Is the verdict out on Werner yet? (Mega Merge)

[Reddog]

I wouldn't say everyone agrees with you.

 

Where do you get this idea that a pass rusher, let alone one converting position who missed a significant chunk off his rookie season must suddenly explode into epic like production by the 3rd game of the season. Maybe because we're obviously blessed with so many pass rushers that they can't afford to double Werner...oh no wait that's exactly what has been happening. 

 

Not saying by any means Werner is the 2nd coming of LT, but he's getting a rough ride, especially by those saying there's been no progression. 

 

Little fun... guess the players from the stat lines

 

             Player A Player B

Tackles     17           18 

Sacks        3.5         2.5 

P/D            1            4  

40 time      4.72      4.81

Weight       246       266

When you compare Werner with Mathis you are the loser... numbers are meaningless when you have visual evidence.  Steel, you know that too, Mathis is superior.  Although Parcells is the master to me, although I have talked to players that hate him, Werner is at best a 3rd round pick. From the same GM that gave up a first for Trent.  Although I think the Colts have done a good job in the post Manning era, they have made some bad calls that were predictable.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Ich muss Sie brechen

 

Hoosier Translation

 

“In my sentences I go where no man has gone before… I am a boon to the English language.”

[NewEra]

When you compare Werner with Mathis you are the loser... numbers are meaningless when you have visual evidence. Steel, you know that too, Mathis is superior. Although Parcells is the master to me, although I have talked to players that hate him, Werner is at best a 3rd round pick. From the same GM that gave up a first for Trent. Although I think the Colts have done a good job in the post Manning era, they have made some bad calls that were predictable.

You failed to see his point. That's their #'s in their rookie season. Translation, to early to judge.

But be my guest, judge away. Heck lets go ahead and call him a bust 3 games into his second year. That's how people roll around here.

[Gavin]

Exactly. Luck dodges a pass rusher, and it's all about how great he is at eluding pressure. Bortles dodges a pass rusher, and it's about how our guy blew an "easy play."

If anything that is a prime example of Werners lack of starting and stopping speed at times that his scouting report says though, I think that can be a matter of better footwork....I don't think it will solve it completely but in my opinion it would help, If you noticed when Bortles turned back the opposite way of Werner (who had him dead to rights mind you I believe with better footwork) Werner did not plant and push off with that left foot well, He also did not appear to plant that right foot well to stop his momentum

[BOTT]

Like Jason said, I'd have to re watch the first two games. But as far as the jags game he was double teamed most of the time. And him dropping back in coverage tells me he is better than walden at it. They also dropped him back in the ILB spot so I think it was Jackson could blitz.

He was doubled a couple times, that's about it.

[NewEra]

He was doubled a couple times, that's about it.

Yeah you're right. They must have just been running those on a loop ;)

[ztboiler]

Worst case scenario, barring injury, is we move him to Sam full time, which is fine. And then we find someone else to play the Rush spot. Might already be Newsome, but we're still a long way from being able to determine that. My point is that even if he's not the Rush backer we hope he can be, he's still going to be a good contributor. It's not going to be boom or bust with Werner.

He does look more like a Sam as time goes along, but Walden is looking like a guy that may become tough to outplay.  Walden is endanger of outplaying that $4M/year contract right now.  I do think that Werner will become a better rusher than Walden in time, he will learn to convert speed to power, and I'm pleasantly surprised by how he looks in coverage drops thus far.

[Gavin]

Yeah you're right. They must have just been running those on a loop ;)

He was chipped twice in the Jags game, He is playing much faster this year however and came within a step or two of several sacks on the QB's for Jax beating both Tackles consistently

 

he does have to learn how to better use his hands, He actually was a huge factor in Quarles getting his sack, He also had 1 sack negated do to a Vontae Davis Illegal Contact penalty.......Which going by the All 22 view and not having rewatched the game on DVR I think was a missed call

[Jason_]

Yeah you're right. They must have just been running those on a loop ;)

On one drive when the jags were backed up near their own goalline, I saw werner get doubled at least twice just within the first few plays on that drive.

[Gavin]

On one drive when the jags were backed up near their own goalline, I saw werner get doubled at least twice just within the first few plays on that drive.

He was chipped twice in that game, Never doubled other then that, He played many less snaps in the second half then he did the first as well,

[Jason_]

He was chipped twice in that game, Never doubled other then that, He played many less snaps in the second half then he did the first as well,

Maybe we have different interpretations of what being double teamed means

[Superman]

If anything that is a prime example of Werners lack of starting and stopping speed at times that his scouting report says though, I think that can be a matter of better footwork....I don't think it will solve it completely but in my opinion it would help, If you noticed when Bortles turned back the opposite way of Werner (who had him dead to rights mind you I believe with better footwork) Werner did not plant and push off with that left foot well, He also did not appear to plant that right foot well to stop his momentum

 

No it's not. Not unless you're comparing Werner to some of the best athletes in the game. We all know he doesn't have the bend and agility that guys like Mathis have. We know he doesn't have the change of direction that Von Miller has. 

 

And again, when you see Luck evade the Jags rusher, we don't talk about how that guy lacks starting and stopping speed and needs better footwork. It's a good play by the QB, one that good QBs with quick feet make sometimes. The QB deserves credit. We don't have to nitpick the rusher for not being one of the very elite athletes in the game.

[Gavin]

No it's not. Not unless you're comparing Werner to some of the best athletes in the game. We all know he doesn't have the bend and agility that guys like Mathis have. We know he doesn't have the change of direction that Von Miller has. 

 

And again, when you see Luck evade the Jags rusher, we don't talk about how that guy lacks starting and stopping speed and needs better footwork. It's a good play by the QB, one that good QBs with quick feet make sometimes. The QB deserves credit. We don't have to nitpick the rusher for not being one of the very elite athletes in the game.

I think you missed the point of my post, It wasn't to condemn Werner, I wasn't comparing Werner to anyone

[Gavin]

Maybe we have different interpretations of what being double teamed means

Maybe but Im pretty sure I know what 2 offensive players look like to defend 1 defensive player though it can come in a variety of ways the concept is always the same

[superrep1967]

Werner may inherit Waldens spot in a year or two. We need to draft or sign another pass rusher, someone to replace the athleticism of Mathis when he retires or misses the year due to injury.

That's exactly what I've been saying. But free agency might be a better option.

[Superman]

I think you missed the point of my post, It wasn't to condemn Werner, I wasn't comparing Werner to anyone

 

Fair enough.

[Buck Showalter]

Ich muss Sie brechen

I must break you? Or Im gonna puke on you???

& would you really use the formal form in this case???

Ha...

[BlueShoe]

I must break you? Or Im gonna puke on you???

& would you really use the formal form in this case???

Ha...

 

LOL. I used Google Translate.

 

I must break you. ;)

[Quallenregen]

hehe, we writhe and writhe an no one here have an answer what Manuski let play...

 

we have 2 deception sacks today...

 

The defense looks good and nobody have a plan why.....

 

The defense package make a good job,with Werner, Newsome,Walden... Sacks are overrated.

[ruksak]

I'm calling him "POP Werner", cuz he gets schooled every week. 

[wesd2890]

Lol pop werner thats great.. another week and he got one tackle and no sacks.. im seeing a trend.. how does a linebacker only get to tackles in two games. D jackson has 18

[Jason_]

Lol pop werner thats great.. another week and he got one tackle and no sacks.. im seeing a trend.. how does a linebacker only get to tackles in two games. D jackson has 18

 

why are you comparing number of tackles between Werner (an OLB) and D Jackson (an ILB).  You know they have very different responsibilities, right?

[wesd2890]

Yeah they have different responsibilitys but hes still in coverage, playin run game and goin after the qb. Therefore theyre asked to alot of the same stuff.. fact of the matter is, is he is awful

[Jason_]

Yeah they have different responsibilitys but hes still in coverage, playin run game and goin after the qb. Therefore theyre asked to alot of the same stuff.. fact of the matter is, is he is awful

 

1. Yes, Werner does play in coverage and play the run, but the ILBs will always (or at least should) have more tackles than OLBs in a 3-4.  

2. Fact of the matter.....he's not awful by any stretch.  He hasn't gotten any sacks yet but he's getting pressure and has to be accounted for.  He's been playing the run well and has improved in coverage.

[pgt_rob]

He either looked slow yesterday or made Whitehurst look like RG3 when running.

[wesd2890]

Lol.. he is slow.. how do you say hes playing the run well?.. he hasnt tackled anyone!.. how is he playing well and not makin any stops. Or playin well in coverage?.. no passes defense.. once again 8 tackles in 4 games.. or rushing the passer.. well that just speaks for its self zero sacks. All im sayin is you guys are making it look like hes playin great. When actually hes at the bottom of the league for line backers. You guys think i just hate the kid. When actually i dont. Hes on my favorite football team, of course i want him to do good. The title of the form is, is the verdict out on him.. and i have been saying yes so far it is

[wesd2890]

Ill give him this.. his beard is awesome lol

[Jason_]

Lol.. he is slow.. how do you say hes playing the run well?.. he hasnt tackled anyone!.. how is he playing well and not makin any stops.

 

The OLB's job in a 3-4 is typically to set the edge in order to force the ball carrier back in the middle where the ILBs will be able to make the stop.  The OLB is there to prevent the RB from being able to bounce the ball outside and turn the corner.  If the OLB is successful, then the ball carrier will turn back upfield and get tackled either by the DL or an ILB.  Therefore, the OLB's won't get a large number of tackles against the running game unless the ball carrier is constantly trying to bounce the ball outside to the edge.

 

 

 Or playin well in coverage?.. no passes defense..

 

is that because he's allowing all kinds of completions or because the QBs haven't been throwing his way?  Kind of an important detail if all you're going to go by is number of passes defensed.

 

 

or rushing the passer.. well that just speaks for its self zero sacks.

 

You're right...he has 0 sacks so far which is disheartening.  However he is getting pressure and forcing the QB to move off his spot.  Yeah it would be great if Werner would start getting home and start piling up some sacks, but he is still at least getting some pressure so he hasn't been completely useless.

 

 

All im sayin is you guys are making it look like hes playin great

.

Who has said that?  And you're making it sound like he's been horrible.  Neither are true..he hasn't been great but he hasn't been horrible either.  

[UKCOLT17]

 

You're right...he has 0 sacks so far which is disheartening.  However he is getting pressure and forcing the QB to move off his spot.  Yeah it would be great if Werner would start getting home and start piling up some sacks, but he is still at least getting some pressure so he hasn't been completely useless.

 

 

Bjorn Werner, DE: -2.5

Breakdown: After a disappointing rookie campaign from last year’s first round pick, the Colts are still hoping for Werner to step up and become their next dominant pass rusher in the mold of Mathis or Freeney. Unfortunately he hasn’t been able to do that, and was all but invisible on the field again on Sunday, managing just one tackle and one hurry in 36 snaps.

Signature Stat: Werner has a Pass Rushing Productivity of just 4.7 so far this year

 

  

 

 

[wesd2890]

Ukcolt said it all.. one hurry and one tackle in 36 snaps. That sounds pretty brutal. Specially when you add on the 41 snaps he played in the jags game. So in 77 snaps he has 2 tackles and 2 hurrys.. in my eyes and anyone who knows football would say thats pretty horrible.

[azcolt]

The only time I saw him close to the QB was when he got the questionable personal foul for slapping the QB's helmet. He seldom gets past a blocker so unless he's going to gain 50 pounds and become a space eater, I don't think we see him after this year.

[Quallenregen]

I think...the defense play great and Richardson too...

 

Time to look for a new forum bad boy....and here we are.....Björn Werner.

 

He is on a good way :-)

 

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Hear been terrible as a pass rusher. I cant speak for his run stopping though. He did Geg manhandled on a toss yesterday...

[BOTT]

Yeah you're right. They must have just been running those on a loop ;)

Then Game rewind must be cutting some plays out

[BOTT]

I'm calling him "POP Werner", cuz he gets schooled every week.

Funny and sad

[NewEra]

Then Game rewind must be cutting some plays out

Either that or I only paid attention to him when he was getting doubled and assumed there was more. I have been wrong one other time in my life. Was a while back, pull up a chair I can tell you all about it ;)

[lollygagger8]

Werner is decent at setting the edge............

 

 

**trying to stay positive here** 

[ruksak]

Werner is decent at setting the edge............

 

 

**trying to stay positive here** 

Problem with that excuse is that.....we need pressure from him. Setting the edge is among the most simplistic duties of his position. The real talent, 1st round talent, means you pressure the QB, garnering sacks and forcing errors by the target QB. 

 

Bluntly stated; Any UDFA rando can quickly learn to set the edge and contain. You don't draft a guy in the 1st to do that, you draft that high for a player that requires being game-planned against. No, he hasn't played a ton of games. Yes, he's "new". No, he has not shown much at all to even begin to warrant his high selection. I think he'd maybe do better if he were opposite to Mathis, but without Robert, he's easily countered and his efforts are mostly negligible. 

[coming on strong]

He is so bad its like so embarrassing i love most of grigsons picks but every once and a while every gm is gonna draft a bust. He is extremely slow no burst , you cant learn that even if he plays two more seasons he can't overcome his terrible speed or burst. Terrrible pick at least the coaching staffs is starting to notice how bad he is and is rotating newsome in there more he has speed and burst just needs to build some strength.

[lollygagger8]

Problem with that excuse is that.....we need pressure from him. Setting the edge is among the most simplistic duties of his position. The real talent, 1st round talent, means you pressure the QB, garnering sacks and forcing errors by the target QB. 

 

Bluntly stated; Any UDFA rando can quickly learn to set the edge and contain. You don't draft a guy in the 1st to do that, you draft that high for a player that requires being game-planned against. No, he hasn't played a ton of games. Yes, he's "new". No, he has not shown much at all to even begin to warrant his high selection. I think he'd maybe do better if he were opposite to Mathis, but without Robert, he's easily countered and his efforts are mostly negligible. 

 

 

 

I was trying to remain positive, but alas you pulled me down.