Is the verdict out on Werner yet? (Mega Merge)

[TKnight24]

Which is why I don't understand why you have to keep on about it, even in threads that are entirely unrelated.

How you post is up to you. I'm just stating that I think it's getting old.

Like I said, was replying to the OP until another poster brought it up by quoting me.

As 21isSuperman stated in your FYI thread, all it takes is one post

If the post is about Werner, why is a poster quoting me about Pep? They're the ones who're off-topic. All I did was respond, it's rude not to respond to people who quote you unless they're on your ignore list in which case you don't see them quoting you

[NewEra]

Yes the verdict is still out. Cause it shouldn't be in when he's only played his second game of the season. His second season at that.

[BOTT]

Allen was a massive reason why we ran all over the Eagles, And Luck IS a very average QB at this point in his career who makes GREAT plays late in games. He gets off to slow starts

You just described John Elway for much of his career. Very average QB's don't make great plays late in games.

[TKnight24]

Yes the verdict is still out. Cause it shouldn't be in when he's only played his second game of the season. His second season at that.

At a position he never played before until he got to Indy..... Don't forget that part

[a06cc]

I have to address two things. The first is others quoting people. This is a forum for people to express their feels or ideas. If you don't like what someone has posted don't reply, just move on and express things in your own way. The second is this topic about Bjoern. I personally think he'll be fine. He is great against the run which is a plus for us. I'd like to see some sacks this season. As long as he gets pressure and hurry ups I'll be fine with his performance. That has to come in away possible.

[Gavin]

You just described John Elway for much of his career. Very average QB's don't make great plays late in games.

Good point

[coltsfanatic24]

Werner has been average the first two games but he's gone up against the two best LT's in the league. Clady and Peters have prevented some of the best pass rushers in the league from getting sacks.

 

Werner is playing out of position, he's more of a strong side DE in a 4-3 or a LOLB in a 3-4. He's better suited going up against RT's, ROLB's are usually speed rushers that drop into coverage less. He's actually been good against the run and in coverage. He's shown flashes of what he can do coming off the edge, just doesn't get a quick jump off the ball in a 2 point stance as he does in a 4 point stance. As the season goes on, I do think will see major improvements and he'll finish with 10 -12 sacks.

[Superman]

Werner has been average the first two games but he's gone up against the two best LT's in the league. Clady and Peters have prevented some of the best pass rushers in the league from getting sacks.

 

Werner is playing out of position, he's more of a strong side DE in a 4-3 or a LOLB in a 3-4. He's better suited going up against RT's, ROLB's are usually speed rushers that drop into coverage less. He's actually been good against the run and in coverage. He's shown flashes of what he can do coming off the edge, just doesn't get a quick jump off the ball in a 2 point stance as he does in a 4 point stance. As the season goes on, I do think will see major improvements and he'll finish with 10 -12 sacks.

 

I'm surprised to see you post this, twice, by the way. You've been mostly critical of Werner.

[coltsfanatic24]

I'm surprised to see you post this, twice, by the way. You've been mostly critical of Werner.

Mostly critical about the coaching staff playing him out of position.

[Superman]

Mostly critical about the coaching staff playing him out of position.

 

I guess there's a distinction there. I'm more concerned about his burst and closing speed than him playing OLB. Ironically, I'm thinking he's better suited for Sam than Rush, but we'll see. If he can post double digit sacks this season, it's a moot point, I think.

 

I've always compared him to Ryan Kerrigan, who just had 4 sacks against the Jags. 

[NewEra]

At a position he never played before until he got to Indy..... Don't forget that part

And he only played a handful of games last year due to injury. They need to change the NFL to IGL immediate gratification league

[OLD FAN MAN]

I have to address two things. The first is others quoting people. This is a forum for people to express their feels or ideas. If you don't like what someone has posted don't reply, just move on and express things in your own way. The second is this topic about Bjoern. I personally think he'll be fine. He is great against the run which is a plus for us. I'd like to see some sacks this season. As long as he gets pressure and hurry ups I'll be fine with his performance. That has to come in away possible.

good point in the first part of your post

[Bluefire4]

..... Cause he sucks. Shows no hint of improving at all. Only time he changed his ways was when Reggie went down.

Maybe Reggie has to go down again to get him to realize the other weapons he has besides Hilton & Reggie

You're acting like Luck doesn't have a huge part in that. Just because Wayne and Hilton are Lucks favorite targets doesn't mean Pep sucks. You can't throw it to every player every game. Just because Nicks hasn't made an impact yet doesn't mean it's anybodys fault.. Luck has to get used to him and vice versa.

[PrincetonTiger]

BW is not bust

[krunk]

I guess there's a distinction there. I'm more concerned about his burst and closing speed than him playing OLB. Ironically, I'm thinking he's better suited for Sam than Rush, but we'll see. If he can post double digit sacks this season, it's a moot point, I think.

 

I've always compared him to Ryan Kerrigan, who just had 4 sacks against the Jags. 

 

Sometimes when I look at Werner he reminds me of Chad Bradtzke.

[krunk]

I'd like to see Werner switched to the SAM, but it just is not going to happen this year because then you'd have to put Walden on the bench, or switch him to the Rush linebacker.  And we know he wouldn't be any more productive at Rush then Werner.  On passing downs I'd like to see us get our quickest people on the field in a rotation across the D line. Even combinations where you could slide Werner inside to tackle alongside Redding or RJF.  For example Newsome and Carter at the ends with Werner and Redding at the tackles.  I think we could apply pressure with some good stunts and twists. 

[ColtsHoosiersBB]

Why must every thread feature your disgust for Pep?

 

Actually, if you read the top part of the thread you'll see I was replying to the OP until a poster made a comment about Pep to me.

So outside of my rant on Monday, other people have started my rants. So yeah.....

 

You choose to rant. It's not the fault of anyone else.

 

Well, if I don't get quoted about Pep, I won't rant. Pretty sure everyone knows where I stand on the matter by now

 

Which is why I don't understand why you have to keep on about it, even in threads that are entirely unrelated. 

 

How you post is up to you. I'm just stating that I think it's getting old.

[Superman]

Sometimes when I look at Werner he reminds me of Chad Bradtzke.

 

That's not complimentary. But he did have 12 sacks his first year with us.

[Andy]

It's been two games and he went up against Clady and Peters, two top 4 left tackles in the game today.

 

Give him time and let him play.

[TKnight24]

It's been two games and he went up against Clady and Peters, two top 4 left tackles in the game today.

Give him time and let him play.

We don't flip our LB's do we?

Like when you watch the 49ers sometimes they put A. Smith & J. Smith on the same side and rush the QB

I think having Werner rush from the side of Redding will help generate a rush a bit. Especially since A. Jones is now out

[Andy]

We don't flip our LB's do we?

Like when you watch the 49ers sometimes they put A. Smith & J. Smith on the same side and rush the QB

I think having Werner rush from the side of Redding will help generate a rush a bit. Especially since A. Jones is now out

 

Although flipping isn't a bad thing to do (or try out going forward), Werner and Redding will never match the production of Aldon and Justin Smith. Both are elite players and a force, so getting on the side same and rushing the QB works well in that situation.

[TKnight24]

Although flipping isn't a bad thing to do (or try out going forward), Werner and Redding will never match the production of Aldon and Justin Smith. Both are elite players and a force, so getting on the side same and rushing the QB works well in that situation.

Well not comparing them talent wise just using that situation for us. It could work, obviously never as good as the Smith boys but just enough to help our secondary out

[wordofmouth]

Werner has been average the first two games but he's gone up against the two best LT's in the league. Clady and Peters have prevented some of the best pass rushers in the league from getting sacks.

 

Werner is playing out of position, he's more of a strong side DE in a 4-3 or a LOLB in a 3-4. He's better suited going up against RT's, ROLB's are usually speed rushers that drop into coverage less. He's actually been good against the run and in coverage. He's shown flashes of what he can do coming off the edge, just doesn't get a quick jump off the ball in a 2 point stance as he does in a 4 point stance. As the season goes on, I do think will see major improvements and he'll finish with 10 -12 sacks.

Well said. 

Monday night I asked the same question in a post. I think Werner can turn out to be a player that is OK but I don't see him having too high of an upside.

People are right that the last two weeks he has gone up against two great tackles. Having said that, boy did he get manhandled.

His future is definitely not as an edge pass rusher.

Let's hope both he and the Manusky can figure out how to best unitize the skills he does have.

[Jhaze55]

Anyone else think he might be better suited for the Sam backer spot?

 

I just don't feel like he's a pure pass rusher. I could see him being decent at setting the edge and stopping the run, as well as putting some pressure on.

 

Also, I think he's starting a year before he's supposed to. Without Mathis going down, he's still sitting. Guess it's time for him to step up and prove himself.

[Reddog]

Our 1st round draft pick Bejorn Werner isn't getting done at least not yet. My opinion for what it's worth is that he's like a 6 round pick instead of a 1st! What does everyone else think?

 

I believe he's a miss and I hope I'm wrong but IMO he just isn't paining out. 

You are right, he is not the rush LB they hoped he would be.  He's too small for DE in the 3-4.  I got crucified for suggesting we trade for Freeney.  Jerry Hughes, who we dealt would be more of a possiblity, but of he's gone and so is the guy they got for him.  So I ask, once again, who is our rush LB???

[Reddog]

I'd like to see Werner switched to the SAM, but it just is not going to happen this year because then you'd have to put Walden on the bench, or switch him to the Rush linebacker.  And we know he wouldn't be any more productive at Rush then Werner.  On passing downs I'd like to see us get our quickest people on the field in a rotation across the D line. Even combinations where you could slide Werner inside to tackle alongside Redding or RJF.  For example Newsome and Carter at the ends with Werner and Redding at the tackles.  I think we could apply pressure with some good stunts and twists. 

Agree with much of what you said, but you have to have that rush LB threat to make the gadgets work....we don't...

[Reddog]

I'm surprised to see you post this, twice, by the way. You've been mostly critical of Werner.

I'm surprised that you think it's OK that Werner is ineffective against the better talent in the league because he'll do fine against the lesser players.  I don't know what your goal is but mine is not to be 8-8 or something like that or have Luck have to come back and score 40 points to win.  This D is broken and it's largely due to the rush linebacker position.  That's what's missing so what do we do??

[YOUR GM]

kinda hard to judge. he was going against ryan clady and jason peters two of the best tackles in the game

 

Yeah, but on the same token, that's kinda why we spent a 1st on the guy, to beat guys like that occasionally. He hasn't impressed me, and I think we used too high of a pick on him, but that doesn't mean he can't develop into a solid contributor to our rotation. He's improved a little (and should improve more) so I wouldn't call him a bust, but I think we could have used that pick more wisely. I felt the same way the night we drafted him and he has done little to persuade me otherwise since

[needanoline63]

When he can't even get pressure against a 3rd stringer. That about did it for me

[Superman]

I'm surprised that you think it's OK that Werner is ineffective against the better talent in the league because he'll do fine against the lesser players. I don't know what your goal is but mine is not to be 8-8 or something like that or have Luck have to come back and score 40 points to win. This D is broken and it's largely due to the rush linebacker position. That's what's missing so what do we do??

Did you mean to quote someone else? Because I never said I thought Werner has been okay.

Also, even if you're dissatisfied with him so far, it's still very early in his career. You're complaining about not having Jerry Hughes, but he looked much less effective than Werner has at this point in his career.

[YOUR GM]

Did you mean to quote someone else? Because I never said I thought Werner has been okay.

Also, even if you're dissatisfied with him so far, it's still very early in his career. You're complaining about not having Jerry Hughes, but he looked much less effective than Werner has at this point in his career.

 

I think both Hughes and Werner were/are being forced into positions they aren't naturally suited to play. I thought trading Hughes was pretty dumb at the time, considering we just switched to a scheme that he was a natural fit for, and we moved on from Freeney. We basically created another hole to be filled, and chose to fill it with someone who has to be converted (like the guy we had just let walk BECAUSE he wasn't a good scheme fit) I don't know... seems like we're chasing our own tail at times 

[Reddog]

Did you mean to quote someone else? Because I never said I thought Werner has been okay.

Also, even if you're dissatisfied with him so far, it's still very early in his career. You're complaining about not having Jerry Hughes, but he looked much less effective than Werner has at this point in his career.

Hughes played in a different defense, very different responsibilities.  I think he may have been much better in this D, but Werner is not going to get any faster even if he improves his technique.

[Superman]

I think both Hughes and Werner were/are being forced into positions they aren't naturally suited to play. I thought trading Hughes was pretty dumb at the time, considering we just switched to a scheme that he was a natural fit for, and we moved on from Freeney. We basically created another hole to be filled, and chose to fill it with someone who has to be converted (like the guy we had just let walk BECAUSE he wasn't a good scheme fit) I don't know... seems like we're chasing our own tail at times 

 

I don't know. Teams convert DEs to OLB and OLBs to DE all the time. Literally. It's not some great phenomenon. And in the case of Hughes, while he should have been an OLB -- we shouldn't have drafted him, IMO -- he was a DE in college. 

 

Also, Werner, mostly a DE, rushed from a two point stance and even dropped into coverage from time to time at FSU. So it's another situation where you can see some talent and potential, even if you're converting them to another position. 

 

As for chasing our tails, in this regard, I sort of agree. I thought we'd be placing a premium on adding pass rushers who could play Sam and Rush, and then we trade Hughes. I didn't think it was a good move, and the aftermath has confirmed that. 

[superrep1967]

You are right, he is not the rush LB they hoped he would be.  He's too small for DE in the 3-4.  I got crucified for suggesting we trade for Freeney.  Jerry Hughes, who we dealt would be more of a possiblity, but of he's gone and so is the guy they got for him.  So I ask, once again, who is our rush LB???

We don't have one and that's a big problem. 

[superrep1967]

I didn't have high expectations for him to start with.  He's a 4-3 DE and they're trying to make him play a 3-4 OLB.  It's like putting a square peg into a round hole (sounds kinda familiar with this regime...).  I can't say for sure, but I think Grigson and Pagano were enamoured by his ability to bat balls down and they desired to have a guy who can do some of the things JJ Watt can do, so they pulled the trigger.  I have no doubt that he's talented, but he isn't panning out in this defense so far.  I'm still hoping he proves me wrong

Exactly!

[superrep1967]

I don't think he's a bust, but his first round status was probably too high, given his production. 

Yes thank you

[Reddog]

We don't have one and that's a big problem. 

Thank you...by the way, would you welcome Freeney back...just askin'...

[crestmount]

just sack the whole lot and start again--open the roster up to a consensus vote from this forum, rotate the coaching staff, and rotate the Defense and Offense--I'd like to see Luck play LB with Werner at QB

 

No more stupid than some of the crap I read on this forum

[Reddog]

Good point

QB's take a while to settle in to the NFL.  Anyone remember how many interceptions Manning through early in his career? 

[Gavin]

QB's take a while to settle in to the NFL.  Anyone remember how many interceptions Manning through early in his career? 

Right