Are you happy with the Wentz acquisition?

[Thebrashandthebold]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

No,   you choose to second guess things that you are uninformed about.    I bet you thought Earl Morral was going to suck in 68

No, I thought he was a very good QB. I certainly preferred Johnny U. I am not second guessing. I can see the wholes and it will take a lot of work to do that. I am not convinced that Wentz is the read deal but as everyone says, the price was right and we can bail after next year if he can't get it done.

[Colt.45]

3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Hopeful.  If you can't be hopeful,  what's the point?

You're imposing your manhood/life beliefs on others. That's not how it works.

Some people like to be fans for the bonding experience. Some are fans because they were born into it. Some are fans because it it's their city ball club. 

 

Heck, it's better coming from Wiki. "They attribute people becoming fans to the following factors: One element is entertainment, because sports spectatorship is a form of leisure. Sports is also a form of escapism, and being a fan gives one an excuse to yell at something, an activity that may be constrained in other areas of one's life"

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, Colt.45 said:

You're imposing your manhood/life beliefs on others. That's not how it works.

Some people like to be fans for the bonding experience. Some are fans because they were born into it. Some are fans because it it's their city ball club. 

 

Heck, it's better coming from Wiki. "They attribute people becoming fans to the following factors: One element is entertainment, because sports spectatorship is a form of leisure. Sports is also a form of escapism, and being a fan gives one an excuse to yell at something, an activity that may be constrained in other areas of one's life"

Did you just assume my gender?  

[Colt.45]

12 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Did you just assume my gender?  

autocorrect. Should say FANhood

[Dingus McGirt]

43 minutes ago, Thebrashandthebold said:

You asked me a question and I gave you a straight answer about what I thought. I don't attend parties.

Say it ain’t so.

[EastStreet]

57 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

You must be a riot at parties.   

[DeathByEagle]

Eagles season ticket holder for over 25+ years,

 

Wishing all the Colts fans the best of luck in the up coming season. Im a Wentz and Frank supporter and will be following the Colts closely, hoping to see them bring back what they had in 2017 and land a ring together in Indy. 

 

You are getting a very good QB when he has a well oiled system in place. I always felt Frank was the key to that success in Philly when he took over game planning and scripting. His style of game planning/design is exactly what Carson needs to have a successful run in this league. In a few years that draft capital the Colts gave up will look to be a bargain. 

[Restored]

16 hours ago, Nesjan3 said:

Well we didnt win the SB, we didnt win a playoff game, we didnt even win the division. This team is close that should be the goal...so yea in my eyes it wasnt a bad signing but it wasnt good either. Brady was the better option i think in most people eyes, Frank is the #1 reason Rivers was signed more than likely. 

Those may indeed be the goals but you say that like Rivers was the main reason why they didn’t happen.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Restored said:

Those may indeed be the goals but you say that like Rivers was the main reason why they didn’t happen.

I agree that is the way it came off. I really doubt with the options we had this past season that anyone could've did better than Rivers at QB. It is amazing that some think going 11-5 is easy and not only that we had Buffalo beat but some just look at it like we lost by 3 TD's. Brady was never coming here, Brady wanted to go to a team that had a lot WR weapons, our WR core and TE's aren't on par with the Bucs.

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, DeathByEagle said:

Eagles season ticket holder for over 25+ years,

 

Wishing all the Colts fans the best of luck in the up coming season. Im a Wentz and Frank supporter and will be following the Colts closely, hoping to see them bring back what they had in 2017 and land a ring together in Indy. 

 

You are getting a very good QB when he has a well oiled system in place. I always felt Frank was the key to that success in Philly when he took over game planning and scripting. His style of game planning/design is exactly what Carson needs to have a successful run in this league. In a few years that draft capital the Colts gave up will look to be a bargain. 

Well...the hope is that Reich can smooth out those mechanics from last seasonz

 

But Reich can’t fix the drop off in mobility after injuries. As a PHI fan...I know you have noticed that he doesn’t move like he used to. 

[shasta519]

8 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I agree that is the way it came off. I really doubt with the options we had this past season that anyone could've did better than Rivers at QB. It is amazing that some think going 11-5 is easy and not only that we had Buffalo beat but some just look at it like we lost by 3 TD's. Brady was never coming here, Brady wanted to go to a team that had a lot WR weapons, our WR core and TE's aren't on par with the Bucs.

Rivers played very well last season, given his physical limitations at this point. The only thing they could have really done differently is perhaps draft a guy like Love or Hurts. But there weren’t better options available outside of Brady...and I don’t think Brady wins it all with this team. 

 

And to be honest...even if I was all about this Wentz trade...I would still think there’s a very good chance he doesn’t out-perform Rivers (as a passer). Rivers was just pretty damn good last season.

And there’s a very real (probably even likely) chance for a decline from Rivers’ performance...even if Wentz improves sharply over last season. Because there is a huge amount of space between whatever happened with Wentz last season and how River performed. And you have to go all the way back to 2018 to find a time where Wentz was better.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

Rivers played very well last season, given his physical limitations at this point. The only thing they could have really done differently is perhaps draft a guy like Love or Hurts. But there weren’t better options available outside of Brady...and I don’t think Brady wins it all with this team. 

 

And to be honest...even if I was all about this Wentz trade...I would still think there’s a very good chance he doesn’t out-perform Rivers (as a passer). Rivers was just pretty damn good last season.

And there’s a very real (probably even likely) chance for a decline from Rivers’ performance...even if Wentz improves sharply over last season. Because there is a huge amount of space between whatever happened with Wentz last season and how River performed. And you have to go all the way back to 2018 to find a time where Wentz was better.

Great post, I hope Wentz pans out being a Colts fan but like I said the other day I am just not sure he will. Rivers wasn't great but he was good and with him I felt like we were going to beat Buffalo, it was close.

[Nesjan3]

38 minutes ago, Restored said:

Those may indeed be the goals but you say that like Rivers was the main reason why they didn’t happen.

Im just saying Frank has been given a lot of say on who is being signed up for the most important position on the team. Rivers ultimately didnt get us where we need to be, now if the Wentz trade flops as well, Frank is going to have to take some heat.

[2006Coltsbestever]

22 minutes ago, Nesjan3 said:

Im just saying Frank has been given a lot of say on who is being signed up for the most important position on the team. Rivers ultimately didnt get us where we need to be, now if the Wentz trade flops as well, Frank is going to have to take some heat.

The thing is who could've done better than Rivers did this past season. We went 11-5, barely lost to a redhot Buffalo team, and Rivers threw for over 4000 yards with only 11 INT's all season. I am not sold on Wentz so I hear you there.

[shasta519]

20 minutes ago, Nesjan3 said:

Im just saying Frank has been given a lot of say on who is being signed up for the most important position on the team. Rivers ultimately didnt get us where we need to be, now if the Wentz trade flops as well, Frank is going to have to take some heat.

Not just heat...he likely has to go. I even really like Reich...but if Wentz flops...I think he has to go and they need a fresh set of eyes on the QB position.

That sounds really harsh...but Reich gets a tremendous of credit for the work he has done with QBs...so he should be equally liable if they don’t perform. 
 

And the NFL is a cutthroat business...HCs don’t get multiple cracks at the QB position long-term. And I would argue that Reich has already been given the leeway to make a lot of QB choices already. 

 

First, after Luck retired, he emphatically stated that JB was the “man” and “answer.” You can chalk that up to confidence-building and it was a bad situation, but there is no way they give him that contract without Reich saying that he thinks JB could be the future. Blame the scenario...but Reich certainly had influence and certainly believed in JB (or he was just lying). 
 

Second, last offseason he chose Rivers. This was the right move at the time after the JB season...because they needed a vet upgrade to compete and take a step forward. So I don’t fault Reich for that...but it was known at the time that Rivers was likely a one-year thing (two at most) and then the only move they made was targeting Eason, who could wind up being a QB3 in his 2nd season. Ballard doesn’t draft Eason without Reich...so while the investment is small...it’s still another choice.

 

Third, he picks Wentz this offseason. At this point, the Colts are not in any type of situation that might “force” them to make this particular decision. This is all Reich...as there is no way Ballard would trade draft assets and take on that contract without a strong assurance from Reich that he can not only fix Wentz, but that the Colts can win big with him. 

 

And maybe they can. But if Wentz flops, the trade is basically a small disaster in that they gave away picks and paid Wentz. Someone has to answer for that...obviously. And letting go of a Press Taylor wouldn’t be a sufficient response. We also know that Ballard isn’t going anywhere any time soon.
 

But I don’t think Wentz will flop. But he doesn’t even have to flop...he could just not be a very good QB. And the Colts don’t take the next step and are out a 1st rounder next year.

 

What happens then? Does Ballard trust that running it back with Wentz will be different? Does he trust Reich if they look to go in another direction at QB that offseason? I honestly don’t know...but I can see why he wouldn’t. 
 

 

 

 

[Nesjan3]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

The thing is who could've done better than Rivers did this past season. We went 11-5, barely lost to a redhot Buffalo team, and Rivers threw for over 4000 yards with only 11 INT's all season. I am not sold on Wentz so I hear you there.

As much as some people hate to acknowledge it or refuse to believe its true i think there was some genuine and mutual interest between Irsay/Ballard and Brady. Ultimately going with Rivers though because of the Reich connection and i believe he lobbied for Rivers.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Nesjan3 said:

As much as some people hate to acknowledge it or refuse to believe its true i think there was some genuine and mutual interest between Irsay/Ballard and Brady. Ultimately going with Rivers though because of the Reich connection and i believe he lobbied for Rivers.

 

People are making this an issue NOW because of Brady just winning his 7t Super Bowl.   But a year ago,  nobody thought he still had that in him.   He was coming off his two poorest season's in a row....   he started to look like a 40-something player and that Father Time had caught up with him.    Now Brady looks great.   Now.    The benefit of hindsight is always helpful.

[life long]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

People are making this an issue NOW because of Brady just winning his 7t Super Bowl.   But a year ago,  nobody thought he still had that in him.   He was coming off his two poorest season's in a row....   he started to look like a 40-something player and that Father Time had caught up with him.    Now Brady looks great.   Now.    The benefit of hindsight is always helpful.

I wouldn't say "nobody". Obviously the Bucs believed and went all in simultaneously. 

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, life long said:

I wouldn't say "nobody". Obviously the Bucs believed and went all in simultaneously. 

Other than Brady,   how did they go all in?

[life long]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

Other than Brady,   how did they go all in?

Lol many ways. Not to be rude do you really want a list?

[jvan1973]

Just now, life long said:

Lol many ways. Not to be rude do you really want a list?

Yes,   what marquee free agents did they bring in this past season other than Brady

[life long]

14 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Yes,   what marquee free agents did they bring in this past season other than Brady

Well by stating the only way to be considered all in is to sign over priced free agents, they didn't do much of that. They did however add several players in positions of strength. A.B. on a potent receiving corp. Gronk when they were already solid at TE with Howard and Brate. Fournette. Taking the OT 1st Rd. Mainly my point of them going all in was more from a scheme and culture aspect. They definitely pandered to Brady in scheme, culture, and at least the guise of adding players to surround Brady with talent. 

[life long]

11 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Yes,   what marquee free agents did they bring in this past season other than Brady

https://www.nfl.com/news/sidelines/sink-or-swim-bucs-tampa-are-all-in-with-tom-brady

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Not just heat...he likely has to go. I even really like Reich...but if Wentz flops...I think he has to go and they need a fresh set of eyes on the QB position.

That sounds really harsh...but Reich gets a tremendous of credit for the work he has done with QBs...so he should be equally liable if they don’t perform. 
 

And the NFL is a cutthroat business...HCs don’t get multiple cracks at the QB position long-term. And I would argue that Reich has already been given the leeway to make a lot of QB choices already. 

 

First, after Luck retired, he emphatically stated that JB was the “man” and “answer.” You can chalk that up to confidence-building and it was a bad situation, but there is no way they give him that contract without Reich saying that he thinks JB could be the future. Blame the scenario...but Reich certainly had influence and certainly believed in JB (or he was just lying). 
 

Second, last offseason he chose Rivers. This was the right move at the time after the JB season...because they needed a vet upgrade to compete and take a step forward. So I don’t fault Reich for that...but it was known at the time that Rivers was likely a one-year thing (two at most) and then the only move they made was targeting Eason, who could wind up being a QB3 in his 2nd season. Ballard doesn’t draft Eason without Reich...so while the investment is small...it’s still another choice.

 

Third, he picks Wentz this offseason. At this point, the Colts are not in any type of situation that might “force” them to make this particular decision. This is all Reich...as there is no way Ballard would trade draft assets and take on that contract without a strong assurance from Reich that he can not only fix Wentz, but that the Colts can win big with him. 

 

And maybe they can. But if Wentz flops, the trade is basically a small disaster in that they gave away picks and paid Wentz. Someone has to answer for that...obviously. And letting go of a Press Taylor wouldn’t be a sufficient response. We also know that Ballard isn’t going anywhere any time soon.
 

But I don’t think Wentz will flop. But he doesn’t even have to flop...he could just not be a very good QB. And the Colts don’t take the next step and are out a 1st rounder next year.

 

What happens then? Does Ballard trust that running it back with Wentz will be different? Does he trust Reich if they look to go in another direction at QB that offseason? I honestly don’t know...but I can see why he wouldn’t. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

I've highlighted three paragraphs....    I'll take them one at a time.

 

First....    I have no idea why you felt the need to put "man" and "answer" in quotes.    You're the first poster I've seen make this claim.    But saying JB was the man was simply saying, we're not trading for anyone else.   He's our guy,  he's our man and he's our quarterback.  To the team and the fan base.   Period.    As to "answer".    I seriously doubt this was said as typically that implies being the long term solution.   And nobody said or implied that.    JB was going to be our guy for two years.   And that's it.  Unless he showed much more.   So, the word answer doesn't seem to fit the circumstances of August of '19.    Your comment about no way Ballard gives him that contract without Reich saying he could be the future is an example of YOU trying to put all the responsibility on Frank, who is not as popular as Ballard,  and zero on Ballard who is hugely popular here with most.    This is a problem.   They work together.   They share a vision.   Ballard is not Reich's yes-man.   He doesn't take orders from Frank.    Reich doesn't say what he want and Balard doesn't say "yes, Frank, whatever you say, Frank".    And that's almost what you're implying.   It's all on Frank, and NOTHING on Ballard.   Ballard was not going to have JB play the 2019 making $2 Mill a year.    That's the exact wrong message to send to your team.   He upgraded to a mid-level QB salary as a sign of respect to JB.   And to show the team that he and Frank have faith in JB.

 

Second....   last season,  THEY chose Rivers.   Here you go again, selling the "it's all on Frank" line.    And you know what,  we got a great year from Rivers.   Frank Reich has nothing to apologize for.    There's nothing and nobody to blame.   Period.  No one is promised anything,  and we got as good a year as we could hope for from Rivers, all things considered.   (The loss of Campbell, Mack, the poor season from TYH,  the TE's being injured.)    And then you wrote that the "only" move they took in the draft was getting Eason.    As if that's a BAD THING?!?    Guess what,  the Colts were just judged as the #1 draft class of 2020, and you're complaining about not taking a QB early.    And only going for Eason.   This is as weak a take as can be. You're trying to turn nothing into something.   A positive into a negative.   This is part of your anti-Frank rant...

 

Third....     We picked Wentz?    Really?    We didn't FIRST go after Stafford?   This website spent roughly two weeks locked onto every Stafford/Colts rumor.   Was all that a waste?    We had no interest in Matthew Stafford?   We didn't go after him first?     We picked Wentz AFTER we lost out on MS.   Fixed it for you.   Your very next sentence:   "At this point, the Colts are not in any type of position to force them to make this particular decision."    Seriously?   Really?   What were our other options?   I'm stunned you wrote this.   Beyond stunned because the OPPOSITE is true.    This was the best of a mediocre set of possible options.    Guys like Ryan or Carr are reportedly not available.   Watson is not getting traded to the Colts.  Wilson is not available.   Prescott is too expensive.    So, what were our other options?    Who else?   Decisions have to be made.   They're plans to make.   The cost of doing business to have our QB for the next two years (maybe more)  is a 3 and a  probable 1.    I have no idea why this is being turned into yet another Frank gets what Frank wants and all Ballard can say is "Yes, Frank."    But it is....    it's all over this post.

[NewColtsFan]

30 minutes ago, life long said:

I wouldn't say "nobody". Obviously the Bucs believed and went all in simultaneously. 

 

Sorry....    I wasn't more clear.    By "nobody" I meant fans here....    Not talking about the NFL.

 

Not that there weren't fans here who wanted Brady --- there were.    But nobody was talking about signing Brady and we've got a shot at the Super Bowl.   It was sign Brady and we can get to the playoffs....   much like people said about Rivers.

[Superman]

3 hours ago, shasta519 said:

Not just heat...he likely has to go. I even really like Reich...but if Wentz flops...I think he has to go and they need a fresh set of eyes on the QB position.

That sounds really harsh...but Reich gets a tremendous of credit for the work he has done with QBs...so he should be equally liable if they don’t perform. 
 

And the NFL is a cutthroat business...HCs don’t get multiple cracks at the QB position long-term. And I would argue that Reich has already been given the leeway to make a lot of QB choices already. 

 

First, after Luck retired, he emphatically stated that JB was the “man” and “answer.” You can chalk that up to confidence-building and it was a bad situation, but there is no way they give him that contract without Reich saying that he thinks JB could be the future. Blame the scenario...but Reich certainly had influence and certainly believed in JB (or he was just lying). 
 

Second, last offseason he chose Rivers. This was the right move at the time after the JB season...because they needed a vet upgrade to compete and take a step forward. So I don’t fault Reich for that...but it was known at the time that Rivers was likely a one-year thing (two at most) and then the only move they made was targeting Eason, who could wind up being a QB3 in his 2nd season. Ballard doesn’t draft Eason without Reich...so while the investment is small...it’s still another choice.

 

Third, he picks Wentz this offseason. At this point, the Colts are not in any type of situation that might “force” them to make this particular decision. This is all Reich...as there is no way Ballard would trade draft assets and take on that contract without a strong assurance from Reich that he can not only fix Wentz, but that the Colts can win big with him. 

 

And maybe they can. But if Wentz flops, the trade is basically a small disaster in that they gave away picks and paid Wentz. Someone has to answer for that...obviously. And letting go of a Press Taylor wouldn’t be a sufficient response. We also know that Ballard isn’t going anywhere any time soon.
 

But I don’t think Wentz will flop. But he doesn’t even have to flop...he could just not be a very good QB. And the Colts don’t take the next step and are out a 1st rounder next year.

 

What happens then? Does Ballard trust that running it back with Wentz will be different? Does he trust Reich if they look to go in another direction at QB that offseason? I honestly don’t know...but I can see why he wouldn’t. 

 

Nah.

 

I agree that Reich will own the Wentz deal, whether good or bad. This acquisition happened because he wanted it to happen. He was all in on Wentz before the Eagles drafted him, he was one of the biggest influences on Wentz while he was there, and their connection is ultimately what brought Wentz to Indy. If it doesn't work, it will be a mark against Reich, and if it does work, it will be a credit to Reich. 

 

Reich inherited JB. He wasn't here when JB was acquired, and the decision to extend JB was a collaborative decision between ownership, front office, and coaching. Not Reich's call, and not a reflection of Reich. Once Luck retired, JB was the starter by default, so everyone was going to say that they believed in him. They didn't give him a five year deal, they extended him for one year, and gave him a raise. Propping up his endorsement of his new starter, two weeks before the season started, as an indication that he should be judged on JB's performance, is pretty far out there, IMO.

 

To the contrary, the fact that JB played significantly better under Reich in 2019 than he did in 2017 is a testament to Reich and his staff. They were thrown a curve ball at the 11th hour, and responded reasonably well, given JB's limitations. IMO, JB is a credit to Reich, not a strike against him. The fact that they moved on from JB after one year speaks to Reich's view of JB, as does the fact that they didn't turn back to JB for 2021.

 

I don't follow how the Rivers/Eason acquisitions are being pointed to as any kind of negative. They signed Rivers, and he did reasonably well here. They drafted Eason in the fourth round; there's been a lot of noise about Eason (and Chad Kelly) among fans, but nothing the team has done suggests that they drafted Eason for anything other than development. Any analysis of that move in premature, because none of us has even seen him play in the NFL. But using a 4th on a developmental QB isn't a strike against the coaching staff. It's not like they drafted him and then gave him the starting job on Reich's endorsement. I don't get this angle at all.

 

There are a lot of unknowns with Wentz on the Colts. If it goes poorly, sure, that goes against Reich. But the details are important. If Wentz is just terrible, then yeah, Ballard will be looking at Reich like 'this is the guy you had to have?' But what if Wentz gets hurt? That's on Reich? What if the OL falls apart, and the offense struggles because of it? 

 

Assuming that any failure with Wentz necessarily leads to Reich's dismissal is a step too far, for me. And tying Reich to previous QB moves and their outcome doesn't make sense to me, either.

[DougDew]

I don't think Reich's tenure here is tied to Wentz' success.  Either you think Frank is a good coach or not, and good with QBs or not.  Every QB "guru" is going to have his share of misses.  In fact, if Wentz cant cut it under Reich, it says more about Wentz than Frank, IMO.  I think Reich is fine unless he shows in the next two years that he is the problem, not just a failure with Wentz.

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Nah.

 

I agree that Reich will own the Wentz deal, whether good or bad. This acquisition happened because he wanted it to happen. He was all in on Wentz before the Eagles drafted him, he was one of the biggest influences on Wentz while he was there, and their connection is ultimately what brought Wentz to Indy. If it doesn't work, it will be a mark against Reich, and if it does work, it will be a credit to Reich. 

Agreed. My only question is how big of mark, if things go bad, will it be. We'll never know what the dynamics were in the room when Ballard and Reich were mulling things over about the acquisition, but given Ballard's line in the sand, one has to think Reich was the primary driver.

 

What's your opinion on Reich's status if Wentz turns out to a disastrous situation over the next two years? In other words, for baseline purposes, the next two years are Wentz heavy, and neither are playoff years.

 

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

Reich inherited JB. He wasn't here when JB was acquired, and the decision to extend JB was a collaborative decision between ownership, front office, and coaching. Not Reich's call, and not a reflection of Reich. Once Luck retired, JB was the starter by default, so everyone was going to say that they believed in him. They didn't give him a five year deal, they extended him for one year, and gave him a raise. Propping up his endorsement of his new starter, two weeks before the season started, as an indication that he should be judged on JB's performance, is pretty far out there, IMO.

Yup. Not much you can do with the timing. And everyone has to coach speak at that point. I never cared for the raise and extension though while he was still under contract. I'm not sure who pushed that though between CB and FR. Ultimately though, Ballard had to sign off. Spilt milk though, but I do wonder.

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

To the contrary, the fact that JB played significantly better under Reich in 2019 than he did in 2017 is a testament to Reich and his staff. They were thrown a curve ball at the 11th hour, and responded reasonably well, given JB's limitations. IMO, JB is a credit to Reich, not a strike against him. The fact that they moved on from JB after one year speaks to Reich's view of JB, as does the fact that they didn't turn back to JB for 2021.

We have different views here. I'll start with the last bolded (Reich's view of JB). One could easily also say that Ballard was a driver to move away from JB after things didn't quite materialize, or that Rivers availability just was more attractive to both Ballard and Reich, given his ties to Reich, and made the decision pretty easy. My personal opinion is Ballard knew there would not be a step forward with JB so he wasn't really in the plans to start, and the Rivers thing was just a no brainer (not that Reich deserves a feather).

 

As far as JB playing better, I think "significantly" is too strong of word. Yes, he was more efficient, but like with the other debate we are having, I think it can be chalked up to scheme and surrounding team, and not really the brilliance of Reich. That stats aren't all that much better, and one could say that with the scheme change, improved surrounding talent, and asking him to do less, should have equated to bigger gains in his performance. Instead, same yards and YPG, similar INT% and Y/A, just a bump in PR and QBR. 

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I don't follow how the Rivers/Eason acquisitions are being pointed to as any kind of negative. They signed Rivers, and he did reasonably well here. They drafted Eason in the fourth round; there's been a lot of noise about Eason (and Chad Kelly) among fans, but nothing the team has done suggests that they drafted Eason for anything other than development. Any analysis of that move in premature, because none of us has even seen him play in the NFL. But using a 4th on a developmental QB isn't a strike against the coaching staff. It's not like they drafted him and then gave him the starting job on Reich's endorsement. I don't get this angle at all.

Agreed. If anything, Eason might have been a Ballard want as a mid round gamble. It's reasonable to think he'd be at minimum a serviceable backup, and that's a fair use of a 4th with good value. Rivers was a good call IMO. 

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

There are a lot of unknowns with Wentz on the Colts. If it goes poorly, sure, that goes against Reich. But the details are important. If Wentz is just terrible, then yeah, Ballard will be looking at Reich like 'this is the guy you had to have?' But what if Wentz gets hurt? That's on Reich? What if the OL falls apart, and the offense struggles because of it? 

 

Assuming that any failure with Wentz necessarily leads to Reich's dismissal is a step too far, for me. And tying Reich to previous QB moves and their outcome doesn't make sense to me, either.

Agreed. A lot of context would be considered. IMO, health issues would not put a mark on Reich. If anything, that falls on Ballard. As it pertains to Reich, it's just about development/fix/performance, and of course his performance in other areas relating to HC.

 

Overall, I'm sure Ballard, like any good CEO or boss, has his list of "good" and "bad" for all his employees, including Reich. And I'm sure he's also pretty clear in terms of expectations and feedback. I do fear though that Reich might be, or get, to attached to Wentz, and potentially hold on too long if things go south. And that could be an area that hurts FR, or creates rift between coach and GM. That's of course all down the road. I'm just hoping CW balls out, and we never have to go down that road.

[EastStreet]

33 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I don't think Reich's tenure here is tied to Wentz' success.  Either you think Frank is a good coach or not, and good with QBs or not.  Every QB "guru" is going to have his share of misses.  In fact, if Wentz cant cut it under Reich, it says more about Wentz than Frank, IMO.  I think Reich is fine unless he shows in the next two years that he is the problem, not just a failure with Wentz.

The bolded though is the point. Wentz's success, or lack of, impacts the "think".

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

What's your opinion on Reich's status if Wentz turns out to a disastrous situation over the next two years? In other words, for baseline purposes, the next two years are Wentz heavy, and neither are playoff years.

 

Still dependent on context, right? If the OL falls apart, or the defense is awful, and we're struggling to win 9 or 10 games and missing the playoffs, that might not having much to do with Wentz. He could still be playing good football. There was a three or four year stretch where the Saints couldn't make the playoffs, even with Brees throwing for 5,000 yards every season. Let's say the 2021 defense is way behind the offense, I think Eberflus gets fired before anyone even discusses Reich's status.

 

Now, if Wentz is toast, and Reich's staff isn't able to help him be effective, Reich might be on thin ice. Lots of IFs to consider. Kind of makes me wonder why we even go down this path, since we can't possibly navigate all the unknowns. Of course, it's February on an NFL message board, so I get it.

 

Quote

We have different views here. I'll start with the last bolded (Reich's view of JB). One could easily also say that Ballard was a driver to move away from JB after things didn't quite materialize, or that Rivers availability just was more attractive to both Ballard and Reich, given his ties to Reich, and made the decision pretty easy. My personal opinion is Ballard knew there would not be a step forward with JB so he wasn't really in the plans to start, and the Rivers thing was just a no brainer (not that Reich deserves a feather).

 

Either way it happened, Reich wasn't out there banging the table for JB to be the starter. Nor was his staff. Reich only spoke of JB in a complimentary fashion, but everyone stopped short of saying 'we want JB to be the starter next season.' Even Reich's play calling throughout 2019 showed what he thought of JB. Then Ballard, Reich, Sirianni and I think Brady described their ideal starting QB, and things like accuracy, anticipation, play making, etc., were emphasized, all the things JB doesn't do well.

 

Ballard may have been driving the bus, but Reich and his staff were along for the ride with no hesitation.

 

Rivers being available made it easier to make the decision to move on, and I guess we can't know what might have happened otherwise. But it appeared to me that the staff wasn't all that excited about running it back with JB.

 

And I don't think the Rivers situation played out so well that anyone deserves a feather in their cap. I mean, it was fine, they salvaged some kind of a respectable season out of it, but it wasn't a home run that everyone should be celebrating. It was definitely better than starting JB, though.

 

Quote

As far as JB playing better, I think "significantly" is too strong of word. Yes, he was more efficient, but like with the other debate we are having, I think it can be chalked up to scheme and surrounding team, and not really the brilliance of Reich. That stats aren't all that much better, and one could say that with the scheme change, improved surrounding talent, and asking him to do less, should have equated to bigger gains in his performance. Instead, same yards and YPG, similar INT% and Y/A, just a bump in PR and QBR. 

 

I can only have one semantics driven debate with you per month... I'm not preaching Reich's brilliance, just saying that JB was better in 2019 than he was in 2017. Again, not sure that's debatable. I think JB was awful in 2017, and a lot of that is circumstantial, and he deserves a lot of credit for performing at all under those circumstances, and I've always admired his resolve for that season. But he didn't play QB well.

 

And he kind of fell apart in 2019. Part of it is the injury, but I think a big part is just that he's not good enough to sustain a winning level of play for more than a few weeks. I said it before the injury, as well.

 

But when I say he played significantly better, I mean not only from a statistical standpoint (and his splits pre/post injury are pretty dramatic), but mostly from a fundamental standpoint. His footwork, mechanics, not throwing balls into the dirt, not leaving the pocket and running into pass rushers, etc. In 2017, he was really bad in a lot of those areas. In 2019, especially before injury, I thought he was a strong average, maybe slightly above average, which I think is how I described his play when we were 5-2. I don't think we'll see a better version of JB at any point over his career than we saw in the first half of 2019, because I don't think he's talented enough to play better than that.

 

Quote

I do fear though that Reich might be, or get, to attached to Wentz, and potentially hold on too long if things go south. 

 

I worry about being 5-5, and there's no obvious strategy to pursue because Wentz is not the problem, but also not exactly performing like a stud. In reality, if not for the conditional pick, you roll with QB1. But this conditional pick is going to be a factor in a lot of people's minds, even if it really shouldn't.

 

 

[Beardog]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I don't think Reich's tenure here is tied to Wentz' success.  Either you think Frank is a good coach or not, and good with QBs or not.  Every QB "guru" is going to have his share of misses.  In fact, if Wentz cant cut it under Reich, it says more about Wentz than Frank, IMO.  I think Reich is fine unless he shows in the next two years that he is the problem, not just a failure with Wentz.

I’d agree with this.  I’ve not followed Wentz as much as Eagles fans but he really lost the confidence in his teammates last year.  Reading about a lot of frustration from almost an entitlement attitude as opposed to the way everyone else had to compete and be held accountable.  Football is a team and chemistry sport and he’s gonna have to win over his new teammates IMO.  He’s got tons of talent and pulling for him but it’s always bothered me the fact Eagles teammates were so on Foles camp.  
 

Bottomline he’s expected to get to the playoffs and win.

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Still dependent on context, right? If the OL falls apart, or the defense is awful, and we're struggling to win 9 or 10 games and missing the playoffs, that might not having much to do with Wentz. He could still be playing good football. There was a three or four year stretch where the Saints couldn't make the playoffs, even with Brees throwing for 5,000 yards every season. Let's say the 2021 defense is way behind the offense, I think Eberflus gets fired before anyone even discusses Reich's status.

 

Now, if Wentz is toast, and Reich's staff isn't able to help him be effective, Reich might be on thin ice. Lots of IFs to consider. Kind of makes me wonder why we even go down this path, since we can't possibly navigate all the unknowns. Of course, it's February on an NFL message board, so I get it.

I'm speaking purely on Wentz, and assumes the surrounding team doesn't fall apart.

And yes, it's February. I just was curious to see if you thought Frank was untouchable should Wentz specifically not work out.

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

And I don't think the Rivers situation played out so well that anyone deserves a feather in their cap. I mean, it was fine, they salvaged some kind of a respectable season out of it, but it wasn't a home run that everyone should be celebrating. It was definitely better than starting JB, though.

I think Rivers was the best option available, was low risk, etc.. Not necessarily feather worthy, but still a sold move. I'm not sure if there was a better option all things considered. 

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

I can only have one semantics driven debate with you per month... I'm not preaching Reich's brilliance, just saying that JB was better in 2019 than he was in 2017. Again, not sure that's debatable. I think JB was awful in 2017, and a lot of that is circumstantial, and he deserves a lot of credit for performing at all under those circumstances, and I've always admired his resolve for that season. But he didn't play QB well.

 

And he kind of fell apart in 2019. Part of it is the injury, but I think a big part is just that he's not good enough to sustain a winning level of play for more than a few weeks. I said it before the injury, as well.

 

But when I say he played significantly better, I mean not only from a statistical standpoint (and his splits pre/post injury are pretty dramatic), but mostly from a fundamental standpoint. His footwork, mechanics, not throwing balls into the dirt, not leaving the pocket and running into pass rushers, etc. In 2017, he was really bad in a lot of those areas. In 2019, especially before injury, I thought he was a strong average, maybe slightly above average, which I think is how I described his play when we were 5-2. I don't think we'll see a better version of JB at any point over his career than we saw in the first half of 2019, because I don't think he's talented enough to play better than that.

JB has very bad QBR games early pre-injury, so in total context, I don't see it as a tale of two situations. 4 sub 50, and 2 sub 40 (which is just plain bad). I think he was good against bad pass Ds at times, and inconsistent overall. We can disagree, but I chalk most of his improved "efficiency" up to simply conservative and limited scheme. That's not really development or personal improvement in my eyes. Hard to compare the seasons given the situations and full context. 

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

I worry about being 5-5, and there's no obvious strategy to pursue because Wentz is not the problem, but also not exactly performing like a stud. In reality, if not for the conditional pick, you roll with QB1. But this conditional pick is going to be a factor in a lot of people's minds, even if it really shouldn't.

I think it's a valid factor in the case you describe. At .500 and meh, that equates to mediocre draft position and without a 1st, which would almost guarantee 2 years of mediocrity, and then another middle to late draft pick in 2023.

[JoeThornburg]

My Aunt and Uncle are Indianapolis natives and long time season ticket holders (until COVID), so for me the Colts are a sentimental favorite (unless they play Pittsburgh). The family are cautiously optimistic about this move.

I had some concerns as did many others. I think everyone here is aware of the talking points surrounding Wentz by now. Personally I think Ballard & Co. did a great job holding their ground on this move. Any time you make a major move like this it is not without risk. They did not give up too much to get the deal done, which was something I was worried about happening after Stafford went off the board. If Wentz can return to 2017 form they will have gotten a very reasonable cost benefit swap. QB is inarguably the most difficult position to get right, but this was a well thought out transaction. I'm pulling for Indianapolis and think they could very well be a Super Bowl contender if they handle the rest of the offseason with the same kind of aplomb. 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

The bolded though is the point. Wentz's success, or lack of, impacts the "think".

I get your point.  I'm just not agreeing with it, and I normally agree with what you say a lot. 

 

I simply don't think Reich's job will be tied to Wentz' performance, even if Reich was the main fist pounding the table for him.  Sure, a Wentz failure will accrue negative points towards Frank if you're scoring at home, but I think Frank's total performance will be evaluated.

 

What if Wentz fails but Eason develops nicely?  Which could be one of many scenarios.

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I get your point.  I'm just not agreeing with it, and I normally agree with what you say a lot. 

 

I simply don't think Reich's job will be tied to Wentz' performance, even if Reich was the main fist pounding the table for him.  Sure, a Wentz failure will accrue negative points towards Frank if you're scoring at home, but I think Frank's total performance will be evaluated.

 

What if Wentz fails but Eason develops nicely?  Which could be one of many scenarios.

I don't think it necessarily has to be tied to Wentz's success, or failure at all. It's more how he would handle the potential failure. 

 

Off topic, but along the same lines, it really all depends on how Ballard (and even Irsay) view and grade the HC. Obviously even on the board, many view Reich with different lenses. We simply don't know what lens Ballard looks through. For instance, we know that Reich was not Ballard's first choice. Probably not in his top 3 or 5. He was the guy left, when the Colts were left at the alter.

 

So with that in mind, what was Frank's starting point with Ballard. Has Frank improved or stayed status quo in Ballard's eyes in the last 3 years? How much did Ballard bye into Frank's scheme to start with? How does Ballard view all the simple attributes like people management, game plan, play calling, personnel usage and development. We all have our different views on all those facets, and unfortunately we'll never know how CB (and perhaps Irsay) view them.

[Stephen]

8 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

The thing is who could've done better than Rivers did this past season. We went 11-5, barely lost to a redhot Buffalo team, and Rivers threw for over 4000 yards with only 11 INT's all season. I am not sold on Wentz so I hear you there.

I think wentz will thriw more tds than rivers

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I think wentz will thriw more tds than rivers

Probably, Rivers had 24 which is average but it depends on how many rushing TD's we get. I would say Wentz is good for 30 TD's if he stays healthy so I agree.

[Superman]

19 hours ago, EastStreet said:

And yes, it's February. I just was curious to see if you thought Frank was untouchable should Wentz specifically not work out.

 

Untouchable, no. But it's hard to project Reich being dismissed after 2021, short of a dramatic implosion.

 

19 hours ago, EastStreet said:

JB has very bad QBR games early pre-injury, so in total context, I don't see it as a tale of two situations. 4 sub 50, and 2 sub 40 (which is just plain bad). I think he was good against bad pass Ds at times, and inconsistent overall. We can disagree, but I chalk most of his improved "efficiency" up to simply conservative and limited scheme. That's not really development or personal improvement in my eyes. Hard to compare the seasons given the situations and full context. 

 

Yeah, we disagree.

[coming on strong]

23 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Yes,   what marquee free agents did they bring in this past season other than Brady

bucs brought in tons of free agents with brady .  suh who is elite defesinve tackle  barrett who is elite edge rusher david who is elite linebacker   brown hall of fame wr    gronk  .   plus tons of good depth guys with wit plus adding high draft picks on offensive line with joe haeg

[Thebrashandthebold]

21 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Probably, Rivers had 24 which is average but it depends on how many rushing TD's we get. I would say Wentz is good for 30 TD's if he stays healthy so I agree.

That is an amazing statement. Wentz only got to 30 TDs once and that was several years ago. I would take the under 30 if I was betting on it. He is frail and has lost many games to injuries. I hope he works out but I would think if he was healthy I would expect 3,000 passing yards and 21 to 25 TDs. He isn't throwing to a great set of receivers.