Change of defensive philosophy needed?

[Moosejawcolt]

My biggest take away from the draft was the Seahawks. I was so convinced that they were taking Carter. However the other shock was their investment in Witherspoon. The Seahawks never ever use capital that high on a corner. They prefer the middle round zone corners. It told me that they want to play more man defense. Pete recognizes that the defense they employ is archaic and last night, he sent that message loud and clear. I know Ballard has tried to replicate that defense in Indy and I have never supported it. I say they stick to drafting O to support Richardson and focus next years draft on rebuilding the D with a more modern and flexible scheme. 

 

[AwesomeAustin]

I’m not as concerned about the scheme as I am the pass rush.  We have good players up the middle of the defense.  Still need a pro bowl caliber edge rusher and corner.  We have to be able to get to the Quarterback 

[chad72]

After this season I expect us to sour on Gus Bradley who I’ve never been convinced is the guy to get us stops when push comes to shove. 

[Nickster]

Bradley’s scheme is thought by some to be a little dated.  It demands outstanding S play to cover C3s inherent weakness n the alleys.

[Btown_Colt]

10 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Bradley’s scheme is thought by some to be a little dated.  It demands outstanding S play to cover C3s inherent weakness n the alleys.

Ballard just said they intend to play more man. Maybe some needed changes are coming.

[Nickster]

4 minutes ago, Btown_Colt said:

Ballard just said they intend to play more man. Maybe some needed changes are coming.

Too bad Gilmore wasn’t a couple years younger then.  This kid seems like a zone body anyway.

[Btown_Colt]

Just now, Nickster said:

Too bad Gilmore wasn’t a couple years younger then.  This kid seems like a zone body anyway.

From what I’ve seen/read that does seem to be his strength. But is also known for being physical and is good at press man…I’m sure there is some needed development but seems like some one you could get playing time early/situationally as you make the transition.

[Nickster]

Just now, Btown_Colt said:

From what I’ve seen/read that does seem to be his strength. But is also known for being physical and is good at press man…I’m sure there is some needed development but seems like some one you could get playing time early/situationally as you make the transition.

Sounds like he might be able to press an X but not a Z type which would be fine really.

[Nickster]

5 hours ago, AwesomeAustin said:

I’m not as concerned about the scheme as I am the pass rush.  We have good players up the middle of the defense.  Still need a pro bowl caliber edge rusher and corner.  We have to be able to get to the Quarterback 

I disagree about having very good defenders in the middle of the zone.  Our LBs are weaker in coverage and we got mediocre S play at best.  We have really good players in the middle of the Dline if that’s what you were referencing.

[Nickster]

12 minutes ago, Btown_Colt said:

From what I’ve seen/read that does seem to be his strength. But is also known for being physical and is good at press man…I’m sure there is some needed development but seems like some one you could get playing time early/situationally as you make the transition.

I think we are going to really get a glimpse of how good Gilmore was for the teanpm and will really struggle in the. Secondary IMO this year but it doesn’t really matter.  We are clearly in rebuild mode in my opinion.  I think we will win very few games next season which isn’t necessarily a bad thing going into 2024 draft and having a Raw inexperienced QB prospect.

 

It’s the correct decision too IMO.  Cb has certainly changed the plan and really needed to.  aR is not in the least a typical Ballard QB at least totally different than what he’s ended up with. The CB is typical of Ballard kinda like RYS somewhat with the physicality, but the slot is way out of character.  It looks like he’s realized his Sacred PLan didn’t work which is good because it obviously didn’t work.

[ProblChld32]

7 minutes ago, Nickster said:

I disagree about having very good defenders in the middle of the zone.  Our LBs are weaker in coverage and we got mediocre S play at best.  We have really good players in the middle of the Dline if that’s what you were referencing.

Maniac might be one of the better Cover LBs on the NFL. Before Bobby O left he was graded as a Top 5 cover corner. As far as safety’s go. Rodney Thomas year two should be an absolute stud. What he did in year one was phenomenal. Nick Cross should come along and we still have Blackmon.

[Nickster]

11 minutes ago, ProblChld32 said:

Maniac might be one of the better Cover LBs on the NFL. Before Bobby O left he was graded as a Top 5 cover corner. As far as safety’s go. Rodney Thomas year two should be an absolute stud. What he did in year one was phenomenal. Nick Cross should come along and we still have Blackmon.

Man Shaq is very mediocre in coverage.  That has always been the weakest part of his game.  
 

Thomas played at a replaceable level man.  I don’t get that take of yours .  54 Pff.  That is not legit starter level.  He’s very limited athletically.  Cross was a disappointment and Bradley’s d is not kind to Blackmon.  The reason cross played so much is because JB and Nc didn’t get the job done.  He didn’t so much win the job as cross lost it.  Not saying he can’t improve but the late draft pick was preferred.  Not NC.

 

Blackmon needs to be in a 2 high C2 based scheme IMo. So he can get downhill and make hits from Ss.  His skill set isn’t conducive to the single high scheme imo.

[Btown_Colt]

9 hours ago, Nickster said:

I think we are going to really get a glimpse of how good Gilmore was for the teanpm and will really struggle in the. Secondary IMO this year but it doesn’t really matter.  We are clearly in rebuild mode in my opinion.  I think we will win very few games next season which isn’t necessarily a bad thing going into 2024 draft and having a Raw inexperienced QB prospect.

 

It’s the correct decision too IMO.  Cb has certainly changed the plan and really needed to.  aR is not in the least a typical Ballard QB at least totally different than what he’s ended up with. The CB is typical of Ballard kinda like RYS somewhat with the physicality, but the slot is way out of character.  It looks like he’s realized his Sacred PLan didn’t work which is good because it obviously didn’t work.

No argument here on Gilbert. Just is what it is I suppose. And I’m not trying to claim the Colts won’t struggle this year. 
 

But I am optimistic some of the issues we’ve seen over the past few years are being corrected.

[Rhodelesstraveled]

I think the Colts D has been a problem a long time.  Now that Leonard is unlikely to be what he was it needs to change faster.  

[Rhodelesstraveled]

Gilmore was solid.  The new CB is a measurable guy who has a lot of problems in coverage and bad ball skills.  He is the anti-Gilmore.  I think Grigson and Ballard are our real problems.  And those lead directly to Irsay's choices.  

[Jackie Daytona]

10 hours ago, Btown_Colt said:

Ballard just said they intend to play more man. Maybe some needed changes are coming.

Yeah but drafted a massive and highly skilled zone corner...

[DougDew]

Well, we just drafted a 6'3 210 pound athletic freak of a Corner, but who is too slow to be a deep press man corner and is projected as a zone corner only.  I don't see a change of philosophy anytime soon.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Well, we just drafted a 6'3 210 pound athletic freak of a Corner, but who is too slow to be a deep press man corner and is projected as a zone corner only.  I don't see a change of philosophy anytime soon.

That's why I said to draft offense this year. My concern is that they draft these players this year and  Steichen wants to go in a different direction next year. A waste of a draft as these players may not fit the next coaches scheme. Just a thought. Although this guy could play safety and the guy in the fourth could play DE in a new scheme.

[hoosierhawk]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Well, we just drafted a 6'3 210 pound athletic freak of a Corner, but who is too slow to be a deep press man corner and is projected as a zone corner only.  I don't see a change of philosophy anytime soon.

Have you watched his film. Most all his INTs were more than 20 yards down the field and a few well beyond that. You say he is too slow but there are a lot of good corners 'too slow'also.

[ProblChld32]

13 hours ago, Nickster said:

Man Shaq is very mediocre in coverage.  That has always been the weakest part of his game.  
 

Thomas played at a replaceable level man.  I don’t get that take of yours .  54 Pff.  That is not legit starter level.  He’s very limited athletically.  Cross was a disappointment and Bradley’s d is not kind to Blackmon.  The reason cross played so much is because JB and Nc didn’t get the job done.  He didn’t so much win the job as cross lost it.  Not saying he can’t improve but the late draft pick was preferred.  Not NC.

 

Blackmon needs to be in a 2 high C2 based scheme IMo. So he can get downhill and make hits from Ss.  His skill set isn’t conducive to the single high scheme imo.

we can agree to disagree, you don’t get as many interceptions as he’s had by being poor in coverage.

[sb41champs]

If there was a need to change up the defensive scheme - it would have been done much earlier this off-season.

 

I like our defensive staff - and - believe that our Colts D can be much better than last year.

 

We draft players to fit OUR scheme - NOT - the other way around.

[Btown_Colt]

5 hours ago, Jackie Daytona said:

Yeah but drafted a massive and highly skilled zone corner...

He didn’t say strictly man. If you listen to comments Ballard made, he addressed it when discussing picking Brents.

[TrueBlue12]

16 hours ago, Nickster said:

Man Shaq is very mediocre in coverage.  That has always been the weakest part of his game.  
 

Thomas played at a replaceable level man.  I don’t get that take of yours .  54 Pff.  That is not legit starter level.  He’s very limited athletically.  Cross was a disappointment and Bradley’s d is not kind to Blackmon.  The reason cross played so much is because JB and Nc didn’t get the job done.  He didn’t so much win the job as cross lost it.  Not saying he can’t improve but the late draft pick was preferred.  Not NC.

 

Blackmon needs to be in a 2 high C2 based scheme IMo. So he can get downhill and make hits from Ss.  His skill set isn’t conducive to the single high scheme imo.

I'm not so certain Thomas is very limited athletically. I don't know where you got that idea. His RAS was 9.24....excellent.

[Nickster]

3 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

Have you watched his film. Most all his INTs were more than 20 yards down the field and a few well beyond that. You say he is too slow but there are a lot of good corners 'too slow'also.

Those guys are usually zone corners though man.  

[Nickster]

52 minutes ago, TrueBlue12 said:

I'm not so certain Thomas is very limited athletically. I don't know where you got that idea. His RAS was 9.24....excellent.

I was totally wrong about his athleticism.  

[NewColtsFan]

On 4/28/2023 at 2:59 PM, Moosejawcolt said:

My biggest take away from the draft was the Seahawks. I was so convinced that they were taking Carter. However the other shock was their investment in Witherspoon. The Seahawks never ever use capital that high on a corner. They prefer the middle round zone corners. It told me that they want to play more man defense. Pete recognizes that the defense they employ is archaic and last night, he sent that message loud and clear. I know Ballard has tried to replicate that defense in Indy and I have never supported it. I say they stick to drafting O to support Richardson and focus next years draft on rebuilding the D with a more modern and flexible scheme. 

 

@Moosejawcolt   Here's your shout out! 

There are plenty of teams who play zone, but I would not be surprised if there’s a change in defense some where down the road.   I think it’s only a question of time.   
 

One of the things we all saw during the search for the new HC, is that Ballard interviewed far more DC’s than OC’s during the search.   I don’t have the exact numbers, but if the Colts interviewed 15 candidates, the breakdown was roughly 10-5, or 9-6 in favor of defense.  I don’t think that was an accident or coincidence.   I think Ballard was interviewing the best DC minds to get the latest defensive thinking, the latest defensive trends.   And I think that points to a change in the future.  The question is when? 
 

One of the reasons why I think CB prefers his system is because he doesn’t have to pay top man-corners premium money.  Ballard can pay his zone corners $6-10 mill per (maybe a little more as the cap goes up) but I don’t think he wants to pay them $13-18 mill per.    That allows Ballard to pay his four d-lineman and his one key linebacker.  The money Ballard saved at corner, he spends elsewhere.  And up until last year, the Colts have typically had a top 10-12 defense.   There has been a method to his madness.  
 

But the salary cap is about to explode after shrinking a few years due to Covid.  I think as it goes up, I believe Ballard’s approach may evolve.   Steichen will get a chance to have a voice in his next DC.   Unless Bradley does a miraculous job in the next year or two, I think a change is coming.  I just don’t know when. 
 

@Moosejawcolt   I don’t know that we agree entirely, but I think this is close enough to make a public point of it.   

[Moosejawcolt]

11 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

@Moosejawcolt   Here's your shout out! 

There are plenty of teams who play zone, but I would not be surprised if there’s a change in defense some where down the road.   I think it’s only a question of time.   
 

One of the things we all saw during the search for the new HC, is that Ballard interviewed far more DC’s than OC’s during the search.   I don’t have the exact numbers, but if the Colts interviewed 15 candidates, the breakdown was roughly 10-5, or 9-6 in favor of defense.  I don’t think that was an accident or coincidence.   I think Ballard was interviewing the best DC minds to get the latest defensive thinking, the latest defensive trends.   And I think that points to a change in the future.  The question is when? 
 

One of the reasons why I think CB prefers his system is because he doesn’t have to pay top man-corners premium money.  Ballard can pay his zone corners $6-10 mill per (maybe a little more as the cap goes up) but I don’t think he wants to pay them $13-18 mill per.    That allows Ballard to pay his four d-lineman and his one key linebacker.  The money Ballard saved at corner, he spends elsewhere.  And up until last year, the Colts have typically had a top 10-12 defense.   There has been a method to his madness.  
 

But the salary cap is about to explode after shrinking a few years due to Covid.  I think as it goes up, I believe Ballard’s approach may evolve.   Steichen will get a chance to have a voice in his next DC.   Unless Bradley does a miraculous job in the next year or two, I think a change is coming.  I just don’t know when. 
 

@Moosejawcolt   I don’t know that we agree entirely, but I think this is close enough to make a public point of it.   

I think he has always used the argument that it is a cheaper defense to build as you invest you  in your front four and build the back end with day two and even day three talent. The only problem is that for this defense to be effective, you have to build an elite defensive line and he has not been able to do that. I am hoping for a scheme change. I agree with your point that they brought in guys because I think this defense is archaic and Ballard is starting to realize that. Bradely was retained because i think Steichen just wanted to focus on the offense and Richardson and  I really don't think the Colts expect to be challenging for a play off spot. So, Irsay doesn't have to pay off another coach and maybe Bradley can tweak his system to incorporate more man coverages.

[jbaron04]

On 4/28/2023 at 11:12 PM, Nickster said:

Bradley’s scheme is thought by some to be a little dated.  It demands outstanding S play to cover C3s inherent weakness n the alleys.

Gus did say that he is gonna evolve the scheme and do some different things. The reality of the Situation no matter what scheme we run if the pass rush doesn’t get better and players stay healthy we won’t be good. Think of the commanders game when Gilmore had to cover for what felt like and eternity. 

[throwing BBZ]

 

 We had the best pass rush in years. With Kwity and Dayo on the rise, and very solid FA adds at DT and DE, pass rush is not a worry.

 JMO that Steichen will not be passive with Gus. He will help him and his coaches with strategy and game planning in a positive way.

 Our new corners are going to get quite the indoctrination. 

 

 

[Stephen]

On 4/29/2023 at 9:40 AM, Rhodelesstraveled said:

I think the Colts D has been a problem a long time.  Now that Leonard is unlikely to be what he was it needs to change faster.  

The offense was the problem last year

[hoosierhawk]

On 4/29/2023 at 9:40 AM, Rhodelesstraveled said:

I think the Colts D has been a problem a long time.  Now that Leonard is unlikely to be what he was it needs to change faster.  

Have you ever had a favorable post concerning the Colts? If so I have not seen it.

[Moosejawcolt]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:35 AM, DougDew said:

Well, we just drafted a 6'3 210 pound athletic freak of a Corner, but who is too slow to be a deep press man corner and is projected as a zone corner only.  I don't see a change of philosophy anytime soon.

Sure he can jump high and far but he is a 4.5 corner so I think the RAS is really misleading.  I would not rate him that high athletically if he can only run 4.5. For a guy to be a freak, he would have to be a Ramsey clone.

[Moosejawcolt]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

The offense was the problem last year

The Oline was abysmal . If you go back the last 5 years under this FO, the defense always performs poorly against balanced offences. Average qbs put up hall of fame numbers. The defense was excused  last  year because people said they were always gassed and just gave out. I look at history and rate them based on that. I think people need to open their eyes and realize that this defensive philosophy is old in the tooth. They run this system for most of the game and qbs eventually have a comfort zone and they really don't have the talent up front to run it effectively. It is like a team that continually blitzes all game and have poor secondary play. Teams that blitz need to have elite corners as they are put on an island. We are kind of the opposite. We need an elite front four because our corners are average and if left a lone, they will get torched

[Superman]

10 minutes ago, Moosejawcolt said:

I think the RAS is really misleading

 

That means you don't understand RAS.

[BlackTiger]

According to pff the league in general uses zones most of the time now.  

[chad72]

We fix the pass rush, corners can play zone and cheat/fool more, IMO. It is hard to cheat in press coverage. You cheat, you are toast.

 

So, the key to the whole philosophy is the pocket push and pass rush, whether it is rushing four or occasional blitzing. The long armed CBs are useful for passing lanes since it is not easy unless you are an elite QB to throw with the perfect amount of touch to get the throws past those long arms 

[throwing BBZ]

46 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Have you ever had a favorable post concerning the Colts? If so I have not seen it.

 

 A health Ignore list will not disappoint you. 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Sure he can jump high and far but he is a 4.5 corner so I think the RAS is really misleading.  I would not rate him that high athletically if he can only run 4.5. For a guy to be a freak, he would have to be a Ramsey clone.

Yes, 4.5 speed is why he is not considered a press man corner...stay with his man into deep coverage.  The size is good for tackling.  That and the lack of deep speed is what makes him a zone corner, and the 2nd round investment says that Ballard does not plan to change schemes anytime soon, IMO.   

 

Having twitch is good for a corner.  If you want to try to understand that, then look at the pure numbers for the 3 cone and the shuttle (which is the closest data point for that) and forget about the overall RAS score,

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Moosejawcolt said:

Sure he can jump high and far but he is a 4.5 corner so I think the RAS is really misleading.  I would not rate him that high athletically if he can only run 4.5. For a guy to be a freak, he would have to be a Ramsey clone.

One of the reasons teams play zone is that you don’t need corners who run sub-4.5

 

Teans are paying more attention to the vertical and broad jumps to measure explosiveness and they’re also focused on the shuttle and 3-come to rate change of direction for short area quickness.   
 

Sub-4.5 40’s are good, but much more so for man defense than zone. 

[Hawkeyecolt]

20 hours ago, jbaron04 said:

Gus did say that he is gonna evolve the scheme and do some different things. The reality of the Situation no matter what scheme we run if the pass rush doesn’t get better and players stay healthy we won’t be good. Think of the commanders game when Gilmore had to cover for what felt like and eternity. 

Good point. And he did that last year from game to game.  He wasnt always sitting in the same cover-3.  He brought a much different look against KC than past years.  
 

Paye, Dayo, Buckner, Grover, Ebukam, Lewis, AA, Leo, Bryan, Johnson, Williams is a nice group of dlineman.  Gus is going to have a nice wave of pass rushers.