Is the verdict out on Werner yet? (Mega Merge)

[wesd2890]

Do you read what you type cm43sports.. the facts clearly support jags being the worst. Yeah raiders and tampa bay have the same record but when it comes to performance, jags have the worst stats therefore are the worst team. How is that hard to understand. Who the hell cares what bill parcells says? Facts are facts just cant argue that. Your also forgetting this isnt his subpar rookie season anymore its his 2nd year where he suppose to make a drastic improvement. Done arguing with you, people agree with me and not you.

[wesd2890]

Do you read what you type cm43sports.. the facts clearly support jags being the worst. Yeah raiders and tampa bay have the same record but when it comes to performance, jags have the worst stats therefore are the worst team. How is that hard to understand. Who the hell cares what bill parcells says? Facts are facts just cant argue that. Your also forgetting this isnt his subpar rookie season anymore its his 2nd year where he suppose to make a drastic improvement. Done arguing with you, people agree with me and not you.

[Jason_]

I don't think he's a bust, but his first round status was probably too high, given his production. 

 

Are you talking about his production since entering the league or his production in college?

 

Yep, you don't take a 1st rounder to be a backup

Whoever you pick first is supposed to be someone who's gonna come in and impact/start from day one

 

Its only one game against the worst team in the league.. if he cant do more that one tackle against the worst team what makes you think he can do anything against a good team. In three weeks hes been a no show. When safetys are gettin sacks and our so called best pass rusher cant get one. Its pathetic. Hes got 6 tackles in 3 games. Its his second year i know blah blah blah. Thing is he was a first round pick. First round picks are someone who can come in a make an immediate impact. He has been anything but first round quality.

 

Where did this misguided notion that all first round picks are supposed to be starters/impact players from day 1 come from? I could maybe see that being said for top 10-15 picks, but after that, there's no guarantee you're getting an immediate impact player.   Has to either be due to being spoiled by the rare but ultra deep 2012 draft class....or too much Madden.

 

[Jason_]

I'm surprised that you think it's OK that Werner is ineffective against the better talent in the league because he'll do fine against the lesser players.  I don't know what your goal is but mine is not to be 8-8 or something like that or have Luck have to come back and score 40 points to win.  This D is broken and it's largely due to the rush linebacker position.  That's what's missing so what do we do??

 

Perhaps because Werner is only 3 games into his 2nd season.  Not many players with that little experience are able to go against the elite players in the league.

[open window]

Werner is awful.. he played against the WORST offensive line in the leauge didnt get a sack. HE HAD ONE TACKLE! Play the whole game and you have one tackle. You guys can say he shouldve had this he should've had this. Fact of the matter is he almost played ever defensive snap and had 0 sacks and one tackle against the worst team in the league.. dude is garbage

number of tackles, is a tough stat when Jacksonville didn't have the ball for very many plays.

[Jhaze55]

Are you talking about his production since entering the league or his production in college?

 

 

 

Where did this misguided notion that all first round picks are supposed to be starters/impact players from day 1 come from? I could maybe see that being said for top 10-15 picks, but after that, there's no guarantee you're getting an immediate impact player.   Has to either be due to being spoiled by the rare but ultra deep 2012 draft class....or too much Madden.

Probably not Madden. If you don't completely examine the player you want, then you'll draft a bust every time. The stuff is a science. don't even get me started on the later rounds with the 34 overall center I drafted.

[CanuckColt]

You mean the same talking heads that said at one time he was a top 3 player in the draft?

I don't know about that, but it sure doesn't take a genius to see that this guy is NOT first round talent.

[SteelCityColt]

Do you read what you type cm43sports.. the facts clearly support jags being the worst. Yeah raiders and tampa bay have the same record but when it comes to performance, jags have the worst stats therefore are the worst team. How is that hard to understand. Who the hell cares what bill parcells says? Facts are facts just cant argue that. Your also forgetting this isnt his subpar rookie season anymore its his 2nd year where he suppose to make a drastic improvement. Done arguing with you, people agree with me and not you.

 

I wouldn't say everyone agrees with you.

 

Where do you get this idea that a pass rusher, let alone one converting position who missed a significant chunk off his rookie season must suddenly explode into epic like production by the 3rd game of the season. Maybe because we're obviously blessed with so many pass rushers that they can't afford to double Werner...oh no wait that's exactly what has been happening. 

 

Not saying by any means Werner is the 2nd coming of LT, but he's getting a rough ride, especially by those saying there's been no progression. 

 

Little fun... guess the players from the stat lines

 

             Player A Player B

Tackles     17           18 

Sacks        3.5         2.5 

P/D            1            4  

40 time      4.72      4.81

Weight       246       266

[NewEra]

I don't know about that, but it sure doesn't take a genius to see that this guy is NOT first round talent.

Going into the season he talked about being a top 3 pick. He was still rated as one of the top DE's in the draft. I think his combine #'s knocked him down some. I don't really care how fast a linemen can run a 40 yard dash. If any of our linemen are running a 40 yard dash we are already screwed. He has played 3 games in his second year. 3! After being drafted and learning a brand new postion. I'm really not sure what you people expect.

[colts8718]

I don't know about that, but it sure doesn't take a genius to see that this guy is NOT first round talentAnother

Another great pick by GRIGSON  Iwish he would stop going with his gut feelings, After his first draft where he had help from The new Charger GM ( always forget his name Tom ?) the last 2  have not offered much help besides trading that 1st pick for Richardson that's when i started worrying 

[SteelCityColt]

I don't know about that, but it sure doesn't take a genius to see that this guy is NOT first round talent.

 

Well I certainly remember Werner shooting up the draft boards, some mocks did have him at no.1 to the Jags for a brief time, most certainly didn't have him available by the time we were on the board so I can see why we took him. A rounded player they thought they could groom at Mathis successor while offering better cover against the run & pass? Sure why not. 

 

Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, long and short of it is it's silly to think we can judge him completely this early in. At the least see what he does this year before we bury him, where you were drafted should be irrelevant now (I know it's not but it should be!), it's what you do on the field that's going to count. 

[NewEra]

Well I certainly remember Werner shooting up the draft boards, some mocks did have him at no.1 to the Jags for a brief time, most certainly didn't have him available by the time we were on the board so I can see why we took him. A rounded player they thought they could groom at Mathis successor while offering better cover against the run & pass? Sure why not.

Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, long and short of it is it's silly to think we can judge him completely this early in. At the least see what he does this year before we bury him, where you were drafted should be irrelevant now (I know it's not but it should be!), it's what you do on the field that's going to count.

That's all nonsense! If he doesn't come out and get double digit sacks his first year, and more his second year he's a bust. Lol

He's doing better than the Texans #1 pick!

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Wikipedia: BARLEY- A member of the grass family, is a cereal grain. It was one of the first cultivated grains and

is now grown widely. Barley grain is a staple in Tibetan cuisine and was eaten widely by peasants in

Medieval  Europe.

 

Thank you Euell Gibbons .

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTcLOqTsNds

[BlueCollarColts]

I wouldn't say everyone agrees with you.

 

Where do you get this idea that a pass rusher, let alone one converting position who missed a significant chunk off his rookie season must suddenly explode into epic like production by the 3rd game of the season. Maybe because we're obviously blessed with so many pass rushers that they can't afford to double Werner...oh no wait that's exactly what has been happening. 

 

Not saying by any means Werner is the 2nd coming of LT, but he's getting a rough ride, especially by those saying there's been no progression. 

 

Little fun... guess the players from the stat lines

 

             Player A Player B

Tackles     17           18 

Sacks        3.5         2.5 

P/D            1            4  

40 time      4.72      4.81

Weight       246       266

Ummm, Mathis and Werner? No clue just guessing because they are on the same team 

[Gavin]

Wait till after year three, After year three then you have only 1 year left to see if Werner is worth that long term deal if he can be that guy, If he don't have a break out year in year 3 then I believe ya start looking for his replacement.....I know he could break out in year 4......But are ya willing to trust 1 years worth of production(Especially if it mediocre?) and sign him to a big deal.....Im not? ya draft that guy while continuing to start Werner and bringing your new draft pick in the game some during games to get his feet wet and see how he does, If the new draft pick begins to play better then Werner then Werner loses more snaps until he is eventually a permanent back up on the team, Then ya have to decide is Werner worth a short term reasonable deal to be a back up or do ya bring in some FA to be your back up........Bottom line...ya cant make that decision after year 2 and certainly not 3 games in

[Gavin]

Ummm, Mathis and Werner? No clue just guessing because they are on the same team 

yes

[Superman]

Wait till after year three, After year three then you have only 1 year left to see if Werner is worth that long term deal if he can be that guy, If he don't have a break out year in year 3 then I believe ya start looking for his replacement.....I know he could break out in year 4......But are ya willing to trust 1 years worth of production(Especially if it mediocre?) and sign him to a big deal.....Im not? ya draft that guy while continuing to start Werner and bringing your new draft pick in the game some during games to get his feet wet and see how he does, If the new draft pick begins to play better then Werner then Werner loses more snaps until he is eventually a permanent back up on the team, Then ya have to decide is Werner worth a short term reasonable deal to be a back up or do ya bring in some FA to be your back up........Bottom line...ya cant make that decision after year 2 and certainly not 3 games in

 

Worst case scenario, barring injury, is we move him to Sam full time, which is fine. And then we find someone else to play the Rush spot. Might already be Newsome, but we're still a long way from being able to determine that. My point is that even if he's not the Rush backer we hope he can be, he's still going to be a good contributor. It's not going to be boom or bust with Werner.

[chrisfarley]

i can't remember what he even looks like.

[cm43sports]

Do you read what you type cm43sports.. the facts clearly support jags being the worst. Yeah raiders and tampa bay have the same record but when it comes to performance, jags have the worst stats therefore are the worst team. How is that hard to understand. Who the hell cares what bill parcells says? Facts are facts just cant argue that. Your also forgetting this isnt his subpar rookie season anymore its his 2nd year where he suppose to make a drastic improvement. Done arguing with you, people agree with me and not you.

Except the facts (their records) say that they're tied for the third worst team. Is it possible that the Jaguars end up the worst team? Sure. That being said, you're simply guessing. Personally, I think the Raiders are worse off and have shown a lack of a plan which is extremely discouraging. The Bucs may also be worse after seeing them be dismantled against the Falcons but this is all opinionated.

Also, while some posters wish Werner played better, I'm not sure that anyone, other than perhaps a select few posters, agrees with you. You simply don't give up on players within two seasons of drafting them and to do so is rather asinine. As previously stated, several players didn't make immediate impacts but went on to have a successful career but you have yet to acknowledge that. Not every player is going to be a day one all star and to expect that is foolish. Perhaps you should temper your expectations. Also of note is that not every player will be a superstar. Some players will be good depth or starters without being stars. If Werner is a starter and has a productive but unspectacular career for lets say ten years then he is hardly a bust. Is he the amazing superstar pass-rusher that we, as fans, want? No, perhaps not, but he can still be a good, productive player and to trade him at this point in his career would simply be a panic move to appease the fans that are unfairly labeling a second year player a bust after week three. Just out of curiosity I looked up Mathis's stats to week three of his sophomore season only to find out that Mathis had 3.5 sacks his rookie year and another sack in week three of his second season. Werner had 2.5 sacks his first season and would've had another in week three in his second season if not for a bad call on Vontae Davis. This means that, to that point in their respective careers, Werner has two less sacks than Mathis. Two less sacks to this point and yet we have people calling to trade Werner when quite simply put you have no idea how his career will play out.

[open window]

Not trying to be funny here, but James Harrison was cut how many times before he became defensive POY? Before you attack me for the comparison please understand it is not. Enjoy the games, I will.

[NewEra]

Except the facts (their records) say that they're tied for the third worst team. Is it possible that the Jaguars end up the worst team? Sure. That being said, you're simply guessing. Personally, I think the Raiders are worse off and have shown a lack of a plan which is extremely discouraging. The Bucs may also be worse after seeing them be dismantled against the Falcons but this is all opinionated.

Also, while some posters wish Werner played better, I'm not sure that anyone, other than perhaps a select few posters, agrees with you. You simply don't give up on players within two seasons of drafting them and to do so is rather asinine. As previously stated, several players didn't make immediate impacts but went on to have a successful career but you have yet to acknowledge that. Not every player is going to be a day one all star and to expect that is foolish. Perhaps you should temper your expectations. Also of note is that not every player will be a superstar. Some players will be good depth or starters without being stars. If Werner is a starter and has a productive but unspectacular career for lets say ten years then he is hardly a bust. Is he the amazing superstar pass-rusher that we, as fans, want? No, perhaps not, but he can still be a good, productive player and to trade him at this point in his career would simply be a panic move to appease the fans that are unfairly labeling a second year player a bust after week three. Just out of curiosity I looked up Mathis's stats to week three of his sophomore season only to find out that Mathis had 3.5 sacks his rookie year and another sack in week three of his second season. Werner had 2.5 sacks his first season and would've had another in week three in his second season if not for a bad call on Vontae Davis. This means that, to that point in their respective careers, Werner has two less sacks than Mathis. Two less sacks to this point and yet we have people calling to trade Werner when quite simply put you have no idea how his career will play out.

2 less sacks us Werner is out in coverage also. Which Mathis never was until the switch. Also, Werner only played a handful of games due to injury. I think the haters just look at his stats instead of actually watching him on the field. Cause if they did they would know Werner has been getting the bulk of the double teams. Not just chips either. Straight double teamed the whole time. Plus dropping back in coverage a bunch. The kid is a damn good football player.

[open window]

2 less sacks us Werner is out in coverage also. Which Mathis never was until the switch. Also, Werner only played a handful of games due to injury. I think the haters just look at his stats instead of actually watching him on the field. Cause if they did they would know Werner has been getting the bulk of the double teams. Not just chips either. Straight double teamed the whole time. Plus dropping back in coverage a bunch. The kid is a damn good football player.

I used to hate the term "haters" but I get it. People love being angry, let Ren and Stimpy be thy guide to enlightenment.

[cm43sports]

2 less sacks us Werner is out in coverage also. Which Mathis never was until the switch. Also, Werner only played a handful of games due to injury. I think the haters just look at his stats instead of actually watching him on the field. Cause if they did they would know Werner has been getting the bulk of the double teams. Not just chips either. Straight double teamed the whole time. Plus dropping back in coverage a bunch. The kid is a damn good football player.

I agree with everything you said, however; I would still like to see the Colts get a speed rusher next year. I think if they got someone like Noah Spence (assuming he proves he doesn't have drug issues) and return Mathis, then that will allow the Colts to play Werner in the Sam role. I think that with the addition of a speed rusher and the replacement of Walden with Werner that our pass rush would become a strength of the team.

[BlueShoe]

Ich muss Sie brechen

[SteelCityColt]

Ummm, Mathis and Werner? No clue just guessing because they are on the same team 

 

You would be right, comparison of their Rookie seasons... and I believe Werner missed 3 games of his too. 

 

Just wanted to make the point I guess that players need time sometimes, though I concede Mathis would have of course had lower expectations coming in. 

[BOTT]

2 less sacks us Werner is out in coverage also. Which Mathis never was until the switch. Also, Werner only played a handful of games due to injury. I think the haters just look at his stats instead of actually watching him on the field. Cause if they did they would know Werner has been getting the bulk of the double teams. Not just chips either. Straight double teamed the whole time. Plus dropping back in coverage a bunch. The kid is a damn good football player.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. He isn't getting double teamed when I watch him...and I see nothing but a below average athlete with no explosion who plays rather non aggressively for a defensive player. And the fact that he is dropping back in coverage on obvious passing down tells me something.....

[Jason_]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. He isn't getting double teamed when I watch him...and I see nothing but a below average athlete with no explosion who plays rather non aggressively for a defensive player. And the fact that he is dropping back in coverage on obvious passing down tells me something.....

 

Can't speak for the Denver or Philly games because I haven't watched them recently, but I saw Werner getting double teamed quite a bit during the Jax game.

[NewEra]

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. He isn't getting double teamed when I watch him...and I see nothing but a below average athlete with no explosion who plays rather non aggressively for a defensive player. And the fact that he is dropping back in coverage on obvious passing down tells me something.....

Like Jason said, I'd have to re watch the first two games. But as far as the jags game he was double teamed most of the time. And him dropping back in coverage tells me he is better than walden at it. They also dropped him back in the ILB spot so I think it was Jackson could blitz.

[gacker65]

Are you talking about his production since entering the league or his production in college?

 

 

 

Where did this misguided notion that all first round picks are supposed to be starters/impact players from day 1 come from? I could maybe see that being said for top 10-15 picks, but after that, there's no guarantee you're getting an immediate impact player.   Has to either be due to being spoiled by the rare but ultra deep 2012 draft class....or too much Madden.

That "misguided notion" was around long before the Colts came to Indy.  Usually, you draft a player in the 1st round, who will impact/start for your team in their 1st year.  The exception to this is if you have good depth at all positions and can afford a project with your 1st rounder.

 

You are correct when you say any 1st rounder is not a guaranteed starter.  It is the chance that every team takes.  Has nothing to do with 2012 or Madden.

 

This misguided notion is why Manuel, Gabbert, Locker, (to name a few QBs) are drafted in the 1st round, when they are really 2nd or later round draftees.  It is also why so few O-linemen are drafted in the 1st round ( linemen take around 3 years to develop, IMO). 

 

As far as Werner, it was known that we were drafting a project and not a starter (transitioning from 4/3 DE to 3/4 OLB), and would need to have at least 3 years to develop.  As we had other concerns with the team, this was a bad idea, IMO.  We could have traded with Vikings and took the chance of getting Werner in the top of the 2nd.  This would have lowered expectations on Werner and gave us more draft picks (what I wanted).  We could have drafted some other need.

 

Even though by where Werner was drafted, he is a bust, IMO, he could still have a great career, later on.

[Gavin]

That "misguided notion" was around long before the Colts came to Indy.  Usually, you draft a player in the 1st round, who will impact/start for your team in their 1st year.  The exception to this is if you have good depth at all positions and can afford a project with your 1st rounder.

 

You are correct when you say any 1st rounder is not a guaranteed starter.  It is the chance that every team takes.  Has nothing to do with 2012 or Madden.

 

This misguided notion is why Manuel, Gabbert, Locker, (to name a few QBs) are drafted in the 1st round, when they are really 2nd or later round draftees.  It is also why so few O-linemen are drafted in the 1st round ( linemen take around 3 years to develop, IMO). 

 

As far as Werner, it was known that we were drafting a project and not a starter (transitioning from 4/3 DE to 3/4 OLB), and would need to have at least 3 years to develop.  As we had other concerns with the team, this was a bad idea, IMO.  We could have traded with Vikings and took the chance of getting Werner in the top of the 2nd.  This would have lowered expectations on Werner and gave us more draft picks (what I wanted).  We could have drafted some other need.

 

Even though by where Werner was drafted, he is a bust, IMO, he could still have a great career, later on.

Werner actually played plenty of rush linebacker at Florida State, He doesn't have much start /stop explosion and doesn't consistently turner to Corner well to beat the tackle and take a direct path to the QB, He can get back there but has trouble readjusting to get to the QB when the QB steps up

[CR91]

how do you not kill bortles when he was rolling right into you on the bootleg off the play action. 

[TKnight24]

Welp...... Guess Werner now fills the role of the forums new whipping boy

[CR91]

Welp...... Guess Werner now fills the role of the forums new whipping boy

 

it was such an easy play though and he completely whiffed. bortles was right in front of him

[jskinnz]

it was such an easy play though and he completely whiffed. bortles was right in front of him

Luck did the same thing to the Jags D on an earlier play. They are both great athletes & I am guessing that it was not quite as easy as you make it out to be. Shocking as that is.

[CR91]

Luck did the same thing to the Jags D on an earlier play. They are both great athletes & I am guessing that it was not quite as easy as you make it out to be. Shocking as that is.

http://www.colts.com/videos/videos/Week-3-Indianapolis-Colts-vs-Jacksonville-Jaguars-highlights/ffcc2c3a-a635-43e2-9856-c4416647cd44

 

go to 1:30

[SteelCityColt]

This seems a very specific complaint to make about a player?

[Superman]

Luck did the same thing to the Jags D on an earlier play. They are both great athletes & I am guessing that it was not quite as easy as you make it out to be. Shocking as that is.

 

Exactly. Luck dodges a pass rusher, and it's all about how great he is at eluding pressure. Bortles dodges a pass rusher, and it's about how our guy blew an "easy play."

[jskinnz]

http://www.colts.com/videos/videos/Week-3-Indianapolis-Colts-vs-Jacksonville-Jaguars-highlights/ffcc2c3a-a635-43e2-9856-c4416647cd44

go to 1:30

And? That was the exact play I was speaking about.

[Superman]

Also, I don't understand why this can't be part of the other Werner thread, so I'm merging.

[CR91]

And? That was the exact play I was speaking about.

 

ok werner was coming right at him before bortles even turned around. that should have been an easy sack. I didnt see the play with luck, but luck has done that all throughout his career. this was bortles first game. im not bagging on werner. im just saying it seem like a play he should have made