Does Anyone Miss Polian?

[Jason_]

Oh dear, this forum needs some medication at times.

 

Last year all I read was how Bruce Arians had the suckiest play calling that would kill Luck and turn him into Big Ben 2.0 and his body would not last till age 26.

 

This year I hear that Pep Hamilton sucks and is too conservative and Luck is going to become Alex Smith 2.0.

 

 

Last several years Bill Polian was the devil and now some like him again. Pagano used to be everyone's hero and now everyone thinks he is a soft cupcake.

 

If only Prozaic could be handed out after every Colts loss.  :disco: 

[coltsfanatic24]

I actually agree somewhat with quite a bit of this.  However, to the bolded, that was more on Dungy than Polian.  Dungy installed his defense and Polian drafted players that would fit that defense.  The same thing happened to Minnesota several years while Dungy was the DC there.  They had several power house offenses but the defense was "small but fast".  They'd be fine for the most part during the regular season but then get to the playoffs and teams like the Giants and Cowboys would run down their throats leading to a lot of one and dones.  

 

So yeah Polian does share some blame as well because he could/should have worked with Dungy to adjust the defensive philosophy or brought in someone to run a more physical style of defense.  The only time Dungy's defense was ever "dominant" was in Tampa and that's because they spent the majority of their cap money and high draft picks on defense.  indy had already invested too heavily in offense to be able to spend the same kind of money on defense.

Polian didn't care too much about defense. I guess he figured he'll give Peyton as many weapons he needed and put up enough points that teams won't be able to keep up. Other then Freeney, Polian didn't draft one defensive linemen in the 1st round for a decade. That says a lot about how much he cared about defense.

[husker61]

I actually agree somewhat with quite a bit of this.  However, to the bolded, that was more on Dungy than Polian.  Dungy installed his defense and Polian drafted players that would fit that defense.  The same thing happened to Minnesota several years while Dungy was the DC there.  They had several power house offenses but the defense was "small but fast".  They'd be fine for the most part during the regular season but then get to the playoffs and teams like the Giants and Cowboys would run down their throats leading to a lot of one and dones.  

 

So yeah Polian does share some blame as well because he could/should have worked with Dungy to adjust the defensive philosophy or brought in someone to run a more physical style of defense.  The only time Dungy's defense was ever "dominant" was in Tampa and that's because they spent the majority of their cap money and high draft picks on defense.  indy had already invested too heavily in offense to be able to spend the same kind of money on defense.

 

agreed, and he had sapp, brooks, barber, and lynch. that kind of helps.

[husker61]

Polian didn't care too much about defense. I guess he figured he'll give Peyton as many weapons he needed and put up enough points that teams won't be able to keep up. Other then Freeney, Polian didn't draft one defensive linemen in the 1st round for a decade. That says a lot about how much he cared about defense.

 

he didn't draft one offensive lineman ether. i guess that says a lot about how much he cares about offense. his biggest free agent signing was a dt, no offensive lineman. your reasoning is seriously flawed.

[BlueShoe]

Miss Polian?

 

Never met her.

[ColtsFreak]

Not a chance.  I'm glad he got sent packing.

[unitaswestand]

Polian is one of the great talent evaluators in NFL history.  But I think just like longing for Peyton, we had to move forward.  I hope Grigson ends up being half the talent guy that Polian was.

 

I do wonder what effect it will have that Grigson is not the force Polian is.   I always got the feeling that Polian ran the team with an iron glove and he made things happen, where I think Grigson is more at the mercy of what Irsay says.  Polian probably told Irsay to shut up and stay out of his job.

[Gavin]

Nope not at all

[lollygagger8]

I know he could be stubborn and had his flaws, but it's hard to argue that he wasn't the best talent evaluator and general manager/club president the Colts had ever seen, at least until he started to turn things over to his son Chris towards the end. He didn't like to spend money on free agents and believed in building through the draft. Ten years of excellence and 2 Super Bowls is not easy.

 

I'd say Grigson could learn a few things from him, especially when it comes to trading away draft picks. Building through free agency is fine in moderation, but it will eventually lead to cap problems.

 

[Tark The Shark]

I certainly don't miss Polian.

 

Polian, late in his career, just was very stubborn and made a huge mistake by not finding a better replacement for Dungy.

[NewEra]

Oh dear, this forum needs some medication at times.

Last year all I read was how Bruce Arians had the suckiest play calling that would kill Luck and turn him into Big Ben 2.0 and his body would not last till age 26.

This year I hear that Pep Hamilton sucks and is too conservative and Luck is going to become Alex Smith 2.0.

Last several years Bill Polian was the devil and now some like him again. Pagano used to be everyone's hero and now everyone thinks he is a soft cupcake.

So apparently we need to have the balance if the two. I think BA was better at game flow, coming out aggressive and making adjustments on the fly. We always come out with no rhythm at all and most time takes us till second half to get going.

It's not all on offense though. Defense isn't doing us any favors letting teams drive down the field at will and score. But if offense could sustain a drive that would give the D a rest also.

I'm just at a loss for words. I don't know what the heck is going on lately. Is it injuries, is it not be prepared, coaching. I think a lot of it has to be coaching for refusing to make changes. I don't care who gets paid what, the players who give us the best chance to win need to be on the field.

[Coffeedrinker]

Bill Polian was far too conservative in his approach. It can be argued Grigson has been too far in the other direction, but weve only seen him for 2 years, he still has plenty of time to reign it in a bit.

I dont think anyone here misses Polian. He burned far too many bridges with the fanbase, and way overpayed players just to keep the guys he drafted in house and completely tuned out free agency and trades, which was as much the cause of the decline of the Manning era as busted draft selections.

I miss Polian, he was an excellent GM.  His biggest issue that I didn't like was he gave too much power to his son who, IMO didn't earn it.  I like Grigson as well finding gems like Hilton, Thornton, Allen, Ballard, etc shows he can find talent in the later rounds.

 

But mainly I wanted to talk about the bolded part.  People forget that the first few years with the Colts, Polian signed a lot of free agents, Braztke, King, Wooten, Royal, Lane, Burris, Poole, Cota, Hollier, Saturday, etc.  Polian had same approach as Grigs has taken... fill in the D with free agents while trying to build a young group around the franchise QB.  Grigs has had a bit more moeny to play with because the Cap is higher now and a tem doesn't have to have their rookie first round pick use up 20% of the cap any more.  But comparing Grig's approach and Polian's approach in the first couple of years they are very similar.

[Mameluc]

I don't think GM/talent evaluation is the issue.  I think we have plenty of talent on the team, but (for what could be a variety of reasons) the on-the-field product doesn't match the talent level.  It could be due to bad schemes, bad coaching, etc., but I don't think talent evaluation is the issue

i think this a first for me, but i disagree with you.

we lack playmakers all over the field

 

what talent? I mean i liked last draft, but his FA sucked, and this last Draft while still early doesnt look good right now.

We should had gotten much more than just regular players from FA. I like RJF, Cherilus, Thomas, Toler, Walden and Landry. I think they are just fine but thats it.  

we got 2 injury prone players who both have been missing games,  and while Toler is an upgrade over Vaughn when he has played is not like he has shutdown people. Landry has shown flashes but also has been just ok. I guess thomas is no fault of Grigson cause he had no injury history. DHB just sucks. Cherilus was overpayed but is ok i guess. Walden is overpayed but ok also.

My point is we could have done much more than just Ok, i dont think the free agency propelled the team like it should have. They spent millions on the OL and it is still our weakest unit. The trade for T rich (and while im one of the few who still believe he might turn it on next season) looks worse and worse as games go by.

I think Grigson tried to outsmart people by going hipster and not taking the big names (which is fine i dont want names just because of it..iexample Paul Kruger i thought he sucked and he hasnt lived up to it with the browns), but he also took some werd chances.

 

and the draft class hasnt contributed. Werner is still adapting, thomas doesnt even suit up same with the DE we got (forgot his name). Only our Guard plays

[Coltsfan911]

Nooooooooo.....

[CoachLite]

I don't think GM/talent evaluation is the issue.  I think we have plenty of talent on the team, but (for what could be a variety of reasons) the on-the-field product doesn't match the talent level.  It could be due to bad schemes, bad coaching, etc., but I don't think talent evaluation is the issue

 

I would tend to agree, but individual talent is not the primary factor in a team's performance.  If that were the case, many teams shouldn't perform as well as they do. Talent only comes into play when all other things are equal.

 

Many of us have been critical of Satele and McGlynn's play, and for good reason.  It may have nothing to do with their talent levels, though, but in the roles they are tasked to play within the scheme. Part of that task is in the execution of techniques.  Furthermore, if they are inadequate in that role, an overall lack of trust and confidence affects the roles of other players (and coaches). Luck is going to hurry his reads / passes even before the ball is snapped. A player can't do his job if he is worrying about the guy next to him.  My criticism has been that the roles haven't been changed to fit the players, or the players changed to fit the roles. That is a coaching problem.

 

The spreading lack of trust and confidence is a killer for a team. Just like the reasons above, it's not the talent of our coaches I worry about, it's their inexperience to overcome the challenges above in an NFL game context.  Remember Jim Caldwell's "deer-in-the-headlights look"?  Same thing.

[Blueblazes]

the bottomline for Polian is that he brought a winner to Indy that lasted from '99-'10 (with one season as an exception). This is an outstanding record. However, if you really look at it, the amount of true game changing players that he brought in was his achilles. Yes, he drafted Peyton Manning which really is the reason we were so good for so long. He drafted Reggie Wayne (HOF) and found Jeff Saturday (above average). Dallas Clark was a flash for a few seasons (awesome but only a few seasons of it). He drafted Edgerrin James but honestly, we could have kept Marshall Faulk so that's less than a wash in my book. On defense, he drafted Freeney and Mathis and Sanders (only 2.5 seasons of greatness). You can argue that he had a lot of contributors and yes some above average contributors, but honestly, thats 7 game changers in 12 seasons and only 5 that were game changers for a full career. 5! and he had 12 seasons to find 5 game changers! He never fixed the defense--yes we were top 10-15 a few years but never feared. I am hoping that most of you could just luck into attaining 1 game changer ever 2-3 years. So yes, the bottomline was outstanding, but as 2011 proved, Peyton was most of the reason the bottomline was that good for so long.

[Jason_]

i think this a first for me, but i disagree with you.

we lack playmakers all over the field

 

what talent? I mean i liked last draft, but his FA sucked, and this last Draft while still early doesnt look good right now.

We should had gotten much more than just regular players from FA. I like RJF, Cherilus, Thomas, Toler, Walden and Landry. I think they are just fine but thats it.  

we got 2 injury prone players who both have been missing games,  and while Toler is an upgrade over Vaughn when he has played is not like he has shutdown people. Landry has shown flashes but also has been just ok. I guess thomas is no fault of Grigson cause he had no injury history. DHB just sucks. Cherilus was overpayed but is ok i guess. Walden is overpayed but ok also.

My point is we could have done much more than just Ok, i dont think the free agency propelled the team like it should have. They spent millions on the OL and it is still our weakest unit. The trade for T rich (and while im one of the few who still believe he might turn it on next season) looks worse and worse as games go by.

I think Grigson tried to outsmart people by going hipster and not taking the big names (which is fine i dont want names just because of it..iexample Paul Kruger i thought he sucked and he hasnt lived up to it with the browns), but he also took some werd chances.

 

and the draft class hasnt contributed. Werner is still adapting, thomas doesnt even suit up same with the DE we got (forgot his name). Only our Guard plays

 

 

I actually liked Grigson's approach to this past Free agency period. Every team needs to have both role players and playmakers.  Paying for a playmaker in free agency can get outrageous...see contracts of Mike Wallace, Paul Kruger etc.  Grigson went after mostly role players in free agency because he could get them without having to drastically over pay for them.  Then he went looking for playmakers in the draft.  In the 2012 draft he went almost entirely trying to find playmakers like Luck, Allen, Fleener, HIlton, Brazill etc.  In the 2013 draft he did have to spend a couple of picks on the OL for developmental talent/depth but he also went after Werner, Hughes and Boyette who all have playmaker potential.  

 

My only complaint with this past free agency period was that I would have liked for him to have gone ahead and spent some money on another proven OG.  

[SilentHill]

Polian is poopoo

[rittdk01]

Get real dude.  Polian was good for a time but got old and made bad decisions the last few years he was working.  There's a reason he's a bitter commentator and not a GM with his son turning the Jags around.

[FicmanS]

Not a bit

[adamthyst]

Nope, not at all.

[corgi]

Yes like I miss the flu that I had last winter.

[wordofmouth]

I miss Polian, he was an excellent GM.  His biggest issue that I didn't like was he gave too much power to his son who, IMO didn't earn it.  I like Grigson as well finding gems like Hilton, Thornton, Allen, Ballard, etc shows he can find talent in the later rounds.

 

But mainly I wanted to talk about the bolded part.  People forget that the first few years with the Colts, Polian signed a lot of free agents, Braztke, King, Wooten, Royal, Lane, Burris, Poole, Cota, Hollier, Saturday, etc.  Polian had same approach as Grigs has taken... fill in the D with free agents while trying to build a young group around the franchise QB.  Grigs has had a bit more moeny to play with because the Cap is higher now and a tem doesn't have to have their rookie first round pick use up 20% of the cap any more.  But comparing Grig's approach and Polian's approach in the first couple of years they are very similar.

 

Very good post!  You are 100% correct.

 

In a couple years we just might miss Polian, but I think Grigson has done and will continue to do a very good job. Despite the revisionist history, Polian was an outstanding GM who made the fatal flaw of promoting his son. His time was up, and now it is Grigson's  time. He will make mistakes ( I think Richardson will prove to be one) and he will have successes ( see Coffee's list)

but what will determine his overall success is whether or not he can build a culture of excellence that permeates the entire organization. Polian was able to do that, although the rise of Chris P, and the legitimate resentment that went with it, eroded that.

I get the feeling that Grigson and Co. are doing the same thing. Time will tell, but I am optimistic.

[lollygagger8]

I literally jumped up and down in pure and utter glee that day I heard Na'Polian was fired. 

[Mameluc]

I actually liked Grigson's approach to this past Free agency period. Every team needs to have both role players and playmakers.  Paying for a playmaker in free agency can get outrageous...see contracts of Mike Wallace, Paul Kruger etc.  Grigson went after mostly role players in free agency because he could get them without having to drastically over pay for them.  Then he went looking for playmakers in the draft.  In the 2012 draft he went almost entirely trying to find playmakers like Luck, Allen, Fleener, HIlton, Brazill etc.  In the 2013 draft he did have to spend a couple of picks on the OL for developmental talent/depth but he also went after Werner, Hughes and Boyette who all have playmaker potential.  

 

My only complaint with this past free agency period was that I would have liked for him to have gone ahead and spent some money on another proven OG.  

i understand that but we overpayed also for those players ...the good thing is that all seems to be easy to get out the contract (not big cap hits from what i understand, which is little)...i wasnt looking for superstars either, there wasnt actually. But Walden was overpayed and he wasnt brought here as a role player, neither was Toler. Cherilus was overpayed considering what other Tackles costed but he looks like the best IMO.

 

 

All im saying is he went with so much unknown players that i wish we had gone, even if it meant a little more money, for something more concrete. Like vasquez, heck i diidnt like DRC, but he seems just fine. Levitre, Desmond...etc

 

Regarding the draft, im not saying they suck heck is still theirr rookie year. But it is not encouraging when only 1 of those is actually contributing.

[Jason_]

i understand that but we overpayed also for those players ...the good thing is that all seems to be easy to get out the contract (not big cap hits from what i understand, which is little)...i wasnt looking for superstars either, there wasnt actually. But Walden was overpayed and he wasnt brought here as a role player, neither was Toler. Cherilus was overpayed considering what other Tackles costed but he looks like the best IMO.

 

 

All im saying is he went with so much unknown players that i wish we had gone, even if it meant a little more money, for something more concrete. Like vasquez, heck i diidnt like DRC, but he seems just fine. Levitre, Desmond...etc

 

Regarding the draft, im not saying they suck heck is still theirr rookie year. But it is not encouraging when only 1 of those is actually contributing.

 

 

Walden's role is almost the definition of a role player.  His primary job is to set the edge.  In doing so he's not going to compile a lot of flashy stats.  If he's doing his job right then you're likely not going to hear his name called very often.  And Superman has pointed out a number of times that his contract is on par with other 3-4 Sam LB's in the league.  Grigson may have overpaid somewhat for some of the guys but he got the guys he wanted and that's the most important part.  And even if he did overpay somewhat, it's nothing compared to what he would have had to have over paid for a proven playmaker.  

 

Plus, as you said, the majority of the contracts were structured in a way that they can be terminated early without much of a cap penalty.  So they're basically "prove yourself" contracts.  If the players come in and do what they're supposed to do then they'll get the money they signed for. If they don't, then they'll be cut with little repercussions.

 

And as I said before, I would have preferred they had brought in a proven OG.  I like Thomas but there were other, more proven OG's available and the one place that I would have preferred as many proven guys as possible is the OL.  So far though I like all of the other players they brought in.  I think in the long run we'll see that this past free agency period was overall a homerun provide Toler and Thomas don't have recurring injury issues.

[Mameluc]

Walden's role is almost the definition of a role player.  His primary job is to set the edge.  In doing so he's not going to compile a lot of flashy stats.  If he's doing his job right then you're likely not going to hear his name called very often.  And Superman has pointed out a number of times that his contract is on par with other 3-4 Sam LB's in the league.  Grigson may have overpaid somewhat for some of the guys but he got the guys he wanted and that's the most important part.  And even if he did overpay somewhat, it's nothing compared to what he would have had to have over paid for a proven playmaker.  

 

Plus, as you said, the majority of the contracts were structured in a way that they can be terminated early without much of a cap penalty.  So they're basically "prove yourself" contracts.  If the players come in and do what they're supposed to do then they'll get the money they signed for. If they don't, then they'll be cut with little repercussions.

 

And as I said before, I would have preferred they had brought in a proven OG.  I like Thomas but there were other, more proven OG's available and the one place that I would have preferred as many proven guys as possible is the OL.  So far though I like all of the other players they brought in.  I think in the long run we'll see that this past free agency period was overall a homerun provide Toler and Thomas don't have recurring injury issues.

can you really coun on that? Toler has missed 26 games on 4 seasons. that is one of my points with risks. Even if he doesnt get injured, the dude is ok but thats about it, he is no world beater. People were exploiting him.

 

And i dont agree one bit with Walden. I get the whole set the edge thing. but he is also on third downs, and he is also rushing hte passer...he is not just playing the set the edge  role type of player...he rotates some with Werner but he isnt just a role player he is there on all type of situations.

[Jason_]

can you really coun on that? Toler has missed 26 games on 4 seasons. that is one of my points with risks. Even if he doesnt get injured, the dude is ok but thats about it, he is no world beater. People were exploiting him.

 

And i dont agree one bit with Walden. I get the whole set the edge thing. but he is also on third downs, and he is also rushing hte passer...he is not just playing the set the edge  role type of player...he rotates some with Werner but he isnt just a role player he is there on all type of situations.

 

Walden was mostly rushing the passer when Werner was out with injury.  Prior to Werner's injury, Walden would come out on obvious passing downs so that Werner and Mathis could rush from the edges.  Sure, there are going to be times when Walden will rush the passer but that's not his primary role in this defense and on obvious passing downs, Mathis and Werner will get priority.

 

I also disagree with Toler being just ok.  I think he was playing pretty well, especially for his first year in this defense.  Vontae wasn't really playing lights out last season either, especially early on but he got better as the season progressed and was doing even better this year.  Yes, Toler has been getting picked on more than Davis but that's because Davis had been blanketing the receivers he was covering.  I don't think it's mere coincidence that the secondary's play started to suffer around the same time that Toler went out.  I think Davis, Bethea and Landry had a much higher confidence in Toler than they do Vaughn and their play is suffering.  I'm very curious to see if the overall play of the secondary improves dramatically once Toler returns. 

 

As for Toler's injury history...all I can say is I would assume that Grigson and Co. would have taken that into consideration and believed that the injuries he's sustained in the past have completely healed and will not return.  Just because a player suffers injuries a couple of years in a row doesn't necessarily mean that player will be injury prone for the rest of his career.  Look at Matthew Stafford.  He was plagued with injuries his first 2 years but he hasn't missed a game since then. 

[smittywerb]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!  I do not miss Polian AT ALL!  I don't miss the vanilla defense we had, I don't miss the YEARS of failed drafts, I don't miss the concept of a team being built FOR one player instead of AROUND that player, I don't miss not using FA to our advantage, etc.

 

People, get a grip.  We have lost 4 games (2 of them winnable) and lead our division and can possibly end up with a high seed.  Yes, we are on a 2 game skid, but I do not blame the front office/coaching staff for this, I blame injuries.  We are pretty banged up and have lost a good number of impact players on BOTH sides of the ball.  We were rolling until players started dropping.  

 

Has T-Rich panned out?  No.  Do we have one of the crappiest lines in the NFL?  Yes.  

 

This thing is going to take time.  Some of you forget we gutted this roster out last offseason.  To think we would be SB contenders is only hurting yourselves.  Making the playoffs is an amazing accomplishment in itself.

 

Just be grateful.  You guys are impatient and personally I think some of you have some bias towards this regime.  Some of you were so quick to give Donald Brown 3 YEARS to pan out but T-Rich didn't even half a season before you guys through him under the bus.  Give it a break and enjoy the ride.  Believe it or not, we are still rebuilding.  We need to build our depth up.

[Mameluc]

Walden was mostly rushing the passer when Werner was out with injury.  Prior to Werner's injury, Walden would come out on obvious passing downs so that Werner and Mathis could rush from the edges.  Sure, there are going to be times when Walden will rush the passer but that's not his primary role in this defense and on obvious passing downs, Mathis and Werner will get priority.

 

I also disagree with Toler being just ok.  I think he was playing pretty well, especially for his first year in this defense.  Vontae wasn't really playing lights out last season either, especially early on but he got better as the season progressed and was doing even better this year.  Yes, Toler has been getting picked on more than Davis but that's because Davis had been blanketing the receivers he was covering.  I don't think it's mere coincidence that the secondary's play started to suffer around the same time that Toler went out.  I think Davis, Bethea and Landry had a much higher confidence in Toler than they do Vaughn and their play is suffering.  I'm very curious to see if the overall play of the secondary improves dramatically once Toler returns. 

 

As for Toler's injury history...all I can say is I would assume that Grigson and Co. would have taken that into consideration and believed that the injuries he's sustained in the past have completely healed and will not return.  Just because a player suffers injuries a couple of years in a row doesn't necessarily mean that player will be injury prone for the rest of his career.  Look at Matthew Stafford.  He was plagued with injuries his first 2 years but he hasn't missed a game since then. 

i know the team defensively went downhill..i even sayed it on another thread, so i agree on that. Of course everyone trusts more on him than on Vaughn. He is a much better option obviously. I'm ok with his play. But thats about it.  The dude has given his share of plays i just havent seen enough of him to be completely confident. from what i hve seen he makes some and gets burned also. (toler).

 

And we have focused way too much on those 2 lol. DHB just sucks. RJF i like him, but  he is no role he plays all downs. He has been ok but the DL needs to dominate much more if we ever are going to become a dominant Defense

 

 

btw i have to go back to work so bye for a while lol

[ColtsPacersfan]

Is this an early April Fool's Joke?

[Michael Myers]

Hell no.

[21isSuperman]

i think this a first for me, but i disagree with you.

we lack playmakers all over the field

 

what talent? I mean i liked last draft, but his FA sucked, and this last Draft while still early doesnt look good right now.

We should had gotten much more than just regular players from FA. I like RJF, Cherilus, Thomas, Toler, Walden and Landry. I think they are just fine but thats it.  

we got 2 injury prone players who both have been missing games,  and while Toler is an upgrade over Vaughn when he has played is not like he has shutdown people. Landry has shown flashes but also has been just ok. I guess thomas is no fault of Grigson cause he had no injury history. DHB just sucks. Cherilus was overpayed but is ok i guess. Walden is overpayed but ok also.

My point is we could have done much more than just Ok, i dont think the free agency propelled the team like it should have. They spent millions on the OL and it is still our weakest unit. The trade for T rich (and while im one of the few who still believe he might turn it on next season) looks worse and worse as games go by.

I think Grigson tried to outsmart people by going hipster and not taking the big names (which is fine i dont want names just because of it..iexample Paul Kruger i thought he sucked and he hasnt lived up to it with the browns), but he also took some werd chances.

 

and the draft class hasnt contributed. Werner is still adapting, thomas doesnt even suit up same with the DE we got (forgot his name). Only our Guard plays

I think it comes down to coaching.  We have talent, but we don't put it on the field.  Satele is not the option at C and I believe we saw McGlynn play really well at C in the San Fran game.  For whatever reason, the OL seems to perform really well without Satele; I remember some really good OL play last year when Shipley played C.  And for some reason, the coaches refuse to take Satele out.  Play calling could also be an issue.  Trent is clearly very explosive and hard to tackle, so why not run some screens and flares with him to get him the ball in space?

 

I do think we went a little overboard in FA and I'm not a fan of that.  But I don't think it's deniable that many of the players have been good additions.  Cherilus has been a huge improvement over Link/Winston Justice; Walden might have been overpaid, but there's a big drop off from when he plays to Werner getting the start last game; Howell and Landry have both played really well at SS.

 

My issue on both sides of the ball is coaching.  Pep's play calling has shown flashes, but isn't always there.  Trent is talented, but not properly utilized.  Brown is definitely the hot hand right now, but the coaches don't give him much playing time even though he can pass block and can catch the ball.  On the defensive side of the ball, it's terrible.  We can generate a pass rush, but our CBs are nowhere to be found when receivers catch a ball.  And the match ups are brutal; in the Titans game alone, I remember seeing Freeman and Angerer continually burned by Wright and Walker.  And yet, Manusky didn't make any changes.  I think coaching is holding the team back right now.

 

I would tend to agree, but individual talent is not the primary factor in a team's performance.  If that were the case, many teams shouldn't perform as well as they do. Talent only comes into play when all other things are equal.

 

Many of us have been critical of Satele and McGlynn's play, and for good reason.  It may have nothing to do with their talent levels, though, but in the roles they are tasked to play within the scheme. Part of that task is in the execution of techniques.  Furthermore, if they are inadequate in that role, an overall lack of trust and confidence affects the roles of other players (and coaches). Luck is going to hurry his reads / passes even before the ball is snapped. A player can't do his job if he is worrying about the guy next to him.  My criticism has been that the roles haven't been changed to fit the players, or the players changed to fit the roles. That is a coaching problem.

 

The spreading lack of trust and confidence is a killer for a team. Just like the reasons above, it's not the talent of our coaches I worry about, it's their inexperience to overcome the challenges above in an NFL game context.  Remember Jim Caldwell's "deer-in-the-headlights look"?  Same thing.

Well said!

[mahagga73]

I know he could be stubborn and had his flaws, but it's hard to argue that he wasn't the best talent evaluator and general manager/club president the Colts had ever seen, at least until he started to turn things over to his son Chris towards the end. He didn't like to spend money on free agents and believed in building through the draft. Ten years of excellence and 2 Super Bowls is not easy.

I'd say Grigson could learn a few things from him, especially when it comes to trading away draft picks. Building through free agency is fine in moderation, but it will eventually lead to cap problems.

No thanks. Having the 1 pick and getting PM was the main reason for the long term success of the last decade and of course he does deserve credit for that, or not drafting Leaf . He drafted pretty well for the first half or so of his tenure considering where they were always drafting. The last several drafts were absolutely terrible and resulted in , minus Manning, one of the worst teams ever seen in the NFL. It was time to make a change

[esmort]

i think this a first for me, but i disagree with you.

we lack playmakers all over the field

 

what talent? I mean i liked last draft, but his FA sucked, and this last Draft while still early doesnt look good right now.

We should had gotten much more than just regular players from FA. I like RJF, Cherilus, Thomas, Toler, Walden and Landry. I think they are just fine but thats it.  

we got 2 injury prone players who both have been missing games,  and while Toler is an upgrade over Vaughn when he has played is not like he has shutdown people. Landry has shown flashes but also has been just ok. I guess thomas is no fault of Grigson cause he had no injury history. DHB just sucks. Cherilus was overpayed but is ok i guess. Walden is overpayed but ok also.

My point is we could have done much more than just Ok, i dont think the free agency propelled the team like it should have. They spent millions on the OL and it is still our weakest unit. The trade for T rich (and while im one of the few who still believe he might turn it on next season) looks worse and worse as games go by.

I think Grigson tried to outsmart people by going hipster and not taking the big names (which is fine i dont want names just because of it..iexample Paul Kruger i thought he sucked and he hasnt lived up to it with the browns), but he also took some werd chances.

 

and the draft class hasnt contributed. Werner is still adapting, thomas doesnt even suit up same with the DE we got (forgot his name). Only our Guard plays

I think Grigson did pretty good in FA, I would have liked to get a couple more players for depth including another OG.

 

But, with all the positions we needed to fill who would you have rather gotten in FA than who we signed? That was available and didn't sign super high contracts?

 

Cherilus is one one of the best Tackles in the league.

 

Landry is being hamstrung by the "powder puff" rules the NFL is trying to implement.

 

DHB was a gamble, but one who would have paid off big if it would have hit ... what other WR was available that was worth the price?

 

 

I actually liked Grigson's approach to this past Free agency period. Every team needs to have both role players and playmakers.  Paying for a playmaker in free agency can get outrageous...see contracts of Mike Wallace, Paul Kruger etc.  Grigson went after mostly role players in free agency because he could get them without having to drastically over pay for them.  Then he went looking for playmakers in the draft.  In the 2012 draft he went almost entirely trying to find playmakers like Luck, Allen, Fleener, HIlton, Brazill etc.  In the 2013 draft he did have to spend a couple of picks on the OL for developmental talent/depth but he also went after Werner, Hughes and Boyette who all have playmaker potential.  

 

My only complaint with this past free agency period was that I would have liked for him to have gone ahead and spent some money on another proven OG.  

 

^^^ Agree ... and definitely would have liked to have seen another OG and maybe CB

 

i understand that but we overpayed also for those players ...the good thing is that all seems to be easy to get out the contract (not big cap hits from what i understand, which is little)...i wasnt looking for superstars either, there wasnt actually. But Walden was overpayed and he wasnt brought here as a role player, neither was Toler. Cherilus was overpayed considering what other Tackles costed but he looks like the best IMO.

 

 

All im saying is he went with so much unknown players that i wish we had gone, even if it meant a little more money, for something more concrete. Like vasquez, heck i diidnt like DRC, but he seems just fine. Levitre, Desmond...etc

 

Regarding the draft, im not saying they suck heck is still theirr rookie year. But it is not encouraging when only 1 of those is actually contributing.

 

 

I believe Vasquez was offered a deal, I think he wanted to go to Denver.  So we would have had to over pay ridiculously to get him

[gspdx]

Polian in his early years did a great job to build a competitive team.  His son wasn't so good.  I appreciate all that Bill did but he had a few misses on personnel - just like every other GM to head team.

 

Grigson has done a good job also but has obviously had a few misses.  People seem to think it is so easy to scout, find, attract, and retain top talent all while maintaining the financials required of the league. 

 

Polian did a really good job early on, but over time paying for our stars hurt the bottom line and limited the ability of the team to build depth.  Grigson is still a young GM and I think he has lots of talent, but not every acquisition is going to be a gem in the rough.

 

I have said this before too - we think all of our moves are going to work out and our team is going to drastically improve.  Do people think other teams are just siting around waiting for us to get better?  They are drafting new players, picking up free agents, and watching their young guys mature too. 

 

I wouldn't compare Polian to Grigson just like I wouldn't compare Manning to Luck.  Give this team time to mature and grow and enjoy the ride.  I remember when Colts fans were excited to get a nationally televised game.  Now too many folks act like we are entitled to a superbowl team.  This is only year 2.  I was expecting this team to be competitive in year 3 yet we are probably going to the playoffs again.

 

Relax and enjoy the ride!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oSFYxDGKy8

[Jason_]

i know the team defensively went downhill..i even sayed it on another thread, so i agree on that. Of course everyone trusts more on him than on Vaughn. He is a much better option obviously. I'm ok with his play. But thats about it.  The dude has given his share of plays i just havent seen enough of him to be completely confident. from what i hve seen he makes some and gets burned also. (toler).

 

And we have focused way too much on those 2 lol. DHB just sucks. RJF i like him, but  he is no role he plays all downs. He has been ok but the DL needs to dominate much more if we ever are going to become a dominant Defense

 

 

btw i have to go back to work so bye for a while lol

 

DHB was a mistake, but it was still a risk worth taking imo.  He was signed to a one year, "prove you can be better than you have been" type of contract.  Had he shown he could improve and not have drop issues anymore then he could have probably earned himself  a long-term contract with the colts.  That obviously hasn't happened and I'm sure he won't be back.  Still though, there was no real reason to break the bank for a WR at the time because we already had Hilton and Brazill from last year's draft plus Wayne coming back.  I do think WR will be a much higher priority this coming offseason.

 

As for RJF, I don't know what you mean by ", but  he is no role he plays all downs.".  Role players aren't necessarily one or two down players.  Some role players are 3 down guys.  In a 3-4 front he is more a role player than anything because the DL, in our defense, is meant to command double teams first and make a play if they can second.  However in a 4 man front in a nickel or dime package then his first priority, like everyone else on the DL in that situation, is to get to the QB.  So he's kind of a role player/playmaker hybrid similar to Redding.  And RJF started the season kind of average but he's improved from week to week to the point that he got his 2 sacks and a pass defensed against the Cardinals.  IMO he so far has earned every penny of his contract and if he continues to improve going forward and can maintain the level of play he had against the cards then there really shouldn't be anyone complaining about his contract.

[Superman]

DHB was a mistake, but it was still a risk worth taking imo.  He was signed to a one year, "prove you can be better than you have been" type of contract.  Had he shown he could improve and not have drop issues anymore then he could have probably earned himself  a long-term contract with the colts.  That obviously hasn't happened and I'm sure he won't be back.  Still though, there was no real reason to break the bank for a WR at the time because we already had Hilton and Brazill from last year's draft plus Wayne coming back.  I do think WR will be a much higher priority this coming offseason.

 

As for RJF, I don't know what you mean by ", but  he is no role he plays all downs.".  Role players aren't necessarily one or two down players.  Some role players are 3 down guys.  In a 3-4 front he is more a role player than anything because the DL, in our defense, is meant to command double teams first and make a play if they can second.  However in a 4 man front in a nickel or dime package then his first priority, like everyone else on the DL in that situation, is to get to the QB.  So he's kind of a role player/playmaker hybrid similar to Redding.  And RJF started the season kind of average but he's improved from week to week to the point that he got his 2 sacks and a pass defensed against the Cardinals.  IMO he so far has earned every penny of his contract and if he continues to improve going forward and can maintain the level of play he had against the cards then there really shouldn't be anyone complaining about his contract.

 

Great post. I'm seriously confused by all the complaints about how we attacked this offseason. I'm gonna get a few things off my chest here:

 

RJF has been a really good addition to our front. He gets penetration, he's an every down guy, he can play two or three different positions on our line. What's the problem? People complain about how we focused so much on stopping the run, but then say we should have signed Terrance Knighton instead of RJF?

 

DHB doesn't even matter at this point. The signing didn't work out, and in hindsight, we'd have been better off having a backup plan to bringing in a questionable player like him. But this move hardly set the team back, and if not for Reggie's injury, it wouldn't be such a sore spot. 

 

I've seen people here and throughout the blogosphere complaining about Cherilus and Thomas. Like others, I would have loved to see us sign another guard, but Thomas was one of the league's best before he got hurt. That signing is not a mistake. I'd have loved to upgrade the other guard spot, but not for Levitre money, and Vasquez evidently wanted to go to the Broncos. We also drafted two interior linemen, and while Thornton hasn't been great, he's been decent. Complaining about decent play from a rookie guard is kind of silly. I think people ought to leave Cherilus, Thomas and Thornton out of their criticisms, and focus on Satele and McGlynn. But even then, if Thomas were still on the field, maybe we'd have gotten Thornton on the field and replaced Satele or McGlynn eventually.

 

And of course, there's the Erik Walden complaint. Even now, after seeing how poorly our other OLBs were on the edge against the Cardinals, people are still complaining about $4m/year for Walden. Firstly, that's slighly above average for a Sam backer equivalent in a 3-4. Look at Paul Kruger's contract vs. his production. Get over the money. Second, Walden has done what he was brought here to do, and in recent weeks, has even shown some pass rush ability that I didn't expect. When you're hoping for the big name -- Kruger, Avril, etc. -- and you get Erik Walden, there's outrage. But it was highly misplaced to begin with, and the residual outrage is even worse, now that we've seen how well he fits our defensive front. Colts fans, stop complaining about Erik Walden. It makes you look silly.

 

To me, the two big mistakes Grigson and Pagano made were 1) trading a first for Richardson, and 2) hiring Pep Hamilton. I hope both of these guys improve as time goes on, since we're so heavily invested in them. I don't want to get into a turnstile coordinator situation, so I'm in favor of keeping Hamilton next year. But he has to evolve as a coordinator, and quickly. And Richardson is a good back; I don't have a problem with the player, just the cost, and it's too late to do anything about that at this point. I also think we should have kept Jerry Hughes as a rotational pass rusher. Mathis is the only real edge rusher we have, and that hurts our pass rush. (To be fair, we obviously hoped that Sidbury and Werner could help in that area, and injuries have hampered that significantly. But that's why they say you can never have too many pass rushers. There was no reason to get rid of Jerry Hughes.)

 

I'm not a blind Ryan Grigson supporter. He's made mistakes, and that's not surprising. But I think he's done an excellent job of attacking the team's weaknesses, using his assets to bring in players, and spreading his resources around in a way that leaves him with future flexibility. He's confident, without being arrogant. He works his butt off. We can be critical of some of his moves, for sure, but comparing him with someone like Polian, who refused to adjust his approach and let his team erode, is just silly. Again, it makes Colts fans look bad.

 

Grigson's focus for 2014 should be as follows: 1) Upgrade the offensive line; 2) Find another receiver; 3) Add a safety to take over for Bethea; 4) Find another pass rusher; 5) Add another corner. The foundation for the team is sound. We just need better line play and some playmakers at various positions.

[husker61]

Great post. I'm seriously confused by all the complaints about how we attacked this offseason. I'm gonna get a few things off my chest here:

 

RJF has been a really good addition to our front. He gets penetration, he's an every down guy, he can play two or three different positions on our line. What's the problem? People complain about how we focused so much on stopping the run, but then say we should have signed Terrance Knighton instead of RJF?

 

DHB doesn't even matter at this point. The signing didn't work out, and in hindsight, we'd have been better off having a backup plan to bringing in a questionable player like him. But this move hardly set the team back, and if not for Reggie's injury, it wouldn't be such a sore spot. 

 

I've seen people here and throughout the blogosphere complaining about Cherilus and Thomas. Like others, I would have loved to see us sign another guard, but Thomas was one of the league's best before he got hurt. That signing is not a mistake. I'd have loved to upgrade the other guard spot, but not for Levitre money, and Vasquez evidently wanted to go to the Broncos. We also drafted two interior linemen, and while Thornton hasn't been great, he's been decent. Complaining about decent play from a rookie guard is kind of silly. I think people ought to leave Cherilus, Thomas and Thornton out of their criticisms, and focus on Satele and McGlynn. But even then, if Thomas were still on the field, maybe we'd have gotten Thornton on the field and replaced Satele or McGlynn eventually.

 

And of course, there's the Erik Walden complaint. Even now, after seeing how poorly our other OLBs were on the edge against the Cardinals, people are still complaining about $4m/year for Walden. Firstly, that's slighly above average for a Sam backer equivalent in a 3-4. Look at Paul Kruger's contract vs. his production. Get over the money. Second, Walden has done what he was brought here to do, and in recent weeks, has even shown some pass rush ability that I didn't expect. When you're hoping for the big name -- Kruger, Avril, etc. -- and you get Erik Walden, there's outrage. But it was highly misplaced to begin with, and the residual outrage is even worse, now that we've seen how well he fits our defensive front. Colts fans, stop complaining about Erik Walden. It makes you look silly.

 

To me, the two big mistakes Grigson and Pagano made were 1) trading a first for Richardson, and 2) hiring Pep Hamilton. I hope both of these guys improve as time goes on, since we're so heavily invested in them. I don't want to get into a turnstile coordinator situation, so I'm in favor of keeping Hamilton next year. But he has to evolve as a coordinator, and quickly. And Richardson is a good back; I don't have a problem with the player, just the cost, and it's too late to do anything about that at this point. I also think we should have kept Jerry Hughes as a rotational pass rusher. Mathis is the only real edge rusher we have, and that hurts our pass rush. (To be fair, we obviously hoped that Sidbury and Werner could help in that area, and injuries have hampered that significantly. But that's why they say you can never have too many pass rushers. There was no reason to get rid of Jerry Hughes.)

 

 

 

very well said (i left out the last two paragraphs).

[Superman]

very well said (i left out the last two paragraphs).

 

Yeah, it got kind of long on me (insert pun). I could have kept going.