55 replies to this topic

[DoomOf21]

Does anyone know the exact rules for the Luck touchdown run? Collinsworth seemed all flustered that the refs didn't call him short of goal line and given his reasoning (the QB slide rules) I'd have to agree with him. Though he did get hit as he was sliding down, so either it was a touchdown or it would have been a penalty in my opinion.

Additionally, that play looked like a double option. A possible handoff up the middle, followed by a swing out wide with an option to Luck's left. Do you think this was the case or do you think it was just a fake?

[oldunclemark]

Does anyone know the exact rules for the Luck touchdown run? Collinsworth seemed all flustered that the refs didn't call him short of goal line and given his reasoning (the QB slide rules) I'd have to agree with him. Though he did get hit as he was sliding down, so either it was a touchdown or it would have been a penalty in my opinion.

Additionally, that play looked like a double option. A possible handoff up the middle, followed by a swing out wide with a option to Luck's left. Do you think this was the case or do you think it was just a fake?

I thought it was an option and he needed to pitch the ball

I thought Andrew actually made the wrong decision on that play

[JoKeR]

It's cool, he may not have crossed the line soon enough, but it made up for the poor spotting after the bad reversal call. There wasn't enough evidence to over turn Ballards TD.

[dgambill]

Luck should have been down on the 1/2 yard line. As soon as he starts his slide and starts to begin to give himself up...he is immediately down. That is the rule and in the occassion last night he would have been short. I saw no penalty on the play because it was an ackward slide. We should have had the ball on like the 1 inch line the play before but overall it doesn't matter. They got it wrong but its the preseason. The missed pass interference and defensive holding early on was way worse.

[ztboiler]

I thought it was an option and he needed to pitch the ball

I thought Andrew actually made the wrong decision on that play

He made the wrong decision for a preseason game and you could see it in his response during the press conf. clip about that play. In preseason you pitch the ball unless you can walk in. If you need a score in a meaningful game, however, keeping the ball was 100% the right decision. Easy touchdown. In a real game, keeping it has to be an option or you can't run the play on 4th down.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Here is the rule.

Rule 7 Section 2 Article 1 section d

(d) when a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground. The ball is dead the instant
the runner touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet; or
Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.
(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by
a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is
not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by
driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.
(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before
contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his

slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.

Since he slid late, the contact wasn't illegal, even though the refs failed to apply the rules correctly during the play or after the play.

This would be a perfect example of why the NFL will have to give in to the real refs. The Colts benefited from these errors this time. They might not next time and next time might be a real game.

[FireJimCaldwell]

The play was a triple option.

Option 1 give to the dive back
Option 2 Luck keeps it
Option 3 Luck pitches to the tailback.

[MAC]

It was clearly a bad call by the refs, but more importantly it was a really bad decision by Luck. The point of the slide is to give yourself up to avoid injury in the open field, not to try and score from the one yard line in traffic. Not really a surprise that the goal line was defended. He effectively offered up his knees as some sort of sacrifice, and is very lucky that he didn't get hurt.

[funktacious2]

It was a bad call, but what's done is done. If you'd like you can call this karma for the bad spotting of the ball and multiple interference no-calls.

[JustAColtsFan]

What I saw was one heart beat away from Luck going down for the season with a blown knee. Terrible, Terrible Terrible!!!

[TKnight85]

The play was a triple option.

Option 1 give to the dive back
Option 2 Luck keeps it
Option 3 Luck pitches to the tailback.

I run this SAME play in NCAA 13

[Restored]

Luck in all likelyhood DIDN'T score on that play but Ballard scored on the previous play before. Replacement refs had to make up it somehow.

[Phil J]

I think we all held our collective breath. It was horrible to watch, especially since its 2 games into the preseason.

I know how huge and athletic he is, and that he can take a real bad hit, but that was leg and knee first right into the wall of black jersey's. Scary.

[The Fish]

I thought he was in. The knee hit the chalk, the ball was past the goal line.

[ztboiler]

I thought he was in. The knee hit the chalk, the ball was past the goal line.

I saw it exactly the same as you described.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I thought he was in. The knee hit the chalk, the ball was past the goal line.

It's not about where the knee hits, it is where he starts the slide(the point that he gives himself up) where they are supposed to blow it dead. In this case, the ball was in between the half yard line and the yard line when he started the process.

[Shepman]

I heard them say last night that the review team are the regular team and aren't affected by the hold out.

[Dr. T]

It's not about where the knee hits, it is where he starts the slide(the point that he gives himself up) where they are supposed to blow it dead. In this case, the ball was in between the half yard line and the yard line when he started the process.

You start the slide where your knee (ankle or other body part) first hits the ground. And that was his knee hitting the goal line. It was not a bad call. It was reviewed by the real refs and it stood as was called.

[ztboiler]

It's not about where the knee hits, it is where he starts the slide(the point that he gives himself up) where they are supposed to blow it dead. In this case, the ball was in between the half yard line and the yard line when he started the process.

I read the rule you quoted earlier in this thread much differently than this. It doesn't jive with your conclusion here.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I heard them say last night that the review team are the regular team and aren't affected by the hold out.

I didn't have my sound up, partially due to Collinsworth, but no matter who was in the booth, all TD's are supposed to be reviewed and that one was most certainly one that wasn't a 100% cut and dry touchdown and should have been sent down to the Scab Ref to go under the hood.

As I said before, the Colts got the better end of these errors. Next time they might not and it might be week 1 vs. Chicago.

[Dr. T]

Oh yeah. And Collingsworthless is an * by stopping the tape before Lucks knee hit the ground. What a tool.

[The Fish]

You start the slide where your knee (ankle or other body part) first hits the ground. And that was his knee hitting the goal line. It was not a bad call. It was reviewed by the real refs and it stood as was called.

the phrase "start the slide" is key. You start the slide once your on the ground.

I just hope we can introduce the phrase, "football move" to this situation to make it more confusing.

[FireJimCaldwell]

You start the slide where your knee (ankle or other body part) first hits the ground. And that was his knee hitting the goal line. It was not a bad call. It was reviewed by the real refs and it stood as was called.

On paper that may be true, but the "real refs" blow it dead when they start the slide. It's a safety measure.

Either way, it was close enough that it should have been reviewed, since all TD's are to be reviewed by the on-field ref.

[FireJimCaldwell]

the phrase "start the slide" is key. You start the slide once your on the ground.

I just hope we can introduce the phrase, "football move" to this situation to make it more confusing.

I read the rule you quoted earlier in this thread much differently than this. It doesn't jive with your conclusion here.

There was a series of plays a couple of years ago in a Giants game where Eli Manning had an awkward looking slide, and contact was made.

Buck & Aikman were talking about and then they went to Periara* in LA and they were talking about this specific rule and he quoted the rule from the rule book, but he then stressed that due to the safety concerns about a QB being in an defenseless position that the refs are instructed to blow the whistle when the player starts the process even if it precedes him actually hitting the ground.

That is all I'm basing it on. Since he's supposed to be the end-all-be-all when it comes to officiating.

If the play happens at the forty yardline there likely isn't any discussion over it.

[Kyle]

Oh yeah. And Collingsworthless is an * by stopping the tape before Lucks knee hit the ground. What a tool.

i noticed this too. everytime he would pause it and say "and he's down right there." but after he started it back up for a second, you could clearly see his knee hit later.

[a06cc]

Hey if Ben can do it in the Super Bowl why can't Luck do it? We've seen bad calls from the NFL's assigned Official crew and now this hired replacement crew. It doesn't matter who is reffing the games, they all can't seem to get calls correct. This is something we're going to have to deal with if works in our favor or not.

[NewEra]

dont want to see him make to many more runs like that. especially against a team like the steelers who are going to come in and drill the crap out of you. like the collie play, sucks...he took a shot to the head but this is football folks. if you cant take it maybe its time to hang it up.

[JoKeR]

i noticed this too. everytime he would pause it and say "and he's down right there." but after he started it back up for a second, you could clearly see his knee hit later.

But on the review of Ballards run he's like, you can't over turn that.

[NewEra]

But on the review of Ballards run he's like, you can't over turn that.

speaking of Ballard. my jaw dropped on one of his earlier runs. where he ran some dude over than stiffed armed another guy into the ground. I offically love that dude!!

[Kyle]

But on the review of Ballards run he's like, you can't over turn that.

i think it's safe to say, Collinsworth and the replay officials were not on the same page

[Kyle]

speaking of Ballard. my jaw dropped on one of his earlier runs. where he ran some dude over than stiffed armed another guy into the ground. I offically love that dude!!

YES! I agree. He looked like a manimal on that one. Brown and Ballard seem like they could be a good 1, 2 combo. I like Carter but he doesn't appear to be on the same level as the other 2.

[coltsrule91]

its poetic justice for that bad call on ballard

[rockywoj]

Oh yeah. And Collingsworthless is an * by stopping the tape before Lucks knee hit the ground. What a tool.

This. When they kept stopping it on freeze frame, it was when his knee was forward but before it actually made ground contact. Based on what I could see when they let the replay play out, when his knee actually made ground contact, the ball had broken the plain of the goal line.

[MAC]

Oh yeah. And Collingsworthless is an * by stopping the tape before Lucks knee hit the ground. What a tool.

i noticed this too. everytime he would pause it and say "and he's down right there." but after he started it back up for a second, you could clearly see his knee hit later.

There was a recent thread about Collinsworth's supposed hatred and bias against the Colts (which I had never noticed), so I paid particular attention in this game. I think that it's some Colts fans who have a problem with their perception, not Collinsworth.

First of all, Collinsworth isn't controlling the replay, the producers in the booth are.

Second, they didn't stop the tape to prevent Colt fans from seeing certain things (how ridiculous), they showed the entire play repeatedly, backwards and forwards from multiple angles.

Third, Luck started his slide WELL before the endzone - if that's the defining action, it wasn't a touchdown.

Fourth, Lucks knee CLEARLY hit the ground before going into the end zone. If that's the defining action, it wasn't a touchdown.

Fifth, the other conspiracy theory thread made it clear that if there is any team that Collinsworth is supposedly more biased against than the Colts, it's the Steelers - the fierce division rivals from his playing days (as opposed to the team from down the highway that he never played a meaningful game against). How do you factor this into your viewpoint? It would have been difficult for him to be biased against both teams simultaneously.

Somewhere there are Steeler fans grumbling about exactly the same thing from the opposite viewpoint. In my viewpoint none of it makes any sense. Collinsworth said complimentary and critical things about both teams. He was completely fair and exhibited no bias towards anyone. More to the point he was far more knowledgeable and entertaining than the analysts we are subjected to on any of the non "prime time" games. If you don't happen to like him, that's your prerogative, but if you take the chip off your shoulder you might enjoy him more.

[schwamm]

As I said before, the Colts got the better end of these errors. Next time they might not and it might be week 1 vs. Chicago.

I'm not sure I'd agree...

From what I understand, we are now seeing exactly the same replays as the replay officials (or at least that was what the announcers indicated).

I wasn't convinced there was sufficient evidence to merit overturning Ballard's TD (even though I certainly had my doubts he crossed the plane, it is supposed to be "conclusive evidence", and it wasn't). I also wasn't sure about the Collie call either. It certainly looked to me like he secured the ball, "made a football move" before/with the contact, and the ball squirted out as he was hitting the ground. It was also called a reception on the field, and I didn't see conclusive evidence to merit overturning it.

[Kyle]

There was a recent thread about Collinsworth's supposed hatred and bias against the Colts (which I had never noticed), so I paid particular attention in this game. I think that it's some Colts fans who have a problem with their perception, not Collinsworth.

First of all, Collinsworth isn't controlling the replay, the producers in the booth are.

Second, they didn't stop the tape to prevent Colt fans from seeing certain things (how ridiculous), they showed the entire play repeatedly, backwards and forwards from multiple angles.

Third, Luck started his slide WELL before the endzone - if that's the defining action, it wasn't a touchdown.

Fourth, Lucks knee CLEARLY hit the ground before going into the end zone. If that's the defining action, it wasn't a touchdown.

Fifth, the other conspiracy theory thread made it clear that if there is any team that Collinsworth is supposedly more biased against than the Colts, it's the Steelers - the fierce division rivals from his playing days (as opposed to the team from down the highway that he never played a meaningful game against). How do you factor this into your viewpoint? It would have been difficult for him to be biased against both teams simultaneously.

Somewhere there are Steeler fans grumbling about exactly the same thing from the opposite viewpoint. In my viewpoint none of it makes any sense. Collinsworth said complimentary and critical things about both teams. He was completely fair and exhibited no bias towards anyone. More to the point he was far more knowledgeable and entertaining than the analysts we are subjected to on any of the non "prime time" games. If you don't happen to like him, that's your prerogative, but if you take the chip off your shoulder you might enjoy him more.

You have totally got me all wrong.

First: when i was talking about the replay stopping b4 the knee was down, I actually was thinking of Ballard's TD that was reviewed. I got confused, honest mistake .

Second: I was watching another game where the announcer got all excited because he got to control the replay that they draw lines and circles on (cant remember what it is called). so i thought, by the way he was talking also, that he possibly was controlling it. Even if he was controlling it, I certainly did not think he was stopping it early on purpose because it was a Colts TD. I just thought he got confused.

Third: I have no hatred for Collinsworth at all...

Forth: If called correctly, Ballard actually scored the play prior to Luck's run so Luck's run never should have taken place. I agree that he started his slide early and by that definition it should not have been a TD (if Ballard doesn't get his TD the ball should have been on the 1 inch line instead of 1 yard line and he would have been in). I do disagree on the knee being down before he was in but please dont focus on that if you wish to reply.

Long story shory, i think Ballard was in or at least at the inch line, luck was actually down but given the TD as a make up call.... AND i honestly don't dislike collinsworth. (he is annoying on madden though)

[MAC]

You have totally got me all wrong.

First: when i was talking about the replay stopping b4 the knee was down, I actually was thinking of Ballard's TD that was reviewed. I got confused, honest mistake .

Second: I was watching another game where the announcer got all excited because he got to control the replay that they draw lines and circles on (cant remember what it is called). so i thought, by the way he was talking also, that he possibly was controlling it. Even if he was controlling it, I certainly did not think he was stopping it early on purpose because it was a Colts TD. I just thought he got confused.

Third: I have no hatred for Collinsworth at all...

Forth: If called correctly, Ballard actually scored the play prior to Luck's run so Luck's run never should have taken place. I agree that he started his slide early and by that definition it should not have been a TD (if Ballard doesn't get his TD the ball should have been on the 1 inch line instead of 1 yard line and he would have been in). I do disagree on the knee being down before he was in but please dont focus on that if you wish to reply.

Long story shory, i think Ballard was in or at least at the inch line, luck was actually down but given the TD as a make up call.... AND i honestly don't dislike collinsworth. (he is annoying on madden though)

Sorry about painting with a broad brush. The other guy's key point was to call Collinsworth a name, and I thought that you were agreeing with him. It seemed like an extension of the Collinsworth paranoia from the other thread.

I agree with you completely about Ballard. I thought that he was in. I understand why they decided they couldn't change the call, but the spotting of the ball was ridiculous. That whole sequence should have resulted in an easy Colts TD involving a LOT less time and drama.

No worries about the other stuff. I can barely pay attention to a pre-season game (fast forwarding where ever possible). Confusion is my middle name.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I'm not sure I'd agree...

From what I understand, we are now seeing exactly the same replays as the replay officials (or at least that was what the announcers indicated).

I wasn't convinced there was sufficient evidence to merit overturning Ballard's TD (even though I certainly had my doubts he crossed the plane, it is supposed to be "conclusive evidence", and it wasn't). I also wasn't sure about the Collie call either. It certainly looked to me like he secured the ball, "made a football move" before/with the contact, and the ball squirted out as he was hitting the ground. It was also called a reception on the field, and I didn't see conclusive evidence to merit overturning it.

The Ballard TD/Non-TD is a different play/scenario. To me it was a close one...

The Collie play, I think went limp and the ball came free, it just so happened the way he was positioned it looked like more of a catch. They do need to fix the going to the ground concept in what is and isn't a catch because there are debatable examples each year. I'm not even certain the "football move" language is even included at this point.

[dgambill]

There was a recent thread about Collinsworth's supposed hatred and bias against the Colts (which I had never noticed), so I paid particular attention in this game. I think that it's some Colts fans who have a problem with their perception, not Collinsworth.

First of all, Collinsworth isn't controlling the replay, the producers in the booth are.

Second, they didn't stop the tape to prevent Colt fans from seeing certain things (how ridiculous), they showed the entire play repeatedly, backwards and forwards from multiple angles.

Third, Luck started his slide WELL before the endzone - if that's the defining action, it wasn't a touchdown.

Fourth, Lucks knee CLEARLY hit the ground before going into the end zone. If that's the defining action, it wasn't a touchdown.

Fifth, the other conspiracy theory thread made it clear that if there is any team that Collinsworth is supposedly more biased against than the Colts, it's the Steelers - the fierce division rivals from his playing days (as opposed to the team from down the highway that he never played a meaningful game against). How do you factor this into your viewpoint? It would have been difficult for him to be biased against both teams simultaneously.

Somewhere there are Steeler fans grumbling about exactly the same thing from the opposite viewpoint. In my viewpoint none of it makes any sense. Collinsworth said complimentary and critical things about both teams. He was completely fair and exhibited no bias towards anyone. More to the point he was far more knowledgeable and entertaining than the analysts we are subjected to on any of the non "prime time" games. If you don't happen to like him, that's your prerogative, but if you take the chip off your shoulder you might enjoy him more.

Quoted for truthfulness. Its a preseason game so no harm done but these replacement refs make me want to send the NFL a petition to get the real refs signed. They blew two calls there. One the placement if they did deem Ballard down (at the 1!) and this poor call. As for Collinsworth...I thought he was fair and balanced last night. That said he was calling two teams he usually doesn't like to compliment. I wouldn't say overall he is against the Colts but I will say he doesn't generally gush over us.....few do.

[LightninMax]

Ballard scored. Luck didn't. ...and if you're going for the endzone then go all out. He who hesitates pays the price!


I liked Collinsworth and the Bengals when he played and I don't mind him as a color commentator, like all I disagree with him sometimes too.