How can we get back to the Oline we used to be...? (Yes i'm talking a little while back)

[camcolts2621]

Colts Super Bowl Offensive Line against Da Bears:

 

LT-Tarik Glenn: 154 Games/154 Starts

LG-Ryan Lilja: 111 Games/104 Starts

C-Jeff Saturday: 211 Games/202 Starts

RG-Jake Scott: 131 Games/128 Starts

RT-Ryan Diem: 158 Games/150 Starts

 

The formula can't be that complicated... But man was this a great Oline.

 

[NewColtsFan]

 

Patience..............

 

Building a great OL typically takes time.....    

 

Dallas is an exception to the rule,  but they had to pay a huge price to do so.

 

Bad year, picked high and took the OT, Smith

Bad year, picked high and took the OG, Martin

Bad year, picked medium, traded back and took the C, Frederick

Signed FA OG, Collins

Drafted mid-round guy to play RT.

 

Do you want to miss the playoffs for a number of years or barely make them and then lose to get into better draft spots?       A lot of things have to first go wrong,  and then go right to get a line like the Cowboys.

 

So, it takes patience....

 

We're not as far from a decent line as it seems.....     we should be decent sometime this season.    When is not exactly clear.....

 

[Chucklez]

Agree with NCF...

Takes time for a line to gel properly and with a rookie C and Good coming in at a new position growing pains are expected.

[LockeDown]

Irsay said that line had pride.  I think this line will have it too as they develop confidence.

[Lef]

Howard Mudd?

[James Ducheteau]

You don't just find Tarik Glenn's growing on trees either.  I've always thought that had he continued to play we could have gotten a couple more super bowl rings. He was a Hall of Fame player who retired to early IMO.

[twfish]

As stated we have some new players and it takes awhile for players to gel and it takes starting the same people to get that. The o-line really came together in the 2014 playoff run which is why I beleive we didn't take a o-line men early in 2015. As soon as they click they will do well but it's gunna take patience 

[OLD FAN MAN]

I have had patience for 5 years. the line needs to be better this season, patience is wearing thin and wasting lucks years

[theanarchist]

5 hours ago, camcolts2621 said:

Colts Super Bowl Offensive Line against Da Bears:

 

LT-Tarik Glenn: 154 Games/154 Starts

LG-Ryan Lilja: 111 Games/104 Starts

C-Jeff Saturday: 211 Games/202 Starts

RG-Jake Scott: 131 Games/128 Starts

RT-Ryan Diem: 158 Games/150 Starts

 

The formula can't be that complicated... But man was this a great Oline.

 

You know, you say its a great offensive line now. At the time the criticism was that it was not a physical line. They couldn't provide a crease in short yardage. I think that "the pancake" probably quieted that talk but I do remember during those days the line was criticized plenty for not being physical enough. Boy, would we love to have these guys back in their prime!

[csmopar]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Patience..............

 

Building a great OL typically takes time.....    

 

Dallas is an exception to the rule,  but they had to pay a huge price to do so.

 

Bad year, picked high and took the OT, Smith

Bad year, picked high and took the OG, Martin

Bad year, picked medium, traded back and took the C, Frederick

Signed FA OG, Collins

Drafted mid-round guy to play RT.

 

Do you want to miss the playoffs for a number of years or barely make them and then lose to get into better draft spots?       A lot of things have to first go wrong,  and then go right to get a line like the Cowboys.

 

So, it takes patience....

 

We're not as far from a decent line as it seems.....     we should be decent sometime this season.    When is not exactly clear.....

 

not to mention, despite how good that line is, Romo still got hurt.... all it takes is one hit

[csmopar]

17 minutes ago, THE FUTURE IS NOW said:

I have had patience for 5 years. the line needs to be better this season, patience is wearing thin and wasting lucks years

Ok. So what moves do you propose we do, right now, immediately that will instantly solve this problem?

[Coffeedrinker]

Well first you have to have someone that knows what traits are important for an olineman to have and then rank rank and weight the traits properly.

 

Then you need a good scouting group can that accurately identify and grade those traits.

 

Then you need to have an owner and GM not afraid to pull the trigger when they find someone that grades highly.

 

Then you need to have a coach that can recognize those that have potential to improve and which ones are at their max.

 

Then you need a position coach that can teach them the right techniques to get the most out of their ability 

 

Then you need an offensive system in place that allows the oline to use the techniques they have been taught to increase the chances of a successful play

 

Then you need an OC that is not too predictable in his play calling so the defense is not able to compensate for the play before the ball is even snapped.

 

Then you need players to be able to use their traits, take what they have learned and apply it to the game and new situations as they arise in the game.

 

Then you need to let them develop that for a couple of years.

 

For the Colts:  I'm not convinced they have someone that can identify and the necessary traits.

 

Since they now use the scouting company used by most NFL teams, I'm not convinced they have the scouts that can properly identidy and grade those traits.

 

The owner and GM are not afraid to pull the trigger.

 

The coach we'll see.

 

Offensive game plan - we'll see

 

OC-we'll see

 

[richard pallo]

16 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Well first you have to have someone that knows what traits are important for an olineman to have and then rank rank and weight the traits properly.

 

Then you need a good scouting group can that accurately identify and grade those traits.

 

Then you need to have an owner and GM not afraid to pull the trigger when they find someone that grades highly.

 

Then you need to have a coach that can recognize those that have potential to improve and which ones are at their max.

 

Then you need a position coach that can teach them the right techniques to get the most out of their ability 

 

Then you need an offensive system in place that allows the oline to use the techniques they have been taught to increase the chances of a successful play

 

Then you need an OC that is not too predictable in his play calling so the defense is not able to compensate for the play before the ball is even snapped.

 

Then you need players to be able to use their traits, take what they have learned and apply it to the game and new situations as they arise in the game.

 

Then you need to let them develop that for a couple of years.

 

For the Colts:  I'm not convinced they have someone that can identify and the necessary traits.

 

Since they now use the scouting company used by most NFL teams, I'm not convinced they have the scouts that can properly identidy and grade those traits.

 

The owner and GM are not afraid to pull the trigger.

 

The coach we'll see.

 

Offensive game plan - we'll see

 

OC-we'll see

 

We have all of the above requirements now.  And I don't think it's going to take two more years to develop them.  I think this is the turnaround year.

[csmopar]

4 hours ago, Lef said:

Howard Mudd?

its funny you mention him.  He was just on the Dakich show last week, talking about our OL, he acutally said he thinks we have the right pieces and that now it was time to get those pieces all on the same page during the games.  Said from his viewpoint, it looks like its a communication issue more than personnel.  And that it will take time to solidify. 

[Coffeedrinker]

5 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

We have all of the above requirements now.  And I don't think it's going to take two more years to develop them.  I think this is the turnaround year.

It's not two years to develop them but they need to work together for at least two years before they really start to develop continuity.  The oline is one of those things where the whole can be greater than the sum of it's parts.  But that doesn't happen over the course of 1 year playing together.

[jbaron04]

I think on paper we have 3 of the 5 spots.  Now rg and rt someone has to step up and separate them selves. we have a lot of young guys in the mix,  so in a yr or two we will know more 

[theanarchist]

50 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

It's not two years to develop them but they need to work together for at least two years before they really start to develop continuity.  The oline is one of those things where the whole can be greater than the sum of it's parts.  But that doesn't happen over the course of 1 year playing together.

I agree it takes time. Unfortunately the OL has been decimated by injuries and as some point out, poor talent. I think we have upgraded that talent but it seems like every week someone is injured. I could go on and on about Grigson's failures. It time this OL showed some improvement. Im willing to give it some time but by mid season I would hope that this line shows some improvement, trending toward being a greatly improvedr unit eventually.

[Coffeedrinker]

10 minutes ago, theanarchist said:

I agree it takes time. Unfortunately the OL has been decimated by injuries and as some point out, poor talent. I think we have upgraded that talent but it seems like every week someone is injured. I could go on and on about Grigson's failures. It time this OL showed some improvement. Im willing to give it some time but by mid season I would hope that this line shows some improvement, trending toward being a greatly improvedr unit eventually.

No disagreement.

 

You say you're willing to give them time... what other choice do you have?

[a06cc]

I just hope Anthony Castonzo steps it up. I would go further, but there is no point. 

[Superman]

6 hours ago, Lef said:

Howard Mudd?

 

I don't want Mudd back, but I agree that the OL coaching needs to improve. Hopefully Philbin is the guy. He reportedly likes being a position coach again, and maybe that's where he needs to be, rather than running the whole operation. If his efforts pay off, I think the OL is well on the way. 

 

Probably needs more young talent over the next draft or two, but let's say Haeg and Clark work out well, we might have a solid starting five that can grow together. 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, csmopar said:

its funny you mention him.  He was just on the Dakich show last week, talking about our OL, he acutally said he thinks we have the right pieces and that now it was time to get those pieces all on the same page during the games.  Said from his viewpoint, it looks like its a communication issue more than personnel.  And that it will take time to solidify. 

 

There was one play where Luck got sacked on Saturday, where the entire play was disjointed. Hilton and Dorsett were running a combo route on the right side that didn't get run properly, which means no one got open. But the blocking scheme was entirely unnecessary. The LG pulled to the right side to protect, and the back slid to the left side to pick up. It was overly complicated and just a poorly run (and probably poorly designed) play. 

 

Preseason is a good time to get that stuff figured out, and they'll probably scrap that play combination. But sometimes it's not about the Jimmys and Joes, it's the X's and O's. I think the Colts have had issues with both, but I assume both will get better quickly.

[theanarchist]

1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

No disagreement.

 

You say you're willing to give them time... what other choice do you have?

The only other choice i have is to start complaining now lol. Which I did plenty of  last year but I like Philbin and hope he can make a difference.

[GoColts8818]

we give the four guys Grigson just drafted more than three pre-season games to develop.

[OLD FAN MAN]

5 hours ago, csmopar said:

Ok. So what moves do you propose we do, right now, immediately that will instantly solve this problem?

after 5 years of poor draft picks and poor free agent mistakes and overpaying below average players,things cant be fixed instantly just two weeks before the season starts. all we can do at this point is hope luck does not get hurt and chud can figure out how to move the ball with a bad o-line

[COLTS449]

6 hours ago, csmopar said:

Ok. So what moves do you propose we do, right now, immediately that will instantly solve this problem?

 

We should have "instantly" fixed the O-Line after Lucks first year when we had loads of cap space. Instead we signed a bunch of bums and just hoped we'd hit big with a handful of them. That was a ridiculous, even incompetent strategy. We signed mid level free agents like Donald Thomas and an injury prone RT who'd really only had 1 good year when we should have signed the best offensive linemen on the market.  What kind of GM would sign Donald Thomas, Greg Toler, Ricky Jean Francois and Erik Walden when we could have gotten much better players at a similar price. I looked back at the 2013 free agent list and instead of Cherilus, Thomas, Francois, Franklin, Walden, Toler and Landry. We could have gotten one of Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, or DRC for as cheap or cheaper than Toler. Glover Quinn or Charles Woodson instead of Landry. Phil Loadholt or King Dunlap instead of Cherilus, Matt Slauson instead of Thomas, Elvis Dumervil or Cliff Avril instead of Walden, Chris Canty instead of RJF, and Knighten instead of Franklin. Plus Karlos Dansby or Daryl Smith!!! And all of that would have cost much less than the bums we signed.

 

My point is you can "instantly" a position in one offseason. You just gotta dish out the dough and get the right players. And yes there's an Andy Levitre or 2 out of every Matt Slauson or DRC, but you gotta take your risk and make the right pickups. And a similar offseason as I listed above would have put us way ahead of where we are right now. Heck we may have even made it to, or won a SB by now.

 

The offensive line is well on its way to FINALLY being fixed. But it could have / should have been fixed 4 years ago. But as of this minute there's not really anymore we can do until the offseason. Unless we make a trade or sign Geoff Schwartz or something.

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, COLTS449 said:

 

We should have "instantly" fixed the O-Line after Lucks first year when we had loads of cap space. Instead we signed a bunch of bums and just hoped we'd hit big with a handful of them. That was a ridiculous, even incompetent strategy. We signed mid level free agents like Donald Thomas and an injury prone RT who'd really only had 1 good year when we should have signed the best offensive linemen on the market.  What kind of GM would sign Donald Thomas, Greg Toler, Ricky Jean Francois and Erik Walden when we could have gotten much better players at a similar price. I looked back at the 2013 free agent list and instead of Cherilus, Thomas, Francois, Franklin, Walden, Toler and Landry. We could have gotten one of Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, or DRC for as cheap or cheaper than Toler. Glover Quinn or Charles Woodson instead of Landry. Phil Loadholt or King Dunlap instead of Cherilus, Matt Slauson instead of Thomas, Elvis Dumervil or Cliff Avril instead of Walden, Chris Canty instead of RJF, and Knighten instead of Franklin. Plus Karlos Dansby or Daryl Smith!!! And all of that would have cost much less than the bums we signed.

 

My point is you can "instantly" a position in one offseason. You just gotta dish out the dough and get the right players. And yes there's an Andy Levitre or 2 out of every Matt Slauson or DRC, but you gotta take your risk and make the right pickups. And a similar offseason as I listed above would have put us way ahead of where we are right now. Heck we may have even made it to, or won a SB by now.

 

The offensive line is well on its way to FINALLY being fixed. But it could have / should have been fixed 4 years ago. But as of this minute there's not really anymore we can do until the offseason. Unless we make a trade or sign Geoff Schwartz or something.

Ok... but not what I asked. Can't change the past. 

[COLTS449]

Just now, csmopar said:

Ok... but not what I asked. Can't change the past. 

 

Yeah I know what you meant. I was just saying you can "instantly" fix something. Just not 2 weeks before the season starts LOL.

[csmopar]

46 minutes ago, THE FUTURE IS NOW said:

after 5 years of poor draft picks and poor free agent mistakes and overpaying below average players,things cant be fixed instantly just two weeks before the season starts. all we can do at this point is hope luck does not get hurt and chud can figure out how to move the ball with a bad o-line

So you have no suggestions ? Thought as much. But it is funny you mention it can't be fixed in 2 weeks yet after just 3 weeks and 3 preseason games, youre up in a tizzy because the line had one very bad game.....hypocritical right there now ain't it?

[csmopar]

Just now, COLTS449 said:

 

Yeah I know what you meant. I was just saying you can "instantly" fix something. Just not 2 weeks before the season starts LOL.

I get that, my question was in response to the OP. Here's the thing, and even Howard Mudd pointed this out, that same line the OP mentioned took a while, per Mudd himself,  to gel.  He said he thought the current OL would be vastly improved once they get some meanfull time in game that's schemed to gel. 

[krunk]

37 minutes ago, COLTS449 said:

 

We should have "instantly" fixed the O-Line after Lucks first year when we had loads of cap space. Instead we signed a bunch of bums and just hoped we'd hit big with a handful of them. That was a ridiculous, even incompetent strategy. We signed mid level free agents like Donald Thomas and an injury prone RT who'd really only had 1 good year when we should have signed the best offensive linemen on the market.  What kind of GM would sign Donald Thomas, Greg Toler, Ricky Jean Francois and Erik Walden when we could have gotten much better players at a similar price. I looked back at the 2013 free agent list and instead of Cherilus, Thomas, Francois, Franklin, Walden, Toler and Landry. We could have gotten one of Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, or DRC for as cheap or cheaper than Toler. Glover Quinn or Charles Woodson instead of Landry. Phil Loadholt or King Dunlap instead of Cherilus, Matt Slauson instead of Thomas, Elvis Dumervil or Cliff Avril instead of Walden, Chris Canty instead of RJF, and Knighten instead of Franklin. Plus Karlos Dansby or Daryl Smith!!! And all of that would have cost much less than the bums we signed.

 

My point is you can "instantly" a position in one offseason. You just gotta dish out the dough and get the right players. And yes there's an Andy Levitre or 2 out of every Matt Slauson or DRC, but you gotta take your risk and make the right pickups. And a similar offseason as I listed above would have put us way ahead of where we are right now. Heck we may have even made it to, or won a SB by now.

 

The offensive line is well on its way to FINALLY being fixed. But it could have / should have been fixed 4 years ago. But as of this minute there's not really anymore we can do until the offseason. Unless we make a trade or sign Geoff Schwartz or something.

I think we'd be quite POed right now if we'd "have dished out the dough" to your boy Junior Galette like you wanted us to.  We'd be pretty mad about Levitre too as he got ran up out of Tennessee.  Donald Thomas should have been a good guard, nobody knew he'd get injured like that.  With Talib if my memory serves me right  we already had Toler, Butler, and Davis playing well together that year in 2013.  In some ways you can kind of see why he didn't make a move on Talib.   He wasn't the only GM who didn't.  Dumerville wasn't really even available like that in 2013.  He was supposed to resign with the Broncos but some kind of last minute snafu by the Broncos opened things up and allowed them(Dumerville and his agent) to shop Dumervilles services to the Ravens.  Robert Mathis had 19.5 sacks that year in 2013 also. A lot of Ricky Jean Francois stats from 2013 till the present look very similar to Cris Canty.  Better in some areas such as sacks.  Not sure what even happened with the Cliff Avril thing but you won't just instantly sign everybody just by waiving money in their face.  There's other people waving money too........

[BOTT]

Get better players duh

[a06cc]

It's about system fit when signing free agents. But I've never been of the mind set to sign FA's. Colts have always been "build through the draft" So now this season we have done such except for emergency cases. You have to develop young players to sustain longevity of a franchise. 

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, a06cc said:

It's about system fit when signing free agents. But I've never been of the mind set to sign FA's. Colts have always been "build through the draft" So now this season we have done such except for emergency cases. You have to develop young players to sustain longevity of a franchise. 

Signing free agents doesn't prohibit a team from developing drafted players.

[cmgww]

I think part of it is what is happening all around the NFL. There just isn't the same NFL-caliber talent coming out of college, at least not in their early years. With colleges running spread offenses that are very far from NFL offenses, these guys take a while to develop. Look at Ryan Kelley for example. He is one of the rare guys that came from a true pro-style offense. Alabama lineman are maulers, not speedy 285 lb guys that can't hold blocks for longer than a second. Polian has said it himself, there is a lack of talent coming from college. 

We have to keep scouring for guys like Kelly, and with time they will develop. 

I think we are close with this line, if they can stay healthy and gel. 

[AZColt11]

Draft well

[BCoop]

I think (and I could certainly be wrong) we actually have most of the pieces to have a top 10 line moving forward. I like Mewhort at LG, Kelly at C, and a combination of Good/Castonzo at RG/RT. That may be unpopular based on everything we've heard from the front office and coaching staff, but I think AC is a hell of a RT with Good filling in next to him. My ideal situation would be for us to find another option at LT moving forward. AC isn't bad, but I think if you have the luxury of moving him to the right side, you have a hell of a line.

 

I wasn't around for this, but it's exactly why I was a huge proponent for making a run at La'el Collins during the draft process. He would have been the perfect prospect to move AC to the right side with him taking over LT.

[Jules]

17 hours ago, camcolts2621 said:

Colts Super Bowl Offensive Line against Da Bears:

 

LT-Tarik Glenn: 154 Games/154 Starts

LG-Ryan Lilja: 111 Games/104 Starts

C-Jeff Saturday: 211 Games/202 Starts

RG-Jake Scott: 131 Games/128 Starts

RT-Ryan Diem: 158 Games/150 Starts

 

The formula can't be that complicated... But man was this a great Oline.

 

 

That line looks like football pornography now looking back.

 

I think my biggest complaint at the time used to be Ryan Diem sometimes got beaten or had some stupid false start etc.

 

 

But, man oh man.......Jeff Saturday was one of the most amazing o lineman mentally I ever seen. And Glenn was just A BEAST. I mean seriously, that dude was a monster.  

 

The guards were pretty good too.

 

We even had some good big holes to run through at times.......

 

And Peyton and Jeff were two brains at times together reading D's.

 

 

Oh.........I better stop.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, Jules said:

 

That line looks like football pornography now looking back.

 

I think my biggest complaint at the time used to be Ryan Diem sometimes got beaten or had some stupid false start etc.

 

 

But, man oh man.......Jeff Saturday was one of the most amazing o lineman mentally I ever seen. And Glenn was just A BEAST. I mean seriously, that dude was a monster.  

 

The guards were pretty good too.

 

We even had some good big holes to run through at times.......

 

And Peyton and Jeff were two brains at times together reading D's.

 

 

Oh.........I better stop.

Our Line even then was just OK. I would say maybe even Good but far from Great. One thing it did have was a Very Good Center that helped Peyton out a lot and it had Chemistry playing together for years which is huge. Peyton was a lot like Brady is, he got rid of the ball quickly so it made our Line look much better than it was. Glenn used to have a bunch of False Starts as well.

[smittywerb]

Patience, money, luck, and high picks.

[Yoshinator]

22 hours ago, csmopar said:

Ok. So what moves do you propose we do, right now, immediately that will instantly solve this problem?

The only thing I can think of, which would be unpopular, is offer a 1st round pick for someone like Joel Botonio to the Browns. They probably wouldn't do it, but it's worth a shot. He'd improve our line ten-fold, and when Mewhort came back, it could be the difference between an average O-Line and an Elite O-Line.