Donald Thomas Goes Down Today

[NagelHausForge]

"The strength and conditioning coach turned me into a Newt!"

 

"A Newt?!?"

 

"I got bettah!"

[lollygagger8]

I can't get on twitter at work, but daaaang: 

 

Ian Rappaport: 

 

The Colts signed OL Donald Thomas to a 4-year, $14M contract last year. by the end of 2014, he'll have made $7M of it & played 2 games. 

 

 

[USAFHoosier]

Well he's done for the season. Would love to see Mewhort take control of LG but we will see how this battle pans out

[TKnight24]

I can't get on twitter at work, but daaaang:

Ian Rappaport:

The Colts signed OL Donald Thomas to a 4-year, $14M contract last year. by the end of 2014, he'll have made $7M of it & played 2 games.

15 mins a quarter, each game roughly an 1hr to a hour & a half

3hrs tops made $7M, crazy. But injuries happen. Mostly to the Colt's but yeah

[Adonai]

pilates, builds core strength and long flexible muscles that don't tear as easily as short bulked up muscles

 

Actually pilates only really serves NFL players to remain limber. The best way to accomplish what you're ascribing to pilates is to make sure the athletes are not focusing in on one, two or three specific types of weightlifting. To keep their workouts varied and wide ranging -hitting all muscle groups- & both high weight/low reps and low weight/high reps - and to INSURE that the athletes are using ALL of their range of motion during their lifts.

[Adonai]

examples bob sanders and landry, bulked up short muscles. hurt year after year, with soft tissue damage, look at injury free players as a rule no bulked up muscles, no soft tissue injurys,

 

That doesn't have anything to do with Pilates.

[Adonai]

Another wasted year by the Colts. Cursed franchise, never ever going to catch a break.

 

Wait, what?! Hahaha

[Adonai]

through multiple staffs? No, it's bad luck

 

 

Agreed, trainers aren't at fault.

 

You two really cannot make those assertions without having any insight into exactly how the Colts workout.

 

I'm not saying it is the training staff's fault. However, nobody can credibly assert that it isn't unless they know for sure how this franchise trains their team in the weightroom.

 

Do either of you know?

 

If not, then a little humility is in order. The training staff may have no responsibility for our injuries, but until that can be absolutely ruled out, it must be a legitimate consideration.

[Adonai]

Anyone find it strange that the 2 guys that got hurt last year, got hurt again this year, with the EXACT same injury? 

 

One of three are responsible or any combination thereof: Medical staff, Training staff, Coaches/Management.

 

Notice "bad luck" wasn't one of the options.

[Smurphy1]

Being in the bottom 25% of the league 8 straight years is not just bad luck. There has to be some other factor at play here and the Colts really need to figure out what it is. 8 straight years is too unlikely to be random bad luck.

Just how unlikely? If we assume "bad luck" to be completely random and that any team has an equal chance of ending up each 25% bracket the odds of being in the bottom 8 times in a row is ~65000 to 1.

[Adonai]

Being in the bottom 25% of the league 8 straight years is not just bad luck. There has to be some other factor at play here and the Colts really need to figure out what it is. 8 straight years is too unlikely to be random bad luck.

 

I tend to agree. It may be wise to review our processes.

 

And since it spans multiple coaching staffs/GMs, I'd lean towards it being something systemic. I wonder if both the training and medical staffs have remained the same throughout.

 

Eitherway, top to bottom review, isolate the constants in both medical & training staff personnel and then investigate the processes in place.

 

If there are no constants regarding personnel then look at ethos/doctrine.

 

If there are no ethos/doctrine overlaps then "Houston, we have a problem!"

[Smurphy1]

I tend to agree. It may be wise to review our processes.

 

And since it spans multiple coaching staffs/GMs, I'd lean towards it being something systemic. I wonder if both the training and medical staffs have remained the same throughout.

 

Eitherway, top to bottom review, isolate the constants in both medical & training staff personnel and then investigate the processes in place.

 

If there are no constants regarding personnel then look at ethos/doctrine.

 

If there are no ethos/doctrine overlaps then "Houston, we have a problem!"

There could be somethings that stuck around after a coaching/regime change. It might also help to find what teams are consistently at the top and compare what they do.

[Superman]

I tend to agree. It may be wise to review our processes.

 

And since it spans multiple coaching staffs/GMs, I'd lean towards it being something systemic. I wonder if both the training and medical staffs have remained the same throughout.

 

Eitherway, top to bottom review, isolate the constants in both medical & training staff personnel and then investigate the processes in place.

 

If there are no constants regarding personnel then look at ethos/doctrine.

 

If there are no ethos/doctrine overlaps then "Houston, we have a problem!"

 

According to reports, the staff HAS reviewed the processes, and has made significant changes with regard to rest, recovery, intensity, etc. I haven't seen details, but I hope to. Even still, to this point, the only players that have suffered serious injuries are players who were seriously injured in the past. Fili Moala (who was IR'd last year and in 2012), Vick Ballard, Donald Thomas... all three have history of injury. Ballard is really the only one to suffer a new injury, and no one so far has said whether the two are related.

 

Also, there's a new strength and conditioning coach, as of 2012, who installed a new program. Evidently, that program has been adjusted as of this offseason, though again, I'm not sure how much that has to do with the offseason training, weight-lifting, etc. 

 

All this suggests that the team doesn't have their head in the sand. There are definitely different ways of thinking and different ways of doing things. The team is making adjustments, and hopefully embracing some of the more progressive approaches to training, practice, etc. That's on display with the way they're handling Richardson, Landry and Davis, and the lighter workload for everyone in camp so far.

 

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2014/07/30/colts-analysis-led-new-approach-injuries/13383285/

[Adonai]

 - the only players that have suffered serious injuries are players who were seriously injured in the past -

 

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2014/07/30/colts-analysis-led-new-approach-injuries/13383285/

 

Then we have already narrowed down some variables. And this would seem to indicate that any further investigating needs to look at the team Doctors, their skill sets, and approach to rehabilitation. 

[BOTT]

Multiple/new training staffs doesn't mean they are using the most progressive training methods rather than the same old "proven" football training methods. I am not saying luck does not play a factor and I think DT was a risk from the get go, but consistently being a team that is among the teams that lead the league in injuries makes me at least wonder. At a certain point "bad luck" is no longer a legitimate explanation.

Toler, Landry, Bradshaw and Thomas had injury histories when Grigson signed them....that might explain some of it.

* just noticed this has already been pointed out

[Superman]

Then we have already narrowed down some variables. And this would seem to indicate that any further investigating needs to look at the team Doctors, their skill sets, and approach to rehabilitation. 

 

I agree that some variables have been narrowed down, but I don't reach the same conclusion you reach. Reason being that this is sports, and sometimes guys are going to get injured.

 

I don't think you can blame anyone for Ballard's Achilles. Structurally, it's unrelated to the knee injury. Perhaps it was stressed through rehab, with Ballard favoring the knee and causing some unnoticed damage, but that's hard to determine, even for doctors. There are conflicting professional viewpoints on that concept. And it might be as simple as someone stepped on Ballard's foot at some point, leading to the injury, in which case, the doctors had nothing to do with it. It's just really difficult to identify why non-contact injuries happen, and pretty much impossible to prevent them. Especially with the unnatural stresses that high level athletes place on their ligaments and tendons.

 

And example of this is in baseball, with pitchers. Progressive understandings suggest that pitchers who throw above a certain number of pitches within a certain period of time are at exponentially increased risk of severe injury to the wrist, elbow and shoulder. This is why some teams scrupulously manage pitch counts, warmup pitches, bullpen sessions, etc., so that they know exactly how many pitches their guy is throwing per day, week, month, etc. Good science, good application (as far as we know). But guys still suffer catastrophic injuries and need major surgery. Because pitching a baseball is unnatural. The arm isn't mean to contort that way at such high velocity. Injuries are going to happen, no matter how diligent the staff is.

 

Also, with Donald Thomas, if there was a problem with his surgery, his recovery, with scar tissue, atrophy, etc., it would like have been discovered on any of the several MRIs and examinations he's presumably had over the offseason. The fact that he was cleared for practice suggests that there was no indication that he hadn't recovered fully, or else he would have been held out. Especially in light of the team's highly cautious approach this offseason. Otherwise, we are suggesting that the team doctors are incapable of performing even a physical examination of a surgically repaired quad, in which case, we have big problems. (And think of the implications that would have for Reggie Wayne. Yikes.)

 

I just think there's good discussion about the topic, then there's sensationalism. We ought to be able to discuss this injury deal without leaping to conclusions and saying things like "whoever's job it is to prevent injuries should be fired," as if it's possible to prevent injuries to football players. JMO

[Smurphy1]

Toler, Landry, Bradshaw and Thomas had injury histories when Grigson signed them....that might explain some of it.

* just noticed this has already been pointed out

Every team signs players with injury histories. Not every team ends up at the bottom of games lost due to injury.

[Adonai]

I agree that some variables have been narrowed down, but I don't reach the same conclusion you reach.- I just think there's good discussion about the topic, then there's sensationalism. We ought to be able to discuss this injury deal without leaping to conclusions and saying things like "whoever's job it is to prevent injuries should be fired," as if it's possible to prevent injuries to football players. JMO

 

Most rarely do. That's the pros of being a highly intelligent individual.

 

And unfortunately your JMO is a somewhat presumptuous if not uninformed one.

 

Injuries can be prevented through proper medical practices. Not all injuries mind you, but prevention is a major pillar of medicine. And physical injury prevention takes place a million times every day. That is partly what retro and differential diagnosis is used for.

 

Nevertheless, the notion that medical staffs and trainers are not, cannot or should not be fired for injuries is nonsensical.

 

The only issue is whether or not the injuries were preventable. And if so, who could've/should've prevented them.

 

That isn't sensationalism. That is responsibility.

[Superman]

Most rarely do. That's the pros of being a highly intelligent individual.

 

And unfortunately your JMO is a somewhat presumptuous if not uninformed one.

 

Injuries can be prevented through proper medical practices. Not all injuries mind you, but prevention is a major pillar of medicine. And physical injury prevention takes place a million times every day. That is partly what retro and differential diagnosis is used for.

 

Nevertheless, the notion that medical staffs and trainers are not, cannot or should not be fired for injuries is nonsensical.

 

The only issue is whether or not the injuries were preventable. And if so, who could've/should've prevented them.

 

That isn't sensationalism. That is responsibility.

 

Give me a minute, I want to make sure I let every ounce of condescension soak in...

 

To the bolded, you are not saying the same thing the post I quoted was saying. Yes, it's the same words, but you're qualifying the statement. In the context of the original post, and given the circumstances, the statement was suggesting that all injuries can be prevented. Not only that, but whoever's job that is wasn't doing it, and they should be fired. Perhaps that's an extreme interpretation, but that's the way it came across, and that's what I was responding to.

 

Now that we're having an actual discussion about injury prevention, the context has changed. Yes, medical science can and is used to prevent injury. That's the concept behind taping and wearing braces. And when you can identify fault, then those responsible can and should be held accountable (that doesn't always mean they need to be fired, by the way). 

 

However, in this case, since we're talking about a specific set of circumstances, it is sensationalism to suggest that anyone should be fired because Donald Thomas and Vick Ballard are hurt, again. Reason being that all injuries cannot be prevented, and in cases where players are already facing long odds of full recovery, it's over the top to conclude that it's anyone's fault that they got hurt again. I illustrated why in the previous post. The bottom line is that injuries happen, no matter how good your training staff is. And the players at the greatest risk of injury are those who have recently dealt with injury. So jumping to the conclusion that someone needs to be fired is doubly fallacious. 

 

I added the JMO because I don't mean to be dogmatic about this. Maybe the training staff should be fired. Let's see how the season goes. But so far, there are only two or three significant injuries, which is right on par with the rest of the league, and the two most noteworthy injuries are to guys who were recently injured. (The Eagles had the fewest injuries last year, and at this point in camp, they had suffered just as many injuries as the Colts have now.) Maybe the adjustments that have been made will pay off over the course of the season. Maybe they won't. But Colts fans are so tortured by injuries that, at the first hint of trouble, the answer is to place blame and call for heads to roll. Just wait and see what happens. The injury situation is obviously on the minds of the decision makers.

[jvan1973]

You two really cannot make those assertions without having any insight into exactly how the Colts workout.

I'm not saying it is the training staff's fault. However, nobody can credibly assert that it isn't unless they know for sure how this franchise trains their team in the weightroom.

Do either of you know?

If not, then a little humility is in order. The training staff may have no responsibility for our injuries, but until that can be absolutely ruled out, it must be a legitimate consideration.

How the team works out is the job of the strength and conditioning staff. The training staff helps guys with rehabing injuries.

[austriancolt]

If another Offensive Lineman goes down we are (again) in big trouble. I know they drafted Mewhort and signed Louis but In my opinion not enough to improve our weakest point last year. 

[JasonABrown]

Maybe we oughta hire this guy for strength and conditioning coach.

 

 

I doubt it would work out too well.  I hear he never leaves the house.  

[Andy]

Just can't catch a break. Hopefully Thornton can step up and do the job now.

[Adonai]

Give me a minute, I want to make sure I let every ounce of condescension soak in...

 

Well, if you want to accuse me of it, I might as well do it. So by all means take a minute.

 

 

In the context of the original post, and given the circumstances, the statement was suggesting that all injuries can be prevented.

 

I'm not accountable for others. So perhaps the error was in bringing their remarks into a response you made to me.

 

 

However, in this case, since we're talking about a specific set of circumstances, it is sensationalism to suggest that anyone should be fired because Donald Thomas and Vick Ballard are hurt, again.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Unless you have some insight into what the Colts medical and/or training staff did or did not do regarding both Ballard and Thomas, you're not in the position to make that assertion with any credibility. Therefore it is simply an opinion. No different than the assertion you desire to rebut.

 

 

Reason being that all injuries cannot be prevented

 

That does not mean that Ballard's or Thomas' couldn't.

 

 

it's over the top to conclude that it's anyone's fault that they got hurt again.

 

That was someone else's assertion.

 

 

The bottom line is that injuries happen, no matter how good your training staff is. And the players at the greatest risk of injury are those who have recently dealt with injury.

 

These are default realities. Nevertheless, they do not rule out error(s) on the part of the medical, training or coaching staffs. And that is the extent of my remarks.

 

 

But Colts fans are so tortured by injuries that, at the first hint of trouble, the answer is to place blame and call for heads to roll.

 

Well, that's what fans do. Nevertheless, with the exception of commenting about a possible/specific Reggie Wayne injury, I have made no such calls.

[Superman]

I'm not accountable for others. So perhaps the error was in bringing their remarks into a response you made to me.

 

Begging your pardon, but you took exception with my response to someone else. I did not bring their remarks in.

 

As for the rest, fair enough. We disagree.

[BOTT]

Every team signs players with injury histories. Not every team ends up at the bottom of games lost due to injury.

That's why I said it might explain some of it. I know Will Carroll has been told by trainers around the league that LOS has the worst turf in the league and feels like that contributes to some of the injuries.

[BOTT]

If another Offensive Lineman goes down we are (again) in big trouble. I know they drafted Mewhort and signed Louis but In my opinion not enough to improve our weakest point last year.

Just having McGlynn and Satele gone is an improvement

[Cleburne]

Hate to hear this, terrible news for sure.

[ColtsHoosiersBB]

Couldn't it have something to do with the organization gambling on players with significant injury histories? We should know the risk when signing guys like Thomas, Toler, Bradshaw, Nicks, Landry etc...

 

Btw, I didn't mean this to be a shot at Grigs in anyway. It doesn't bother me if he wants to take a gamble on guys like them, as long as we have quality depth behind them in the event that an injury does occur (Which I believe we do). Losing Thomas definitely hurts, but it's not a huge surprise to me, and I don't think it is a huge surprise to our staff.

 

My point is that when you have a lot of guys on your roster with long injury histories you pretty much have to expect some of them to go down (and plan for it accordingly).

Good post.

[coltsfanatic24]

Like Ballard, not surprised with Thomas injury. Good player but had injury concerns before signing him. I think we would be better off cutting him, we would save money and he's not worth the risk long term.

[jvan1973]

Like Ballard, not surprised with Thomas injury. Good player but had injury concerns before signing him. I think we would be better off cutting him, we would save money and he's not worth the risk long term.

cutting him now wouldn't save any money this season

[coltsfanatic24]

cutting him now wouldn't save any money this season

After the season. Some suggest we should bring him back, I don't think we should or will.

[Adonai]

Begging your pardon

 

I pardon you. ;)

[HtownColt]

I can't get on twitter at work, but daaaang: 

 

Ian Rappaport: 

 

The Colts signed OL Donald Thomas to a 4-year, $14M contract last year. by the end of 2014, he'll have made $7M of it & played 2 games. 

 

 

5 quarters really..

[Coffeedrinker]

There's no way to limit them..its just bad luck

 

 

Not really...its a waste of time looking for someone to blame..

 

 

Agreed

The job of the strength and conditioning coaches is to set up a program of... wait for it.... strength and conditioning exercises to get the players stronger and to limit injuries.  That is their only job and they are not doing a very good job of it.  They will not prevent all injuries but like others have said, when a team in near the top in number of significant injuries every year then something should change.

 

The person that suggested pilates doesn't understand much about football.  Building core strength is good and building the long muscle fibers is not bad but you can't ignore the short muscle fibers and fast twitch muscle fibers because that is what gives a player suddenness and explosion.  Pilates is good for rehab but not for preparing a body for a season of football.

[el duderino]

first Ballard, now Thomas ... terrible... we didnt even play a game. Same crap different year I guess...

[chrisfarley]

here we go, already making excuses for the coming year.  even though you don't think you do, if you even mention injuries in a statement like, "well, I wish we would have been healthier but were not making any excuses for what happens on the field", another one, "Injuries are part of the game, next man up!!!", another, "all NFL teams experience this type of thing, we just happen to have been bit a little harder", .... blah, blah, blah.

[Le Neon]

~2% of our players brought to camp have been significantly hurt. Quick, fire everybody. Especially Blue. That guy's got crazy eyes.

[MrNLM]

~2% of our players brought to camp have been significantly hurt. Quick, fire everybody. Especially Blue. That guy's got crazy eyes.

Someone say my name?

 

[Le Neon]

Someone say my name?

Stared at that gif for about a minute. Now I'll never need coffee again.