Is the verdict out on Werner yet? (Mega Merge)

[Quallenregen]

look for the other 2013 OLB and there stats....its not a easy position to learn.

 

first year  - injury / sam backup the most time / plan ...backup for Mathis

second year...plan - backup for Mathis/  then starter for four games/ then starter for x games...they are big shoes for a second year player.

 

Nothing goes like plan.....I think  its to much pressure to succeed for him at the moment.

[wesd2890]

look for the other 2013 OLB and there stats....its not a easy position to learn.

first year - injury / sam backup the most time / plan ...backup for Mathis

second year...plan - backup for Mathis/ then starter for four games/ then starter for x games...they are big shoes for a second year player.

Nothing goes like plan.....I think its to much pressure to succeed for him at the moment.

Point is you dont use a 1st round pick on someone who is "planned" to be a back up for 3 years. Thats what is called a 4th-7th round pick. Cant handle the pressure? There is no room for people in the nfl that cant handle "pressure". Get em outta here

[Jason_]

Point is you dont use a 1st round pick on someone who is "planned" to be a back up for 3 years. Thats what is called a 4th-7th round pick. Cant handle the pressure? There is no room for people in the nfl that cant handle "pressure". Get em outta here

 

The "Plan" was for him to spell Mathis at RushLB AND be used as a situational pass rusher his rookie year. If you want a quality pass rusher then you spend a high pick on one.  The not handling pressure part was speculation on the part of that poster.  Yes, it is true that Werner hasn't come along as quickly as most would hope.  But wanting him cut and off the team after only 4 games into his 2nd year in the league while still on a rookie contract is remarkably stupid.

[Gavin]

The "Plan" was for him to spell Mathis at RushLB AND be used as a situational pass rusher his rookie year. If you want a quality pass rusher then you spend a high pick on one.  The not handling pressure part was speculation on the part of that poster.  Yes, it is true that Werner hasn't come along as quickly as most would hope.  But wanting him cut and off the team after only 4 games into his 2nd year in the league while still on a rookie contract is remarkably stupid.

Agree with everything here except there is a counter to that and this is this: Jerry Hughes was traded after 3 years and only 1 in what was the new scheme at the time

[Jason_]

Agree with everything here except there is a counter to that and this is this: Jerry Hughes was traded after 3 years and only 1 in what was the new scheme at the time

 

The Hughes and Werner situations are hardly the same.  That shouldn't need to be explained.

[Gavin]

The Hughes and Werner situations are hardly the same.  That shouldn't need to be explained.

Not exactly the same but also not so different:

 

1.Both were late 1st round picks

 

2.Both were brought into be rotational(With Hughes getting far less snaps then Werner has had)

 

3.Neither lived up to expectations of there draft status right away(Meaning they did not produce from day 1 like many expected...yes I realize Werner is only  17 games played into his career and 5 starts, Though Hughes should have never been a 1st rounder..To raw)

 

4.Many scouts believed Hughes would be a better fit in a 3-4 and Werner a better fit as a 4-3 LDE

[Jason_]

Not exactly the same but also not so different:

 

1.Both were late 1st round picks

 

2.Both were brought into be rotational(With Hughes getting far less snaps then Werner has had)

 

3.Neither lived up to expectations of there draft status right away(Meaning they did not produce from day 1 like many expected...yes I realize Werner is only  17 games played into his career and 5 starts, Though Hughes should have never been a 1st rounder..To raw)

 

4.Many scouts believed Hughes would be a better fit in a 3-4 and Werner a better fit as a 4-3 LDE

 

the 3 biggest differences, 1) Hughes was drafted prior to the CBA change to cap rookie salaries. 2) Hughes was drafted by the prior regime and 3) Hughes played for 3 FULL seasons with the Colts...Werner hasn't even played for 1 and a half yet.  

[Gavin]

the 3 biggest differences, 1) Hughes was drafted prior to the CBA change to cap rookie salaries. 2) Hughes was drafted by the prior regime and 3) Hughes played for 3 FULL seasons with the Colts...Werner hasn't even played for 1 and a half yet.  

2.Mathis was also drafted by the prior regime....

 

3.Actually Hughes played in 40 of 48 games as a Colt while  starting 7(and of course he wasn't going to start or get a lot of snaps with Freeney and Mathis entrenched as the starters)...Now I don't have any specific numbers on how many snaps on defense he had prior to the new regime however but I would imagine they were few and far between given who was in front of him

[wesd2890]

The "Plan" was for him to spell Mathis at RushLB AND be used as a situational pass rusher his rookie year. If you want a quality pass rusher then you spend a high pick on one. The not handling pressure part was speculation on the part of that poster. Yes, it is true that Werner hasn't come along as quickly as most would hope. But wanting him cut and off the team after only 4 games into his 2nd year in the league while still on a rookie contract is remarkably stupid.

How is a 1st round pick not high? And my "get em outta here" remark is to anyone who cant handle pressure of the nfl. Not just werner in particular. But yeah we spent a quality 1st round pick on a pass rusher thats not living up to the name.

[SteelCityColt]

the 3 biggest differences, 1) Hughes was drafted prior to the CBA change to cap rookie salaries. 2) Hughes was drafted by the prior regime and 3) Hughes played for 3 FULL seasons with the Colts...Werner hasn't even played for 1 and a half yet.

You forget too that regardless of regime Hughes has subsequently made it clear he didn't want to be a Colt during his time here. I'd hope Werner does.

[Jason_]

2.Mathis was also drafted by the prior regime....

3.Actually Hughes played in 40 of 48 games as a Colt while starting 7(and of course he wasn't going to start or get a lot of snaps with Freeney and Mathis entrenched as the starters)...Now I don't have any specific numbers on how many snaps on defense he had prior to the new regime however but I would imagine they were few and far between given who was in front of him

What on earth does mathis have to do with this?

[DougDew]

Werner is not as athletic as Mathis, nor as athletic as an elite rusher should be.  He needs to share time with Walden.  Werner was drafted to have more responsibilities on first and second downs than Mathis had, IMO.

 

What is Werner's run-tackle or assist-tackle, non sack, numbers compared to Mathis after Mathis' first 17 games...even in the new scheme when Mathis was a 10 year vet?

 

The times I focused on Werner, he has mostly been double-teamed.  I suspect that I watch him on obvious passing situations, so I am assuming that he doubled or chipped in those situations.  I'm not sure that he is even trying to rush the passer always in other situations....like Mathis does.

 

Werner also has no help.  It would be interesting to see him line up in Walden's spot and a top 15-pick pass rusher line up in Mathis' spot......then judge Werner.

 

Its tough to really judge a second year low first round player when he is the guy the other team focuses on during passing situations.

[ruksak]

the 3 biggest differences, 1) Hughes was drafted prior to the CBA change to cap rookie salaries. 2) Hughes was drafted by the prior regime and 3) Hughes played for 3 FULL seasons with the Colts...Werner hasn't even played for 1 and a half yet.  

One thing that binds them (Hughes and Werner). MANY fans were declaring Jerry a bust early in his second year. MANY fans defended Hughes exclaiming it's too early to call him a bust. 

 

As history has determined, he was, in fact, a bust. 

 

Why did I declare Werner a bust early this summer? Because I had a sense that I've seen this movie before, and I don't like how it ends. 

[Jason_]

One thing that binds them (Hughes and Werner). MANY fans were declaring Jerry a bust early in his second year. MANY fans defended Hughes exclaiming it's too early to call him a bust.

As history has determined, he was, in fact, a bust.

Why did I declare Werner a bust early this summer? Because I had a sense that I've seen this movie before, and I don't like how it ends.

Dude you gotta watch the director's cut with the alternate ending ;)

[ruksak]

Dude you gotta watch the director's cut with the alternate ending ;)

CGI would help his case. Michael Bay, help us out here, will ya? 

 

I hope you're right, I hope I'm wrong. It gives me zero satisfaction to watch a prized 1st round pick wallow in mediocrity. 

[wesd2890]

CGI would help his case. Michael Bay, help us out here, will ya?

I hope you're right, I hope I'm wrong. It gives me zero satisfaction to watch a prized 1st round pick wallow in mediocrity.

Mediocrity?.. 8 combined tackles and 0 sacks in 198 snaps is not mediocrity. Its nothing more than awful. And hes not just setting the edge or rushing the passer he is also in coverage. How do you not even rack up some assisted tackles.. how are you literally now where to be found by the ball carrier in 198 plays. Mediocrity is a over statement. Its only his second year i know i know. But there literally hasnt been any kinda glimpse or wow factor that makes me believe this kid will be anything

[ThatOneColtFan]

He's not going to replace Freeny or Mathis by a longshot, but I can see him being thriving in a 4-3 with some talent on the line to compliment him. He seems so out of place in our scheme sometimes, but then again, a lot of guys do. Here's to hoping these guys jel together better later in the season.

[Douzer]

JFYI... I have avoided this thread for weeks and did not read a word before adding this observation (untainted).

 

It appears to me Werner is very close to making an impact. Last season (IMO) he was stoned often and driven around the back of the pocket and out of harms way rather routinely. This season he has routinely been a finger tip away from his target. The strength and technique practice seems to be working. If this rate of improvement continues, I see him breaking through and becoming a disruptive DE. I think he's very close now.... 

[Gavin]

What on earth does mathis have to do with this?

He was drafted by the prior regime

[Jason_]

He was drafted by the prior regime

 

um, yeah I realize that.  Still don't see how that ties in to the discussion we were having.  

 

I said, it is monumentally stupid to want Werner to be cut after only 4 games into his 2nd season in the NFL.  This was the point that you began responding to.  If you disagree with that point, then we should start over because we are certainly not on the same page right now.

[Buck Showalter]

Howd Werner look today i couldnt watch the game???

[Dark Superman]

He looked good against a backup LT

[Smurphy1]

Howd Werner look today i couldnt watch the game???

 

He looked really good actually. He had 2 sacks too.

[sfergson727]

Werner looked a lot better!!!

[James Harden]

The guy deserve the game ball

[pgt_rob]

Howd Werner look today i couldnt watch the game???

He looked good! 2 sacks.

[NewEra]

Put pressure on all day and even got a couple sacks.

[Cynjin]

Howd Werner look today i couldnt watch the game???

Best game he has played so far. Hopefully he can keep it up.

[DougDew]

Today, against the Ravens, he was better than Suggs.

[John Dee]

All is well...     go find another whipping boy...

[Gavin]

um, yeah I realize that.  Still don't see how that ties in to the discussion we were having.  

 

I said, it is monumentally stupid to want Werner to be cut after only 4 games into his 2nd season in the NFL.  This was the point that you began responding to.  If you disagree with that point, then we should start over because we are certainly not on the same page right now.

you made Werner should not be cut 4 games into his 2nd year (at that time) into his career, I agree, I was just stating Jerry Hughes was cut 7 starts into his career

[braveheartcolt]

We are not worthy, Douzer!

[wesd2890]

Today, against the Ravens, he was better than Suggs.

Suggs was playing hurt. He wasnt even gonna play til this morning.

[Buck Showalter]

Howd Werner look today i couldnt watch the game???

I lied, i watched the game...

[Jason_]

you made Werner should not be cut 4 games into his 2nd year (at that time) into his career, I agree, I was just stating Jerry Hughes was cut 7 starts into his career

All that means is that Hughes had far more opportunities to be a starter that he couldn't take advantage of.

Situations are too different. I don't in any way think it was a stupid decision to trade Hughes but it would be to cut werner. Especially after the game he played today . As far as the Hughes trade, I still like the trade....it just sucks that Sheppard didn't work out.

[Gavin]

All that means is that Hughes had far more opportunities to be a starter that he couldn't take advantage of.

Situations are too different. I don't in any way think it was a stupid decision to trade Hughes but it would be to cut werner. Especially after the game he played today . As far as the Hughes trade, I still like the trade....it just sucks that Sheppard didn't work out.

4 sacks in the first year in a new scheme while only starting 6 games isn't far more starts, I disagree that it wasn't a dumb move to trade Hughes, I mean it certainly wasn't a huge loss of course but he did well enough to warrant keeping him to see if he could increase his sack total while competing with Werner or Walden, At the same time we traded him for an ILB that we didn't need. At the end of the day though its done and over

[Jason_]

4 sacks in the first year in a new scheme while only starting 6 games isn't far more starts, I disagree that it wasn't a dumb move to trade Hughes, I mean it certainly wasn't a huge loss of course but he did well enough to warrant keeping him to see if he could increase his sack total while competing with Werner or Walden, At the same time we traded him for an ILB that we didn't need. At the end of the day though its done and over

You are misreading and misremembering. I did NOT say that 6 games was far more starts. I said that Hughes had far more OPPORTUNITIES to start since he was with the Colts for 3 full seasons vs. Werner who has been with the Colts for 1 1/4 season. 48 games for Hughes vs. 20 for werner.

Also, when the trade was made, the colts still had mathis, plus had just signed both walden and sidbury. ILB however was a bigger mystery at the time because mcnary was a complete unknown who hadn't played a game of football in a couple years and angerer and conner weren't the best fits for the defense. Other than those guys we had freeman, who we had no idea if he would be more than a one year wonder at the time.

Without the benefit of hindsight which tells us that Sheppard did not work out, I still liked the trade. It also cerainly didn't help that sidbury hit IR before the season started.

[ruksak]

He's making me wrong, and I love it. 

[BleedBlu8792]

He's making me wrong, and I love it. 

 

The sky's the limit for him now. As Redding and Mathis said, he just needs his one break out game and he's good. Well, I believe this was it. He was very close the last couple of games, but just couldn't finish. I think Newsome looked good as well in the limited time he played. He eased up on Flacco when he could have had a sack, but I think he was afraid of dropping him and getting a penalty. The pass rush is coming around, and it doesn't hurt that the secondary has held up wonderfully either.

[GoColts8818]

The guy deserve the game ball

agreed, two sacks a tipped pass and a couple of other big tackles.