Luck's Shoulder

[SilentHill]

Reading this thread gave me a headache and surely lowered my IQ.

 

I will never understand why people panic over nothing. I think men in black said it best...

Quote

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals.

 

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

7 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Frankly I find it ridiculous that NFL teams have to share ANY health related information with anyone, even 1 hour before the game.  It is all done to please the gambling crowd and with the NFL cozying up to that very industry little by little, I am sure it won't change.  Fantasy Football is the second reason they give out health info, but we all know nearly every team over or under-estimates the health on players every week.  The Colts used to be one of the few teams that really didn't play around with injury reports, but apparently they must think they have a good reason to.  I wish they didn't say a word about who was healthy or injured and just played the games so that teams couldn't game plan against teams with late or otherwise unknown injuries.  Teams are already at a disadvantage when their players are hurt, why help the other team and gamblers? Makes no sense to me.  

Hey, that is a completely fine viewpoint to have. In fact i mostly share it. But the current set of rules in the NFL call for 100% transparency and I like to see rules followed in our world so that's why I don't like the shadiness surrounding the injuries 

[theanarchist]

22 hours ago, SilentHill said:

I don't know why people can't get it, that this is the plan for Luck, his practice participation is probably based off of statistics of the previous game, like pass attempts and QB hits.

Im sure its part of "the plan". The fact that there is a "plan" at all tells me that shoulder is damaged in some way. I'm not trying to stir the pot. Im not saying anything other than I personally feel there is more to the Andrew Luck shoulder story. If there is a need to have him not throw during the week, for any reason then it should be concerning. Because Im quite sure every other starting QB in the league is throwing passes on Wednesday and Thursday. When you start reducing throwing when you are a throwing athlete that is a big indicator something is wrong. I'm not saying its a big thing it could be little and they are just being cautious but something is definitely up and that's just my opinion.

[Larry Horseman]

12 hours ago, threeflight said:

The reason Luck is air mailing the ball is because he is in pain and lacking in strength, he can't DRIVE the ball.  It simply hurts too much and the strength isn't there.  Every time he goes back to throw, he unconsciously lets up just a little on his throws, causing the ball to sail.  

 

 

Not for nothing, Luck has had accuracy issues, particularly with high throws ahead/behind the receiver, since his rookie year. Definitively stating that air mailing the ball is because of his shoulder is ignoring two years of data. 

[SilentHill]

3 hours ago, theanarchist said:

Im sure its part of "the plan". The fact that there is a "plan" at all tells me that shoulder is damaged in some way. I'm not trying to stir the pot. Im not saying anything other than I personally feel there is more to the Andrew Luck shoulder story. If there is a need to have him not throw during the week, for any reason then it should be concerning. Because Im quite sure every other starting QB in the league is throwing passes on Wednesday and Thursday. When you start reducing throwing when you are a throwing athlete that is a big indicator something is wrong. I'm not saying its a big thing it could be little and they are just being cautious but something is definitely up and that's just my opinion.

 

I would agree with you, if we had a conventional front office. I think the reprieve that they got has them trying to think outside the box.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

Iiiits just sore guys. He's totally fine. All part of the the plan 

[RockThatBlue]

On 9/22/2016 at 1:10 PM, SilentHill said:

I don't know why people can't get it, that this is the plan for Luck, his practice participation is probably based off of statistics of the previous game, like pass attempts and QB hits.

This is exactly right.

[RockThatBlue]

On 9/22/2016 at 2:05 PM, snkdy said:

 

I'm not a big fan of Holder, but he seems concerned for whatever that's worth.

I like Holder but what does he mean by lack of transparency? I thought it was well known that the Colts had a plan like this for him for weeks now.

[RockThatBlue]

23 hours ago, Larry Horseman said:

 

 

I don't know what you really expect? The Colts literally posted a story about him missing practice b/c of a sore shoulder: http://www.colts.com/news/article-notebook/Right-Shoulder-Soreness-Keeps-Andrew-Luck-Out-Of-Wednesday’s-Practice/69dc77da-4804-4306-8577-61e5cbf550b1

 

Andrew Luck on why he did not attend Wednesday’s practice:
 

“Sore from the game.

“It was a physical game, like any football game really, so the training staff and coaches decided it was best if I didn’t go out today and just worked in the training room.”

 

How much more transparent, etc. do you want them to be? It is what it is--perhaps there are some lingering issues. Perhaps they are being overly cautious. As long as he plays and plays well, I don't really care. 

Doesn't matter. People will ignore the facts anyway.

[YourNextGM]

He's 27yrs old,  didn't have elite arm strength to begin with,  yep,  we're screwed. 

[Superman]

7 hours ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

the current set of rules in the NFL call for 100% transparency

 

No they don't.

[csmopar]

1 hour ago, YourNextGM said:

He's 27yrs old,  didn't have elite arm strength to begin with,  yep,  we're screwed. 

 

Well I guess you better go become a Browns fan then. 

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, YourNextGM said:

He's 27yrs old,  didn't have elite arm strength to begin with,  yep,  we're screwed. 

 

As a future GM, I hope you realize that "elite arm strength" is one of the more over-rated aspects of QB play.

 

You know who else doesn't have "elite arm strength".....?

 

How about Tom Brady.      How about Peyton Manning.       How about Joe Montana, or Steve Young.

 

How about this week's opponent,  Phillip Rivers?       I could go on and on,  but I think you get the point.

 

Elite arm strength is NOT necessary to be an elite quarterback.      Period.

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

7 hours ago, Larry Horseman said:

 

Not for nothing, Luck has had accuracy issues, particularly with high throws ahead/behind the receiver, since his rookie year. Definitively stating that air mailing the ball is because of his shoulder is ignoring two years of data. 

 

I think you mean FOUR years of data.      After all,  this is year 5 for Luck.

 

[NewColtsFan]

18 hours ago, southwest1 said:

 

I'm no Dr. & I never attended medical school either but that first video on that linked page makes it seem like Luck's shoulder can be popped back in place similar to a dislocated finger. I know I'm oversimplifying it, but that brief You Tube video conveys the impression that Luck will be the Mel Gibson character named Riggs from the "Lethal Weapon" feature film trilogy. 

 

 

All kidding aside, this isn't great news to hear about our starting franchise QB because the more the shoulder moves out of position wouldn't it suggest that this lingering issue could pose a pain thresh hold problem or a lack of timeouts in a crucial 2 minute situation in a must have game in late November for instance to pop his shoulder back in place just so Chewy can throw a TD to Moncrief or Hilton in the end zone?

 

I'm not thrilled over this news at all. Grigs needed to focus on our line yrs earlier. Grrr!  

 

 

Grigs DID focus on the o-line years earlier.     In fact, it was the 2nd year of the Grigson/Pagano/Luck era...

 

2013:     We spent money on Cherilus, Thomas and draft picks on Thornton and Holmes.     Looks like we went 0-4 on those investments.        But we did try to address as soon as we possibly could.

 

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 9/22/2016 at 0:52 PM, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

The fact that he even has to say/clarify "He'll be our starter come Sunday" bugs me to no end. I wish they were just honest about this and fix this man's shoulder.  He really does seem injured to me and our staff has lost my trust when it comes to these things.

 

Flame me for being reactionary but I'm honestly concerned. One bad hit while he's throwing or one Jay Cutleresque pile-up sack and he's toast for the rest or the season/worse off for his career.

 

Obviously this could happen to any qb at any given time but if he's still even a little injured then the risk is heightened 

 

History says you have reason.  Remember Luck's 'Sore Shoulder' {Pagano speak} last year?  Matt Hasselbeck started two inter-division games While Luck nursed that 'sore shoulder' Pagano told us about.

 

But last year stuff was leaked (subluxation etc... yada yada) and not so much about it this time.  Let's chill until more substantive ' stuff ' gets leaked.  Otherwise let's stay on the positive side of things. But I know where you are coming from.

[Larry Horseman]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think you mean FOUR years of data.      After all,  this is year 5 for Luck.

 

 

Meet me in the middle at three years. Injury started year 4. Either way, love me some Luck. 

[theanarchist]

17 hours ago, SilentHill said:

 

I would agree with you, if we had a conventional front office. I think the reprieve that they got has them trying to think outside the box.

I'm sure they are thinking outside the box. But the fact of the matter is that Luck had a serious injury to his throwing shoulder a year ago. That same shoulder is still an issue. If I had to guess the situation with his shoulder is a tenuous one and it's probably a deal where they want to see if the issue can be managed without surgery first. That's the typical route when surgery isnt the obvious choice. My opinion is that the with this lingering into this season now, a year later that eventually surgery is going to happen. Hopefully whatever the actual injury is will be something that surgery can fix and he can return from 100%. This is something I learned when my son was dealing with a shoulder injury,1)  the shoulder is a very complicated joint 2) injuries to that joint are not always obvious on MRI 3) Surgery can repair the damage but in a throwing athlete return to compitition at the same level prior to surgery is not always possible but it is relative to the type of injury that is being repaired. So, I don't wanna say that Luck has surgery in his future and his career is in jeopardy just saying that I think it's very probable this is a lingering issue from last year and the fact that they are limiting his throwing is a pretty good sign that this shoulder issue is not going away and will have to be dealt with in another way besides rehab and activity modification.

[JColts72]

The front office has been covering up his injury since last year about the severity. That line of ours will ruin his career. I hope he does not end up like Bert Jones.

[jbaron04]

I think the colts are hiding something. I remember most good qbs saying they wanted every Rep in practice etc...  So why out a 27 year old on a pitch count no reason at all tbh unless he hurt 

[ColtsUrUs]

Reading a lot of these comments in this thread and I see why I come here twice a week. *shakes head*

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

2 hours ago, jbaron04 said:

I think the colts are hiding something. I remember most good qbs saying they wanted every Rep in practice etc...  So why out a 27 year old on a pitch count no reason at all tbh unless he hurt 

Because it's all part of the plan. For the rest of his career too, according to some damage control experts on this forum. H

[gacoop1]

Why risk a fine of not divulging the real injury. Otherwise 140 mil down the drain.  Luck of the Colts...This team just can't win for losing....Bad coaches, bad GM bad players.What's next Irsay?

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 9/23/2016 at 11:23 AM, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

Hey, that is a completely fine viewpoint to have. In fact i mostly share it. But the current set of rules in the NFL call for 100% transparency and I like to see rules followed in our world so that's why I don't like the shadiness surrounding the injuries 

 

On 9/23/2016 at 3:12 PM, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

Iiiits just sore guys. He's totally fine. All part of the the plan 

 

Just want people to read these two articles, one from last September 30, 2015, and the other from September 23, 2016.  Tell me the difference between the two?  What did Chuck Pagano say in each article? Tell me what happened to Luck on his next two games in 2015? 

 

http://wishtv.com/2015/09/30/pagano-to-speak-ahead-of-jacksonville-game/

 

http://fox59.com/2016/09/23/colts-say-andrew-luck-just-has-a-sore-shoulder-but-list-him-questionable-for-chargers/

 

We were told last year Luck had a 'sore shoulder' by Pagano, and he expects Luck to start vs. The Jags.  Well, Luck not only missed the Jags game, he also missed the Texans game that followed it.  Matt Hasselbeck won us those two games, and Luck came back to lose to the Pats.

 

Tell me why any member here can trust what Chuck and the Colts say about an injury?  They are not required to go beyond naming a general area that is injured enough to affect practice or game participation status of the player. That is all.  They do not have to tell what the nature of the injury is, or the severity.  Just that there is one in a general area. (Shoulder, Knee, Hand, etc...)  Anything ever discovered beyond that is  'leaked' information. Sometimes player will give permission to release more data, but it might also be overheard by outside sources etc and get out there.

 

I do not listen to a word the HC or Colts say about injuries, they are vague, for their own reasons.  Why tell people Luck will be out two weeks with a sprained AC joint (hypothetical situation here, could be something else too) when you only have to say he has a sore shoulder, and you expect him to play in the next game.  (Even though you already know he wont.)

 

EDIT: Want to make note the above is what transpired last year, and not necessarily this year... though it is a possibility, but still hoping not.   ***

 

As far as not mentioning anything at all, that is not allowed by the league.  Trust me, if a player doesn't show up at practice because he is in the training room / tub, and he isn't listed on the injury report, the League will be ringing Irsay up, with some not very good news either.

[SteelCityColt]

To play lawyer of Beelzebub somewhat. Let's assume that there is an issue with his shoulder still, either long term or still recovering from last season.

 

If you have any doubts, any what so ever, about the longevity of Luck you don't sign him up. Use this season as a prove it to show that the recovery is progressing. It might sting the Colts in the long term if he has a lights out season but it would be the sensible approach. 

 

Now as much as people here like to think the FO/Irsay are totally incompetent I strongly believe they wouldn't have signed off on his deal if they weren't confident in Luck's health. They do have access to a lot more information than us remember. 

 

It seems like the issue is more the lack of transparency and honesty regarding the status of his rehabilitation and/or the plans for managing him. I'm afraid that's just how teams roll these days. The injury reports are complete works of fiction in some cases I'm sure, and I'm also sure within a certain degree of tolerance the league turns a blind eye.  

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 9/24/2016 at 2:12 PM, SteelCityColt said:

To play lawyer of Beelzebub somewhat. Let's assume that there is an issue with his shoulder still, either long term or still recovering from last season.

 

If you have any doubts, any what so ever, about the longevity of Luck you don't sign him up. Use this season as a prove it to show that the recovery is progressing. It might sting the Colts in the long term if he has a lights out season but it would be the sensible approach. 

 

Now as much as people here like to think the FO/Irsay are totally incompetent I strongly believe they wouldn't have signed off on his deal if they weren't confident in Luck's health. They do have access to a lot more information than us remember. 

 

It seems like the issue is more the lack of transparency and honesty regarding the status of his rehabilitation and/or the plans for managing him. I'm afraid that's just how teams roll these days. The injury reports are complete works of fiction in some cases I'm sure, and I'm also sure within a certain degree of tolerance the league turns a blind eye.  

 

Seems that way.  But we must remeber, all that a team is required to do is this-

 

***   Injuries must be identified with a reasonable degree of specificity in terms that are meaningful to coaches, other club officials, the media, and the public.  For example, leg injuries must be specified as ankle, knee, thigh or calf.  Arm injuries must be identified as a shoulder, elbow, wrist, hand, or muscle injury.  Listing an injury simply as “leg,” “arm,” “upper body,” or some other vague description is not acceptable.  For quarterbacks, kickers, and punters, the report must designate “left” or “right” if the injury is to the arm/hand of a quarterback or the leg/foot of a kicker or punter.   ***

 

So, injury report can say- 

 

Out

Joe Smith  -  Knee

 

I doesn't have to say Meniscus, Medial collateral ligament, whatever etc... just knee. nothing more needed. Not even whether it is the right knee, or left knee, unless he is a kicker or punter.

 

 

For our QB -

 

Questionable

Andrew Luck

Shoulder, right.    

 

That's it. Nothing else the Colts / Coaches need to address any further.  No identification of whether it is a separation or dislocation { which, BTW, are two totally separate items that are not even closely related }.  No details or degree of severity needs to be disclosed.  If those detail(s) come out, it was leaked or distributed with permission of the player.

 

 

this is all they have to say, and anything beyond can be speculation (even if the medical team is telling something totally different) and not really that accurate.  They don't have to be at that point.  So I never listen to what the team says.  I try find out if any credible details have leaked, or if an orthopod or ATC has seen video and made an estimation based upon experience in sports medicine and treatment.  That is why I knew Luck was out at least 6-8 weeks last year with the kidney laceration, when so many others were hoping Luck would be back in a couple weeks.

 

Bill Belichick doesn't do surgery, and his his medical staff doesn't make play calls.  They stick to their expertise. As it should be.

[ColtsBlueFL]

http://operations.nfl.com/media/2235/06-07-16-2016-injury-report-policy.pdf

 

http://operations.nfl.com/updates/football-ops/2016-nfl-injury-report-policy/

 

---

[CanuckColt]

On 9/22/2016 at 0:27 PM, ColtsFanMikeC said:

Andrew Luck was held out of yesterday's practice due to 'shoulder soreness', though both he and Chud are adamant he'll be our starter come Sunday.

 

I thought Luck hurt his shoulder last year in pre-season and he didn't seem right throwing the ball most of last year.  He looked very sharp week 1, but last week there were a few throws that were high or just off target (including the pick 6 by Talib).  He was on the injury report with a shoulder....

 

Is anyone else concerned about this?

 

To me, there could be a number of reasons for his high throws -- one being the amount of pressure he faces, he might be throwing high in hopes of avoiding tipped/batted down balls and two being arm fatigue/soreness.

 

It sounds like he will start, and I hope I'm overreacting, but to me it seemed like he had shoulder issues last year (and to my knowledge, never had any sort of medical procedures done to correct it).  With >1/2 the year off to rest last year, plus a full off-season, I am a bit worried that he is sitting out of practices with shoulder soreness prior to week 3 of his 5th season.  If he were a 12 year vet or if this was week 14, I would be less worried.

 

 

*I didn't see any other posts about this, which was surprising, so mods, please merge if a thread already exists on this topic.

Yeah, he probably has some permanent damage...it just depends how much...I just hope he doesn't turn into Bert Jones II with a very shortened career.

 

[southwest1]

On September 23, 2016 at 8:05 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Grigs DID focus on the o-line years earlier.     In fact, it was the 2nd year of the Grigson/Pagano/Luck era...

 

2013:     We spent money on Cherilus, Thomas and draft picks on Thornton and Holmes.     Looks like we went 0-4 on those investments.        But we did try to address as soon as we possibly could.

 

And that right there says it all, doesn't it? Nobody cares if all our GM produces is duds on the line now do they? 

 

Placeholders that flame out or never materialize mean absolutely nothing. I will give Grigs props for Ryan Kelly our Center, Henry Anderson, & David Parry all good selections on his part. 

[crazycolt1]

16 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

And that right there says it all, doesn't it? Nobody cares if all our GM produces is duds on the line now do they? 

 

Placeholders that flame out or never materialize mean absolutely nothing. I will give Grigs props for Ryan Kelly our Center, Henry Anderson, & David Parry all good selections on his part. 

So you have joined the ranks of the negativity just completely overlooking the positive?

[southwest1]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

So you have joined the ranks of the negativity too just completely overlooking the positive?

1 less than glowing complement about our GM does not mean that I am throwing out the baby with the bathwater CC1. You will recall that I complemented Grigs on Kelly, Anderson, & Parry correct? 

 

Not exactly demanding that Grigs be tarred & feathered am I now? It's a little hard to make the case that SW1 is Mr. "negativity" after that. Also, there's a difference between crucifying a GM & pointing out that no front office execute gets gold stars for failures that never came to fruition BTW. The NFL isn't Kindergarten; No one gets a participation ribbon for just trying or showing up. 

[NewColtsFan]

55 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

And that right there says it all, doesn't it? Nobody cares if all our GM produces is duds on the line now do they? 

 

Placeholders that flame out or never materialize mean absolutely nothing. I will give Grigs props for Ryan Kelly our Center, Henry Anderson, & David Parry all good selections on his part. 

 

My point when I explain what the Colts did in 2013 is to remind posters here that we DID try to address the problem.

 

Posters repeated ask why hasn't Grigson tried to do more sooner?      What was he waiting for?      I'm simply reminding fans that Grigson invested serious money and draft picks hoping to solve our OL problem in his 2nd year.      We needed to give those moves time to either pan out and work,   or not pan out and get cut.   

 

In the last few years,  he's added Mewhort,  Good, and Kelly,  and Reitz improved the quality of his game.   

 

But we are still not a cohesive unit yet.     Unfortunately,  the OL often takes time to gell and became a solid working unit.       And that's where we are now.....    waiting for the unit to come together.

 

But we will likely take a step back this week.     Good is out with a bad back,  and I'm not sure how he's going to get replaced?        

[King Colt]

Shoulder injuries can be and or lead to anything. A little sore this week can be a life time nagging issue. Sometimes for not only athletes  they never go away completely. Hopefully, this is not the case for #12.

[crazycolt1]

4 hours ago, southwest1 said:

1 less than glowing complement about our GM does not mean that I am throwing out the baby with the bathwater CC1. You will recall that I complemented Grigs on Kelly, Anderson, & Parry correct? 

 

Not exactly demanding that Grigs be tarred & feathered am I now? It's a little hard to make the case that SW1 is Mr. "negativity" after that. Also, there's a difference between crucifying a GM & pointing out that no front office execute gets gold stars for failures that never came to fruition BTW. The NFL isn't Kindergarten; No one gets a participation ribbon for just trying or showing up. 

Just pulling your chain a little.

[JColts72]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

My point when I explain what the Colts did in 2013 is to remind posters here that we DID try to address the problem.

 

Posters repeated ask why hasn't Grigson tried to do more sooner?      What was he waiting for?      I'm simply reminding fans that Grigson invested serious money and draft picks hoping to solve our OL problem in his 2nd year.      We needed to give those moves time to either pan out and work,   or not pan out and get cut.   

 

In the last few years,  he's added Mewhort,  Good, and Kelly,  and Reitz improved the quality of his game.   

 

But we are still not a cohesive unit yet.     Unfortunately,  the OL often takes time to gell and became a solid working unit.       And that's where we are now.....    waiting for the unit to come together.

 

But we will likely take a step back this week.     Good is out with a bad back,  and I'm not sure how he's going to get replaced?        

We have been waiting for yeats of anything  that resembles any type of o line since peyton left. So much for the gelling theory.

[CoachLite]

On 9/22/2016 at 1:46 PM, BullsColtsFan1 said:

I am not overally concerned yet but you have to wonder.  If the Colts lose against the Chargers and are 0-3 maybe 2-4 1-5 after the Houston Game, is it worth risking having him out there the rest of the year?  I will be much more concerned if he misses a game.  You could tell that shoulder issue bothered him VS Buffalo, New York and Tennessee last year imo.

If Luck has a minor shoulder injury, 1) these take a rather long time to completely heal, and 2) this would affect his throwing motion trying to minimize the discomfort from arm extension. This could result in the "crouch" I noticed, too. The decision to play or not should be made by the docs and Andrew based on the probability of greater future damage.  Sometimes it is merely a pain ...

[CoachLite]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

But we will likely take a step back this week.     Good is out with a bad back,  and I'm not sure how he's going to get replaced?        

 

By Good's absence, we will get a feel for how much he contributes to the O-line. It probably doesn't matter who replaces him, but I suspect he will be sorely missed.

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, JColts72 said:

We have been waiting for yeats of anything  that resembles any type of o line since peyton left. So much for the gelling theory.

 

We have new players and a new playing style.....    we've left the mostly man blocking for mostly zone blocking.

 

Regrettably,  that takes time....

 

I know it's maddening...

[snkdy]

 

[John Waylon]

On 9/23/2016 at 3:28 AM, southwest1 said:

Wait, so what's your dilemma here exactly? That people give their opinion with no authority in the field of medicine or that when medically trained professionals respond accordingly nobody wants to believe them?

 

Both valid questions sure, but if we waited for only Ph.D. candidates to reply to NFL injury concerns alone this forum would be very dull & uninspiring place to read & glean useful insights from now wouldn't it John? 

 

Off topic slightly: Barry AKA @Bayone. Care to chime in here as a legally trained physician yourself? I, for one, would appreciate your feedback from a distance if you ever treated patients with a similar condition. Thank you. In your professional opinion, would such an injury limit or hamstring a QB's ability to generate completions & win playoff games down the stretch longterm? Yes or no & why? 

 

My delima is that the vast majority of members around here act like * when they don't agree with something someone else says.

 

There was a time where everyone had opinions and that was cool. We discussed and debated and it was fun.

 

Now we turn to "your opinion is entirely invalid because it is not the same as mine" petty arguments around here because god forbid we all have our own unique take on things. Every disagreement always comes down to the worn out "You're not a coach/doctor/expert! You don't know what you're talking about!" mudslinging. If we don't know what we're talking about if we're not coaches, doctors, or media experts, why are we even here to begin with? At what moment in history did a fan's opinion become invalid because they aren't a paid professional? 

 

It's been that way around here for years now, and you can damn well bet it's caused the decrease in size and activity of this place.