Beginning of the end for New England [Merge]

[19colt]

Bruce Allen

@bruceallen

 

Source: ESPN readying new hit piece on Bill Belichick, Tom Brady and Robert Kraft set to publish tomorrow morning at 8am. The topic will be a power struggle among the trio as to who deserves the most credit for the dynasty.

Bruce Allen  @bruceallen

1h

The article claims that the rift is so severe many Patriots feel this is the last year together for the trio. Also that Brady went to Kraft to force Belichick to trade Jimmy G. ESPN is planning a full day of promotion tomorrow for the article and its author @SethWickersham

 

Mod edit (edited to add link): http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle

 

[oldunclemark]

 troll thread.

[aaron11]

they traded JG because they dont want to pay him 

[19colt]

30 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

 troll thread.

 

Not sure how? It is a verified twitter account that I cut and pasted. Several journalists are tweeting about it now. Mods can delete if the article tomorrow is just hot air but it would seem from the reports that Bill didn't want to trade JG. 

[BloodyChamp]

It's been whispered back and forth for a while now. Anyway nothing will convince me that either of them are jack without Bill Belichik. 

[ReMeDy]

https://i.giphy.com/media/3oriNMAfe9cejfe4SY/giphy.mp4

 

Brady: "Jimmy, did you hear!? You've been traded! YAY!"
Garoppolo: "Yay! Wait, what!?"

[John Waylon]

I mean, there's the whole thing with Brady's trainer that's been going on. Who knows how true this is or not. 

[John Waylon]

Here's a logical argument against this story: 

 

if the the relationship between Brady, Kraft, and BB is irreparable beyond this year who should stay?

 

Brady, Kraft, and the Patriots under a new coach sticking to the same system are still a powerhouse. BB, Kraft, and Brian Hoyer probably miss the playoffs. 

 

So wouldn't it make sense for them to have McDaniels and Patricia unavailable for interviews until that situation sorts itself out? If they were to oust BB one way or another who better to take over and keep the last couple years of Brady's career as fruitful as they have been than one of those two? As it stands now they could lose both, and BB. 

 

I dunno. I'm not gonna say it's all smoke and no fire, but I'm not convinced the house is burning down. 

[Luck 4 president]

Lots of interesting things in the article that was just released. Idk if they’re true but I hope they are for our sake. 

The article summarized:

Brady and his trainer have created friction between the team and Belichick.

Brady viewed Garoppolo as a threat and forced a trade. He refused to help Garoppolo at practice and refused him treatment with his trainer. Kraft sided with Brady over Belichick.

Belichick sees the end coming for the dynasty and is now prepping his assistants for HC jobs (McDaniels and Patricia) and chose to trade Garoppolo to the 9ers because he wants to see him succeed under shanahan even though he could have gotten much more out of him. He wanted to keep him but kraft sided with Brady on the issue.

[esmort]

6 hours ago, aaron11 said:

they traded JG because they dont want to pay him 

 

According to the the ESPN article they tried to pay him like 4yr @ 17-18 million a year, but he declined...  presumably because they couldn't tell him how long before he would be starting. Brady cried to Kraft because he felt threatened and Kraft forced BB to trade him. 

[Narcosys]

Ummm...That's easy. Bill belichick. 

 

How did the Patriots do when Brady was sidelined a full season, pretty sure it was 11-5. How about when even he was suspended and they went through 2 QBs? Pretty sure 3-1. I have always believed that Brady is a product of a great system and coach and that he would not be what he is today if he was on any other team.

 

Who decides who to cut, pick up, and draft? Belichick, not Kraft.

[Narcosys]

37 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

According to the the ESPN article they tried to pay him like 4yr @ 17-18 million a year, but he declined...  presumably because they couldn't tell him how long before he would be starting. Brady cried to Kraft because he felt threatened and Kraft forced BB to trade him. 

Link?

[Surge89]

18 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

Link?

 

Sure

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle

[Surge89]

This story has been around for months and it's very surprising it's barely catching on...  in summary:

 

(Past year)

1. Brady and Guerrero are pushing their TB12 "lifestyle" onto the Patriots org.  At the beginning BB was ok with it but he quickly found the medical staff of the org and Guerrero were in constant argument.   

 

2. TB12 caused nothing but division in the Patriots players as Brady pushed for his "treatments" instead of med staff. 

 

3. BB felt like there needed to be steps taken to cement Jimmy G as the heir.  Brady wanted none of it.  Kraft took his side.

 

4.  (This last part intrigues me but I'm not sure it is true)  article states or well implies that BB in an attempt to tear down the org traded away both QBs for nothing (as per orders from Kraft) and encourage his assistants to take HC jobs and even go out of his way to endorse. 

 

For sure the first 2 bullets are true and have been around for almost a year but the last 2 bullets are truly interesting.  If BB truly was done with Brady and had a golden ticket in JG (which is definitely plausible) then either Kraft doesn't agree with BB or Brady really did create an ultimatum which forced the hand. Either way there can't be a good feeling in the org in regards to BB since it seems he was right about JG.

 

The last point is interesting as well but doesn't really give BB an exit strategy to continue coaching. So either this is his swan song? Or maybe he just wants to be a GM? Or if course common sense would say he's done.   But who knows...

[Jules]

I knew Brady had to be secretly jealous of Jimmy G. Cause Jimmy G is younger, hotter and just the best thing going on right now at QB. Yes Brady is the potential GOAT but never underestimate the power of the male ego. 

 

It just still baffles me all to heck how they even traded that stud away for just a second rounder. I mean have you seen this dude play for the 49ers this year on a lesser team? He's awesome. And it's not like your QB is 30......he's 40. I mean I just can't grasp this logic on what the Pats plan to do if Brady ever gets hurt again or even actually ever *retires*.

 

Unless Brady never does leave. And he is the monster in the horror movie who never dies and he wins Super Bowls until he is 50. 

 

Brady and his super model wife are kinda creepy actually. I bet they like live in some futuristic mansion and stuff and have weird rituals to stay young. Maybe they are not even human!

[Jules]

3 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

This story has been around for months and it's very surprising it's barely catching on...  in summary:

 

(Past year)

1. Brady and Guerrero are pushing their TB12 "lifestyle" onto the Patriots org.  At the beginning BB was ok with it but he quickly found the medical staff of the org and Guerrero were in constant argument.   

 

2. TB12 caused nothing but division in the Patriots players as Brady pushed for his "treatments" instead of med staff. 

 

3. BB felt like there needed to be steps taken to cement Jimmy G as the heir.  Brady wanted none of it.  Kraft took his side.

 

4.  (This last part intrigues me but I'm not sure it is true)  article states or well implies that BB in an attempt to tear down the org traded away both QBs for nothing (as per orders from Kraft) and encourage his assistants to take HC jobs and even go out of his way to endorse. 

 

For sure the first 2 bullets are true and have been around for almost a year but the last 2 bullets are truly interesting.  If BB truly was done with Brady and had a golden ticket in JG (which is definitely plausible) then either Kraft doesn't agree with BB or Brady really did create an ultimatum which forced the hand. Either way there can't be a good feeling in the org in regards to BB since it seems he was right about JG.

 

The last point is interesting as well but doesn't really give BB an exit strategy to continue coaching. So either this is his swan song? Or maybe he just wants to be a GM? Or if course common sense would say he's done.   But who knows...

 

Great post.

 

[BOTT]

1 hour ago, Narcosys said:

Ummm...That's easy. Bill belichick. 

 

How did the Patriots do when Brady was sidelined a full season, pretty sure it was 11-5. How about when even he was suspended and they went through 2 QBs? Pretty sure 3-1. I have always believed that Brady is a product of a great system and coach and that he would not be what he is today if he was on any other team.

 

Who decides who to cut, pick up, and draft? Belichick, not Kraft.

The year Brady was injured the patriots went from 18-1 and a SB birth to 11-5 and lost the division to the lowly Dolphins led by tony soprono and Chad pennington. 

I'm not questioning BB greatness, but there is a line in the sand......before Brady/after Brady.

[DaveA1102]

1 hour ago, Surge89 said:

This story has been around for months and it's very surprising it's barely catching on...  in summary:

 

(Past year)

1. Brady and Guerrero are pushing their TB12 "lifestyle" onto the Patriots org.  At the beginning BB was ok with it but he quickly found the medical staff of the org and Guerrero were in constant argument.   

 

2. TB12 caused nothing but division in the Patriots players as Brady pushed for his "treatments" instead of med staff. 

 

3. BB felt like there needed to be steps taken to cement Jimmy G as the heir.  Brady wanted none of it.  Kraft took his side.

 

4.  (This last part intrigues me but I'm not sure it is true)  article states or well implies that BB in an attempt to tear down the org traded away both QBs for nothing (as per orders from Kraft) and encourage his assistants to take HC jobs and even go out of his way to endorse. 

 

For sure the first 2 bullets are true and have been around for almost a year but the last 2 bullets are truly interesting.  If BB truly was done with Brady and had a golden ticket in JG (which is definitely plausible) then either Kraft doesn't agree with BB or Brady really did create an ultimatum which forced the hand. Either way there can't be a good feeling in the org in regards to BB since it seems he was right about JG.

 

The last point is interesting as well but doesn't really give BB an exit strategy to continue coaching. So either this is his swan song? Or maybe he just wants to be a GM? Or if course common sense would say he's done.   But who knows...

 

The bolded is very interesting.  Not sure why an article like this hasn't received more attention as its quite sensationalist and also actually explains a few things, particularly the Jimmy G trade for 50c on the dollar when there was a clamouring for him in the Spring.  Also links in Guerrero and the infamous Brady outburst at McDaniels.

 

Does anyone else see the following happening.......Both assistants leave and are unsuccessful in their new roles, BB retires after another Superbowl win and NE fall apart in 2018?  BB cements his legacy forevermore as the Greatest, and spends his retirement sitting in a castle on top of a mountain drinking expensive Scotch and laughing maniacally, only breaking this cycle to watch Jimmy G and the 49ers tear the league up......a single tear of pride falls from Bill's cheek and into his Scotch, somehow enhancing the flavour.

[zibby43]

Started a new thread because the article was finally published early this AM.

 

Absolutely fascinating read.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle

[Narcosys]

3 hours ago, Surge89 said:

 

Sure

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle

Thanks, didn't realize it was within the same article. Ridiculous long read, but very interesting even if half of it may be hearsay.

[Narcosys]

2 hours ago, BOTT said:

The year Brady was injured the patriots went from 18-1 and a SB birth to 11-5 and lost the division to the lowly Dolphins led by tony soprono and Chad pennington. 

I'm not questioning BB greatness, but there is a line in the sand......before Brady/after Brady.

Or, belichick was able to go 10-6 and make the playoffs with a subpar QB in matt cassel. Brady is great, but great because of BB, not the other way around. BB can win without Tom, he can win with a second and third string QB. Like he proved this year.

 

If TB was anywhere else, he would not be what he is and he would not have nearly as many SB's, or possibly any for that matter. 

[BOTT]

8 minutes ago, Narcosys said:

Or, belichick was able to go 10-6 and make the playoffs with a subpar QB in matt cassel. Brady is great, but great because of BB, not the other way around. BB can win without Tom, he can win with a second and third string QB. Like he proved this year.

 

If TB was anywhere else, he would not be what he is and he would not have nearly as many SB's, or possibly any for that matter. 

Except he didn't make the playoffs without Brady. And using small sample sizes doesn't change his winning record without Brady.

[Narcosys]

2 hours ago, BOTT said:

Except he didn't make the playoffs without Brady. And using small sample sizes doesn't change his winning record without Brady.

That was a stacked year and you know it. Hardly never does it happen that a team goes 11-5 and doesn't make the playoffs. I get your point, but don't be so ridiculous in your reasoning because you know that's a fluke. 

 

The following year WITH TB, they went 10-6. So using your own logic, the Patriots were better off sticking with cassel who had a better record. Oh wait, but they made the playoffs with a 10-6 record. Which again goes to show how ridiculous your argument stands when put into context.

 

Its not just QB's that BB does it with too. He does it with no name receivers, and creates strong defenses out of players that aren't that great. They are coached and schemed well. BB has a better track record and argument for his coaching being their success than TB.

 

The patriots are .780 with tom brady and .700 without.  Over TBs entire season career, that means he only accounts for 20 more wins during his time as starting QB...20 that's it. And you're telling me that its all TB? That's a joke right?  Because to be otherwise is delusional.

[Valpo2004]

6 hours ago, Luck 4 president said:

Lots of interesting things in the article that was just released. Idk if they’re true but I hope they are for our sake. 

The article summarized:

Brady and his trainer have created friction between the team and Belichick.

Brady viewed Garoppolo as a threat and forced a trade. He refused to help Garoppolo at practice and refused him treatment with his trainer. Kraft sided with Brady over Belichick.

Belichick sees the end coming for the dynasty and is now prepping his assistants for HC jobs (McDaniels and Patricia) and chose to trade Garoppolo to the 9ers because he wants to see him succeed under shanahan even though he could have gotten much more out of him. He wanted to keep him but kraft sided with Brady on the issue.

 

I had heard that Belichick was ready to move on from Brady and roll with Jimmy G next year. and Kraft overruled him which is why Jimmy G. was traded.  

 

I mean if you think about it, if it was any other player, Belichick would move on from them once they hit an age in which players at that position start to decline.  Tom Brady is at that age right now.  

 

But it's not any other player, it's Tom Brady.  And I could certainly see Kraft overruling him on Brady's behalf.  

[lance_m8]

They threw away their future when trading Jimmy G honestly would not be surprised is if in 5 years they are a bottom 5 team

[Mel Kiper's Hair]

One thing I've learned is that in sports eventually all things come to an end. I have a great deal of respect for what the Patriots have done the last 20 years but I am hoping that this is the beginning of the end for their reign.

[Gramz]

I Just finished reading this very long article. Very interesting, but not at all surprising.  

[DaveA1102]

35 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

I had heard that Belichick was ready to move on from Brady and roll with Jimmy G next year. and Kraft overruled him which is why Jimmy G. was traded.  

 

I mean if you think about it, if it was any other player, Belichick would move on from them once they hit an age in which players at that position start to decline.  Tom Brady is at that age right now.  

 

But it's not any other player, it's Tom Brady.  And I could certainly see Kraft overruling him on Brady's behalf.  

 

It will never be confirmed, but is a very believable scenario.  TB's adviser seems to be a big issue for BB as well based on him banning Guerrero from the sidelines, etc.  Based on Jimmy G's play, I can 100% see BB looking to transition to him next year and setting the franchise up for another 10 years of dominance.  Man, that would suck.

[DaveA1102]

Link to full article was posted in the other thread and comments are there also...

[21isSuperman]

10 hours ago, John Waylon said:

Here's a logical argument against this story: 

 

if the the relationship between Brady, Kraft, and BB is irreparable beyond this year who should stay?

 

Brady, Kraft, and the Patriots under a new coach sticking to the same system are still a powerhouse. BB, Kraft, and Brian Hoyer probably miss the playoffs. 

 

So wouldn't it make sense for them to have McDaniels and Patricia unavailable for interviews until that situation sorts itself out? If they were to oust BB one way or another who better to take over and keep the last couple years of Brady's career as fruitful as they have been than one of those two? As it stands now they could lose both, and BB. 

 

I dunno. I'm not gonna say it's all smoke and no fire, but I'm not convinced the house is burning down. 

I don't think this is a logical argument against the story, but rather the implications of the whole situation, which the story itself tries to purvey.  Belichick and Brady are both very valuable to the franchise, so it's going to be a very difficult decision as to who they decide to move forward with.

[BOTT]

1 hour ago, Narcosys said:

That was a stacked year and you know it. Hardly never does it happen that a team goes 11-5 and doesn't make the playoffs. I get your point, but don't be so ridiculous in your reasoning because you know that's a fluke. 

 

The following year WITH TB, they went 10-6. So using your own logic, the Patriots were better off sticking with cassel who had a better record. Oh wait, but they made the playoffs with a 10-6 record. Which again goes to show how ridiculous your argument stands when put into context.

 

Its not just QB's that BB does it with too. He does it with no name receivers, and creates strong defenses out of players that aren't that great. They are coached and schemed well. BB has a better track record and argument for his coaching being their success than TB.

 

The patriots are .780 with tom brady and .700 without.  Over TBs entire season career, that means he only accounts for 20 more wins during his time as starting QB...20 that's it. And you're telling me that its all TB? That's a joke right?  Because to be otherwise is delusional. 

 

Listen, I get it, you've got it hard for TB, but your bias is really showing. Its getting in the way of rational thinking and conversation. Especially when the facts and numbers say otherwise. 

 

Good lord, I give my opinion and you resort to calling everything ridiculous and accuse me of having it hard for Tom Brady. Typical...

[Chrisaaron1023]

 suuure.. they are just "toying" with the rest of us again.

 

My grandchildren will be watching these guys dominate the NFL.. and I'm 27 with a 5 year old

[The Fish]

I just want to go and post "karma?" on every article about this on PFT.. 

None of this is totally unbelievable, but it doesn't deal with them on the field. I really, really don't want to see the cheaters win another SB.

 

"troll thread".. lol

[Yehoodi]

1 hour ago, Narcosys said:

That was a stacked year and you know it. Hardly never does it happen that a team goes 11-5 and doesn't make the playoffs. I get your point, but don't be so ridiculous in your reasoning because you know that's a fluke. 

 

The following year WITH TB, they went 10-6. So using your own logic, the Patriots were better off sticking with cassel who had a better record. Oh wait, but they made the playoffs with a 10-6 record. Which again goes to show how ridiculous your argument stands when put into context.

 

Its not just QB's that BB does it with too. He does it with no name receivers, and creates strong defenses out of players that aren't that great. They are coached and schemed well. BB has a better track record and argument for his coaching being their success than TB.

 

The patriots are .780 with tom brady and .700 without.  Over TBs entire season career, that means he only accounts for 20 more wins during his time as starting QB...20 that's it. And you're telling me that its all TB? That's a joke right?  Because to be otherwise is delusional. 

 

Listen, I get it, you've got it hard for TB, but your bias is really showing. Its getting in the way of rational thinking and conversation. Especially when the facts and numbers say otherwise. 

 

 

Just a few points . . . 

 

First and most critically, BB, TB and the Pats have been together since 2000.  From 2000 to the present time the Pats are 195-55 (0.780) when Brady has started and 18-18 (0.500) when Brady has not been the starter, so a 0.280 difference (these numbers do not include the games in which Bledsoe and Brady got injured, numbers do include the few games which the team rested its starters at the end of seasons).  

 

Second, in 2008 the AFCE had a very easy schedule with three of the teams finishing over 0.500 (and the fourth, Buffalo, going 7-9).  This has only happened three times in the division, 2002, 2004 and 2008.   Also Miami, in a 10 year span from 2004 to 2014 Miami has only two winnings seasons (2008 11-5, 2005 9-7), and indication they are not the strongest team thereby qualifying the 2008 11-5 season may not have been that difficult to come by if the no so strong Fins can get 11 wins.  

 

Third, yes we were not great in 2009 and likely is our weakest team. This is also the year that the team had turmoil and has traded or lost to retirement most of its early 2000s team and was in a rebuilding mode.  I" do agree with your point on this matter of 2009 but wanted to bring up the above points. 

 

In the end one must look at all things to get a better perspective on TB's contribution to the team and how the team has fared without him under center, and the analysis is not limited to just a few numbers from 2008, 2008, 2014 or 2000.   

[BloodyChamp]

6 hours ago, BOTT said:

The year Brady was injured the patriots went from 18-1 and a SB birth to 11-5 and lost the division to the lowly Dolphins led by tony soprono and Chad pennington. 

I'm not questioning BB greatness, but there is a line in the sand......before Brady/after Brady.

 

11-5 was the same record the Pats had the last time they played a full season with a backup. The lowly Dolphins were 12-4 in 2008, the Jets were 9-7 and the Bills were 7-9. 

 

I know I know but but SB...they had the same regular season record so it's not far fetched to say Bill Belichik would have won another SB with another backup had they not missed the playoffs on 1 of the biggest technicalities ever.

 

[Gramz]

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

I just want to go and post "karma?" on every article about this on PFT.. 

None of this is totally unbelievable, but it doesn't deal with them on the field. I really, really don't want to see the cheaters win another SB.

 

"troll thread".. lol

I find most of it to be very believable as well.   And not surprising.   

 

And on a different note,  I've been happy to watch Garoppolo do well with the 49ers.   BB knew what they had in him.

 

It will be interesting to see how the rest of this story plays out.

[21isSuperman]

An interesting article from a few years ago that is relevant to this... 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000463606/article/tom-bradys-father-it-will-end-badly-in-new-england

[Valpo2004]

47 minutes ago, DaveA1102 said:

 

It will never be confirmed, but is a very believable scenario.  TB's adviser seems to be a big issue for BB as well based on him banning Guerrero from the sidelines, etc.  Based on Jimmy G's play, I can 100% see BB looking to transition to him next year and setting the franchise up for another 10 years of dominance.  Man, that would suck.

 

I could see a disagreement over this leading to an argument about who is most responsible for the dynasty.  BB could easily tell Kraft that he should trust his judgement because he built and sustained the dynasty while Kraft arguing back that Tom Brady was the author of the dynasty.  

 

But it seems awefully late in the year for them to start reporting that this is it, it's the last year and BB's gonna quit.  I strongly doubt that.  

[BOTT]

3 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

 

11-5 was the same record the Pats had the last time they played a full season with a backup. The lowly Dolphins were 12-4 in 2008, the Jets were 9-7 and the Bills were 7-9. 

 

I know I know but but SB...they had the same regular season record so it's not far fetched to say Bill Belichik would have won another SB with another backup had they not missed the playoffs on 1 of the biggest technicalities ever.

 

I understand going 11-5 and missing the playoff is an anomaly.  That why I stated who the patriots lost the division to.  It's not like the patriots lost the division to Big Ben, mike tomlin and Steelers or mike McCarthy and Aaron rogers....they lost the division to freaking tony saprono and Chad Pennington.

[Reality Check]

Here is the reality of things as they relate to the latest NE article...

 

Seth Wickersham/ESPN has just published the latest in a long line of "Pats Dynasty is over" articles over the past 10yrs.  Esssentially, the article is completely written based on the innuendo of "unnamed sources".  While it is interesting to peer inside the Patriot's "top secret" organization, one must consider that the author did not use ANY quotes (from key figures/Patriots employees) in this piece.

 

Workplace issues are very common as some of us know.  I am sure there is some real truth related to many of the incidents brought up in the article, but I also am not really intrigued as I see these things as "expected" in any long running business relationship...especially considered the egos involved.

 

Here is another way to consider this article...

 

As many know, the head honcho at ESPN recently retired citing "substance abuse issues" as the reason for the surprise announcement.  Does anyone really believe that his exit from ESPN was as simple as "substance abuse issues"?