Pats could have done something and maybe for a long time back to 2006 BUT this whole thing has been the height of ridiculous. Remember we are talking about air pressure. A 25k fine by the book. And we have a title game played with what might have been non-compliant balls in which the refs were giving a heads up by Grigson the day before. Inexcusable. I am sorry. Inexcusable. Then this ridiculous 200+ page report (Ray Rice report was 95 pages btw) 100 days later. 100 days. And what we get is we think, probably, might have been aware... and then the ridiculous handling of the balls and the inconsistent gauging ... this is a complete joke. I do feel bad for Colts fans as I think you were robbed of a fair first half and that is the league's fault for not gauging before kick-off. And it stinks for the Pats because this report is bogus ...

You may be talking about air pressure,  but there is more going on here than just air pressure.   And I believe, deep down,  you know that.

 

We're talking about rules,  we're talking about lying and deception, and we're talking about non-compliance.   We're talking about paying someone off with gifts for breaking the rules for a competitive advantage.

[21isSuperman]

Also a disadvantage in terms of velocity and distance. A higher inflated ball with travel faster and farther than a deflated one ...

There are actually several factors to it.  It would depend on how the ball is shaped when it's inflated or deflated.  Over-inflation could result in a warped shape that makes the object less aerodynamic and creates more drag.  Deflating it slightly could result in a more aerodynamic projectile.  Deflating the ball also provides better grip, allowing you to throw it farther.

[amfootball]

There are actually several factors to it.  It would depend on how the ball is shaped when it's inflated or deflated.  Over-inflation could result in a warped shape that makes the object less aerodynamic and creates more drag.  Deflating it slightly could result in a more aerodynamic projectile.  Deflating the ball also provides better grip, allowing you to throw it farther.

It is preference. Aaron Rodgers said that back in Nov. He said half the QBs in the league like it underinflated and the other half overinflated. There are pros and cons to both.

[corgi]

 

 

 

 

Wow. I am surprised by this statement from you. The league was given a heads up about the Pats and the air pressure and did nothing until half time of a title game. If you are fine with that than I guess our discussion is over.

 

It's called a sting, the police do that to drug dellers and criminals all the time.

[jvan1973]

Wow. I am surprised by this statement from you. The league was given a heads up about the Pats and the air pressure and did nothing until half time of a title game. If you are fine with that than I guess our discussion is over.

I guess expecting a professional NFL team to play by the rules is heresy in patriots land. Tom had the balls,altered, he is to blame.

[amfootball]

I guess expecting a professional NFL team to play by the rules is heresy in patriots land. Tom had the balls,altered, he is to blame.

You are missing the point. The game did not need to be compromised and the investigation could have been avoided if they just gauged the Pats balls before kick-off ... instead we get might have, could have , probably, most likely ...

[radiogirl]

I am not trying to convince. Just sharing what is being reported now that folks have had time to actually read the report. It is obvious it has more holes than swiss cheese .....

What you share is always slanted that there was no wrong doing.  The NFL wouldn't have spent the time and money they did on this if they didn't have very strong convictions that something shady happened.  There are a few things Brady did that have come out that are slimy in the least. Lying about not knowing about the deflation, knowing the two involved, riding on his high horse to his mountain of righteousness.  I completely agree with Girlzarefanstoo that a little humility in light of recent findings would go along way.....

[csmopar]

 

 

yep...pretty much sum it up right there.

[21isSuperman]

It is preference. Aaron Rodgers said that back in Nov. He said half the QBs in the league like it underinflated and the other half overinflated. There are pros and cons to both.

Right, but that's within the rules.  The league doesn't say it has to be exactly 12.500000 psi.  They say 12.5 to 13.5, so players have some range.  Even if Rodgers says that, we have no proof.  On the other hand, we have quite a lot of evidence against Brady, which suggests he went out of his way to break the rules.

[csmopar]

You are missing the point. The game did not need to be compromised and the investigation could have been avoided if they just gauged the Pats balls before kick-off ... instead we get might have, could have , probably, most likely ...

 

 

just stop.  You are blaming the league and IGNORING the facts that the Pats deliberately deflated the balls.  Man, what is in the water up there....

[Superman]

Wow. I am surprised by this statement from you. The league was given a heads up about the Pats and the air pressure and did nothing until half time of a title game. If you are fine with that than I guess our discussion is over.

 

So you're more upset that league tried to catch the Pats cheating than that the Pats cheated to begin with?

 

How about this? Don't cheat and none of this ever happens?

[radiogirl]

Guys - I think we've given AMfootball enough attention here.  I'm stepping away.  

 

1.  She doesn't listen to or respond to valid, logical or legal points.

2.  She is looking for attention so personally I won't give it to her any more.

3.  I feel sad for her...

Good idea.  Back to your lives, citizens.....

[Flash7]

 

 

 

 

Wow. I am surprised by this statement from you. The league was given a heads up about the Pats and the air pressure and did nothing until half time of a title game. If you are fine with that than I guess our discussion is over.

 

Just jumping in here, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the game balls were checked before the game. They were then tampered with by the Patriots. At halftime, they were re-checked and found to be under-inflated.

 

So if the league was given a heads-up, what else should they have done? They checked the pressure of the game balls at the beginning of the game and at halftime and found them under-inflated. This sounds like a reasonable approach.

[PeterBowman]

just stop. You are blaming the league and IGNORING the facts that the Pats deliberately deflated the balls. Man, what is in the water up there....

Denial's not just a river un Egypt....its a river in Boston

[Jason_]

You are missing the point. The game did not need to be compromised and the investigation could have been avoided if they just gauged the Pats balls before kick-off ... instead we get might have, could have , probably, most likely ...

 

No, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.  had Brady not had to cheat in the first place then the game would not have been compromised.  You're blaming absolutely everyone you can except for the actual guilty parties. 

[Superman]

It's called a sting, the police do that to drug dellers and criminals all the time.

 

People keep calling it a sting; it's not. A sting involves using deception to catch someone doing something wrong. All the league did was check the air pressure of the Patriots footballs. Just because they didn't tell them they'd do that beforehand doesn't make it a sting. 

[ColtsSouljah]

I am amazed (or maybe not) that certain pats fans insist the evidence is not "incontrovertible" and that somehow means the report is bogus. The language used in the report is the STANDARD LANGUAGE THE LEAGUE USES TO SAY "GUILTY." It is not "waffling" as AM keeps claiming. This is the terminology the league uses as standard.

Apparently, to some of you, there has to be a video recording or admission of guilt. THAT'S NOT HOW THINGS WORK. Aaron Hernandez is going to JAIL FOR LIFE and it's ALL "circumstantial" evidence.

Circumstantial or "not incontrovertible" or whatever you want to call it.... in now way weakens it. They have been found guilty.

[Superman]

So if the league was given a heads-up, what else should they have done? They checked the pressure of the game balls at the beginning of the game and at halftime and found them under-inflated. This sounds like a reasonable approach.

 

It is reasonable. Because if all the Pats footballs were found to be in compliance, that's likely the end of this. Instead, NONE of their footballs were in compliance at halftime, by any reading. 

[Happy2BeHere]

People keep calling it a sting; it's not. A sting involves using deception to catch someone doing something wrong. All the league did was check the air pressure of the Patriots footballs. Just because they didn't tell them they'd do that beforehand doesn't make it a sting. 

 

Sting (the musician) that's what they meant...terrible misunderstanding there

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

You are missing the point. The game did not need to be compromised and the investigation could have been avoided if they just gauged the Pats balls before kick-off ... instead we get might have, could have , probably, most likely ...

 

The NFL should have checked air pressure yes because they were informed prior to the game , However that is not a valid excuse for cheating & lying about it .

 

You are in the Clinton Wing of the Twilight Zone now ..

[DoubleE Colt]

Given that the balls were tested before the game and deemed acceptable what was meant to be the next course of action for the league to prevent this happening? Are we suggesting that should have outright told the Pats not to deflate the balls?

Wow. I am surprised by this statement from you. The league was given a heads up about the Pats and the air pressure and did nothing until half time of a title game. If you are fine with that than I guess our discussion is over.

[dynasty13]

Yes, tip off the cheaters so they won't get caught. That doesn't make any sense. The FBI allow some crimes to happen that they have been tipped off about so they can catch the criminals red handed. That's exactly what happened in this case.

 

Let's talk about this for a second.

 

You're saying the NFL was less concerned about the integrity of the game than it was in catching the Patriots? If it's all about the integrity of the game, then why is it ok with any of you that the NFL allowed the entire first half of the AFC Championship Game to be played with the Patriots having an unfair advantage? 

 

Just trying to follow the logic here...

[21isSuperman]

You are missing the point. The game did not need to be compromised and the investigation could have been avoided if they just gauged the Pats balls before kick-off ... instead we get might have, could have , probably, most likely ...

...if the Patriots actually played by the rules instead of cheating their way to tainted victories/

 

Also, I want to clear this up.  Many people, notably Pats fans, are making a huge deal about how the Wells report doesn't say anything for sure.  If you read many scientific articles, they do the same thing.  For example, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change writes a report every few years regarding anthropogenic climate change.  In their most recent one, they wrote "It is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of observed warming since 1950".  Note how they don't say humans are responsible for sure.  To prove causation, you need multiple trials and randomized assignment of subjects.  However, given the evidence they have, they say it's extremely likely.  Analogously, Wells is saying that he doesn't know 100% for sure if Brady did it, but there is a lot of evidence suggesting he did, and to reject that evidence would mean you'd have to accept multiple coincidences of very small probability.  This type of language (ie. very likely, more probably than not, extremely likely) is very commonly used in many professional settings.  It's just Pats fans and Pats homers that are trying to find anything to discredit the report.  Unfortunately for them, they just show their own ignorance by doing so

[21isSuperman]

Good idea.  Back to your lives, citizens.....

This forum is my life!!!

 

 

I'm so lonely

[dw49]

DW, this whole thing back in Jan. and then the 4 ridiculous months ... and now with this report with more waffling language than Brian Williams is a joke ... a complete joke.

 

 

Am.. it might be a poorly  written document , I didn't read it. Bottom line is it happened. You can't have equipment guys sneaking footballs into bathroom and deflating them. He could have taken a different path on this in that January presser. He chose the path he took. He is now caught up in an obvious lie. 

 

Your take seems to be on how stupid the long investigation was. Fine call it stupid.. doesn't really change anything. Brady , the NE Pat team and fans now need to buck up and take whatever punishment is handed out. Maybe it will be minimal ? Maybe it will be excessive. If it is , I would say "geezzz" , I guess you should have told the truth. But there's nothing wrong with appealing and getting a 4 game suspension down to 1 or 2. It's all part of the process and I would have no problem.

 

What I d have problem with is NE fans , Kraft and so far Bray's attorney (that;s his job so not so much here) calling the investigation unfair , biased .. bla bla bla. 

 

 

God... you all need to buck up and be upset with the unnecessary cheating and subsequent whining rather than the "nature " or "quality" of the report.

[ColtsSouljah]

...if the Patriots actually played by the rules instead of cheating their way to tainted victories/

 

Also, I want to clear this up.  Many people, notably Pats fans, are making a huge deal about how the Wells report doesn't say anything for sure.  If you read many scientific articles, they do the same thing.  For example, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change writes a report every few years regarding anthropogenic climate change.  In their most recent one, they wrote "It is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of observed warming since 1950".  Note how they don't say humans are responsible for sure.  To prove causation, you need multiple trials and randomized assignment of subjects.  However, given the evidence they have, they say it's extremely likely.  Analogously, Wells is saying that he doesn't know 100% for sure if Brady did it, but there is a lot of evidence suggesting he did, and to reject that evidence would mean you'd have to accept multiple coincidences of very small probability.  This type of language (ie. very likely, more probably than not, extremely likely) is very commonly used in many professional settings.  It's just Pats fans and Pats homers that are trying to find anything to discredit the report.  Unfortunately for them, they just show their own ignorance by doing so

 

And as I've been trying to point out several times, such things in no way lessen ruling of "guilty." This happens ALL THE TIME in our legal system.

[radiogirl]

This forum is my life!!!

 

 

I'm so lonely

 

This forum is my life!!!

 

 

I'm so lonely

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!  

[Happy2BeHere]

Let's talk about this for a second.

 

You're saying the NFL was less concerned about the integrity of the game than it was in catching the Patriots? If it's all about the integrity of the game, then why is it ok with any of you that the NFL allowed the entire first half of the AFC Championship Game to be played with the Patriots having an unfair advantage? 

 

Just trying to follow the logic here...

 

I don't understand....the balls were all tested before the game right? Walt Anderson DID in-fact do a pre-game inspection with a gauge during pre-game.

 

"» The Patriots ball intercepted by the Colts was not among the eleven Patriots balls tested. Each official used a separate air pressure gauge provided by referee Anderson that Anderson had brought with him to the game, one of which also had been used by Anderson for his pre-game inspection. Each of the 11 Patriots balls tested at halftime measured below the minimum 12.5 psi level established by the Playing Rules on both gauges. Each of the four Colts balls tested measured within the permissible 12.5 to 13.5 psi range on at least one of the gauges. The measurements were recorded in writing by Richard Farley, an NFL security official who has been assigned to the Patriots and Gillette Stadium for approximately twelve years. Only four Colts balls were tested because the officials were running out of time before the start of the second half."

[aaron11]

Also a disadvantage in terms of velocity and distance. A higher inflated ball with travel faster and farther than a deflated one ...

the patriots have by far the fewest fumbles over the past few seasons.  coincidence or cheating?? makes you wonder

[Superman]

...if the Patriots actually played by the rules instead of cheating their way to tainted victories/

 

Also, I want to clear this up.  Many people, notably Pats fans, are making a huge deal about how the Wells report doesn't say anything for sure.  If you read many scientific articles, they do the same thing.  For example, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change writes a report every few years regarding anthropogenic climate change.  In their most recent one, they wrote "It is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of observed warming since 1950".  Note how they don't say humans are responsible for sure.  To prove causation, you need multiple trials and randomized assignment of subjects.  However, given the evidence they have, they say it's extremely likely.  Analogously, Wells is saying that he doesn't know 100% for sure if Brady did it, but there is a lot of evidence suggesting he did, and to reject that evidence would mean you'd have to accept multiple coincidences of very small probability.  This type of language (ie. very likely, more probably than not, extremely likely) is very commonly used in many professional settings.  It's just Pats fans and Pats homers that are trying to find anything to discredit the report.  Unfortunately for them, they just show their own ignorance by doing so

 

I think some of us watched too much Matlock growing up, and think every time someone does something wrong it comes out in a dramatic confession in a crowded courtroom.

 

The truth is that the legal system relies on statements like "more probable than not" to determine guilt and liability all of the time. This involves criminal proceedings and especially civil proceedings, which often end with one party being ordered to rectify the situation and/or pay the damaged party considerable sums of money. 

 

"More probable than not" doesn't mean "eh, they can't prove it, I guess there's nothing to talk about."

[Flash7]

Am.. it might be a poorly  written document , I didn't read it. Bottom line is it happened. You can't have equipment guys sneaking footballs into bathroom and deflating them. He could have taken a different path on this in that January presser. He chose the path he took. He is now caught up in an obvious lie. 

 

Your take seems to be on how stupid the long investigation was. Fine call it stupid.. doesn't really change anything. Brady , the NE Pat team and fans now need to buck up and take whatever punishment is handed out. Maybe it will be minimal ? Maybe it will be excessive. If it is , I would say "geezzz" , I guess you should have told the truth. But there's nothing wrong with appealing and getting a 4 game suspension down to 1 or 2. It's all part of the process and I would have no problem.

 

What I d have problem with is NE fans , Kraft and so far Bray's attorney (that;s his job so not so much here) calling the investigation unfair , biased .. bla bla bla. 

 

 

God... you all need to buck up and be upset with the unnecessary cheating and subsequent whining rather than the "nature " or "quality" of the report.

I'm actually okay with all of the Patriots fans being upset with this. It's fine that they call the report stupid, etc...

 

It will all just hurt them more when the punishment is handed out. And we will all sit back and rejoice. 

[GoPats]

There are actually several factors to it.  It would depend on how the ball is shaped when it's inflated or deflated.  Over-inflation could result in a warped shape that makes the object less aerodynamic and creates more drag.  Deflating it slightly could result in a more aerodynamic projectile.  Deflating the ball also provides better grip, allowing you to throw it farther.

 

There was an ESPN Sports Science thing on this right after the story broke, but it was taken down a day or two later. They determined that a ball at 11.5 PSI (vs 12.5) would have 1.8% increased grip strength. They also did mention that a deflated ball loses velocity. They didn't note the variables that you did, but FWIW... 

 

The level of advantage it would have given NE is moot at this point anyway. So don't get me wrong. 

[Superman]

Let's talk about this for a second.

 

You're saying the NFL was less concerned about the integrity of the game than it was in catching the Patriots? If it's all about the integrity of the game, then why is it ok with any of you that the NFL allowed the entire first half of the AFC Championship Game to be played with the Patriots having an unfair advantage? 

 

Just trying to follow the logic here...

 

The findings in the Wells report suggest that this is something that's happened for a long time. One of the guys calls himself "the deflator" in May 2014. The email from the Colts said 'it's known around the league' that the Pats do this. 

 

So yes, this was bigger than a one game issue. Having an opportunity to test the Patriots' footballs without them knowing they were going to be tested was critical.

[aaron11]

The level of advantage it would have given NE is moot at this point anyway. So don't get me wrong. 

 

 

the patriots have by far the fewest fumbles over the past few seasons.  coincidence or cheating?? makes you wonder

[21isSuperman]

I think some of us watched too much Matlock growing up, and think every time someone does something wrong it comes out in a dramatic confession in a crowded courtroom.

 

The truth is that the legal system relies on statements like "more probable than not" to determine guilt and liability all of the time. This involves criminal proceedings and especially civil proceedings, which often end with one party being ordered to rectify the situation and/or pay the damaged party considerable sums of money. 

 

"More probable than not" doesn't mean "eh, they can't prove it, I guess there's nothing to talk about."

Yep.  It's very commonly used in the professional world by lawyers, researchers, governments, etc.

 

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!  

You laugh........but it's true

[jvan1973]

Let's talk about this for a second.

You're saying the NFL was less concerned about the integrity of the game than it was in catching the Patriots? If it's all about the integrity of the game, then why is it ok with any of you that the NFL allowed the entire first half of the AFC Championship Game to be played with the Patriots having an unfair advantage?

Just trying to follow the logic here...

The balls were checked pre game. They were again checked at halftime. When would you have suggested they tested them? Is it to much ask the patriots to play by the rules?

[21isSuperman]

There was an ESPN Sports Science thing on this right after the story broke, but it was taken down a day or two later. They determined that a ball at 11.5 PSI (vs 12.5) would have 1.8% increased grip strength. They also did mention that a deflated ball loses velocity. They didn't note the variables that you did, but FWIW... 

 

The level of advantage it would have given NE is moot at this point anyway. So don't get me wrong. 

For what it's worth, I find ESPN Sports Science to actually be highly unscientific.  They just like to throw numbers out there and compare them to things the average person can relate to.  "Ray Lewis can tackle with a force of 1500 lbs!!  That's the weight of a rhino!!"  But they don't mention other players at the same position, other players at other positions, other athletes, average people, etc.  I didn't watch the clip, so I can't say anything for certain.  But their history shows me their work has a lot of holes in it and is far from really being scientific.

[dgambill]

29 pages and counting.....just shake my head. I wish people were this passionate about matters that have some real importance. It is what it is. The league could have squashed this by just telling the Pats to knock it off...but they decided to bust them instead. Brady wouldn't have had his integrity called into question by simply playing the game the way it was suppose to. This is such a minor thing but its a bigger offense because of the cover up etc...and then on top we all have to have the lynch mob mentality of "getting" the Patriots....or "getting" Brady. This isn't going to affect his legacy but yes its a black eye on him personally because he had 3 chances to do the right thing...firstly not do it (or stop it)...secondly admit to it...and thirdly cooperate with the investigation. I'm not going to get in here in and make a big deal about what should be done etc. If Brady misses the ring ceremony on opening day I'm sure that is punishment enough because I don't want to get into what if scenerios....point was the games were played and the Pats beat ALL comers. They are the Champs...Brady is a 4 time SB champion and nothing is going to change that...or should. I understand teams feelings of wanting to play on an even playing field and that wasn't the case but fact is sports aren't really an even playing field. It's not played in a vaccum...so you just have to overcome some adversity or make the plays to become a champion....ala Tom Brady and Butler did in the SB. Its a dissappointing situation...to what I would say has been a really good guy. We fall...we all do....now lets hope he gets up!

[Surge89]

Let's talk about this for a second.

 

You're saying the NFL was less concerned about the integrity of the game than it was in catching the Patriots? If it's all about the integrity of the game, then why is it ok with any of you that the NFL allowed the entire first half of the AFC Championship Game to be played with the Patriots having an unfair advantage? 

 

Just trying to follow the logic here...

 

I can't talk for the poster you quote but imo you are trying to turn the viewpoint around.  This has nothing to do with maintaining integrity from the NFL's side at that point.  The NFL WILL NOT ACCUSE WITHOUT PROOF.  There is no reason for them to go up to the Patriots org and say hey quit your crap when it is just one OPPOSING GM that is making the accusations. 

 

Innocent until proven guilty.  It actually exists.  And has nothing to with keeping the integrity of the game but all about keeping the integrity between employee and employer (well kinda... they have a weird relationship when we talk about league and team).

[21isSuperman]

The balls were checked pre game. They were again checked at halftime. When would you have suggested they tested them? Is it to much ask the patriots to play by the rules?

This is what I find hilarious.  They are in trouble for cheating and the Pats fans/homers are still denying it and saying the league messed up.  The report was pretty sure in saying Brady cheated.  It's like the Pats can't be bothered to play fairly.