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clock is ticking (Fire Everyone merge)


FanFromtheWasteland

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I don’t know about the rest of you but I say no. If they don’t show improvement or capability to do their job, but still have control, why should I give my full effort?  I am seeing this attitude in the Colts as of now, and I don’t blame the players.

 

   Grigson has had 5 years to do something with this team and has epically failed. TY you say? Davis you say? Well my answer is this. There is an old farmers saying “even a blind sow finds an acorn once in awhile”

 

   Pagano has had 4 years to do something with this team and he has squandered the talent that he has had. I do lay most of the blame on Grigson for who he has brought in as players but Pagano was supposed to have been the motivator, teacher and defensive guru,  and he most likely brought in the underling coaches. I see no motivation or skill anywhere anymore.

 

     Why would it be so terrible to can Grigson and Pagano now. Why waste any more time? A GM at this point in the season is meaningless anyway. We have the players we have, so cut the dead weight. Pagano is a lame duck and has that same look on his face that Mora and Caldwell had on their faces right before they were canned. The look of befuddlement. Can anyone else be any worse at this point? It’s not like this team is going anywhere this year and if the rest of the organization sees the top two people are expendable, wouldn’t that light a fire under your behind to do better? It would mine.

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The answer is of course yes.  I've had plenty of horrible bosses, and also some amazing bosses, often at the same employer over time.  You can only control what you can control, your performance.  Are you getting your paycheck?  If the answer is yes, then you owe them your best effort.  As far as I am aware, NFL player's checks are cashing, they owe their best effort.  If the bad bosses deploy you poorly, success won't follow, but that is what they are held accountable for.   If your individual performance is your best effort, you've done what you're paid for.  It's like the military in that someone people had the bad "bosses" but in the big picture, it was critical they still followed the orders because the large overhead whole may require something that makes no sense on your end.  

In Football, good talent evaluators can usually tell if you're giving max effort, or if you're not.  Your next contract depends on you doing your best.  And you owe that.  It's the old two wrongs don't make a right.  

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I only know one way to work. I give my all every day no matter if I get compensated as I wish I did or I get any credit or my work accomplishes what I wish. What matters to me is I KNOW if I don't give my all and I am unwilling to let myself lower MY standard no matter my boss does or doesn't do. Personally I believe when you quit on something or give up or give in or less you die a little inside and it's hard to get that back even if you get a new boss. Personally I think how you act when no one is looking or when things are tough or when bad things happen reveals your true character. 

 

Not sayinf i woukdnt try to try to find a new job but while I'm working I only know one way...and that's my best...not only because I hold myself to that standard but there are more people effected than just my boss...there are my coworkers to think about who I may respect and care about...customers who deserve my best...and my family for me to set a good example for and support. Sorry I can't agree with you on this one....oh and even if this coach is gone or the GM later on...do you think the next coming in is going to want to keep guys that cashed it in??? Who will want to sign them? When the going gets tough they give up?? Sorry I want ballers..and if I come into an organization the first thing I do is get rid of the quitters...the guys with no hearts...because they might give up on me too when the going gets tough. Once you quit once it's like a virus that gets in your system...it may lie dormant but will pop itself up again later on when the system gets under pressure. No can't see it your way and luckily most good players don't either.

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Personally, I've never had a real job. Just played poker and fantasy sports while doing the occasional side job for friends when they needed me. Never had a boss, because I can't stand authority. If I did have a boss though, it would depend on the relationship I had with him or her. I don't necessarily mean buddy/buddy relationship, I mean do you treat me with respect? Have you ever backstabbed me? Do you pay me properly for my effort? If I want a raise, will you give me one if I deserve it? Do you lead by example? These are some of the questions that will determine if I will give my all for you, or just do enough to get by. If I hate you, I have no problem telling you, and it doesn't matter if you were my boss. Unfortunately, the players aren't in that position because they need the job, but I wish they were. Pagano and Grigson don't lead by examples, they aren't leaders of men, I don't think our players are fighting for them.

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I work to my own standards.

But I do see your point.  It is very discouraging to not be able to achieve more because of the way things are managed.  When that happens, I start looking elsewhere.

As far as changing now, I don't see the point of that.  A commitment was made a plan was made.  So far, it's not looking good but I think it deserves the season.

Anyway, it's not like there's somebody out there right now that we want to step in and take the reigns. Not that I know of anyway. We all know too well there are no quick fixes.

If there is a chance we pull this together and get things headed in the right direction, I sure would prefer that to starting all over again.

These guys know what they need to do and they've been given the opportunity and committed to it.  I'd honor that.

Perhaps I'm just tired of people always wanting to fire people.  Lots of people have been fired in recent years.

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45 minutes ago, Nadine said:

I work to my own standards.

But I do see your point.  It is very discouraging to not be able to achieve more because of the way things are managed.  When that happens, I start looking elsewhere.

As far as changing now, I don't see the point of that.  A commitment was made a plan was made.  So far, it's not looking good but I think it deserves the season.

Anyway, it's not like there's somebody out there right now that we want to step in and take the reigns. Not that I know of anyway. We all know too well there are no quick fixes.

If there is a chance we pull this together and get things headed in the right direction, I sure would prefer that to starting all over again.

These guys know what they need to do and they've been given the opportunity and committed to it.  I'd honor that.

Perhaps I'm just tired of people always wanting to fire people.  Lots of people have been fired in recent years.

I do get your point as well. These players are on a national stage trying to display their talents. However there does come a point in time when everyone decides that their efforts are being wasted on inept management personnel. When I have to be the boss to keep things going and all it does is make the terrible boss look good, I have a problem with that. This team has had the same problems year after year after year and it never gets fixed. I ask again what more harm could it  do to replace the gm and coach now instead of in January. There is nothing that says you can't hire new ones then.

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In the NFL, of course you would, or you will be out on the street..........then of course, Grigson wil come along and sign you. On a point of note from a previous post, in most corporate organisations, there are limits to what a boss can do regarding raises, so it is normally the 'system' than dictates, rather than the actual boss, although they can influence, and some do fight harder than others for you....

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3 hours ago, Nadine said:

I work to my own standards.

But I do see your point.  It is very discouraging to not be able to achieve more because of the way things are managed.  When that happens, I start looking elsewhere.

As far as changing now, I don't see the point of that.  A commitment was made a plan was made.  So far, it's not looking good but I think it deserves the season.

Anyway, it's not like there's somebody out there right now that we want to step in and take the reigns. Not that I know of anyway. We all know too well there are no quick fixes.

If there is a chance we pull this together and get things headed in the right direction, I sure would prefer that to starting all over again.

These guys know what they need to do and they've been given the opportunity and committed to it.  I'd honor that.

Perhaps I'm just tired of people always wanting to fire people.  Lots of people have been fired in recent years.

 

Firing people is often more of a direct reflection on the firer than the fired,  It is their failure. Either it was a bad hire, or they managed the person poorly.  Only when there is "cause" does the fault usually fall entirely on the person fired (for example stealing or other legal violations, just not showing up for work, violence etc.).  Just like all other businesses, the failures of these players is either the fault of the person who hired them (Grigson) or the person who manages them (ultimately Pagano with assistants who sometimes get blamed and fired, which means they too were either a bad hire or badly managed).  

 

In the case of Grigson and Pagano themselves, the fault of their joint failures (depending on whether it was bad hires (i.e. signings/draft picks) or bad management (coaching) is the fault of their boss, in this case Irsay.  He essentially just rehired them both, so if either is deemed a failure, it is directly the fault of Irsay.  In this case, he has the benefit of having no other boss (unless you look at the collective league but they hold little sway over the owners expect in the case of "cause" like we saw in Los Angeles with the former Clippers owner who gave the other owners "cause" to essentially fire him from their league).   But that example being a bizarre exception to the rule, they certainly don't fire NFL owners so Irsay is going nowhere he doesn't want to go no matter how many bad decisions he makes.  

 

In most other companies, the board of directors can step in and get rid of the head guy on behalf of the many owners.  In the NFL, he's it.  His track record is second only to the Krafts in terms of wins I think over the past 20 or so years, so he's among the best of the best of the best.  But even he can make mistakes and he may have in both cases.   I am not big Grigson fan, but like Nadine mentioned, last summer I suggested that they may keep both guys because there were no apparent better options.   I think Irsay tried the other approach, and he tried to coach them both up.  

 

The draft this year looked pretty good early (though a little tarnish has developed in some opinions), but it still suffers from 3 previous really bad years from Grigson that have caught up to this team not to mention the nearly complete lack of activity in FA and no meaningful UDFA's signed by Grigson either.  

 

Pagano unfortunately has not improved his performance either with several blatant gaffes, but the old argument remains, can you make a good meal with spoiled, missing or the wrong groceries?   That's a legit debate that rages today.   In the end,  Irsay will have to decide if he can keep coaching these guys, or he made one or two bad hires.  

 

In the end, Pagano and Grigson are both putting in their max effort (nothing suggests otherwise) so it's really a matter of Irsay getting them in line or admitting his failure by firing them.  

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The fact that 75% of the respondents say they would NOT give their best effort really sums up what is going on in the USA these days.  Forget working hard for your pay check, everything has to meet with your privileged approval or you're going to loaf or worse.  That's pathetic.  Bosses come and go all the time and not all will be good or bad, nor will they ALWAYS be bad or ALWAYS good.  The idea that if you don't like who the company has put in charge, you won't put in the effort is foreign to those of us who have worked many years and/or built our own companies. If you take the pay, you owe the work.  If you don't like the job, that's a YOU problem, not the company's problem.   People often take a job without doing their homework, asking smart questions or understanding what their priorities in life are.   In the USA no one is forced to work, but if you're going to take the pay, do the job.   But it is simple to see where some of the bizarre opinions and arguments come from around here sometimes.  With those attitudes, rational discussion isn't likely possible.  

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7 hours ago, FanFromtheWasteland said:

I do get your point as well. These players are on a national stage trying to display their talents. However there does come a point in time when everyone decides that their efforts are being wasted on inept management personnel. When I have to be the boss to keep things going and all it does is make the terrible boss look good, I have a problem with that. This team has had the same problems year after year after year and it never gets fixed. I ask again what more harm could it  do to replace the gm and coach now instead of in January. There is nothing that says you can't hire new ones then.

It's literally a matter of a few weeks.  So, no, it doesn't make much difference whether now or in January.

I wonder though if Irsay blows the whole thing up and it takes years for the team to pull it together, how many people will be calling for his head? Same thing if he doesn't.  If he decides to stay the course and the team still loses more than they win.

 

I see a difficult situation for Irsay either way.  People will complain he's not involved enough or he's too involved, whichever suits what their opinion is at the moment.  Thing is, it's his business.  He cares about it both from a business perspective and a fan perspective.  And it's so easy to find fault, to look back and claim that everything was so clear. It's lose-lose for him.

 

The only solution is winning more than losing and doing it immediately.  The immediate part is the issue. 

 

I sure am glad that I don't have the world second guessing me.  

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19 minutes ago, Nadine said:

It's literally a matter of a few weeks.  So, no, it doesn't make much difference whether now or in January.

I wonder though if Irsay blows the whole thing up and it takes years for the team to pull it together, how many people will be calling for his head? Same thing if he doesn't.  If he decides to stay the course and the team still loses more than they win.

 

I see a difficult situation for Irsay either way.  People will complain he's not involved enough or he's too involved, whichever suits what their opinion is at the moment.  Thing is, it's his business.  He cares about it both from a business perspective and a fan perspective.  And it's so easy to find fault, to look back and claim that everything was so clear. It's lose-lose for him.

 

The only solution is winning more than losing and doing it immediately.  The immediate part is the issue. 

 

I sure am glad that I don't have the world second guessing me.  

My fault with this is the lack of effort from everyone on this team. From the owner, down to the coaches, down to the players. I understand there are going to be good and bad times, but when you stay the course on a sinking ship and get stubborn (talking about the owner not firing the coaches, and the coaches not changing their ways), it completely makes me stop caring as a fan. I want the team to do it's 100% best to succeed, if it fails, I can accept that. It's obvious though, everyone has given up, and it's only going to get worse when we get picked apart by Aaron Rodgers and the Packers next week.

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3 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

My fault with this is the lack of effort from everyone on this team. From the owner, down to the coaches, down to the players. I understand there are going to be good and bad times, but when you stay the course on a sinking ship and get stubborn (talking about the owner not firing the coaches, and the coaches not changing their ways), it completely makes me stop caring as a fan. I want the team to do it's 100% best to succeed, if it fails, I can accept that. It's obvious though, everyone has given up, and it's only going to get worse when we get picked apart by Aaron Rodgers and the Packers next week.

Well, many people were on fire to fire Pep Hamilton as the solution......and it wasn't.  I'm not as confident as you that no one is trying and there is no hope at all.  I also know that criticism is easy and actually building a good team is not.

 

The organization has a good history and I am confident that if firing is the solution, it will happen. 

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1 minute ago, Nadine said:

Well, many people were on fire to fire Pep Hamilton as the solution......and it wasn't.  I'm not as confident as you that no one is trying and there is no hope at all.  I also know that criticism is easy and actually building a good team is not.

 

The organization has a good history and I am confident that if firing is the solution, it will happen. 

There's definitely a lack of talent on this team, and I'll admit that. The main reason is that we never had a true rebuild. We never had multiple top 5 or top 10 picks because Luck was that good. He was so good, he stunted our growth, if that makes any sense. We were unable to acquire top-end talent through the draft, and it has caught up to us. So I'd like one year, especially in a year where pass-rushers are going to be plentiful and we need them, to have a top ten pick, and draft wisely. I'm willing to have patience and sacrifice for the future. Most are not.

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1 hour ago, Jared Cisneros said:

There's definitely a lack of talent on this team, and I'll admit that. The main reason is that we never had a true rebuild. We never had multiple top 5 or top 10 picks because Luck was that good. He was so good, he stunted our growth, if that makes any sense. We were unable to acquire top-end talent through the draft, and it has caught up to us. So I'd like one year, especially in a year where pass-rushers are going to be plentiful and we need them, to have a top ten pick, and draft wisely. I'm willing to have patience and sacrifice for the future. Most are not.

Really.

 

How does New England or Green Bay stay good picking at the bottom half in the draft every year. 

 

Why isn't Cleveland good then with your theory?  huh?

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9 minutes ago, tfunky14 said:

Really.

 

How does New England or Green Bay stay good picking at the bottom half in the draft every year. 

 

Why isn't Cleveland good then with your theory?  huh?

New England and Green Bay are consistently good because they have Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers, Cleveland isn't good because they have no QB, and no amount of highly drafted players will save them. Same reason why Seattle made two SB's and won one, Russell Wilson took them there. Also the same reason the Raiders are now a very good team, Derek Carr has become a near-elite QB. Want me to go on? Blake Bortles has been horrible, so all those 1st round picks don't carry them, only Bortles can truly do it. I wrote a whole page basically on another thread on why this is true, read that as well.

 

The early draft picks will push a team over the top, but you need a QB to have a chance, without one, you're done.

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2 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

There's definitely a lack of talent on this team, and I'll admit that. The main reason is that we never had a true rebuild. We never had multiple top 5 or top 10 picks because Luck was that good. He was so good, he stunted our growth, if that makes any sense. We were unable to acquire top-end talent through the draft, and it has caught up to us. So I'd like one year, especially in a year where pass-rushers are going to be plentiful and we need them, to have a top ten pick, and draft wisely. I'm willing to have patience and sacrifice for the future. Most are not.

Agree

But also I think the organization made a choice to make a run at a superbowl using free agency.  I've never seen us in free agency he way that we were with this FO.  The effort failed and cost us time, money, and a proper  rebuild.  The whole process seems to have left us as one hot mess.

 

That paired with draft mistakes cost left us in the situation we're in now.  So, we really don't know anything about what this group is capable of because all of it is through the lens of the pit that we dug for ourselves.

 

If it had worked, everybody would be thrilled but it didn't.  I just don't feel like I need a pound of flesh from anyone over it.  I honestly thing that anger is driving this group demand for immediate firings.  I don't believe in making decisions while angry or to satisfy anger.

 

Polian was fired, Manning was released, Caldwell was fired........all in the quest for a Super Bowl now.  We wanted a break from the way things had been done, we wanted to try another way. That's how I see it. So far, we have not accomplished anything except learning lessons.  At least I hope we have.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Agree

But also I think the organization made a choice to make a run at a superbowl using free agency.  I've never seen us in free agency he way that we were with this FO.  The effort failed and cost us time, money, and a proper  rebuild.  The whole process seems to have left us as one hot mess.

 

That paired with draft mistakes cost left us in the situation we're in now.  So, we really don't know anything about what this group is capable of because all of it is through the lens of the pit that we dug for ourselves.

 

If it had worked, everybody would be thrilled but it didn't.  I just don't feel like I need a pound of flesh from anyone over it.  I honestly thing that anger is driving this group demand for immediate firings.  I don't believe in making decisions while angry or to satisfy anger.

 

Polian was fired, Manning was released, Caldwell was fired........all in the quest for a Super Bowl now.  We wanted a break from the way things had been done, we wanted to try another way. That's how I see it. So far, we have not accomplished anything except learning lessons.  At least I hope we have.

 

 

You are correct, we basically gutted the team in 2012, so I personally wasn't a huge fan of that strategy. It rarely works except to put teams over the edge (Denver Broncos). The thing is, you're right. We would be thrilled if it worked and we at least made it to a SB or won one. We reached our potential with this strategy, which was the AFC Championship game, and learned very quickly how behind the Patriots we were. 

 

IMO, this further shows my point, it's time to cut the cord. Even if Pagano and Grigson stay, we need to inject this team with some high-end talent. Lots of posts are being posted that there is little difference between a top pick and bottom pick, which certainly isn't true. Time to help Luck. Do what we didn't do for him before and build a quality defense around him.

 

I personally think Manning getting released was going to happen no matter what. He had neck problems, Luck was the once in a generation QB and we had a chance to get a John Elway clone for 15 years. I would of personally traded Peyton, but I forgot the circumstances why we didn't. Hopefully we have learned what we have done wrong. 

 

My worry is you can't teach talent. If our players don't have the ability to get better, than they just won't. That is on Grigson to find the correct players. It's also up to Pagano to maximize their potential. Something has to change.

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6 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

You are correct, we basically gutted the team in 2012, so I personally wasn't a huge fan of that strategy. It rarely works except to put teams over the edge (Denver Broncos). The thing is, you're right. We would be thrilled if it worked and we at least made it to a SB or won one. We reached our potential with this strategy, which was the AFC Championship game, and learned very quickly how behind the Patriots we were. 

 

IMO, this further shows my point, it's time to cut the cord. Even if Pagano and Grigson stay, we need to inject this team with some high-end talent. Lots of posts are being posted that there is little difference between a top pick and bottom pick, which certainly isn't true. Time to help Luck. Do what we didn't do for him before and build a quality defense around him.

 

I personally think Manning getting released was going to happen no matter what. He had neck problems, Luck was the once in a generation QB and we had a chance to get a John Elway clone for 15 years. I would of personally traded Peyton, but I forgot the circumstances why we didn't. Hopefully we have learned what we have done wrong. 

 

My worry is you can't teach talent. If our players don't have the ability to get better, than they just won't. That is on Grigson to find the correct players. It's also up to Pagano to maximize their potential. Something has to change.

Agree

Especially about protecting Luck.  That is one thing that makes me angry.  5 years and we cannot do that.

That, and the penalties make me crazy. I'm not against changing management.  I just don't feel like it would be good for the players to do so immediately.  If it would mean that luck was protected I'd say yes.  If it meant an end to the penalties immediately, I'd say yes.

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1 minute ago, Nadine said:

Agree

Especially about protecting Luck.  That is one thing that makes me angry.  5 years and we cannot do that.

That, and the penalties make me crazy. I'm not against changing management.  I just don't feel like it would be good for the players to do so immediately.  If it would mean that luck was protected I'd say yes.  If it meant an end to the penalties immediately, I'd say yes.

Absolutely, when I see Pagano and hear his press conferences and he says he wouldn't change something or he'd do the same thing over, it makes me realize he doesn't learn from his mistakes. He'll never be the best coach in football, but a coach that learns from his mistakes is an invaluable coach and gives us more hope for the future. Grigson I have more confidence in, his drafts are so-so and the same with trades, but he seems to learn from his mistakes, which gives me more comfort. We're drafting poorly as in helping Luck, but if we fill the holes this draft, at least it will be done properly. 

 

The penalties are what drives me nuts as well, those and the drops by the WR's. These need to be cut down. A lot of it is inexperience (TJ Green), but I think more of it is poor discipline and a lack of respect for Pagano. Personally, how can you blame the players for that though?

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how much longer will luck be able to play with the hits he is taking? grigs has had five years to put a good line in front of luck and luck is still getting beat up. do we have time at this point in lucks career to wait for draft picks to develop, if they ever do ,before his prime years are gone? grigs has made the team worse every year with  his poor talent picking, grigs is wasting lucks career, he has got this team in a tight spot and as long he is gm we will have bad seasons

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No doubt, whoever that scouts our O-Line talent has been whiffing for years. I would say draft another O-Linemen in the 2nd round and hope it pans out like Mewhort or Kelly. Or if he really wants to be bold, draft O-Linemen in the 1st and 2nd and make a play for a pass rusher in FA. Wouldn't be a super sexy draft but I would do it to protect Luck. He's a really durable guy but you just never know when another big hit could throw him out of the game again for sure. We need that concrete barrier around him and it's not there yet.

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We've been one of the most penalized teams for years now. Nothing has changed! We have not improved. There are so many crazy stats about how bad this team is, on both sides of the ball.

*Luck has lost a league-high yards because of penalties.* It's just CRAZY.

After this season, Pagano and Grigson need to go. Keep the oc and DC just because we've already freaking had so many different coordinators. 

 

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Ok.  Lets gather up the theme of this week's threads....

 

Luck plays poorly.  its not his fault, its Grigsons fault because Luck is now shell-shocked from playing behind a perpetually bad Oline.

 

Chester Rogers, whom Grigson found and the other 31 GMs didn't, is a promising player who the site chooses to compare to Dorsett, then bash Grigson for his UDFA playing well by comparison.

 

If Grigson wasn't such a poor GM, we wouldn't have so many injuries.

 

Grigson is stupid for not trading a third round pick for Jamie Collins, who will be a FA this spring and doesn't rush the passer anyway.

 

Now...Grigson is the cause of so many penalties.

 

Ok. me too....

 

My water heater gave out last night.  Its because I had to use so much hot water from taking too many soothing baths from all of the stress the Colts are bringing me.  If the Colts had a different GM, my water heater would be working now.

 

 

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    • Irsay or no other pro-sports owner is strapped for cash.  Look at the lifestyles they live.  These guys are swimming in money Scrooge McDuck style.  They like to get you to think that they are so that they have to pay for less things like the a new stadium and give them friendly tax breaks but they aren’t.  These guys are super rich even the small market teams like the Colts.  If you want to think they are strapped for cash go a head but we are going to agree to disagree.  
    • I agree. I cannot recall who else he drafted in 2015 but I could not understand why he drafted the WR out of Miami at #29 that year.
    • If I may….    I’ll share some information that I’ve had for about 4 months.   It may or may not surprise you.  This is what I tried to send you the other night but somehow screwed up.      These are the big signing bonuses the Colts have given out over the years when the players 2nd contract came around:  this is from Spotrac.    Nelson:   $31m Leonard:  $20m Smith:      $15m Taylor:      $10.24m Stewart:    $5m      BUT…..    I also found this….   *** When Ballard signed Buckner to 4/84 his SB was 0. *** When Ballard signed Kelly to 4/50 his signing bonus was 0. *** When Ballard signed Moore to 4/33 his signing bonus was 0.  *** When Ballard signed MAC to 3/19 his SB was 0.    To be clear, no agent lets their client sign a deal like this out of the goodness of their heart to help the team.  I think it stands to reason they get something in return.  And I think it’s a higher amount of guaranteed money.  That’s money the player would get even if the team cut the player before the contract was done.   Guaranteeing a higher percentage of money doesn’t cost the Colts anything if the team is confident the player will be in the roster for the life of the contract.    I view this as a sign of a small market team.   The Colts wanted to do this.  It’s to their advantage.  I’m not blaming the Colts for doing this, I think it’s smart business.  But I think it’s a sign that from time to time, Irsay needs a little help so he doesn’t have to write a large check.     This is my view.   I welcome input from all.    @w87r   @Superman  @GoColts8818  
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