Jump to content
Indianapolis Colts
Indianapolis Colts Fan Forum

Better or worse?


Superman

Recommended Posts

I'm curious how most people feel about our team, piece by piece, compared to last season. We're still three months away from training camp, and we don't know much yet. But based on what we know now, after the draft, do you think we're better or worse? Or the same?

I just got done rewatching all of last season, so here are my thoughts, unit by unit, with brief comments:

Quarterback: Better

It doesn't get much worse than Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter for 11 games. And Dan-O was better than both of them, but he missed his share of throws also. We'll have a rookie quarterback, but I think he'll be more effective than our Unholy Trio last season.

Running backs: Same

I'll personally miss Addai, but he hasn't produced for us in two years. Brown showed that he's capable of being a weapon, and he's not nearly the liability he's made out to be in pass blocking. Carter looked decent early before he started fumbling. We added Ballard, a very productive college back (29 touchdowns in two seasons). I'm being reserved here, but there's no way our committee is worse this season than last.

Receivers / tight ends: Worse

Lost Garcon, Clark and Tamme. Added a few weapons in the draft. Collie should be better. Improved quarterbacking should help. But on paper, I think we're worse. I'm not that big a fan of Garcon, but he put up solid numbers with terrible passers.

Offensive line: Better

Lost Saturday, who's best days were behind him already. I think we improved both guard spots, and we addressed the tackles in the draft last season. Not sure exactly who is playing where yet, but with health, I think our line is better.

Defensive line: Better

Again, assuming health, we're better. Adding McKinney and Redding in free agency is big, and Chapman is better as a rookie than any nose tackle we had last season. Freeney and Mathis will still play end some of the time. Nevis will be back. We'll use Moala at a position that should be more natural for him.

Linebackers: Same

Moving Freeney, Mathis and Hughes to outside linebacker is a big difference, so long as the three down linemen hold up. Angerer and Conner are good. Lost Wheeler, who was serviceable the past two years, but nothing special. I'm reserving judgment until we see how the 3-4 portion of our defense looks, but I'm optimistic that this unit will be better.

Defensive backs: Same

Same players, for the most part. Added Zbikowski, got rid of Lacey. I think that makes this unit better. I also think the coaching will help this unit, which I'll address in a minute. Again, being conservative, but there's no way this unit is worse than last year.

Special teams: Better

I think we'll have a better return game, having added a couple good return options already. No losses at kicker or punter. I'll have to see Vinatieri fall off before I start dinging him for his age, and he was still booting 50+ yarders last season. I think taking him off kickoff duties has prolonged his career.

Coaching: Better

I think this is the big difference. For instance, our defensive backs and our pass rush should benefit just from using a different scheme, even with the same players. I think, after watching the games, that our corners are better than we ever gave them credit for. They seemed to be more effective playing closer to the line of scrimmage and having the chance to run with their man, rather than playing soft zone and trying to close out. In particular, Kevin Thomas looks like he can play straight man defense for any team in the league. Rucker, not so much, but he's physical and no slouch. Even Lacey wasn't as bad as we made him out to be (I'm still glad he's gone though). So I really think our coaching change will be a huge benefit to certain units on the team.

Overall, I feel good about the way we've changed the makeup of our team, from top to bottom. I definitely wish the Manning Era hadn't ended the way it did, but we always knew it was going to end. Now that it has, I think ownership and the front office have fully embraced the state of the franchise and have made the tough decisions needed to get our team back on track. I've said many times that I don't think it's going to take several seasons for our team to be respectable again. I'm curious what other fans think, unit by unit.

Can't wait for training camp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think receivers and TEs are better. We now have two speedsters instead of one, and they have as good or better hands than Garcon. Reggie is still here, and Collie too. Clark sucks even when he plays, and Tamme was overrated because of Peyton. Everything but LBs (who may be better, but we don't know how Freeney and Mathis will do) and secondary (which may get better with Pagano), and RBs (possibly better as well, maybe Vick is a steal, and Brown and Carter progress more with a great QB) is better. We are improving nearly everywhere. Possible even literally everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Receivers / tight ends: Worse

Lost Garcon, Clark and Tamme. Added a few weapons in the draft. Collie should be better. Improved quarterbacking should help. But on paper, I think we're worse. I'm not that big a fan of Garcon, but he put up solid numbers with terrible passers.

I agree with receivers until proven someone can replace Garcon, but tight ends I think it's better Clark couldn't play all last year, or the year before that, had butterfingers and Tamme only had 177 receiving yards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good points Superman! I only disagree at the TE position. Reason?

Clark was injured, and could not catch a cold. Tamme was 'found' by Orlovsky! Painter had Garcon-itis!

Painter zero'd in on one receiver....Luck's new TE's......priceless!

All can call me stupid later for predicting Fleenor and Allen back to back!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quarterback: Better

Running Back: Same

Wide Receivers: better

Tight Ends: same till proven different no matter the hype

Offensive Line:worse How can you go from a pro bowler at center to back ups and Guard and be better? we may be better at the run but I have questions about pass protection

D-Line: Better

Linebackers: worse, anytime you have to put two defensive ends at the line backer spots that just cant go well especially when one is being paid 14 million dollars doing it for the first time

Defensive Backs: same

Special Teams: Better

Coaching:Better

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My changes to your assessment:

RBs: Same

Receivers/TEs: I'd say we are better because we lacked speed considerably with Garcon being our only deep threat. We did not have the services of Gonzo and White last year, so this year we will have revamped across the board with better health. This category and QB actually goes hand in hand, just having Peyton in there raised the level of production of Receivers/TEs, same will happen with Andrew Luck, IMO.

Offensive Line: Push. New O-line coach, a set of players we have no idea how they will fit into this puzzle, could potentially have 3 new O-line starters. I'd just call it push or neutral at this point. I personally do not think Jeff Saturday has lost it. Packers gave him an offer that exceeded his previous 3 yr. average, the QB makes a good line look great and another category that co-exists with QB play.

Linebackers: Same as offensive line, push. Not sure how they will fit in the new scheme of things either. D-line, we can take comfort in the fact there will at least be 2 of them that can help out with this system being run, so infusion of talent is positive there. Cannot say that definitely about LB.

Same as you for pre-season, can't wait!!! Sorry Bart Scott, for the plagiarism!!! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tight Ends: same till proven different no matter the hype

I agree. I like Fleener, but I'm not ready to proclaim him a true NFL weapon until he proves it. I don't doubt that he will be, I'm just tempering expectations for the sake of this particular exercise.

Offensive Line:worse How can you go from a pro bowler at center to back ups and Guard and be better? we may be better at the run but I have questions about pass protection

Disagree. Jeff Saturday hasn't been a Pro Bowler since 2010 when he was an injury replacement. He was a reserve in 2009. Last time he was a bona fide Pro Bowler was 2007, and in my estimation, that's the last time he deserved it. I love Jeff Saturday, but he's been living off reputation, and he's never been the same since he was hurt in 2008. His play has been nothing special, from a blocking perspective, both in pass protection and in the run game. He's been our most consistent lineman over that time, but that's not saying much. He was also an important part of what Manning did for us, and that can't be replaced by anyone, just like Manning can't. But just in terms of his physical ability and his blocking, I think he's overrated by Colts fans, at this point in time. I think Samson Satele is a better and more physical blocker as of right now.

As for the other linemen, who did we lose? Mike Pollak was in and out of the lineup his entire time here. I thought he got a bad wrap (still don't know why he was benched in 2010), but he's nothing special. Castonzo and Ijalana will be healthy and not rookies anymore. Justice is better than the right tackles we used last season. I also have questions about our pass protection, but I had those same questions last season. I don't see how we're worse here.

Linebackers: worse, anytime you have to put two defensive ends at the line backer spots that just cant go well especially when one is being paid 14 million dollars doing it for the first time

1) What does Freeney's salary have to do with whether our linebacking corps is better or worse?

2) I'm assuming that a) we're not playing 3-4 the majority of the time, and b) when we do play 3-4, Freeney and Mathis are rushing 95% of the time. Even if they're not great, I don't see how they're worse than what we did last season at linebacker. I like how our backers played last year, but they got hung out to dry all season long, against both the run and the pass. This also has to do with coaching.

3) We have other players who can man those outside linebacker spots behind Freeney and Mathis. Hughes and Fugger should be the primary backups there, along with the other players we had on reserve. I'm more worried about depth at inside linebacker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

QB- better...even a rookie Luck is better than Orlovsky & Painter

OL- worse...pro bowler Saturday gone. Winston Justice added but suspect at tackle. Satele is no Saturday.

TE- better...Dallas was washed up and his lack of production showed. Tamme was nothing really special. Fleener and Allen bring youth and talent to a position in need of it.

WR-better...Garcon is gone but we are adding T.Y. Hilton, Donnie Avery, Lavon Brazill with Griff Whalen fighting for a spot as well. There will be much better guys on the depth chart than Blair White. No need to even mention Gonzo.

RB- worse for now. Addai was best overall back on team and the little things he did will be missed. However, he couldn't stay healthy. Will this be the year of consistency for the inconsistent Donald Brown? Not impressed thus far by Delone Carter and his fumbles. Vick Ballard needs to show more than Addai for me to say we have improved here.

Offense as a whole will be better.

DL - better more versatility will allow for different looks according to defensive scheme. For the first time we have personnel that will allow us to play a 3-4 / 4-3 hybrid.

LB- better. Having Freeney and Mathis as outside backers to rush the quarterback makes the unit better but they will be worse as a unit in terms of coverage ability.

Secondary- better. Just from changing away from Cover 2 and 15 yard cusions makes the secondary better even though there is very little personnel change in this area.

Defense as a whole will be better for the sheer fact that Caldwell and Coyer are gone and with them their lackadaisical version of the Cover 2. Pagano will have these guys contesting everything even if they are undermanned talent wise. The defense will at least look like it is trying this year.

Special Teams--much better simply because the presence of T.Y. Hilton on the field gives us a threat in the return game.

Overall...team should be better than last year. But don't get too carried away just yet. 5-11 and a top 10 draft slot to continue the rebuilding effort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep. Pretty much better in every unit. We still contended in most games last year, even without being able to do more than go 3 and out on O, and still giving up easy, totally uncontested completions up and down the field on D. Add some better players everywhere, a competent coaching staff with new schemes, and a hungry football team, I think we'll be pretty solid next year.......

.....and people think I'm a homer for being optimistic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Defense as a whole will be better for the sheer fact that Caldwell and Coyer are gone and with them their lackadaisical version of the Cover 2. Pagano will have these guys contesting everything even if they are undermanned talent wise. The defense will at least look like it is trying this year.

I like the way you put that. Cover 2 in and of itself isn't the problem. The problem was the way Coyer was using it. I've never seen any NFL defense do what we did last season.

For instance, against the Bengals, in the first quarter, they went trips left, iso right, and one back in the backfield. Powers is outside by himself playing eight yards off, Sims takes a few steps that way, but stays tight to the line. No safety rotates over the top. They throw a quick screen to a receiver on the left, Powers gets blocked out of the play, and no one gets over there to take the ball carrier down until he picks up the first down about fifteen yards later. What kind of defense is that? When a team goes trips, we don't even flinch in the direction of the bunch? It was infuriating watching our "defense" last season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the way you put that. Cover 2 in and of itself isn't the problem. The problem was the way Coyer was using it. I've never seen any NFL defense do what we did last season.

For instance, against the Bengals, in the first quarter, they went trips left, iso right, and one back in the backfield. Powers is outside by himself playing eight yards off, Sims takes a few steps that way, but stays tight to the line. No safety rotates over the top. They throw a quick screen to a receiver on the left, Powers gets blocked out of the play, and no one gets over there to take the ball carrier down until he picks up the first down about fifteen yards later. What kind of defense is that? When a team goes trips, we don't even flinch in the direction of the bunch? It was infuriating watching our "defense" last season.

I love your observation
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Defense always played 5 to 10 yards off WR's last season. it was pathetic. hopefuly mangusky and pagano change that up and make it a more physical defense then a race to the ball type of defense. Rattle the QB and put some fear into him, shake up the WR's early. the colts need to be one of the most feared defenses in the league, like Pittsburgh and Baltimore and now even San Fran

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Receivers / tight ends: Worse

Lost Garcon, Clark and Tamme. Added a few weapons in the draft. Collie should be better. Improved quarterbacking should help. But on paper, I think we're worse. I'm not that big a fan of Garcon, but he put up solid numbers with terrible passers.

I disagree. Getting the best 2 tight ends in the draft was the best thing they could do. Luck will need all the help he can get from TE play. I'll just make this short and say that the colts did well and surround Luck with good players. All of you screaming for D, need to take a chill pill. You don't draft the best QB in forever, and draft defense. The colts were close to bare on offense. At least the colts made some moves on D, and can be average. Without the moves they made during the draft, they would be hurting on O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Truthfully?

Quarterback: Better

Running Back: Even, but will have more yards because of an improved oline.

Wide Receivers: Even

Tight Ends: Two studs? Better.

Offensive Line: Considerably better

D-Line: Better

Linebackers: worse.

Defensive Backs: Even

Special Teams: Better

Coaching: Better

GM: Better

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if Luck gets time in the pocket we will be pretty good on offense this year, I say we are in for a long year on defense with a improvement in stopping the run, and hopefully an improvent in coverage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some positions are easy:

QB - better

DT - better

Safety- better

RB- better (Addai has hardly played in two years)

TE-better on paper

Others are harder:

Oline: only 2 of last years starters return and who knows what positions guys will play.

WR- totally different group. new small speed guys. oline will impact this

CB- lost Lacey gained UDFA. improvement?

LB- add freeneyand mathis, lose Wheeler, we will see

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm curious how most people feel about our team, piece by piece, compared to last season. We're still three months away from training camp, and we don't know much yet. But based on what we know now, after the draft, do you think we're better or worse? Or the same?

I just got done rewatching all of last season, so here are my thoughts, unit by unit, with brief comments:

Quarterback: Better

It doesn't get much worse than Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter for 11 games. And Dan-O was better than both of them, but he missed his share of throws also. We'll have a rookie quarterback, but I think he'll be more effective than our Unholy Trio last season.

Running backs: Same

I'll personally miss Addai, but he hasn't produced for us in two years. Brown showed that he's capable of being a weapon, and he's not nearly the liability he's made out to be in pass blocking. Carter looked decent early before he started fumbling. We added Ballard, a very productive college back (29 touchdowns in two seasons). I'm being reserved here, but there's no way our committee is worse this season than last.

Receivers / tight ends: Worse

Lost Garcon, Clark and Tamme. Added a few weapons in the draft. Collie should be better. Improved quarterbacking should help. But on paper, I think we're worse. I'm not that big a fan of Garcon, but he put up solid numbers with terrible passers.

Offensive line: Better

Lost Saturday, who's best days were behind him already. I think we improved both guard spots, and we addressed the tackles in the draft last season. Not sure exactly who is playing where yet, but with health, I think our line is better.

Defensive line: Better

Again, assuming health, we're better. Adding McKinney and Redding in free agency is big, and Chapman is better as a rookie than any nose tackle we had last season. Freeney and Mathis will still play end some of the time. Nevis will be back. We'll use Moala at a position that should be more natural for him.

Linebackers: Same

Moving Freeney, Mathis and Hughes to outside linebacker is a big difference, so long as the three down linemen hold up. Angerer and Conner are good. Lost Wheeler, who was serviceable the past two years, but nothing special. I'm reserving judgment until we see how the 3-4 portion of our defense looks, but I'm optimistic that this unit will be better.

Defensive backs: Same

Same players, for the most part. Added Zbikowski, got rid of Lacey. I think that makes this unit better. I also think the coaching will help this unit, which I'll address in a minute. Again, being conservative, but there's no way this unit is worse than last year.

Special teams: Better

I think we'll have a better return game, having added a couple good return options already. No losses at kicker or punter. I'll have to see Vinatieri fall off before I start dinging him for his age, and he was still booting 50+ yarders last season. I think taking him off kickoff duties has prolonged his career.

Coaching: Better

I think this is the big difference. For instance, our defensive backs and our pass rush should benefit just from using a different scheme, even with the same players. I think, after watching the games, that our corners are better than we ever gave them credit for. They seemed to be more effective playing closer to the line of scrimmage and having the chance to run with their man, rather than playing soft zone and trying to close out. In particular, Kevin Thomas looks like he can play straight man defense for any team in the league. Rucker, not so much, but he's physical and no slouch. Even Lacey wasn't as bad as we made him out to be (I'm still glad he's gone though). So I really think our coaching change will be a huge benefit to certain units on the team.

Overall, I feel good about the way we've changed the makeup of our team, from top to bottom. I definitely wish the Manning Era hadn't ended the way it did, but we always knew it was going to end. Now that it has, I think ownership and the front office have fully embraced the state of the franchise and have made the tough decisions needed to get our team back on track. I've said many times that I don't think it's going to take several seasons for our team to be respectable again. I'm curious what other fans think, unit by unit.

Can't wait for training camp.

I agree with most of this except I feel that the linebacker position is better, simply because of the experience of Angerer and Conner playing last season and now they both get to participate in an actual full off season OTAs and training camp that will only help their development.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep. Pretty much better in every unit. We still contended in most games last year, even without being able to do more than go 3 and out on O, and still giving up easy, totally uncontested completions up and down the field on D. Add some better players everywhere, a competent coaching staff with new schemes, and a hungry football team, I think we'll be pretty solid next year.......

.....and people think I'm a homer for being optimistic.

Welcome to the club! :number1:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except for QB, I think we have no idea if we're better than last year. Simply because we don't know the difference in the coaching approach until we see a game or two.

I agree with everyone that the way we played the cover 2, and defense in general, was totally frustrating. Giving a 12 yard cushion on 3rd and 7 drove me nuts. I'd rather play tight, put pressure on the QB, and either make the play or give up a big play.

Bend, don't break works okay when your offense is scoring on just about every drive. Not when you're going 3 and out half the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Being better than the 2011 version of the Colts should not be too hard but I have serious questions on how that will translate into wins. Having said that, I really like the direction this team is going and feel they will positioned in a few years to be contenders. Just may take until 2013 or 14 for that to be realized.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree. Getting the best 2 tight ends in the draft was the best thing they could do. Luck will need all the help he can get from TE play. I'll just make this short and say that the colts did well and surround Luck with good players. All of you screaming for D, need to take a chill pill. You don't draft the best QB in forever, and draft defense. The colts were close to bare on offense. At least the colts made some moves on D, and can be average. Without the moves they made during the draft, they would be hurting on O.

If I had to separate that grade, I'd probably go receivers worse, tight ends same. At least for right now. I'm planning on doing this comparison every few games next season, but as of right now, Fleener and Allen are unproven. I know that, when healthy, Tamme and Clark could catch 70+ balls in a season (Tamme did 67 in 8 games in 2010). I believe Fleener and Allen can do that, but I'm being conservative for right now.

At receiver, on paper, we're worse, because we lost Garcon. He put up some pretty impressive numbers considering the quarterbacks we used. I like Collie better, whether inside or outside, but Garcon proved himself to be a weapon last season. I fully expect us to get more production out of our receivers across the board this season, partly because of improved quarterbacking, but also because we have weapons. But at this point, again, the added weapons are unproven. I absolutely LOVE T.Y. Hilton, and was talking about him before the draft, so I'm thrilled that we got him. Again, I'm tempering my expectations for now.

Lastly, I like what we did with the draft. I value the free agent additions on defense and the changing scheme more than most people on this board, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with most of this except I feel that the linebacker position is better, simply because of the experience of Angerer and Conner playing last season and now they both get to participate in an actual full off season OTAs and training camp that will only help their development.

You know Angerer and Conner weren't rookies last year, right? It was their second year, and they got the benefit of a full offseason in 2010. Of course more coaching will help them and all the young players on the team. Just pointing out that they weren't thrown to the wolves with no OTAs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Offensive Line:worse How can you go from a pro bowler at center to back ups and Guard and be better? we may be better at the run but I have questions about pass protection

Jeff Saturday wasn't a pro bowler last season. He's being replaced by a younger player who started 15 games last year for the Raiders and who, quite frankly, was a better football player than Saturday was in 2011. What does this sentence even mean: "How can you go from a pro bowler at center to back ups and Guard and be better?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeff Saturday wasn't a pro bowler last season. He's being replaced by a younger player who started 15 games last year for the Raiders and who, quite frankly, was a better football player than Saturday was in 2011. What does this sentence even mean: "How can you go from a pro bowler at center to back ups and Guard and be better?"

Mike MCglynn a back up only played in 18 games in his 4 year career, Seth Olsen 9 games, what I mean is the O Line has alot to prove still I meant backups AT Guard because thats what they primarily were, we needed a Guard in the draft, preferably Brandon Washington in the later rounds
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike MCglynn a back up only played in 18 games in his 4 year career, Seth Olsen 9 games, what I mean is the O Line has alot to prove still I meant backups AT Guard because thats what they primarily were, we needed a Guard in the draft, preferably Brandon Washington in the later rounds

He's talking about Samson Satele. The guy is going to be a top 5 Center for us......mark it down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not having Curtis Painter as the QB and a new defensive scheme that doesn't involve playing 10 yards off the receiver should by itself make the team better going into the season.... who knows how the year will play out and what impact injuries will have on their performance.

I don't expect this to be a 9 - 10 win team, but I think 5 or 6 wins will be about right and this team will show promise for the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He's talking about Samson Satele. The guy is going to be a top 5 Center for us......mark it down.

could happen but Im still not sold on our Guards or heck even tackles at this point although with a full training camp I expect that to be better
Link to comment
Share on other sites

could happen but Im still not sold on our Guards or heck even tackles at this point although with a full training camp I expect that to be better

Castonzo - Future stud at LT

Reitz - Still learning the position and game, very underappreciated last year.

Ijalana - Has all the athleticism for a Tackle, but will probably play guard. I'm sure he has the strength to push DTs around.

Justice - Only one I have a question about, but mostly because of injury.

Oline is pretty good right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Castonzo - Future stud at LT

Reitz - Still learning the position and game, very underappreciated last year.

Ijalana - Has all the athleticism for a Tackle, but will probably play guard. I'm sure he has the strength to push DTs around.

Justice - Only one I have a question about, but mostly because of injury.

Oline is pretty good right now.

thats to many assumptions for my blood, would have loved to get Cordy Glenn, Amini Silatolu, Osemele, Brandon Brooks, Brandon Washington
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike MCglynn a back up only played in 18 games in his 4 year career, Seth Olsen 9 games, what I mean is the O Line has alot to prove still I meant backups AT Guard because thats what they primarily were, we needed a Guard in the draft, preferably Brandon Washington in the later rounds

I don't believe either of those guys are projected to start, though. As compared to last year, we'll have the same starting LG this season as last season (Reitz), and depending on whether or not you think Ijalana will be an upgrade from Diem - 10 starts / Pollak - 5 starts / Tepper - 1 start (personally I don't think the Diem/Pollak/Tepper hodgepodge set the bar high at all), RG is where we would potentially be much improved from last year. Most people also would probably think Reitz will be better this season as last season was his first as a starter and he has yet to reach his ceiling as a football player.

That being said, I am in agreement that I would have liked to see us draft a guard in the first half of the draft. I was one who wanted Corby Glenn with our 2nd round pick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...