Peyton vs Brady: Hater's Perspective

[dynasty13]

Please don't let this thread degenerate into a typical GOAT debate...it probably will eventually anyways, and then I guess we can lock it. This is more to look at how the argument has changed over the years, and how each side has at some point argued the same point both for AND against their guy. I was thinking about it after the game last night, and the similarities that these guys have when it comes to how other's view the debate are amazing.

 

A quick summary...the rivalry early on was based on a stats vs rings argument. Peyton defenders pointed to his amazing statistics for their argument of why he was the best, Brady defenders pointed to his championship hardware for their argument of why he was the best.

 

2006 is where things got interesting. Peyton wins the Superbowl, and now the argument skews in his favor because he had BOTH the statistics AND a Championship, and the popular sentiment was to put him at the top of their quarterback rankings.

 

One year leader, Brady puts up the best season a quarterback had ever had, and after 2007, he was back at the top of every quarterback list...and when he had his chance to essentially cement his place as the greatest of all time, he lost.

 

Then Peyton makes it back to the Superbowl in 2009, and leading up to the game, many were saying that if he won he would be the greatest of all time...but he lost.

 

Then Brady makes it back to the Superbowl again in 2011, and with the talk again centering around his quest for a 4th ring, the greatest argument started to point to him again...until he lost.

 

This season Peyton has the best season a quarterback has ever had, and once again the talk heading into the Superbowl was how a win would make him the greatest of all time...but he lost.

 

 

 

Anybody seeing a pattern here? The debate goes back and forth, back and forth constantly based solely on who is having a better season at that specific time. What's even more interesting is that the big 'trump card' for Brady haters has been how the (at that time) greatest offense ever was only able to manage 14 points against the Giants. I mean, how could Brady be considered the greatest of all time if he could only put up 14 points in the Superbowl? Well...all of a sudden that same argument can be made for Peyton in how the greatest offense ever only managed to put up 8 in the Superbowl against the Seahawks. 

 

Every point that a side has ever made to knock one guy down can be made to knock their own down too. That's why all this 'legacy' and 'greatest of all time' talk is so foolish while they are both still playing. It is a debate that will never be settled. I just think it's so interesting how the points made by each side and the 'trump cards' in the argument have been reversed and switched so many times...it makes every past debate about this topic so irrelevant.

[chad72]

The true aspect that is lost is Big Ben, Brady, Rodgers, Flacco, and now Russell Wilson all won their first SB before their first big contract. Once you fork up that franchise QB money, it is harder to build a balanced team all the way around. So, you have to draft real well.

 

Giants did so on the DL front and reaped the rewards despite having to fork our pre-rookie wage scale money to Eli.

 

Brady's Patriots were way less QB centric in terms of cap and win dependency when they won their SBs. Once they became more QB centric like Peyton's teams have always been, the typical knocking on the door happens and you make it to a big dance once or twice but both have lost their last 2 SBs to slightly more balanced teams and their run games have not been as much of a factor in their SB losses while their pass offenses came up short, whether it was a small or large margin.

[GoPats]

The Patriots loaded up on offense right around the same time that their defense from the championship years went well into full erosion mode. I don't think it was about salary cap issues as much as getting Brady some viable targets following 2006. Once they did that, they basically became the 2003-2004 Colts team... offensive juggernaut, but not built to win in January/February. 

 

Dynasty is right though, there has been a ton of back-and-forth in the Manning-Brady debate. I don't personally subscribe to the notion that there will ever been a consensus GOAT, but even if you do, maybe it makes sense to wait until both guys have retired before making any conclusions! Both of them could have more MVPs and/or championships before it's over.

[throwing BBZ]

Well written and balanced.

Brady one won with a Missed FG and with a Cheatter for a head coach.
PayaTON is the AFC South reg season wonder and the KING of One and Dones.
 

Both are of course Impressive and of the Best ten or so QB`s.
There are 5 or so I would be happy to have ahead of Manning. Maybe less with Brady, who I had SOME trouble hating even tho he played for the Vile, HATED Patriots.

[Valpo2004]

The true aspect that is lost is Big Ben, Brady, Rodgers, Flacco, and now Russell Wilson all won their first SB before their first big contract. Once you fork up that franchise QB money, it is harder to build a balanced team all the way around. So, you have to draft real well.

 

Giants did so on the DL front and reaped the rewards despite having to fork our pre-rookie wage scale money to Eli.

 

Brady's Patriots were way less QB centric in terms of cap and win dependency when they won their SBs. Once they became more QB centric like Peyton's teams have always been, the typical knocking on the door happens and you make it to a big dance once or twice but both have lost their last 2 SBs to slightly more balanced teams and their run games have not been as much of a factor in their SB losses while their pass offenses came up short, whether it was a small or large margin.

 

This, great teams will almost always beat a great QB.  It's hard to build a great team when you are paying your QB 20 million dollars.  

 

But at the same time, QB's who can play at this level are so limited that you can't really justify letting them go.  And a good/great QB alone can guarantee you a playoff birth every year.  

 

But being able to stand above everyone else in the playoffs, you need a great team.

[dgambill]

I would like us to stop trying to say who is the greatest and enjoy the last few years we have with them. Last night aside it has been an INCREDIBLE season to witness both in action. Brady's comebacks this year...really incredible drives...and Peyton's brillance. Sure they both sputtered out late...and we see that if either has a below avg game their team can't over come to win. I can't even begin to explain last nights game...but its just what happens to any team if they don't show up ready to play. Could Seattle had the game go any better for them....there was no resistance by Denver's defense, OL, WRs, and of course Peyton looked frazzled...he looked like a guy who knew it was slipping away...and couldn't stop it.

[Synthetic]

I never got into the Peyton vs Brady thing cause it seems so pointless.

 

 

I would take Brady over him cause 3 rings are more impressive than one. Even the Super Bowls NE lost, they didn't get blown out or blow them like the Saints and Seahawks shocked the world.

 

 

I don't believe either one of them are the greatest quarterback ever and it feels like a media creation to further hype the league in the same sense of Marino vs Montana or Kelly vs Moon.

 

I do have to say though how funny it is when Brady lost, I flipped through pages of all these topics ragging on him how he's terrible and a choker, but when Manning gets beat to a pulp, it's a different story. I know when Brees ran the stats up in 2011, people constantly were complaining about it and talking about how bad he was for doing that, but Manning did it all season long and it was cheered on and celebrated. Also when Brady did it in 2007, people hated him for it too. It's a contradiction to root one guy on for doing it, but to complain about two others that done it. I remember the 2007 Pats were hated so much on a global scale, and that's exactly how I saw this Broncos team. The arrogance in running the stats and scores up to pump their egos should have been treated the same it was with the 2011 Saints and 2007 Pats, but no the media turned this into a good vs evil thing and all year long all we heard about was how this offense was the greatest thing in NFL history. So when they only scored 8 points, it was pretty darn funny as much as they've been hyped up all year long.

 

I don't hate Tom Brady. I think he's an OK guy, just as I believe Manning is, but I don't buy into the whole idea of them being the greatest quarterbacks ever. What Brady did this season was impressive considering he had no one to throw to all year long. No Hernandez and no Gronk really hurt them. When Gronk went down, that was their entire season. They were done after that.

 

 

Last night you saw the so called greatest offense in history get absolutely slaughtered by a defense that was underestimated all season long. Manning and company only put 8 points on the board....8 total points. That should prove beyond a reason of doubt that the NFC was the best conference all year long. The Saints managed to make the game in Seattle a lot closer than that. I even think the 49ers would have gave Denver fits last night. The NFC Championship was the real Super Bowl this year, just as it was in 2009. Next year Denver plays the NFC West, and we will see just how awesome they really are against real teams and not cupcakes that let them run the stats and scores up.

 

That's what people forget. Denver had not played one really good team all year long. Their schedule was a cupcake fest and sure enough, that was proven with how they managed to run the stats up. Seattle played some of the toughest teams in the league, and soundly defeated them. In the playoffs Denver struggled against a banged up Chargers team that had no business being in the playoffs, and then they nearly let a banged up Patriots team come back and make it a game. Seattle on the other hand got New Orleans, and while the Saints played a lot better than the first meeting, they still beat them convincingly. Then they got a tough 49ers team that came out all guns blazing in the first half.

 

The Seahawks were more prepared cause they had to face two of the toughest teams in the league and during the season they played very tough defenses in their own division and so forth and beat them convincingly.

 

 

Maybe that's why it's so funny seeing Denver get creamed. The past two weeks this was supposed to be the greatest offense in NFL history. It was supposed to be ran by the greatest quarterback ever, and they were supposed to be this invincible juggernaut. Then when the big game comes, oh noes the Seahawks really meant business!

 

Seattle wanted it more just like the Giants wanted it more both times against the Pats. That's the only real difference between Brady and Manning. They both are old and past their prime, and in both of their last Super Bowls they were totally out played by teams that ultimately wanted it more than them. The Saints wanted it more than the Colts to the point they used the onside kick. The Seahawks just came out and wanted to slaughter these guys and ultimately did it. Those two Super Bowls the Pats lost to NY were a lot closer, but let's face it; they made mistakes too.

 

Can you even believe that 70% of all bets in Vegas were on Denver last night?

[ReMeDy]

I would take Brady over him cause 3 rings are more impressive than one. Even the Super Bowls NE lost, they didn't get blown out or blow them like the Saints and Seahawks shocked the world.

 

But you're forgetting the Patriots have Bill Belichick winning them games. Peyton Manning had to work with Jim Caldwell and still took his team to a Superbowl... The same Jim Caldwell who nearly doomed the Colts to a 0-16 season.

 

So let's put this in perspective. If both QB's had Jim Caldwell as their coach, now would you still take Brady over Peyton?

[Jules]

I don't get the obsession all the time with having the "best" guy. I mean I don't even care if anyone thinks Wilson or Kaepernick are better then Luck. So what, it's a fair argument right now unlike the RGIII hype last year. Besides, with the way the AFC currently looks we may get our chance in a few Super Bowls sooner then later too so Luck can maybe prove himself. It's just the "best" thing has always been a constant with Manning. Since he entered this league he was supposed to be the best. He was a Manning. He was royalty. And then somewhere in the universe a skinny peasant 6th round draft pick came along and stole his thunder at times. It's as if at times nobody could handle this.

 

Personally I give Brady the edge over Peyton. (hides from the rocks being thrown at me) I said as much last postseason too. I feel as if Brady teams consistently make deeper playoff runs even if they do not win it all. And I feel as if Brady DOES indeed do more with less talent at times around him.

 

I mean look, I hear all the time that Peyton did a lot with nothing in 2010 that season. What? Last time I checked we lost a few guys like Clark and Collie but we still had Reggie Wayne all year. And Garcon for most of it I think. Peyton always has stud receivers since day 1. ALWAYS. We learned just this past season how much a guy like Reggie Wayne can make a difference to an offense.

 

Last nights Super Bowl was a train wreck of epic proportions. While I don't put the loss just on Peyton at all since they all were bad......he was REALLY bad at times himself. It made the loss to the Saints in the Super Bowl look like a fairy tale now.

 

Seattle is a great great team. One of the best D's we have seen. I understand this too. Heck we played them and won. I also saw a dome Saints team keep it close with them until the end. I saw the 49ers have a shot to beat them in the end. I know they are great but Denver made them look like one of the best teams of all time last night.

 

Seattle also showed a lot more hunger then Denver and a lot more passion. It's not enough just to have all these pretty stats every year. You need a team around you and frankly they have to stop at times with the Peyton Manning legacy crap since it just feels like the rest of the teams around him are often just along for the ride and work for him rather then WITH him.

 

With that being said my early prediction is Peyton won't make it back to another Super Bowl. Super Bowl losers tend to not go back and this one will hurt.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Bledsoe to Brady  the hit that changed history .

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-presents/09000d5d8227f09b/Bledsoe-to-Brady-The-hit-that-changed-history

 

I remember thinking good Bledsoe is out  ..

 

Brady has done what Manning was supposed to do had the Colts been able to pay him & build a defense .

 

The 18 versus 12 debate is over IMO . Brady almost had a perfect season & more  playoff success plus  multiple SB rings  ,

 

Homerism aside both QB's are great , Brady is a overachiever with all things equal in the regular season both are at the top of there game . The only thing that seperates the 2 is SB wins  & UGGs .

[Narcosys]

Bledsoe to Brady  the hit that changed history .

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-presents/09000d5d8227f09b/Bledsoe-to-Brady-The-hit-that-changed-history

 

I remember thinking good Bledsoe is out  ..

 

Brady has done what Manning was supposed to do had the Colts been able to pay him & build a defense .

 

The 18 versus 12 debate is over IMO . Brady almost had a perfect season & more  playoff success plus  multiple SB rings  ,

 

Homerism aside both QB's are great , Brady is a overachiever with all things equal in the regular season both are at the top of there game . The only thing that seperates the 2 is SB wins  & UGGs .

 

It has begun....Go figure it would be the Pats fans to come in here and say Brady is better. Didnt the OP ask for people to not do it?

[BleedBlu8792]

It has begun....Go figure it would be the Pats fans to come in here and say Brady is better. Didnt the OP ask for people to not do it?

ADONIS is a Colts fan...

[Narcosys]

ADONIS is a Colts fan...

 

Could have fooled me with his posts.  Ive always thought otherwise.

[BleedBlu8792]

Could have fooled me with some of his previous posts.

Doesn't mean he has to share the same opinions as other Colts fans..

[sweetsurrender]

Bledsoe to Brady  the hit that changed history .

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-presents/09000d5d8227f09b/Bledsoe-to-Brady-The-hit-that-changed-history

 

I remember thinking good Bledsoe is out  ..

 

Brady has done what Manning was supposed to do had the Colts been able to pay him & build a defense .

 

The 18 versus 12 debate is over IMO . Brady almost had a perfect season & more  playoff success plus  multiple SB rings  ,

 

Homerism aside both QB's are great , Brady is a overachiever with all things equal in the regular season both are at the top of there game . The only thing that seperates the 2 is SB wins  & UGGs .

I agree with this. Brady has been more successful. Not sure that really can be argued anymore.

 

I still really have no idea where to rank Manning. I heard someone say yesterday that if he had a room full of the best QBs to ever play the game, he would have Brady, Montana and Bradshaw on one side of the room and Favre, Marino and Manning on the other side. Not sure if I agree with that but that may be the best way to think about it as of right now.

[dynasty13]

I agree with this. Brady has been more successful. Not sure that really can be argued anymore.

 

I still really have no idea where to rank Manning. I heard someone say yesterday that if he had a room full of the best QBs to ever play the game, he would have Brady, Montana and Bradshaw on one side of the room and Favre, Marino and Manning on the other side. Not sure if I agree with that but that may be the best way to think about it as of right now.

 

I dont agree with that...I wouldn't put Peyton behind a guy like Bradshaw on any list. Unfortunately, fair or not, Sunday's game has caused a lot of people to look at him as they do Favre. That's the danger in continually trying to put these absolutes on individual games. People were ready and waiting to crown Peyton as the greatest ever...but Sunday's loss certainly gave more ammo to his critics than it did to his defenders. The talk leading up all season was about his legacy...and if winning would have ensured it, then losing the way he did has to hurt it. That's the unfortunate side of such tremendous build up.

[chad72]

I agree with this. Brady has been more successful. Not sure that really can be argued anymore.

 

I still really have no idea where to rank Manning. I heard someone say yesterday that if he had a room full of the best QBs to ever play the game, he would have Brady, Montana and Bradshaw on one side of the room and Favre, Marino and Manning on the other side. Not sure if I agree with that but that may be the best way to think about it as of right now.

 

Brady has been more successful, no doubt, than Peyton in the postseason.

 

My top 5 would be Montana, Unitas, Elway, Brady and Manning still. Elway took weaker teams to the SBs, much weaker than what Brady and Peyton have put on their shoulders when you considered the talent disparity then between AFC and NFC then, and made plays with his arm and legs in critical moments in the playoffs (he still probably has a better arm than Peyton now).

 

Brett Favre makes Peyton's INTs look like chump change. He is still top 10 like Marino and Bradshaw. Bradshaw, like Montana, had a clear advantage in the playoffs with loaded teams, just in a different decade. But Montana had way better regular season numbers which is why he gets the clear advantage and it definitely counts against Bradshaw in that aspect. Two Cowboys, Staubach and Aikman round out the top 10, IMO.

 

Montana, Unitas, Elway, Brady, Manning, Marino, Aikman, Bradshaw, Favre, Staubach would be my top 10. But it is such a subjective list at this point.

[sweetsurrender]

Brady has been more successful, no doubt, than Peyton in the postseason.

 

My top 5 would be Montana, Unitas, Elway, Brady and Manning still. Elway took weaker teams to the SBs, much weaker than what Brady and Peyton have put on their shoulders when you considered the talent disparity then between AFC and NFC then, and made plays with his arm and legs in critical moments in the playoffs (he still probably has a better arm than Peyton now).

 

Brett Favre makes Peyton's INTs look like chump change. He is still top 10 like Marino and Bradshaw. Bradshaw, like Montana, had a clear advantage in the playoffs with loaded teams, just in a different decade. But Montana had way better regular season numbers which is why he gets the clear advantage and it definitely counts against Bradshaw in that aspect.

This is where I struggle. Putting Manning with the other multiple ring winners. I think he is top 10 but not top 5. I think Bradshaw has to be ahead of him. I would have him and Favre at 6 and 7. And again this is based on his career not his talent. As I think he and Marino are tops in terms of passing talent.

[chad72]

This is where I struggle. Putting Manning with the other multiple ring winners. I think he is top 10 but not top 5. I think Bradshaw has to be ahead of him. I would have him and Favre at 6 and 7. And again this is based on his career not his talent. As I think he and Marino are tops in terms of passing talent.

 

Yeah, Elway was 0-3 and would not have been considered for this top 10 list like Jim Kelly if he did not wrap it up with 2 SB rings. If Peyton and the Broncos miraculously win a ring in the next 2 years, things might change again. Such is the subjective nature of being wrapped up with SB rings to evaluate QBs.

 

Bradshaw's regular season numbers are not even in the same ballpark comparing other QBs in his era, Montana's clearly was.

 

Like I said before, you have to weight things in totality. That is why Bradshaw is top 10 and not top 5, IMO.

[Shane Bond]

Please don't let this thread degenerate into a typical GOAT debate...it probably will eventually anyways, and then I guess we can lock it. This is more to look at how the argument has changed over the years, and how each side has at some point argued the same point both for AND against their guy. I was thinking about it after the game last night, and the similarities that these guys have when it comes to how other's view the debate are amazing.

 

A quick summary...the rivalry early on was based on a stats vs rings argument. Peyton defenders pointed to his amazing statistics for their argument of why he was the best, Brady defenders pointed to his championship hardware for their argument of why he was the best.

 

2006 is where things got interesting. Peyton wins the Superbowl, and now the argument skews in his favor because he had BOTH the statistics AND a Championship, and the popular sentiment was to put him at the top of their quarterback rankings.

 

One year leader, Brady puts up the best season a quarterback had ever had, and after 2007, he was back at the top of every quarterback list...and when he had his chance to essentially cement his place as the greatest of all time, he lost.

 

Then Peyton makes it back to the Superbowl in 2009, and leading up to the game, many were saying that if he won he would be the greatest of all time...but he lost.

 

Then Brady makes it back to the Superbowl again in 2011, and with the talk again centering around his quest for a 4th ring, the greatest argument started to point to him again...until he lost.

 

This season Peyton has the best season a quarterback has ever had, and once again the talk heading into the Superbowl was how a win would make him the greatest of all time...but he lost.

 

 

 

Anybody seeing a pattern here? The debate goes back and forth, back and forth constantly based solely on who is having a better season at that specific time. What's even more interesting is that the big 'trump card' for Brady haters has been how the (at that time) greatest offense ever was only able to manage 14 points against the Giants. I mean, how could Brady be considered the greatest of all time if he could only put up 14 points in the Superbowl? Well...all of a sudden that same argument can be made for Peyton in how the greatest offense ever only managed to put up 8 in the Superbowl against the Seahawks. 

 

Every point that a side has ever made to knock one guy down can be made to knock their own down too. That's why all this 'legacy' and 'greatest of all time' talk is so foolish while they are both still playing. It is a debate that will never be settled. I just think it's so interesting how the points made by each side and the 'trump cards' in the argument have been reversed and switched so many times...it makes every past debate about this topic so irrelevant.

 

Exactly why we need to wait till they finish their careers to talk about who is better.

[Mameluc]

im sorry but in no way can you put bradshaw ahead of manning. at least in my opinion.

 

also the saints didnt blow out the colts like the poster mentioned. the game was a 1 td away, the int made it look like it was a lbow out.

 

also i remembver the game perfectly, the game had no defense because everytime brees/manning had the ball it was like 7 minute drives...which is probably the only reason the game didnt end up like 80 - 92

[Yehoodi]

Please don't let this thread degenerate into a typical GOAT debate...it probably will eventually anyways, and then I guess we can lock it. This is more to look at how the argument has changed over the years, and how each side has at some point argued the same point both for AND against their guy. I was thinking about it after the game last night, and the similarities that these guys have when it comes to how other's view the debate are amazing.

 

A quick summary...the rivalry early on was based on a stats vs rings argument. Peyton defenders pointed to his amazing statistics for their argument of why he was the best, Brady defenders pointed to his championship hardware for their argument of why he was the best.

 

2006 is where things got interesting. Peyton wins the Superbowl, and now the argument skews in his favor because he had BOTH the statistics AND a Championship, and the popular sentiment was to put him at the top of their quarterback rankings.

 

One year leader, Brady puts up the best season a quarterback had ever had, and after 2007, he was back at the top of every quarterback list...and when he had his chance to essentially cement his place as the greatest of all time, he lost.

 

Then Peyton makes it back to the Superbowl in 2009, and leading up to the game, many were saying that if he won he would be the greatest of all time...but he lost.

 

Then Brady makes it back to the Superbowl again in 2011, and with the talk again centering around his quest for a 4th ring, the greatest argument started to point to him again...until he lost.

 

This season Peyton has the best season a quarterback has ever had, and once again the talk heading into the Superbowl was how a win would make him the greatest of all time...but he lost.

 

 

 

Anybody seeing a pattern here? The debate goes back and forth, back and forth constantly based solely on who is having a better season at that specific time. What's even more interesting is that the big 'trump card' for Brady haters has been how the (at that time) greatest offense ever was only able to manage 14 points against the Giants. I mean, how could Brady be considered the greatest of all time if he could only put up 14 points in the Superbowl? Well...all of a sudden that same argument can be made for Peyton in how the greatest offense ever only managed to put up 8 in the Superbowl against the Seahawks. 

 

Every point that a side has ever made to knock one guy down can be made to knock their own down too. That's why all this 'legacy' and 'greatest of all time' talk is so foolish while they are both still playing. It is a debate that will never be settled. I just think it's so interesting how the points made by each side and the 'trump cards' in the argument have been reversed and switched so many times...it makes every past debate about this topic so irrelevant.

 

Nice post Dynasty and thanks for posting . . . and yes it is funny how history does repeat itself and how things can flip flop . . . and surely there are many here and throughout the nation that feel their feelings have stayed the same throughout those possible single game swings in the argument, I am one of them  . . . perhaps the two most potential swings would of been 2007 (19-0 and 4th ring) and this year 2013 (2nd ring and 5th MVP) . . . and perhaps why this year got so much attention . . .  

 

I think if we step back for a moment and look to see what we are discussing and yes it might be something that might want to wait till the end of their careers . . . but we as fans do like to discuss things and perhaps is more of who is in the lead (and thus if hold serve will win) at the time of the discussion . . . surely if one is leading the other wins 3 SBs and 3 MVPs some might feel it would sway back to the other person . . .

 

but nonetheless we are fans and do enjoy discussing things and although the label does have finality to it . . . I tend to look at it as a to date resume and what do people thinks . . . and if we look at it that way then I can see how some might be swayed . . .

[sweetsurrender]

Yeah, Elway was 0-3 and would not have been considered for this top 10 list like Jim Kelly if he did not wrap it up with 2 SB rings. If Peyton and the Broncos miraculously win a ring in the next 2 years, things might change again. Such is the subjective nature of being wrapped up with SB rings to evaluate QBs.

 

Bradshaw's regular season numbers are not even in the same ballpark comparing other QBs in his era, Montana's clearly was.

 

Like I said before, you have to weight things in totality. That is why Bradshaw is top 10 and not top 5, IMO.

I think all the players we are looking at have more than just rings as if not then we would also be discussing Plunkett, Eli and Big Ben. But I do agree, if we look at totality then I think Brady would be ahead of everyone because of the the free agency, cap era. His stats, winning and rings are worth more in my view as he did not have the powerhouse teams of the other dynasties that were kept together for years. Bradshaw is tied for the most ever rings in the sport so hard to put him outside of top 5 regardless of stats. 

 

I think the tougher guys are the guys with the stats and one ring (Favre, Manning and even Rodgers and Brees if they don't get another ring) and of course Marino who has none. We all know how great of QBs they are yet the post-season is a separator.

[braveheartcolt]

I don't get the obsession all the time with having the "best" guy. I mean I don't even care if anyone thinks Wilson or Kaepernick are better then Luck. So what, it's a fair argument right now unlike the RGIII hype last year. Besides, with the way the AFC currently looks we may get our chance in a few Super Bowls sooner then later too so Luck can maybe prove himself. It's just the "best" thing has always been a constant with Manning. Since he entered this league he was supposed to be the best. He was a Manning. He was royalty. And then somewhere in the universe a skinny peasant 6th round draft pick came along and stole his thunder at times. It's as if at times nobody could handle this.

 

Personally I give Brady the edge over Peyton. (hides from the rocks being thrown at me) I said as much last postseason too. I feel as if Brady teams consistently make deeper playoff runs even if they do not win it all. And I feel as if Brady DOES indeed do more with less talent at times around him.

 

I mean look, I hear all the time that Peyton did a lot with nothing in 2010 that season. What? Last time I checked we lost a few guys like Clark and Collie but we still had Reggie Wayne all year. And Garcon for most of it I think. Peyton always has stud receivers since day 1. ALWAYS. We learned just this past season how much a guy like Reggie Wayne can make a difference to an offense.

 

Last nights Super Bowl was a train wreck of epic proportions. While I don't put the loss just on Peyton at all since they all were bad......he was REALLY bad at times himself. It made the loss to the Saints in the Super Bowl look like a fairy tale now.

 

Seattle is a great great team. One of the best D's we have seen. I understand this too. Heck we played them and won. I also saw a dome Saints team keep it close with them until the end. I saw the 49ers have a shot to beat them in the end. I know they are great but Denver made them look like one of the best teams of all time last night.

 

Seattle also showed a lot more hunger then Denver and a lot more passion. It's not enough just to have all these pretty stats every year. You need a team around you and frankly they have to stop at times with the Peyton Manning legacy crap since it just feels like the rest of the teams around him are often just along for the ride and work for him rather then WITH him.

 

With that being said my early prediction is Peyton won't make it back to another Super Bowl. Super Bowl losers tend to not go back and this one will hurt.

They are both post season chokers, for the last 7 years at least. Living off the past, and some regular season target practice.

 

Big Ben and Eli are the real GOATs.

 

Honest, they are....

[amfootball]

Please don't let this thread degenerate into a typical GOAT debate...it probably will eventually anyways, and then I guess we can lock it. This is more to look at how the argument has changed over the years, and how each side has at some point argued the same point both for AND against their guy. I was thinking about it after the game last night, and the similarities that these guys have when it comes to how other's view the debate are amazing.

 

A quick summary...the rivalry early on was based on a stats vs rings argument. Peyton defenders pointed to his amazing statistics for their argument of why he was the best, Brady defenders pointed to his championship hardware for their argument of why he was the best.

 

2006 is where things got interesting. Peyton wins the Superbowl, and now the argument skews in his favor because he had BOTH the statistics AND a Championship, and the popular sentiment was to put him at the top of their quarterback rankings.

 

One year leader, Brady puts up the best season a quarterback had ever had, and after 2007, he was back at the top of every quarterback list...and when he had his chance to essentially cement his place as the greatest of all time, he lost.

 

Then Peyton makes it back to the Superbowl in 2009, and leading up to the game, many were saying that if he won he would be the greatest of all time...but he lost.

 

Then Brady makes it back to the Superbowl again in 2011, and with the talk again centering around his quest for a 4th ring, the greatest argument started to point to him again...until he lost.

 

This season Peyton has the best season a quarterback has ever had, and once again the talk heading into the Superbowl was how a win would make him the greatest of all time...but he lost.

 

 

 

Anybody seeing a pattern here? The debate goes back and forth, back and forth constantly based solely on who is having a better season at that specific time. What's even more interesting is that the big 'trump card' for Brady haters has been how the (at that time) greatest offense ever was only able to manage 14 points against the Giants. I mean, how could Brady be considered the greatest of all time if he could only put up 14 points in the Superbowl? Well...all of a sudden that same argument can be made for Peyton in how the greatest offense ever only managed to put up 8 in the Superbowl against the Seahawks. 

 

Every point that a side has ever made to knock one guy down can be made to knock their own down too. That's why all this 'legacy' and 'greatest of all time' talk is so foolish while they are both still playing. It is a debate that will never be settled. I just think it's so interesting how the points made by each side and the 'trump cards' in the argument have been reversed and switched so many times...it makes every past debate about this topic so irrelevant.

Great post D. The pendulum has swung again for sure. We'll be interesting to see where things end up when both are done playing.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

 

It has begun....Go figure it would be the Pats fans to come in here and say Brady is better. Didnt the OP ask for people to not do it?

 

As A    I sir have never been a Patriot fan , However I & a Patriot fan felt our teams would Win & the loser would wear the AVI Pic of the winning fans choice as a man of my word I'm stuck with Tom Brady for 30 days   I always believe in my team ..  

 

It has begun....Go figure it would be the Pats fans to come in here and say Brady is better. Didnt the OP ask for people to not do it?

 

 

So open mouth insert foot .   

 

I'm a homer & I bleed the blue but I don't live in a fantasy world 18 was a special Colt who did great things for this City & State & Tom Brady a late round pick has been with him every step of the way & the Hoodie someone we all at 1 time or another have hated have to admit ,he has earned our respect for his teams will to win &  play a full 60 minutes  hard  .

 

Manning & Brady are basicly joined at the hip with both having great regular season success over the years  & both QB's  have had the opportunity for a perfect season ,

In the playoffs New England has the edge  with Superbowl Wins & Appearances so I'v fought the who is better than who wars over the years , BUT at the end of the day I have respect for what has been accomplished by both QB's .

 

Apples & Oranges      I cheer 12   he IMO will surpass both .

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Could have fooled me with his posts.  Ive always thought otherwise.

 

Take off your rose colored glasses Miss ..

[braveheartcolt]

Does anyone find it weird that some think Manning has fallen behind Brady because of the SB blow-out, yet he went further than Brady did this year, and actually out played him in the AFCCG?

[GoPats]

But you're forgetting the Patriots have Bill Belichick winning them games. Peyton Manning had to work with Jim Caldwell and still took his team to a Superbowl... The same Jim Caldwell who nearly doomed the Colts to a 0-16 season.

 

So let's put this in perspective. If both QB's had Jim Caldwell as their coach, now would you still take Brady over Peyton?

 

A little disingenuous here. 

 

Caldwell had a healthy Manning for, what, two seasons? One of which the Colts went to the Super Bowl after starting 14-0 (and only eventually losing because Polian ordered him to sit guys)? I agree Caldwell was not a good head coach, but making him a scapegoat for Manning's postseason difficulties is weak. Manning is 2-2 in the playoffs under Caldwell as a head coach, which is actually better than his overall postseason winning percentage. 

 

I like Manning and respect him, but the excuses some of his most hardcore fans come up with are mind-blowing sometimes.

[amfootball]

Does anyone find it weird that some think Manning has fallen behind Brady because of the SB blow-out, yet he went further than Brady did this year, and actually out played him in the AFCCG?

Not sure either game proves anything. Brady also outplayed Manning in the regular season coming back from 24-0. And then like you said you have the AFCCG where Manning won and played better. I think Manning was going for something bigger than his rivalry with Brady on Sunday. He was trying to quiet his critics who say he needs to have multiple rings to be in the GOAT discussion. That was what was at stake from a media standpoint more so then how he is viewed against Brady. All the legacy talk, etc ...

[sweetsurrender]

But you're forgetting the Patriots have Bill Belichick winning them games. Peyton Manning had to work with Jim Caldwell and still took his team to a Superbowl... The same Jim Caldwell who nearly doomed the Colts to a 0-16 season.

 

So let's put this in perspective. If both QB's had Jim Caldwell as their coach, now would you still take Brady over Peyton?

Manning had Dungy for most of his career and he was up for the HoF this year. And Caldwell took Peyton to his second super bowl which should have been another ring.

[Narcosys]

Take off your rose colored glasses Miss ..

 

So address your other post as well.

 

1.  Its no foot in mouth when your pic and posts both lean towards a patriots fan.  I can only guy by what someone says or does.  Kinda like a first impression.  I may have been wrong, but far from a foot in mouth when other factors are taken into consideration.

 

2.  You say youre a homer, however you actually dont side with your team all the time and defend them in all instances.  Thats not being a homer.

 

3. Idk if you sincerely believe me to be a single female, or if youre just intentionally trying to be insulting.  One is ignorance which is fine.  The other can get people in trouble if they were to say it to someones face. 

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

So address your other post as well.

1. Its no foot in mouth when your pic and posts both lean towards a patriots fan. I can only guy by what someone says or does. Kinda like a first impression. I may have been wrong, but far from a foot in mouth when other factors are taken into consideration.

2. You say youre a homer, however you actually dont side with your team all the time and defend them in all instances. Thats not being a homer.

3. Idk if you sincerely believe me to be a single female, or if youre just intentionally trying to be insulting. One is ignorance which is fine. The other can get people in trouble if they were to say it to someones face.

Well if you are in fact a Dude then I doubt he will say it to your face...

[BleedBlu8792]

Does anyone find it weird that some think Manning has fallen behind Brady because of the SB blow-out, yet he went further than Brady did this year, and actually out played him in the AFCCG?

It's not that far-fetched considering that New England probably had the weakest roster of all the playoff teams yet made it to the AFCCG.

[braveheartcolt]

It's not that far-fetched considering that New England probably had the weakest roster of all the playoff teams yet made it to the AFCCG.

That defines any logic. Most Brady supporters have repeatedly ignored 'strength of roster' in their idolisation of Tom.

[Yehoodi]

Does anyone find it weird that some think Manning has fallen behind Brady because of the SB blow-out, yet he went further than Brady did this year, and actually out played him in the AFCCG?

 

I am not so sure fallen behind is a word as much as he missed an opportunity to close the gap (for those who think Brady is ahead to date) . . . I think they are looking at it from an overall career standpoint . . . for me, and I guess those too, Manning put on his resume an AFCCG win, the third of his career and 4th overall appearance in the game . . . that can not be taken away regardless of the result in the SB . . . and if Manning can get a SB win or two before he retires then he will has those plus this year to add to the depth of his resume .  . . however, with that said he had an opportunity to put a 2nd ring on his resume and was not able to get it this year . . .

 

As for the quirkiness of going farther in a particular year and not closing the gap, look at the careers comparison like a 60 minute single game and we need to figure out who had the better game . . . one guy gets three TDs early (SB wins if you will) and a few FGs (deep runs in the playoffs) and the other guy is coming on strong in the second half but trails say 31-21 with 9 minutes to play, the first guy gets a first down (like an AFCCG appearance) and then punts and other guy drives the field with a beautiful drive but stalls in the red zone on downs or INT, and the score remains 31-21 with 5 minutes to play . . . true he had a better drive and did excellent on that drive, but was not able to close out the overall score and time is running out in the game (i.e. career) . . . so yes QB #2 did better as between those too particular drives (I.e a given year in a overall career) but there are 4 less minutes on the clock (career) and the resumes are still roughly in the same spot as the 9 minute mark . . .

 

Although Brady did not go as far as Manning and was beaten by him, he did inch up his resume a bit with an 8th AFCCG appearance, which will mitigate to a degree the SB appearance by Manning . . . well reduce somewhat the distance Manning close with the SB appearance, again for those who think Brady is ahead of Manning overall    

[dynasty13]

Does anyone find it weird that some think Manning has fallen behind Brady because of the SB blow-out, yet he went further than Brady did this year, and actually out played him in the AFCCG?

 

To an extent, yes. But I think for those that are judging based on the Superbowl, it is more about how he played in the game, not the fact that he was simply in it. We've seen this before, in the 'what have you done for me lately' NFL: People dont remember the march TO the Superbowl...only the fact that they were embarrassed in it. Whether that's fair or not, that's just the way things go from a fan's standpoint. And unfortunately, this game did nothing to quiet the 'hes a great regular season quarterback, but fails in big games' contingent. 

 

All in all, Peyton had a lot more to lose in this Superbowl than he did to gain...but that's the cost of having the highest of expectations due to being one of the all time greats.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

So address your other post as well.

 

1.  Its no foot in mouth when your pic and posts both lean towards a patriots fan.  I can only guy by what someone says or does.  Kinda like a first impression.  I may have been wrong, but far from a foot in mouth when other factors are taken into consideration.

 

2.  You say youre a homer, however you actually dont side with your team all the time and defend them in all instances.  Thats not being a homer.

 

3. Idk if you sincerely believe me to be a single female, or if youre just intentionally trying to be insulting.  One is ignorance which is fine.  The other can get people in trouble if they were to say it to someones face. 

 

Yeah you was wrong then & still stuck on wrong now . Its called Trolling .

 

1. You called me a Brady fan based on a pic & a couple of posts -     Anotherwards your have only noticed what was written in this thread & not noticed anything else I'v posted anywheres on these boards & took the opportunity to attack a poster based on ignorance    .

 

 2. Questioning my fanhood ?   Blood on the Tracks also has the same pic We Believe in the Blue & I'm sure others felt as we did . YEAH I'm a COLTS  Homer a honest one I replaced 1 clown pic with another because my team lost .  . Go figure .

 

3.   First impression - Intentional of course not -   I agree 100% with your last statement the best part of being me is I'v had the pleasure & enjoy the opportunities to express my self no matter where I am  . However on a message board it only shows weakness to attack the poster & not the post . So excuse me if I'm not at all impressed . :clap:

 

4. I loved Peyton Manning as a Colt period .  I'v been a Colts fan since they came to Indy & have liked lots of players , But I'm no fan of any other team . especially the Broncos .

 

So       -      You say youre a homer, however you actually dont side with your team all the time and defend them in all instances.  Thats not being a homer.

 

Now tell me or show me what it is your referring too .  Show the post that reflects your reasoning .  I realize your clueless but if you can produce a post I wrote backing up your opinion I'd love to see it .

[Narcosys]

Yeah you was wrong then & still stuck on wrong now . Its called Trolling .

 

1. You called me a Brady fan based on a pic & a couple of posts -     Anotherwards your have only noticed what was written in this thread & not noticed anything else I'v posted anywheres on these boards & took the opportunity to attack a poster based on ignorance    .

 

 2. Questioning my fanhood ?   Blood on the Tracks also has the same pic We Believe in the Blue & I'm sure others felt as we did . YEAH I'm a COLTS  Homer a honest one I replaced 1 clown pic with another because my team lost .  . Go figure .

 

3.   First impression - Intentional of course not -   I agree 100% with your last statement the best part of being me is I'v had the pleasure & enjoy the opportunities to express my self no matter where I am  . However on a message board it only shows weakness to attack the poster & not the post . So excuse me if I'm not at all impressed . :clap:

 

4. I loved Peyton Manning as a Colt period .  I'v been a Colts fan since they came to Indy & have liked lots of players , But I'm no fan of any other team . especially the Broncos .

 

So       -      You say youre a homer, however you actually dont side with your team all the time and defend them in all instances.  Thats not being a homer.

 

Now tell me or show me what it is your referring too .  Show the post that reflects your reasoning .  I realize your clueless but if you can produce a post I wrote backing up your opinion I'd love to see it .

 

Im trolling.  But youre the one doing exactly what the poster was asking not to do...mmmmk. 

 

 My original post was FAR from attacking you in any way.  Youre too sensitive.

 

 So me only pointing out the obvious about your post is attacking...but you calling me a miss is not attacking.  You cant seem to keep your ideas straight at all.  My post was about your post,  but thats attacking.  Then you speaking directly at me is not attacking.  Then you say attacking the person and not the post is weakness.  I know you dont see it, so why bother.  Youre now ignored, have a nice day.

[pacolts56]

Setting aside all the past arguments....they both run the risk of now becoming somewhat pitiful stat / ring chasers, teetering on "smelly Uncle Carl who stayed at the party too long" status.

 

In fact....the signs of it may have begun last weekend.

 

Sure....it was the Super Bowl, but if Denver slips back to 8-8 and out of the playoffs next season, we might see Peyton pitching Ensure and reverse-mortgages instead of pizza, amidst questions of why he stayed so long. And Brady is no different if roster cracks keep happening in New England.

 

These crashes can happen very rapidly, and after all....there are tried and true blueprints for attacking and beating these two guys.