Sweat or Banogu & 2020 2nd?

[BProland85]

So I wanted to revisit the trade down Ballard made with the Redskins. Who here prefers staying put and taking Sweat over getting Banogu and Washington's 2020 2nd?

 

Sweat was considered a top 3 edge rusher in this class, and a lot will depend on if he checks out long term with his heart condition. If he does, I think Ballard may have made a mistake here. You simply don't pass on guys like Sweat if he checks out medically in my opinion. 

 

I hope Banogu surprises me though. He just seems much more raw than Sweat, and doesn't have as good of a pass rush repertoire. 

[Gigc]

I talked about this in the Ballard's draft post. It's definitely the defining decision of this year's draft. You could have picked the exact same players EXCEPT stayed at 26 and picking Sweat instead of getting 49 (and a 2 next year) and picking Banogu.

It's interesting. NFL.com did combine breakdown of the most athletic players and Sweat and Banogu tied at 99. Sweat was faster, but Sweat was more explosive in other areas. 

Here's what I think watching the video game clips of both guys. Sweat is first and foremost a pass rusher --- a "going forward" guy. I think that Banogu is much more athletic moving backward and side to side. Ballard hinted that this was a consideration when he said they're toying with the idea of moving Banogu all around, at SAM, at Mike, as a pass rusher. 

I think he's much more of a chess piece than Sweat. 

But Sweat could be a double-digit sack guy down the road. That's what this draft could be defined by years from now.

[Two_pound]

 I watched the first half of the TCU-Ohio State game yesterday. Banogu was not very effective as a rush end. He did have 2 tfl. He is much better suited for SAM which I believe is why we drafted him. On a side note LJ Collier was not very impressive(Seahawk first round pick). I also watched Mississippi St. versus Iowa. Sweat, Simmons, and Green were all pretty good. Abram was real good. Peters hurt his ankle. I know it was only one game for each team but I've seen almost all Ohio St. games  from the last 3 seasons and Campbell is the real deal.

[Two_pound]

 And to answer the question I would rather have Banogu and that 2nd round pick next year because I expect it to fall between 34-39. (Miami will probably have pick 33)

[BOTT]

I think it's clear sweat didnt check out medically for most teams....or he wouldn't have fallen to 26.

[Boiler_Colt]

They were never going to take Sweat because it was reported that the Colts doctors gave it a thumbs down therefore he was off their board. It will be interesting to see if he plays a long and healthy career like everyone hopes. I wanted Sweat but I can see why they passed. I wouldnt be able to live it down if I drafted a guy with a known condition and something horrible happened.

[The Oopty Oop]

Thought I read a tweet about sweat saying he wasnt the type of player who could be yelled at by coaching. So doesnt take criticism well so that seems like an easy decision to take off our board.

[pacolts56]

Yes.... there were those reports that he doesn't take well to hard coaching. 

 

Whatever the case.... hopefully Banogu proves to be the Swiss Army knife he's being touted as.

 

As for Sweat?

 

May he have a terrific rookie season as the Redskins stink to high heavens and finish 4-12. 

 

 

[crazycolt1]

I'm not worried about what Sweat does at all. The only way he may effect us is when we play the Skins every four years or if we meet in the super bowl.

Ballard wasn't gambling on his health issue.

Not really much more to say IMO.

[EastStreet]

I'd have taken Sweat or Tillery. We're going to face 7 of the top 11 passing teams this year. JT and Sweat both could have made clear impacts. Not sure I can say the same about Banogu. Hope I'm wrong.

[Buck Showalter]

That extra 2nd rounder's gonna be sweet next year!!!

[crazycolt1]

21 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

I'd have taken Sweat or Tillery. We're going to face 7 of the top 11 passing teams this year. JT and Sweat both could have made clear impacts. Not sure I can say the same about Banogu. Hope I'm wrong.

Speed, swarming and nasty more than makes up for one player IMO.

[EastStreet]

19 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Speed, swarming and nasty more than makes up for one player IMO.

right now we can only gauge Banogu vs Sweat/Tillery. We won't know till next year what the other 2nd buys us. this coming year, i'd bet a lot of money that JT and Sweat (if healthy) have significantly better year 1 stats.

 

I'd also say that Sweat is a lot more speed/swarm/nasty than Banogu.

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, BProland85 said:

So I wanted to revisit the trade down Ballard made with the Redskins. Who here prefers staying put and taking Sweat over getting Banogu and Washington's 2020 2nd?

 

Sweat was considered a top 3 edge rusher in this class, and a lot will depend on if he checks out long term with his heart condition. If he does, I think Ballard may have made a mistake here. You simply don't pass on guys like Sweat if he checks out medically in my opinion. 

 

I hope Banogu surprises me though. He just seems much more raw than Sweat, and doesn't have as good of a pass rush repertoire. 

 

I don’t think you understand.   Sweat was OFF THE COLTS BOARD.   He was off the board of almost all teams.  That’s how he fell to pick 26.

 

Ballard didn’t have a choice.   Doctors removed him from the board.   They do on all 32 teams.   Otherwise Sweat would’ve gone roughly 15-18 pucks sooner than he did. 

 

No one is arguing Banogu is better than Sweat.   Banogu is the result of Ballard’s decision to move down and maximize value.   A mid-round two this  year, and a likely high-round two next year.   

[crazycolt1]

50 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

right now we can only gauge Banogu vs Sweat/Tillery. We won't know till next year what the other 2nd buys us. this coming year, i'd bet a lot of money that JT and Sweat (if healthy) have significantly better year 1 stats.

 

I'd also say that Sweat is a lot more speed/swarm/nasty than Banogu.

You are not looking at the bigger picture.

Ballard is drafting for the future. Not if Sweat or Tillery are better than Banogu.

Chances are that 2nd round pick next year will be a higher pick than the Colts will have.

Besides, Sweat more than likely was ruled out over his medicals. That is the rumor anyway.

[akcolt]

There is no need to revisit Sweat that’s water under the bridge. We have BB and what will likely be a pick at the top of the 2nd round next year. I personally wouldn’t roll the dice on medical issues the first 2 days and I believe Turay is ready to take make a big jump. 

[NewEra]

They were saying during the draft night that there was character issue with Sweat also. I do t remember exactly cause I didn't feel the need to constantly second guess Ballard. 

[BigQungus]

I still can't make a decision until we actually use the 2020 pick, let alone see Sweat and Banogu play

[ColtsBlueFL]

We don't know ( nor should we really find out) about Sweats condition.  Now the team doctors know.  They know about the potential red flags from the Echo that allegedly signaled a Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy condition.

 

folks can read about it and possible future considerations here-

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/17116-hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy

 

All of the team doctors also know results about any follow up exams, if they want to see them.  They can (and do, it's totally legal) share this information with each other, but not to outside sources.

 

I think I've mentioned before elsewhere.   Some teams will pass, others will say this is manageable.  There are many different stories out there, but I can tell you I don't believe in any way he is completely normal and was misdiagnosed.  With all of the echo cardiograms for combine doctors to read, I feel Sweat's somehow must have looked different enough (we all don't know how) to cause a red flag. Beyond that is just a bunch rumor spreading, IMO.

 

Nick Fairly played 6 years before his heart issues ended his playing days.  I believe Star Lotulelei had his combine cut short when an echo showed 44% (now reported to possibly been caused by a virus) ejection fraction (instead of expected 55-70%).  He had a good pro day, still taken in Round 1 by Panthers. He's still competing in the NFL for the Bills.

 

Last year Maurice Hurst was sent home from the combine with a (undisclosed) heart condition. U. of Michigan doctors knew about it and got him into a condition to be cleared to play 4 years there.  He had a good pro day. He still fell to round 5. He is now with the Raiders playing.

 

Sweat was not sent home from combine (IIRC), but still was flagged.  His team will monitor him just like Lotulelei and Hurst teams do.  But not every team wants to take on that risk in round 1.  Can't blame them.  Others do. 

 

I don't mind our decision. I just have to hope those guys get a decent length playing career for their teams before any effects possibly show up; if they even do.

 

 

[AZColt11]

13 hours ago, BOTT said:

I think it's clear sweat didnt check out medically for most teams....or he wouldn't have fallen to 26.

This is what I've been thinking.  It's not like the Colts were the first team to pass on him.  Most teams were afraid.  Besides, they got an extra 2nd rounder in what most draft experts consider a much stronger overall draft than this one.  I have zero problem with the move.

[EastStreet]

11 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

You are not looking at the bigger picture.

Ballard is drafting for the future. Not if Sweat or Tillery are better than Banogu.

Chances are that 2nd round pick next year will be a higher pick than the Colts will have.

Besides, Sweat more than likely was ruled out over his medicals. That is the rumor anyway.

I'm looking at short and long term. Sweat was a top 5 or top 10 guy. If his medical scared us away (we'll likely never know), I would have taken Tillery. If Sweat ends up healthy (I haven't seen any rumors) than IMO we missed out on a tremendous value at 26. Sweat is the type of player, again if healthy, that you give up several picks to move up and take. He's a guy you build a D around for years. Banogu is not that type of guy.

 

Only the future will tell. Me personally, if Sweat was truly misdiagnosed, he'll out-stat Banogu next year, and for years to come.

[krunk]

Why we passed on Tillery may be the more interesting question?

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Irish YJ said:

I'm looking at short and long term. Sweat was a top 5 or top 10 guy. If his medical scared us away (we'll likely never know), I would have taken Tillery. If Sweat ends up healthy (I haven't seen any rumors) than IMO we missed out on a tremendous value at 26. Sweat is the type of player, again if healthy, that you give up several picks to move up and take. He's a guy you build a D around for years. Banogu is not that type of guy.

 

Only the future will tell. Me personally, if Sweat was truly misdiagnosed, he'll out-stat Banogu next year, and for years to come.

You don't know that Banogu will be and how he will fit in our defense. 

Take into consideration Banogu added with next years extra round 2 pick you don't have a clue how it effects the bigger picture. That is yet to be determined.

There were quite a few GMs who passed on Sweat so your opinion was not shared by those.

There are also some who think Tillery was over rated.

Ballard explained what and why he did what he did. He values different things in a player than you do.

You bring some legitimate concerns no doubt but I have no problem with what Ballard did. And from I read by the talking heads they had no problem either.

 

 

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, krunk said:

Why we passed on Tillery may be the more interesting question?

I think Ballard just valued having that extra pick next season. Good or bad he wants all the possible picks he can get. Especially in round two.

[stitches]

11 minutes ago, krunk said:

Why we passed on Tillery may be the more interesting question?

Yeah... I'd love to hear how we valued Tillery and whether the reported concerns dropped him in our evaluation or if Ballard just didn't like his tape enough. Tillery was my personal highest ranked player at our pick. 

 

With Sweat it's almost certain it has at least partially to do with his health. 

 

 

[EastStreet]

18 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You don't know that Banogu will be and how he will fit in our defense. 

Take into consideration Banogu added with next years extra round 2 pick you don't have a clue how it effects the bigger picture. That is yet to be determined.

There were quite a few GMs who passed on Sweat so your opinion was not shared by those.

There are also some who think Tillery was over rated.

Ballard explained what and why he did what he did. He values different things in a player than you do.

You bring some legitimate concerns no doubt but I have no problem with what Ballard did. And from I read by the talking heads they had no problem either.

I guess you missed where I said "only the future will tell."

 

Yes, lot of GMs passed early. At 26 though the flag or risk/reward equation is equalized. And again, I said if healthy. We'll see how it turns out.

 

Some thought Tillery was over rated, some though he was underrated. Again, only time will tell. 

 

My thoughts are purely my opinion. But as I said, I'd bet on Sweat given what we know about his health currently and not knowing what info the teams had during the draft. And of course GMs are going to support their picks with their narrative. I would not expect anything else. What GMs typically don't do, is come back and explain years later why a guy they passed on might have been better than the guy they took. 

 

Again, time will tell. I'd put my draft out there for fun if I didn't think the pearl clutchers and cult of Ballard wouldn't freak out with all the "how dare you think you can question ballard" kind of crap. People need to lighten up in general as this is an opinion/discussion board.

[krunk]

I think the advantage that you get with Banagou is it allows you to go into every game with more pass rushers than you would normally have.  We usually don't use our Sam Linebacker to do much pass rushing if any.  Now we can bring the normal amount of pass rushers into a game that we had last year.  And you have an additional/extra rusher now in Banogou, but you don't have to list him as a DE on game day because you can mark him down as an OLB.

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

Again, time will tell. I'd put my draft out there for fun if I didn't think the pearl clutchers and cult of Ballard wouldn't freak out with all the "how dare you think you can question ballard" kind of crap. People need to lighten up in general as this is an opinion/discussion board.

With the batting average Ballard has it's not surprising he has fans.

What you are calling crap is fans believing in his choices.

This opinion/discussion board will stay positive on Ballard regardless of those who don't. I don't think anyone expects Ballard to be perfect but he hasn't struck out yet.

Like you said, the future will tell the story.

I think the only difference between you and me is I don't do 'what if's' and you do. You are a stat guy who bases his opinion in that direction. Me? not so much.

I been following drafts since 1973 and in that time what I have learned is you never know how things will go. What I have learned about Ballard is he has a total different approach than most GMs.

[RNGDShobby]

Don't forget we also traded that 46th pick so technically its;
Sweat
OR
Banogu, Tell and a 2020 2nd. 

I'm not sure I buy into the fact that his medical condition was cleared on the day of the draft. I'm sure every team had their own docs look into it and made their own decisions.

[EastStreet]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

With the batting average Ballard has it's not surprising he has fans.

What you are calling crap is fans believing in his choices.

This opinion/discussion board will stay positive on Ballard regardless of those who don't. I don't think anyone expects Ballard to be perfect but he hasn't struck out yet.

Like you said, the future will tell the story.

I think the only difference between you and me is I don't do 'what if's' and you do. You are a stat guy who bases his opinion in that direction. Me? not so much.

I been following drafts since 1973 and in that time what I have learned is you never know how things will go. What I have learned about Ballard is he has a total different approach than most GMs.

I'm a huge Ballard fan. I just don't expect him to be perfect, or godly.. And I think it's perfectly fine to disagree with his choices. And if folks want to disagree, they shouldn't have to put up with all the silliness from some people. It' fine for people to say "I'm good, I trust whatever Ballard does", but I'm not a fan of folks that freak out act like anyone who disagrees is committing a sin, or an *.

[chad72]

We got Banogu, no "sweat".  

[crazycolt1]

9 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

I'm a huge Ballard fan. I just don't expect him to be perfect, or godly.. And I think it's perfectly fine to disagree with his choices. And if folks want to disagree, they shouldn't have to put up with all the silliness from some people. It' fine for people to say "I'm good, I trust whatever Ballard does", but I'm not a fan of folks that freak out act like anyone who disagrees is committing a sin, or an *.

I think you are over reacting and letting this stuff get too personal.

You forget what fandom is.

[EastStreet]

18 minutes ago, RNGDShobby said:

Don't forget we also traded that 46th pick so technically its;
Sweat
OR
Banogu, Tell and a 2020 2nd. 

I'm not sure I buy into the fact that his medical condition was cleared on the day of the draft. I'm sure every team had their own docs look into it and made their own decisions.

Good point on Tell. 

 

I think the timing sucked on the medical news. While I'm sure team doctors reviewed what was out there, it wasn't like they had time to conduct their own tests or dig deep.

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I think you are over reacting and letting this stuff get too personal.

You forget what fandom is.

i don't mind folks using fact and data to counter any opinion if it's thoughtful and objective. 

 

acting like someone is an * for disagreeing with a pick or FA signing, or simply using the "you can't question ballard" narrative is simply lazy. the "ballard has a plan" thing is pretty silly too. of course he has a plan. doesn't mean folks can't disagree with a pick, or even elements of the plan.

 

not taking it personal or forgetting what fandom is, just calling out some of the silly behavior.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Irish YJ said:

i don't mind folks using fact and data to counter any opinion if it's thoughtful and objective. 

 

acting like someone is an * for disagreeing with a pick or FA signing, or simply using the "you can't question ballard" narrative is simply lazy. the "ballard has a plan" thing is pretty silly too. of course he has a plan. doesn't mean folks can't disagree with a pick, or even elements of the plan.

 

not taking it personal or forgetting what fandom is, just calling out some of the silly behavior.

If you are not taking is personal why are you harping on it?  

It's all a part of the forum. Not everyone agrees or thinks like everyone else.

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

If you are not taking is personal why are you harping on it?  

It's all a part of the forum. Not everyone agrees or thinks like everyone else.

you must be taking it personal too since you're continuing to disagree and defend.......

[crazycolt1]

10 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

you must be taking it personal too since you're continuing to disagree and defend.......

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Like I said several times, feel free to ignore my posts. Instead, you often feel the need to comment on my opinions, then continue arguing.

 

Have a nice day. Don't forget to respond so you can feel like you've had the last word.

[crazycolt1]

17 minutes ago, Irish YJ said:

Like I said several times, feel free to ignore my posts. Instead, you often feel the need to comment on my opinions, then continue arguing.

 

Have a nice day. Don't forget to respond so you can feel like you've had the last word.

Nah, I will leave this-

[superrep1967]

22 hours ago, BProland85 said:

So I wanted to revisit the trade down Ballard made with the Redskins. Who here prefers staying put and taking Sweat over getting Banogu and Washington's 2020 2nd?

 

Sweat was considered a top 3 edge rusher in this class, and a lot will depend on if he checks out long term with his heart condition. If he does, I think Ballard may have made a mistake here. You simply don't pass on guys like Sweat if he checks out medically in my opinion. 

 

I hope Banogu surprises me though. He just seems much more raw than Sweat, and doesn't have as good of a pass rush repertoire. 

Yeah, but I heard that Sweat was hard to coach and doesn't like being yelled at and will yell back if true I wouldn't have wanted him either. So it could have been a character issue with Ballard will never know for sure unless it shows through in Washington.